transsexuals and words

[transcendMental]

I just did a little experiment.

In these forums, people have used the words "tranny" and "shemale" to refer to transsexuals or to transgender people. When transsexuals on the site complain that these words are offensive or inappropriate, akin to using "bitch", "slut", or "whore" to refer to a woman, we're told we're being too sensitive or PC or whatever.

I wanted to check my PC bearings, so I Googled the four words "transsexual", "transgender", "tranny", and "shemale", and looked at what came up on the first page of results. The outcome is worth considering.

For both "transsexual" and "transgender", the whole first page of results was full of technical information about transsexualism, or about transgender people.

For "tranny", the first link on the first page was technical, but the 2nd link, and the majority of links on that first page were for pornography.

For "shemale", every single link on the first page of results was for porn. You don't get that much pornography if you Google "bitch", "slut", or "whore".

Considering that Google is a pretty shrewd judge of how people associate words, I would say that we're not being overly sensitive or PC. If we are, then women who take offense at being called bitches, sluts, or whores are definitely out of line.

[Long Duck Dong]

I just did a little experiment.

In these forums, people have used the words "tranny" and "shemale" to refer to transsexuals or to transgender people. When transsexuals on the site complain that these words are offensive or inappropriate, akin to using "bitch", "slut", or "whore" to refer to a woman, we're told we're being too sensitive or PC or whatever.

I wanted to check my PC bearings, so I Googled the four words "transsexual", "transgender", "tranny", and "shemale", and looked at what came up on the first page of results. The outcome is worth considering.

For both "transsexual" and "transgender", the whole first page of results was full of technical information about transsexualism, or about transgender people.

For "tranny", the first link on the first page was technical, but the 2nd link, and the majority of links on that first page were for pornography.

For "shemale", every single link on the first page of results was for porn. You don't get that much pornography if you Google "bitch", "slut", or "whore".

Considering that Google is a pretty shrewd judge of how people associate words, I would say that we're not being overly sensitive or PC. If we are, then women who take offense at being called bitches, sluts, or whores are definitely out of line.

the ability to be offended far exceeds the ability to offend......

I have been shot down in flames in this site for refering to my friends as the tranny grannies.....and how its offensive to trans people...... never mind the fact its the term my trans friends refer to themselves as.....

I then got told that my friends must have low self esteem and no respect for themselves if they use a name like that.....

so that pretty much ended my support for trans or trans related issues in this site.....and i stated as much.......

if trans want to be offended at every lil thing... that is their choice..... but if you look thru the forum over th last 4 years, you will see a big shift in trans related topics, from the discussing of relationships with trans and trans related issues within the lgbt community.... to just I wanna fuck shemales and *woe are the trans *.....

that is the price that has been paid by the trans community in the site..... people tried not to be offensive, when refering to trans aspects, such as trans gender / trans sexuals, she males, etc etc..... but it have been made very clear to people in the site, you may not refer to some trans people by the terms they themselves use......

so.... it is getting to the point that a lot of pro trans / trans supporters / she male lovers simply avoid any trans related threads or just ignore the trans in the site......

I really feel for the trans people that are not taking offensive at everything and every lil issue, as many people will not talk to them in the forums now, for fear of being drawn and quartered for not trying to be offensive

[Robinium]

the ability to be offended far exceeds the ability to offend......

I have been shot down in flames in this site for refering to my friends as the tranny grannies.....and how its offensive to trans people...... never mind the fact its the term my trans friends refer to themselves as.....

I then got told that my friends must have low self esteem and no respect for themselves if they use a name like that.....

"Tranny" is a word a bit like "nigger", or, in Germany, "Schwuchtel" for a gay guy. Some members of the community use it for themselves jokingly and then it's not meant as a slur, but if someone else uses it, it's considered a slur. I think you would not call anyone here "nigger" just because some black rap singers use the word in their songs...

Edit: wow, I was curious to see if "nigger" gets filtered out by the forum software. It passes. Gonna try this with other slurs some day :-D

[Long Duck Dong]

"Tranny" is a word a bit like "nigger", or, in Germany, "Schwuchtel" for a gay guy. Some members of the community use it for themselves jokingly and then it's not meant as a slur, but if someone else uses it, it's considered a slur. I think you would not call anyone here "nigger" just because some black rap singers use the word in their songs...

Edit: wow, I was curious to see if "nigger" gets filtered out by the forum software. It passes. Gonna try this with other slurs some day :-D

I am aware of that....... but we live in a day and age of us getting offended by remarks or labels not aimed at us, and we take it as a personal insult or as offensive cos we have a issue with it.....

the unfortunate part about it, is while people may play the * educate others * card.... what is happening is that the terms of speech are being dictated by others...... what does amuse me, is many of the people that do it, are us citizens, the land of * free speech *

I have always been a person that is curious about the difference between the people that see a label or remark and take it personally and get offended by it, then tell others what they may or may not say, but flip their lids over infringement of their own rights to freedom of expression..... and the people that will shrug and say, yes it can be offensive but is it worth getting offended by a remark or label not directed at me......

[tenni]

Hi transcendMental

I think that you raise an interesting and a valid conflict. Now, as I understand this issue, we are really discussing a difference between bisexual csimales and people who are experiencing gender issues.

From my perspective, the term "shemale" is a term used primarily by csimale bisexuals and is porn sexual fantasy related. Now, in a slightly broader sense it is a term used by csimen perhaps both hetero and bi. I am inclined to think that hetero csimen may not have any fantasy about "shemales" but I really don't know or have any evidence other than my suspicions. At any rate, it is probably not a fantasy that csimen would discuss with their hetero buddies. It may be a sexual fantasy by csimen who are just beginning to explore their bisexuality but I suspect that some keep the fantasy. I know of only a few bisexual csimen who have actually been with people that they called "shemale" rather than transexual. I know that is what they referred to them as and nothing else. These csimen want a functioning penis and tits together in one person. From what transexual females write this is not them.

"Transexual" is a more scientific based term. As I understand it, this word is more acceptable and less offensive than the word "hermaphrodite" to those people who actually are dealing with gender. "Shemale" is a word used by men who are more than not csimales with an interest in bisexuality and no interest in gender issues. They identify with their birth gender.

Generally, I would agree with you that I prefer to use a term for a group that the group itself prefers.
From what you and Marie write as well as a few others, the term "shemale" is offensive to you. So, I see the conflict as existing between csimale bisexuals and their sexual fantasy versus your identity issues. I'm a bit torn and would prefer to align myself with transexuals who do not want the term "shemale" used. On the other hand, I also want to respect my fellow csimale bisexuals who enjoy a sexual fantasy of wanting both male and female sexual organs within one person. (This is not me personally though as I do not have this sexual fantasy or reality desire at all)

I see this as primarily a site for bisexuals and not transgendered people though. I know that some have the mantra that all are welcome etc. but in reality I would go with that this site is for bisexuals and not gender issues. In other words, csimen should be able to discuss their sexual fantasy of a "shemale" just as they are permitted to discuss any other sexual fantasy.

It confuses me a bit more though when I read that some are writing about fantasizing about actually being the opposite gender and see themselves as bisexuals. Now, from the one thread recently this is from a male bisexual who wonders if others actually fantasize about being female. (This is not me nor do I identify as a csibisexual man with such a fantasy)

I also do not see or understand the transexuals' perspective who state that they are bisexual. I do not read enough about how csimales are similar or different from say a transexualman who sees himself as bisexual. I just do not read almost anything about what I consider bisexual issues from transexuals. What I read about is gender issues and not bisexual issues. We (csimales) seem to be different. Our sexual fantasies may be different. I don't know as I do not read from bisexual transgendered people enough about their actual bisexual issues or sexual fantasies. I read gender issues. I think that we may be rather different "fish"...lol but I'm just wondering.

So, should csimen who have sexual fantasies about "shemales" not be permitted to discuss them because they may offend non csi people on a bisexual site? I really do not know but it does seem like a form of censorship request to be placed on csimale bisexuality discussions. "Shemale" has been proven by you to be a sexual fantasy by primarily csibisexual males and perhaps not really connected to "true" transexuals.

[darkeyes]

Sticks and stones will break my bones, but names will never hurt me..

..but they do don't they.. hurt many people.. especially names which are used by so called responsible adults to inflict pain on those they may hate or have just decided to give a hard time.. and like children, those responsible adults once having found the weak spot carry on until things get out of hand.. often with tragic results.. whether or not the names are in any way accurate or even aimed at us..

[Robinium]

I think the most sensible approach would be to use "shemale" for the porn + maybe sexual phantasies, and "transsexual" for the other topics.

Otherwise I'm also surprised about the lots of transsexual topics being posted on this forum as depending on the subject, it's somewhat off-topic. I don't open such threads (or rarely) but just can't resist to write in them once they pop up.

[DuckiesDarling]

Sticks and stones will break my bones, but names will never hurt me..

..but they do don't they.. hurt many people.. especially names which are used by so called responsible adults to inflict pain on those they may hate or have just decided to give a hard time.. and like children, those responsible adults once having found the weak spot carry on until things get out of hand.. often with tragic results.. whether or not the names are in any way accurate or even aimed at us..

You mean like "lesser mortals"?

[DuckiesDarling]

I just did a little experiment.

In these forums, people have used the words "tranny" and "shemale" to refer to transsexuals or to transgender people. When transsexuals on the site complain that these words are offensive or inappropriate, akin to using "bitch", "slut", or "whore" to refer to a woman, we're told we're being too sensitive or PC or whatever.

I wanted to check my PC bearings, so I Googled the four words "transsexual", "transgender", "tranny", and "shemale", and looked at what came up on the first page of results. The outcome is worth considering.

For both "transsexual" and "transgender", the whole first page of results was full of technical information about transsexualism, or about transgender people.

For "tranny", the first link on the first page was technical, but the 2nd link, and the majority of links on that first page were for pornography.

For "shemale", every single link on the first page of results was for porn. You don't get that much pornography if you Google "bitch", "slut", or "whore".

Considering that Google is a pretty shrewd judge of how people associate words, I would say that we're not being overly sensitive or PC. If we are, then women who take offense at being called bitches, sluts, or whores are definitely out of line.

Interesting post, but in the most part people that have posted on here regarding "shemales" were posting about them as part of a porn that sparked a fantasy.

I don't think anyone means any disrespect but trying to be PC in such a non PC world is difficult at best, impossible at the worst. It doesn't matter what you say or what you refer to it as, I can guarantee the simple fact of saying something will offend someone somewhere.

[Robinium]

I can guarantee the simple fact of saying something will offend someone somewhere.

What you are saying here is offensive to me!

[DuckiesDarling]

What you are saying here is offensive to me!

Hands you the paddle, go for it

[tenni]

"Words" and csimen

I personally love the term "lesser mortals" but only because darkeyes uses it in a non offensive manner to me. I think that it is hilarious in the context that she uses it. I think that she may have used it in reference to her previous past sexual encounters with "we" csimen. It didn't really come across as derrogatory to csimen but that may be due to her writing style.


If another woman (or darkeyes) used it in a degrading manner I would be screaming loudly about the term. I will admit that I wondered about the word and if I should be offended the first time that I read it used by her. Actually, if I recall clearly enough, I wasn't sure if it referred to csimen or who it referred to..lol I had never heard it before and so her context and writing style made it seem funny to me.

The word "shemale" however is not being used in a humourous manner. It is a definite strong sexual fantasy word for some csimen and offensive to transgendered women perhaps because of their gender issues and it may have been used in a derogatory manner to refer to them at one time.

btw The word "bitch" is a word that some submissive csimen like used on them during m2m sex...lol So, it is all within the context as to how words are used. Perhaps transexuals need to "lighten up" when they read a csiman discuss the word "shemale" in a sexual fantasy manner? I can see that as a difficult request though if you have been hurt by the use of such words in the past.

[void()]

"It doesn't matter what you say or what you refer to it as, I can guarantee the simple fact of saying something will offend someone somewhere."

Very true. I had a similar discussion about writing fiction based on factual events. One of the concerns I harbored was part of the factual events involved a reasonably educated, respectable, well grounded guy wind up committing suicide in a West Virginia motel room, not one or two ways but six or more.

He was found in the tub, wrists slit, ligature around his throat, plastic bag over his head, a toxicology screen off the charts, several bottles of potent wine emptied, an electric radio in the tub and plugged in, a gun recently fired and wounds from that in his head but only his prints on the gun.

This event was because he was writing an exploration on some things certain parties were doing regarding software called PROMIS. And I had thought about creating some fiction about it. Well, imagine the fear, the not wanting to offend anyone.

A writer friend said, "go for it honey, no matter how much you sanitize it, someone will be offended, fuck 'em if they can't take a joke." I never did get around to pulling out anything from it but still may

[MarieDelta]

So basically, transwomen arent welcome here.

Thanks, so sorry for intruding on your space.

[tenni]

Marie
Please do not be an extremist. Transwomen are welcome here but this site is primarily about bisexuality and not about transexuality or monosexuality (hetero or gay).

If transwomen are bisexual, I'm sure that your situation is difficult but I do not read any of your thoughts on your bisexuality. I read most threads that you start as about being a transexual person with nar a mention of trans bisexuality.

[Robinium]

Marie
Please do not be an extremist. Transwomen are welcome here but this site is primarily about bisexuality and not about transexuality or monosexuality (hetero or gay).

If transwomen are bisexual, I'm sure that your situation is difficult but I do not read any of your thoughts on your bisexuality. I read most threads that you start as about being a transexual person with nar a mention of trans bisexuality.

Agree.

[diB4u]

i think you might find that everyone is welcome here bisexual, straight, gay, male, female and transgenders alike.

I find it interesting to hear and read other peoples point of views other than whos sucking what size cock etc... sometimes THAT gets real boring pretty quickly.

[darkeyes]

You mean like "lesser mortals"?

..even them, Darling darling..

[MarieDelta]

Marie
Please do not be an extremist. Transwomen are welcome here but this site is primarily about bisexuality and not about transexuality or monosexuality (hetero or gay).

If transwomen are bisexual, I'm sure that your situation is difficult but I do not read any of your thoughts on your bisexuality. I read most threads that you start as about being a transexual person with nar a mention of trans bisexuality.

Asking for some respect = extreme, gotcha

[cgloren]

Humans are curious beings. Words, once spoken can wound and can't be retracted no matter how hard we try. Odd that in one context they are ugly and in another affirming. I think the N-word is ugly no matter what the context is. However, that is only my opinion...I've had it requested during sex as "pillow talk"....OMG! was that hard to do!
"Bitches" on the other hand brought a smile to my face when a TS girl said it in a ladies' restroom to me and the others in there. The usage "You bitches make way, I gotta pee!" It was kind of affirming and fun considering the source.
Shemale and tranny are and will always be low class sex terms. Anyone with some self respect in spite of having G.I.D. will find them offensive. Which is not to say there are not some low class sex workers who would find them as affirming as having "business cards"
Humans are curious indeed.
Loren

[Robinium]

I think the N-word is ugly no matter what the context is. However, that is only my opinion...I've had it requested during sex as "pillow talk"....OMG! was that hard to do!

I don't know if I could do that either...

[darkeyes]

Marie
Please do not be an extremist. Transwomen are welcome here but this site is primarily about bisexuality and not about transexuality or monosexuality (hetero or gay).

If transwomen are bisexual, I'm sure that your situation is difficult but I do not read any of your thoughts on your bisexuality. I read most threads that you start as about being a transexual person with nar a mention of trans bisexuality.

Marie an extremist? *giggles*.. Trollop...u notty person u...

That'll b the day.. many transexuals are as bisexual as other members of this site Tenni.. TG issues are often overlooked when it comes to the LGBT movement and it is right that Marie as a transwoman is able to draw to our attention the cares and concerns as well as the issues of transpeople.. as you and I are often concerned with the issues of the wider world, as is Marie as it happens, and we post about such issues which we care about and sound to some as extreme, and we get asked what these issues have to do with bisexuality or homosexuality, Marie posts, as is her right, on concerns which all too many of us seem not to care about..

[Realist]

Void Dweller said,

"It doesn't matter what you say or what you refer to it as, I can guarantee the simple fact of saying something will offend someone somewhere."

That's true, some people wear their feelings on their sleeves and it seems that it takes almost nothing to create their ire.

Others seem to let any insult, or slander, roll off them, like they're covered with silicone.

I think it would do us all some good to be polite and considerate of others, especially when we know something we say can hurt others.

As one who grew up in the Southern US, of the '40s and '50s, I was accustom to hearing racial slurs, unproven accusations, and hateful statements about those different than ourselves. Both of my parents were vehemently prejudiced.

I don't know how I became to feel differently; but early on, I began to accept each person on their own merits. I've known wonderful people of all races, as well as some of the worst people of all races. No one has the corner on good, or bad.

I've also learned that respect earns respect..........usually.

So, if we say things that cause others pain, or discomfort, the decent thing to do is stop saying it!

[H0wardmoon]

"If transwomen are bisexual, I'm sure that your situation is difficult but I do not read any of your thoughts on your bisexuality. I read most threads that you start as about being a transexual person with nar a mention of trans bisexuality."

Many of my threads are about being a virgin and shy. I guess I should be out of here, too.

Actually, the majority of what I talk about is really stupid crap. But there's no rule against that.

As for what what to call people, how about their preferred gender?

I was lucky in that I knew a person who was transitioning when I was in college, and she was a genuinely nice person. I actually didn't know until many years later that she was transgender, so I had the luxury of getting to know her before I knew her gender. Life's funny that way.

Look, bi people get enough crap from both the str8 and gay community, we don't need to turn on others.

[tenni]

Howard and others

Look the thread was started over the term "shemale". Marie and others are offended by the word and some csimen bisexuals fantasize about the exact thing that transwomen are offended by. What is your priority here? Maybe posters have no priority (and I'd rather not but tend to support the underdog here as far as politically correct vs csimen). I think that csi biguys should be able to post about their sexual fantasy regardless whether it offends a transwoman or not. As far as virgin bi people are concerned well that is what this site is about..bisexuality.

I know that I'm being politically correct rude but really now. If a transwoman is offended by a csibiguy's fantasy then maybe this is not the site for her or she should just skip over the thread. Transwomen are welcome to post ten thousand threads about being trans if that is what they want to do but expect a reaction from some ...even though most will be polite and not respond other than humble acceptance. We are mainly bisexuals who come here about our bisexuality and not gender issues. As some csibiguy posted, he doesn't open such threads. However, it does look like being a transexual is more important to Marie than her bisexuality. She may remain quiet about her bisexuality if she choses but creates a gender political action mantra about herself on the threads as is also her choice.

darkeyes
Yes, Marie is being rather extremist in my opinion on this issue. She wants csimen to stop referring to their porn fantasy by the term that probably turns them on. Think about the porn term and it idealizes what some csibiguys want..whether it is reality or not. I will defend the right of a csibiguy to post his shemale sexual fantasy on a bisexual website over a transwoman who is politically active over her gender issue.

[H0wardmoon]

It's about respect, and "shemale" is a fairly disrespectful word.

But your use of the word "priorities" suggest there is a hierarchy. So do str8 spouses of bi people have less of a standing here? Where do you draw the line, and more importantly who draws it? Only a person with a perfect Kinsey 4?

[Wrenn]

Would some one please educate me? What is a csimen? I've googled the term and nothing comes up. I did come across cismen though which seems to go along with the topic of this thread.

[darkeyes]

Howard and others

Look the thread was started over the term "shemale". Marie and others are offended by the word and some csimen bisexuals fantasize about the exact thing that transwomen are offended by. What is your priority here? Maybe posters have no priority (and I'd rather not but tend to support the underdog here as far as politically correct vs csimen). I think that csi biguys should be able to post about their sexual fantasy regardless whether it offends a transwoman or not. As far as virgin bi people are concerned well that is what this site is about..bisexuality.

I know that I'm being politically correct rude but really now. If a transwoman is offended by a csibiguy's fantasy then maybe this is not the site for her or she should just skip over the thread. Transwomen are welcome to post ten thousand threads about being trans if that is what they want to do but expect a reaction from some ...even though most will be polite and not respond other than humble acceptance. We are mainly bisexuals who come here about our bisexuality and not gender issues. As some csibiguy posted, he doesn't open such threads. However, it does look like being a transexual is more important to Marie than her bisexuality. She may remain quiet about her bisexuality if she choses but creates a gender political action mantra about herself on the threads as is also her choice.

darkeyes
Yes, Marie is being rather extremist in my opinion on this issue. She wants csimen to stop referring to their porn fantasy by the term that probably turns them on. Think about the porn term and it idealizes what some csibiguys want..whether it is reality or not. I will defend the right of a csibiguy to post his shemale sexual fantasy on a bisexual website over a transwoman who is politically active over her gender issue.

So you defend those who seem to have little or no respect for Transpeople? You agree that we can refer to human beings by terms which are unpleasant to most? Its ok Tenni in one sense.. in theory at least we live in free societies where freedom of expression exists.. yet with freedom of expression goes responsibility not to offend where possible.. most transpeeps consider the expressions shemale and tranny as offensive.. that isn't an extreme position.. treating people with respect and good manners is not an extreme position.. last Saturday night a band of guys gave Kate and I some hassle and called us "rug-munchers".. and it was meant to offend... I have been called it before and it isn't something that I freak about particularly, but their bad manners earned them a good bollocking for their trouble, as well as a warning from the pub manager as to their language and conduct for the rest of the evening....... but it does offend many greatly and is a derogatory remark in the same way as a gay guys normally consider the expressions "shirt lifter" or "bum bandit" offensive.. many are offended by such remarks and expecting good manners and consideration for the feelings of other people can hardly be called extreme.. how people refer to others in the privacy of their own home and among like minded people is their concern.. how they refer to them in public, or in a forum for the world to see and where sensitivities can be at a premium is quite another matter...

..and I will turn things around from something you said generally... being offended by terminology which is in itself offensive to so many does not mean this is not the site for Marie and others.. continually using such terminology when we know that there are people who are offended by the use of such words in reference to them and their kind, really means that it is questionable whether by their repeated rudeness, and rejection of the sensitivities of others, they are worthy of this site... the extreme position Tenni dear, is not that of Marie or any other person offended by the use of the terms in question.. it is the impolite and bloody insulting lack of consideration which those who do repeatedly offend, show toward other people..

[Hephaestion]

Would some one please educate me? What is a csimen? I've googled the term and nothing comes up. I did come across cismen though which seems to go along with the topic of this thread.

its a typing mistake for Cis which in gender studies means 'comfortable with' ; 'identifies with'.

We all type badly. Since injuring my wrist I find that I transpose letters and lose placement information on what the side is doing (proprioreceptors seem to be lagging behind).

[Hephaestion]

I am not so sure that one can educate the world to use 'correct' terminology else we would not have dialects. Shemales gives an impression of men who have blurred their gender towards the female form for whatever reason. It is no more offensive than saying someone is brunette.

From Realist - silicone.

Is silicone now the accepted descriptor for 'nothing sticks'? It used to be 'teflon' in my youth. There is an example of language creep.