can we shake hands???

[rayosytruenos]

Hi!

I have just read JustADuck's post about information on infectious diseases that we can have with different sexual acts, post #9 on the following thread:

http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showt...=7493#post7493

The page she refers to is the following:

http://scarleteen.com/infection/risk_1.html

where we can find almost all the questions you always wanted to ask and were afraid to do it before... . But at the same time I find it a quite scary vision.

They say they are not biased, and the owner of the site is Heather Corinna, a very well known queer, feminist activist, writer... but although they say for instance:

"...the weight of evidence indicates that these abstinence-only programs do not delay the onset of intercourse."

http://scarleteen.com/about.html

they also say on its page on gonorrhea, for example:

"If you do not have sexual contact with other people, your risk of getting gonorrhea is almost zero. [...] Two people who know that they are not infected and who have sex only with each other cannot contract gonorrhea."

http://scarleteen.com/infection/gonorrhea.html

or this on pubic lice:

"The vast majority of public lice cases occur from sexual contact, so the best way to avoid public lice is to abstain from genital contact. [...] It is very rare for two people who have been checked by a doctor and only have sex with each other to get pubic lice."

http://scarleteen.com/infection/pubiclice.html

or this on trichomoniasis:

"If you do not have genital contact with other people, your risk of getting trichomonas is very small."

http://scarleteen.com/infection/trichomoniasis.html

Right, and if I live in a sterile bubble all my life I cannot contract gonorrhea, pubic lice or trichomoniasis either, but it's that realistic? I'm afraid not.

By the way, those 3 quotations are from pages where the contributor has been Janel Hanmer, who seems to me a clear preacher of abstinence, more than even monogamy!!!

And with which purpose? I mean, as we can see from those same quotes:

"If you do not have sexual contact with other people, your risk of getting gonorrhea is almost zero."
"It is very rare for two people who have been checked by a doctor and only have sex with each other to get pubic lice."

"If you do not have genital contact with other people, your risk of getting trichomonas is very small."

So there is always a risk of contracting an infection, being a clean monogamous couple or even practising abstinence!!!

But the information seems to be presented to make people to engage not in just a momogamous relationship, but even better, if you become abstinent!!!

So I think we have to know the facts and know all the possible information and to act on that, but we cannot have an irrational fear about germs. We wouldn't get out of a sterile bubble in that way, and if not that extreme case, there are also some other lesser extremes, like refusing to shake hands or kiss or touch anyone!!! Germs are anywhere.

You should take precautions of course and know the risks you are dealing with, as to be able to accept later on the consequences of your actions.

For instance, a very common infection is the Herpes Simplex Virus (if you have ever had a cold sore you have Herpes Simplex) which affects about one in five people in the United States over age 12 -- approximately 45 million individuals.

http://scarleteen.com/infection/herpes.html

How is the Herpes Simplex Virus transmitted? It can be spread by vaginal, anal or oral intercourse, manual sex, general touch or kissing... It means that if you dearest aunt Clara kisses affectionately your daughter she could be inadvertently transmitting the virus to her.

I read that inside your mouth you have about 200 different types of bacteria. What does it mean? Well, that on one hand if you just kiss someone with a weak defence, you could harm that person, and on the other hand, it means that you are dealing daily with 200 types of bacteria without major problems.

Some viruses on the contrary, once they enter your body, they usually stay there, usually for life, so even after your cold sore is healed, it stays in your body, getting active again after a while, producing another cold sore.

All the best,

ray

[3naib]

Great thread Ray!!!

I think this can easily illustrate how germo-phobes become so! The more you know, the more it's DAMN scary out there.

Add that I lived in China and Thailand for 14 mos, with jaunts to Cambodia and Laos, and you cannot imagine the crazy filth I have witnessed. For a joke, I was going to put together a coffee table book of "Bathrooms of the Far East" for a gift to friends to commemorate the experience.

The key is to keep your immune system well in-tact by SLEEPING enough, managing your stress, exercising and eating right.

Exposing yourself to gems and viruses makes you stronger, its part of being a bio-diverse organism on this planet. That said, if you frequent brothels in BKK, your chances of contracting something you cannot recover from escalate significantly.

Did my chances of contracting something escalate simply because I visisted those places, even though I did not partake in any intimate exchanges (save for placing dollar bills in risque apparel)? Probably.

But so does drinking the water in Amsterdam. A friend of mine almost died from a relative of Cholera from jus tthat. You'd think that the Netherlands are more 1st world than that, but its not about cleanliness as about exposure. And yes, My elerly Auntie DID give me and my brother oral herpes when we were just 6 and 4 yrs old! And YES, you CAN spread oral herpes to genitals as told to me from one of my closest friens's personal accounts: its EXCRUCIATING, besides horifically ugly and embarassing.

It is not fair to say that sucking whoever's cock you want without any form of barrier is the same a shaking an ungloved hand. (Not that you were saying that Ray!) The degreee and severity to which you expose yourself is different.

We all make choices. I personally think it best to be informed of what the ramifications of those choices are.

These days it is not hyperbole to say that you gamble with your (and your partner's life) when you engage in unprotected sex!

My partner and I got tested together about 2wks after we met. We were low-risk, but it mattered not, we felt better KNOWING.

As we discuss the potential to open our boundaries, this is the most significant threat and deterrent: disease.

Just adding my



Om!

[arana]

I have lost a lot of people within the past couple of years and none were because of sexual disease. The most recent was a friend in the Netherlands who was not sick at all, she just collapsed in her bathroom and they could not wake her up. She died before the ambulance could reach her. They determined it was some sort of virus that killed her. She worked in a hospital as a nurse and traveled but there's no telling where she caught it. You must always be smart and use precautions when doing things but you can't let yourself not live and be afraid of every germ out there. Safe sex and being smart about who you're with is the best answer and even that is not always a gaurantee. Life is not a gaurantee, you just have to live it one day at a time and enjoy what you can of it.

[3naib]

The most recent was a friend in the Netherlands who was not sick at all, she just collapsed in her bathroom and they could not wake her up. She died before the ambulance could reach her. They determined it was some sort of virus that killed her. She worked in a hospital as a nurse and traveled but there's no telling where she caught it.

So sad to hear that!

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((hugs)))))))))))))))))) ))))))))))))))

A few years ago, I went to a work collegue's funeral. She was 22. Same thing... Aggressive virus. Out of nowhere. Its truly frightening, and to someone who was so ... healthy and vibrant!

[bigregory]

I guess im a germafobe.
I wash my hands ever chance i can,yet i will get elbow deep in dirt when im working.
Work has caused every infection i know of in my adult life.
Cut here cut there
some deadly stuff /hospitial grade,pills injections etc. just for a cut finger.
So lets be carefull out there.
As for STD'S good luck.
Africa was the birth of mankind i guess i will also be the death.
There is so much i wish to say on this subject but this is not the time or the place.PEACE LOVE SEX

[DGoncz]

Hey, group and groupies. I am still new here.

Here's an alternative we bisexuals can enjoy. My review on this page,

http://www.extremerestraints.com/stat/st727.html
"Woman + Man + Vibrating Feeldoe = Variety"

and other reviews, with the usual glowing sales blurb, will, er, "fill you in".

I agree that continuing low level exposure to *some* STD components can increase immune vigor; it's called the Hygiene Hypothesis. Risk is present everywhere and is managed, *never* avoided. Have a strategy; have knowledge. Try things; test your strategy. Evolve your strategy. Own your strategy.

Love to you all and Hoist That Flag!

Doug Goncz
Replikon Research
Falls Church, VA 22044-0394

[JohnnyV]

Hi folks,

I have to admit, I worry about STD's and my worry keeps me currently monogramous. (I have posted a lot about STD's on this website). In my case, I'm married and am expecting a child.

Each person has to decide for himself or herself how to deal with these questions. I can't take home crabs, Herpes, HIV, or any of it.

Rayos is witty and brings up some good points. But let's cut to the chase. You know there is a huge difference between the common cold or Herpes 1, which you can get by kissing your aunt, and gonorrhea, syphilis, Herpes 2, and the other things that you can get from genital contact, including oral sex. All the humor and flippant confidence in the world can't change that.

If you're single and there are no stakes involved, I would say, worry only about HIV. Everything else can be cured, and you only live once.

BUT if other people whom you love depend on your health and there's no room for STDs, then be warned of the consequences and don't get yourself in a mess you don't want. If you have a spouse or long-term lover, and end up passing on chlamydia to them, don't go around crying that you didn't realize it was going to happen. I've heard too many people say, "but I thought that I couldn't catch X from doing Y...."

J

[rayosytruenos]

Hi folks,

I have to admit, I worry about STD's and my worry keeps me currently monogramous. (I have posted a lot about STD's on this website). In my case, I'm married and am expecting a child.

[...]

Rayos is witty and brings up some good points. But let's cut to the chase. You know there is a huge difference between the common cold or Herpes 1, which you can get by kissing your aunt, and gonorrhea, syphilis, Herpes 2, and the other things that you can get from genital contact, including oral sex. All the humor and flippant confidence in the world can't change that.

If you're single and there are no stakes involved, I would say, worry only about HIV. Everything else can be cured, and you only live once.

[...]

J

Hi, J!

My weird humour is what keeps me going. I laugh at myself and at my problems, even if some people have commited suicide having similar issues. So, no, my humour I think is a defence mechanism to keep me sane enough to keep on living, and although I have expressed my sense of humour in other topics or quite openly in the chat-room, I can speak quite seriously when the occasion is required.

I believe I spoke quite seriously within my first post at the beginning of this thread. I just wanted to express my concerns if we go to extremes. I think, like some Eastern philosophies that the middle path is the most difficult way, that's what they call the razor's edge. I want to say with that, that it seems the best way to be ponderate, and not being overly horrified by the possibilities of getting germs or overly taking it too easily and not even practising the basic hygienic procedures.

I am concerned about health issues, and probably more than many people, as you can see in some previous posts, for instance, posts #3 and #4 of the following link, which were posted before the "can we shake hands???" thread was started:

http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showthread.php?t=579

I just think that the people should be informed enough and then take their own decisions based on that, and being aware of the possible consequences.

I think we have just opened Pandora's box and there is a lot to say about, but I believe the discussion could be quite informative and give different and various points of view to people who have not looked for info on these issues.

What's the difference between a boxer and a person with a cold? A boxer knows his blows; a person with a cold blows his nose. ...

Ok, it seems that I'm not taking seriously the cold, but neither are you.

You know there is a huge difference between the common cold or Herpes 1, which you can get by kissing your aunt, and gonorrhea, syphilis, Herpes 2, and the other things that you can get from genital contact, including oral sex.

"Although colds rarely cause serious complications, they can lay the groundwork for subsequent problems such as sinus or middle-ear infections. Cold can also exacerbate asthma and can sometimes be followed by lingering bronchial irritation or infections. Young children are especially susceptible to painful middle-ear infections, which are linked to the cold virus. Sinusitis more commonly affects adults and is an infection of the sinus cavities with symptoms of nasal congestion, pressure or pain in the sinuses, headache, and a yellowish-green mucous discharge.

More serious respiratory infections such as bronchitis and pneumonia can also follow a cold, especially for the elderly or those with lowered immunity. Bronchitis is an infection of the bronchi, the tubes that carry air to the lungs. Symptoms include a persistent phlegm-producing cough and breathlessness. Acute bronchitis is usually caused by a virus and can last from a few days to two weeks or longer.

Pneumonia is a potentially dangerous viral or [...] "

http://books.google.co.uk/books?ie=U...67NiyfknpNbHUY

So as you can see, a cold, or the possible after-effects of a cold, could kill a person, so it's not such a simple infection!!!

About Herpes I:

"There are two types of the Herpes Simplex Virus: Simplex I and Simplex II. Simplex I usually infects the mouth (cold sores are Herpes Simplex I) , and Simplex II usually infects the genitals. However, both types can be transmitted sexually (through kissing and oral sex as well as through skin and genital contact), and HS I is not limited to the mouth area. It can also sometimes cause genital-area or anal-area lesions.

There is currently no cure for any form of the Herpes virus.

Herpes can cause severe problems for newborns, especially if birth occurs during an outbreak of active sores or lesions. Herpes infection can potentially cause miscarriage or stillbirth, or chronic health problems and developmental disabilities in a live birth."

http://scarleteen.com/infection/herpes.html

So again, even an infection with the Herpes Simplex Virus could lead to fatal consequences.

If you're single and there are no stakes involved, I would say, worry only about HIV. Everything else can be cured, and you only live once.

I don't think that for being single, you can be that easily going with health matters, but I do think you should be doing things with the knowledge of the consequences if you have decided no to take enough precautions, which BY NO MEANS I advise to do. I EMPHATICALLY do advise to practise safe sex.

And not everything can be cured:

"Like many viruses, CMV can remain in the body for life, and there is presently no cure."

http://scarleteen.com/infection/cmv.html

"Is it [Hepatitis B] curable? No. Your body may cure itself of it with antibodies, but people without antibodies cannot be cured."

http://scarleteen.com/infection/hepatitisb.html

"There is currently no cure for any form of the Herpes virus."

http://scarleteen.com/infection/herpes.html

"Is it [HUMAN PAPILLOMA VIRUS (HPV)] curable? No. Even when the warts are removed, the virus is still present in the body, and can be transmitted to partners when no warts are present, and cause long-term health problems like cervical cancer. Some people may, however, shed the virus over time."

http://scarleteen.com/infection/hpv_2.html

"Is it [PELVIC INFLAMMATORY DISEASE (PID)] curable? In some cases, but it can recur even once treated if the person becomes reinfected."

http://scarleteen.com/infection/pid.html

Also I want to say that you can have infections traditionally associated with sex, WITHOUT ANY SEX CONTACT!!!

"Every year, CMV (cytomegalovirus) causes permanent disabilities, hearing loss and mental retardation for as many as 7,000 infants.

CMV is one member of a group of herpes-type viruses.

How is it spread? By any body fluids through general nonsexual contact, vaginal, anal, or oral intercourse, blood transfusions or sharing IV drug equipment, bone marrow stransplants or from mother to infant during pregnancy, birth or via breastfeeding.

Can it cause death? When pneumonia becomes present with CMV, decreased oxygen in the blood can be fatal. It can also contribute to secondary infections or diseases as well as kidney failure, all of which can cause death."

http://scarleteen.com/infection/cmv.html

What I want to make clear also is that not for getting involved in sexual practices you are going to get infected with "sexual" infections, but that at the same time, NOT FOR NOT GETTING INVOLVED IN SEXUAL PRACTICES YOU ARE GOING TO BE FREE of even "sexual" infections.

People like to oversimplify things to easily manage them, but sometimes it leads to misinformation, for instance, IT'S TRUE that you can get HIV when treated at a dentist, IT'S TRUE that you can get infected also when you have a blood transfusion... Ok, these chances fortunately have been reduced greatly, but it doesn't mean that there is still a danger. And supposedly you don't have sex with your dentist (please don't read my "the first time" thread ) or with the nurse at the blood unit... or with both!!!

All the best,

ray

[JohnnyV]

Ray,

You surely are a bundle of sunbeams and thunder (which is what your screen name means Spanish, my mother tongute).

Well, after your extensive rundown, I'm certain I'm NEVER going to cheat for the rest of my life! Nothing but m4m phone sex for this hunky bi-boy! (And to think that all my bicep curls and 50-inch chest will have to go to waste on the hordes of horny gay men!)

Our doc is going to prescribe a suppressive drug to prevent any Herpes outbreak before the birth, b/c we both have HSV-1 and I've performed cunnilingus on her, so I can't be too careful.

Other than that, I'll have to live with looking at other men as eye-candy and investing in an immense library of gay porn. I'm up to 27 titles -- I bet nobody on here has more than I do. My favorite is a bareback number called "Skin on Skin."

Thanks for the info-- and have a safe new year.

J

[rayosytruenos]

Ray,

You surely are a bundle of sunbeams and thunder (which is what your screen name means Spanish, my mother tongute).

Well, after your extensive rundown, I'm certain I'm NEVER going to cheat for the rest of my life! Nothing but m4m phone sex for this hunky bi-boy! (And to think that all my bicep curls and 50-inch chest will have to go to waste on the hordes of horny gay men!)

Our doc is going to prescribe a suppressive drug to prevent any Herpes outbreak before the birth, b/c we both have HSV-1 and I've performed cunnilingus on her, so I can't be too careful.

Other than that, I'll have to live with looking at other men as eye-candy and investing in an immense library of gay porn. I'm up to 27 titles -- I bet nobody on here has more than I do. My favorite is a bareback number called "Skin on Skin."

Thanks for the info-- and have a safe new year.

J

Hi, J!

Lol... Nice... My mother tongue is also Spanish (!encantado de conocerte!, nice to meet you!... it seems that the set of Spanish characters doesn't work here)

You are right about the meaning of my nickname, although the "rayos" I was speaking of were not "sunbeams" but "lightnings" ("rela'mpagos")... It's a long story but it is related to what the character "Captain Haddock" is always saying in the "Tintin" comic...

Lmao... yeah, lately my posts have really increased in size... My tv has broken down and now I spend long hours bored at the computer...

I checked, but couldn't see the hunky bi-boy... you know, you cannot catch any germs if you post or see pics on the net...

I'm a bit concerned with bareback vids as they seem to promote condom-less practices while I'm one for always safe sex. Although they certainly give always life to my little "buddy"... And "Skin on Skin" really sounds quite erotic... mmm

Yeah, it's better to have everything under control. Congratulations to the "papa'ito", to the father-to-be!!!

Happy New Year!!!

All the best,

ray

[JohnnyV]

Hahaha, Thunderman! You don't have your pic up either, unless you count that little cartoon with the rose between the teeth!

Just treat bareback vids like fantasy and remember this is not you. My amiguito doesn't like condoms, which is why I have to be extra-monogamous and so dependent on porn. Porn with condoms isn't enough of a fantasy for me.

J

[rayosytruenos]

Hahaha, Thunderman! You don't have your pic up either, unless you count that little cartoon with the rose between the teeth!

Just treat bareback vids like fantasy and remember this is not you. My amiguito doesn't like condoms, which is why I have to be extra-monogamous and so dependent on porn. Porn with condoms isn't enough of a fantasy for me.

J

Lol... Check again... I'm the one on the beach, bothered by how much sand I have on my body...

Who doesn't like condoms? Your amiguito or you???

[JohnnyV]

My amiguito is my cock. I'm married to a hembra.

Where is the pic of you on the beach? All I see is you as a toddler.

J

[rayosytruenos]

My amiguito is my cock. I'm married to a hembra.

Where is the pic of you on the beach? All I see is you as a toddler.

J

I knew that your amiguito was that... lol... so who doesn't like condoms, you or your little friend??? And I guessed you were married to a hembra, otherwise "he" will be millionaire for being the first pregnant man in the world...

The pic is among the 10 pics attached to my profile at the bottom...

[JustADuck]

I think scarleteen as a site is very honest about STI risks. I'd rather know and make an informed decision, even if that is a decision to be monogamous or even celibate, than have the information glossed over and go blindly into the sexual world. I don't agree with you at all.

[rayosytruenos]

I think scarleteen as a site is very honest about STI risks. I'd rather know and make an informed decision, even if that is a decision to be monogamous or even celibate, than have the information glossed over and go blindly into the sexual world. I don't agree with you at all.

Hi!

Yes, I think the info is true, and I think you can see it from my references and advice, but it doesn't stop making me believe that it is a bit biased.

I think I have said everywhere that I believe that safe sex is of paramount importance, that you have to be as well informed as possible about the possible dangers, and then make a decision on what you are going to do. I've said also that that decision can affect your life for ever or even eventually cause your death.

I'd rather know and make an informed decision, even if that is a decision to be monogamous or even celibate [...]

Can you imagine if for that information everyone became celibate??? The humanity just would perish!!!

I don't think that biologically we are meant not to have sex, otherwise our reproduction system would have been rather different: asexual, like some cells, or maybe some sort of spores...

I said it is a bit biased, because from my point of view, it seems to lead people to practise monogamy, or even better, abstinence, and I have just explained my reasons why I don't think that's logical. Also it does not explain clearly that those infections can be also caught indirectly by a non-sexual contact like someone having a sexual infection goes to the toilet and doesn't wash his/her hands and then shakes hands or just touches another person, who in turn excuses himself/herself to go to the toilet and then puts the germs given by the other one in touch with his/her genitals, eyes (for having a sudden itch) or even mouth for feeling an eyelash or whatever. These could be a bit extreme to you, but I see it everyday. Many people don't wash their hands after going to the toilet (and it's only one way to be easily infectious...)

So you say you don't agree with me at all, let's see all your points:

You:

I think scarleteen as a site is very honest about STI risks.

Me: Yes, I think the site is very honest about STI risks, but it lacks on more extense information on how those illnesses can be caught without a sexual contact.

You:

I'd rather know and make an informed decision, even if that is a decision to be monogamous or even celibate, than have the information glossed over and go blindly into the sexual world.

Me: Yes, you must be as informed as possible before getting into the sexual world, and yes, always make a decision based on that information. Being monogamous, celibate or other choices is up to you. Celibacy could mean the end of the mankind as species, so I would prefer another choice, but your decision is yours and it's up to you.

You:

I don't agree with you at all.

Me: ???

All the best,

ray

[tatooedpunk]

a friend of mine caught hepatitis b from a patient
she was denied access home from Poland, she caught it in fife

[JohnnyV]

Rayos,

Why only show us your crack? Why not a face pic so we can put a visual on your wit and wisdom?

J

[rayosytruenos]

Rayos,

Why only show us your crack? Why not a face pic so we can put a visual on your wit and wisdom?

J

lol... it's not my crack, but my whole body gloriously exposed on the beach and glued with a thick layer of sand...

...but the butt is cheeky...

I wish I would be wise, and I'll try to be a bit witty, if I get it, just a bit, it's enough for me...

Now, my dear ones, I must retreat again to my meditation to reach enlightment and freedom from this world and its wheel of endless births and deaths... mmmmmmmmmmmmmmy blessings are wih you...

oooops I think my finger got glued to the "m" key... actually I find it a bit sticky... could it be the gods' ambrosia???

[Fresia]

Bump it up!