Trial By Judge

[darkeyes]

Is this proper justice do you think? Or the thin end of the wedge... it is certainly not trial by our peers. I do know the potential ramifications scare me silly whatever the defendants are supposed to have done...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8582354.stm

[MarieDelta]

Are we to believe that the jury would be influenced by some sort of threat of bodily harm?

Doesn't Britain have the same protection of jurors as the U.S.?

Something smells to me...

[darkeyes]

Are we to believe that the jury would be influenced by some sort of threat of bodily harm?

Doesn't Britain have the same protection of jurors as the U.S.?

Something smells to me...

In theory Marie, in England at any rate.. whether or not it would happen north of the border I can't say.... obviously somebody feels protection of jurors is inadequate.. its more a condemnation of that than anything else.. or is it a figment in the imagination of the authorities? Are they overplaying the threat? Three collapsed jury trials say something but to be honest I am unsure of quite what. It certainly doesn't make English justice look very good or instill in us much confidence, and by inference I suppose, justice in the rest of the UK.

[locotom]

i think its coming to the stage in the uk where we'll all start worrying about a knock on the door at 3 am

[FalconAngel]

i think its coming to the stage in the uk where we'll all start worrying about a knock on the door at 3 am

That is one of the reasons that thirteen colonies fought a war to break from England and became a nation under a Constitution who's intention was equal protection and liberty. (that's the short version, of course)

Maybe a removal of the Monarchy and class system is in order over there. People are getting enough education to now see beyond the old ways that may no longer serve a purpose for your nation.

Or at least overhauling the laws a bit more, tweaking them for the change of times.

[darkeyes]

That is one of the reasons that thirteen colonies fought a war to break from England and became a nation under a Constitution who's intention was equal protection and liberty. (that's the short version, of course)

Maybe a removal of the Monarchy and class system is in order over there. People are getting enough education to now see beyond the old ways that may no longer serve a purpose for your nation.

Or at least overhauling the laws a bit more, tweaking them for the change of times.
Aaah the land of the free.. had 2 getya lil dig in boutya war a liberation huh Falcie?.. don wonna explode that myth but ya hav lil thing known as Rendition an a place called Guantanamo foreya go down that route... everyplace has its lil skeletons for abusin human rites..;):)

..but do agree the end of monarchy and the class system its existence upholds and propogates would be nice, but am not sure that it is applicable in this case.. and it is overhauling the law which has brought this about..just like the ending of double indemnity in some cases.. in many ways the UK, in its constituent nations individually or as a state collectively, is more free than it has ever been.. but every so often something crops up which just goes to show that in so many ways it is also anything but.. the guys involved in this case may well be bastards and may well have scared the poop out of those they robbed and they may well have tried in one way or other to nobble juries and witnesses, but that does not mean the state has the right to deprive people from the right to trial by jury.. it is the authorities job to make sure that jurors and witnesses are protected and safe and maintain the right of citizens (and non citizens for that matter, Falcie) to trial by their peers.. only by doing so can justice said to have been served and seen to be served... that can never be said when it is a single person is Judge and Jury.

[Canticle]

Fran.....I read about this. It's unconstitutional. The British Constitution (which I have studied), says that we all have a right to be tried in front of a jury, of our peers. If we begin to have the outcome of a trial, decided by Judges, freedom will suffer and the Constitution will be damaged.

Falcon.....

''That is one of the reasons that thirteen colonies fought a war to break from England and became a nation under a Constitution who's intention was equal protection and liberty. (that's the short version, of course)''

I have to express an opinion here and it will be one, that some Americans will not like. For a start, the thirteen colonies broke away, not from England, but the United Kingdom/Great Britain....the United Kingdom being officially formed by the signing of the Act of Settlement in 1707, although Enland, Wales and Ireland had been reigned over, by the same monarchy, since 1603.

Just to add....no monarch has ''ruled'' this country since the Glorious Revolution of 1689 and if Charles I has not been such an arrogant man, Britain would have had a Constitutional Monarchy, from the 1640s onwards.

Back to the point I wanted to make. I do not believe that the wealthy people, who were the thirteen colonies founding fathers, were thinking of the freedom and liberty of the poor white, the black slave, the Native American, or the rights of women, when they rebelled against the British. I think that if paying taxes to the Crown had benefited the wealthy, then they would not have been interested in breaking free.

Now please tear me apart, if you so wish, but that is what I think and I have had many Americans agree with me.

''Maybe a removal of the Monarchy and class system is in order over there. People are getting enough education to now see beyond the old ways that may no longer serve a purpose for your nation.''

I am a monarchist. Please note, that there is a great difference between a monarchist and a royalist (I'm also a Socialist). Royalists are those who consider the monarch and the wider Royal family, to be either part of their own family, or somehow, some kind of role model for the country, when in fact, they are just normal human beings and most of them, quite intelligent. Also they are expected to ''work,'' by being ambassadors for the UK, when they travel to different countries, on official visits....a government minister always accompanying them.

The beauty of having a Constitutional monarchy is this.....it is non political. It is a head of state with no political affiliations (though, I am sure the Monarch will have personal beliefs), and the Monarch cannot make any political comments. When one head of state dies, there is another to slip into the role.....a smooth transition...and the country is governed by a democratically elected government. A general election, from announcement, to the actual voting, takes about three weeks. There is no long, drawn out election for some political head of state.

The laws of the lands are decided in Parliament, firstly in the House of Commons and then passed over for discussion and voting, in the House of Lords. We no longer have any hereditary peers in the House of Lords....this ended a few years ago. It is still not an elected upper house and long may it remain so. The House of Lords is a place that can be used to make sure that brilliant politicians, who have retired from the House of Commons, are able to remain in the political and governing environment. People from all walks of life and all life experiences can be given a peerage, therefore being able to contribute to the political system and the House of Lords, is also the highest law court in the land. The law lords act as a check on a government, which may get a little too big for it's boots.


What do you perceive as the the Class System? Nowadays, it's mainly how much you earn which determines, which class one is supposed to belong to. The middle classes being the biggest class of all and one that is supposed to be able to afford everything it needs. Total bullshit, because unless one is a multi-millionaire, being middle class ain't gonna get you a Rolls Royce or a mansion.....maybe a detached house and a reasonable car...and enough money to pay most of the bills.

I would argue that there are not many people who would like to see the constitution and the way a government comes about, or what kind of head of state we have, change. A non political head of state is much more democratic, in my thinking, than having a commander in chief....who is from a political party.

''Or at least overhauling the laws a bit more, tweaking them for the change of times.''

What makes you think that the laws of the United Kingdom...do not get tweaked. Unlike the USA, the United Kingdom does not have a fixed and written constitution. The British Constitution, is referred to as unwritten, even though, obviously, every law of the land is written down and signed by the monarch (that is when an act of parliament becomes law), and there are stored, written down and signed laws, going back to Anglo-Saxon times. An ''unwrtten'' constitution is far more easy to change and in my eyes, far more democratic.

Nothing needs to be especially ''tweaked'' for a change of the times......laws are being passed....new ones and old ones altered, all the time. It has always been so......at least.....ever since we had a constitutional monarchy.

[TwylaTwobits]

Basically what I know about the English legal system is gleaned from watching Rumpole of the Bailey on BBC. But it appears Canticle summed it up best. If violence and the jurors being influenced are true, then the trial by judge is probably provided for. I know that here in America the accused can waive his right to a jury trial in order to have a faster due process or to try and hope one judge is easier to convince than 12 jurors.

Thanks for posting Fran, sometimes we need to see bits of justice from around the world to get a better understanding of our neighbors.

[darkeyes]

Basically what I know about the English legal system is gleaned from watching Rumpole of the Bailey on BBC. But it appears Canticle summed it up best. If violence and the jurors being influenced are true, then the trial by judge is probably provided for. I know that here in America the accused can waive his right to a jury trial in order to have a faster due process or to try and hope one judge is easier to convince than 12 jurors.

Thanks for posting Fran, sometimes we need to see bits of justice from around the world to get a better understanding of our neighbors.

Hahahaha... its quite arguable whether it can be called justice Twyla.. but its an odd place England.. even odder than we are north of the border.. an thats sayin summat.. tee hee

[TwylaTwobits]

heheh maybe I should have said "Bits of the travesty they label the justice system"?

[Canticle]

Hahahaha... its quite arguable whether it can be called justice Twyla.. but its an odd place England.. even odder than we are north of the border.. an thats sayin summat.. tee hee

I have always found the difference, between the Scottish and English (including Wales ad Northern Ireland), legal systems, to be quite fascinating. How the Procurator Fiscal plays such an important part in Scotland and the Crown Prosecution Service in England. How in Scotland there can be three possible verdicts, guilty, not guilty, or not proven.

I used to know all about magistrates and stipendiary magistrates and different levels in the appointment of Judges, but alas, I have forgotten many of the details.

When a person is taken before the Magistrate in England, he/she can opt for trial by Jury. I remember a guy, where I used to work, lost control of his car, demolished the window of a store and after being asked to blow into the special instrument of torture (which I am not naming, because I can't remember how to spell it), was arrested and charged, with drunken driving.

He could have gone before the Magistrate, lost his licence and paid a fine. However, he insisted that he was not over the legal limit for alcohol....even though lab tests showed otherwise. He opted for trial by Jury. Result....he was still found guilty....based upon the evidence provided.....he still lost his licence....he had a bigger fine to pay, plus all the legal costs and he still lost his job. Had he listened to his solicitor....but No....the young man thought he knew it all.

Ahhh, Fran...you can't be all that odd, over the border, if you produced Chick Murray........but never, will we forgive you, for the Krankies and that ghastly boy band who wore tartan...The Bay City Rollers.....Never!

[darkeyes]

Ahhh, Fran...you can't be all that odd, over the border, if you produced Chick Murray........but never, will we forgive you, for the Krankies and that ghastly boy band who wore tartan...The Bay City Rollers.....Never!

God... the Krankies... awful... we r suitably ashamed for producin them.. but shhhhh... don say owt bad bout the Bay Shitt...oops soz..City Rollers.. me mum mite hear, an then me will cop it for even acknowledgin ya exist... but we also hav Annie Lennox an Amy McDonald an Eddi Reader an Maggie Reilly an Katie Tunstall... awesome voices all... hav seen all an will 'gain...

..an if u think me is gonna forgive u lot for Blur...ya shud all b put down for them..butya hav Oasis an Coldplay an Lily an Lil Boots an Amy (Winehouse), Florence an the late incomparable Dusty... seen all cept Dusty an that is huge regret... an that me luffly saves ya bacon.. but only just!!!!!

..we Brits can all tho claim the gorge Katie Melua.. spesh in the North of Ireland.. but no matta... if ther is a God..she is Georgian (Stalin notwithstandin.. bad judgement ther rite enuff)... sings like angel, looks like angel.. is angel... nearest me has ev seen 2 the perfect human bein (part from u no hoo course...Fran wonts 2 live tyvm)... an hav stood up close an had lil breath of 'er scent... smells like an angel an all...:bigrin:

k...off topic me knos..aaah well... me started it so me can change it if me wonts... tee hee

[Canticle]

God... the Krankies... awful... we r suitably ashamed for producin them.. but shhhhh... don say owt bad bout the Bay Shitt...oops soz..City Rollers.. me mum mite hear, an then me will cop it for even acknowledgin ya exist... but we also hav Annie Lennox an Amy McDonald an Eddi Reader an Maggie Reilly an Katie Tunstall... awesome voices all... hav seen all an will 'gain...

..an if u think me is gonna forgive u lot for Blur...ya shud all b put down for them..butya hav Oasis an Coldplay an Lily an Lil Boots an Amy (Winehouse), Florence an the late incomparable Dusty... seen all cept Dusty an that is huge regret... an that me luffly saves ya bacon.. but only just!!!!!

..we Brits can all tho claim the gorge Katie Melua.. spesh in the North of Ireland.. but no matta... if ther is a God..she is Georgian (Stalin notwithstandin.. bad judgement ther rite enuff)... sings like angel, looks like angel.. is angel... nearest me has ev seen 2 the perfect human bein (part from u no hoo course...Fran wonts 2 live tyvm)... an hav stood up close an had lil breath of 'er scent... smells like an angel an all...:bigrin:

k...off topic me knos..aaah well... me started it so me can change it if me wonts... tee hee

''No M'Lud, it wuz no murda, it wer self prezervashun, That's why I 'ad ta do i'....drarning them bruvvers in th'oasis wuz too muchova temtashun. I aff ta pleed guilee too a few mor attems....but tha rozzers wer ararn, so i wer not suckcesspool''

Gee, that was bad......doesn't even read like Parker from Thunderbirds......Oh well...kept the legal thing going...M'Lud.

Don't like bands...or the Winegum Girl. Lennox...pure gold....and Dusty and lil Katie Melua. Don't know the others.....and there is me, with an eclectic taste in music....or so I was told. Doesn't that apply to everyone...well, most everyone......

Community Service.....be locked in a booth for 100 hours and listen to nothing but the Bay City Rollers.....LOL!!!

[darkeyes]

''No M'Lud, it wuz no murda, it wer self prezervashun, That's why I 'ad ta do i'....drarning them bruvvers in th'oasis wuz too muchova temtashun. I aff ta pleed guilee too a few mor attems....but tha rozzers wer ararn, so i wer not suckcesspool''

Gee, that was bad......doesn't even read like Parker from Thunderbirds......Oh well...kept the legal thing going...M'Lud.

Don't like bands...or the Winegum Girl. Lennox...pure gold....and Dusty and lil Katie Melua. Don't know the others.....and there is me, with an eclectic taste in music....or so I was told. Doesn't that apply to everyone...well, most everyone......

Community Service.....be locked in a booth for 100 hours and listen to nothing but the Bay City Rollers.....LOL!!!

Hahahahaha..reads like Parker 2 me Canticle.. :tong: