uncertain about bisexuality and morals

[PeterH]

Dear all,

I feel very uncertain about the relationship between bisexuality and morals, esp monogamy, and it's eating at me. It's a field where I really don't know any of the answers. I was hoping that some of you have found some answers for yourself. If you have any views to share, I would be very interested in hearing from them,

Peter

[mike9753]

Hi Peter:

I can only share with you my own thoughts and hope that others will do the same. I am a bisexual male who has had experiences with other men in my past. However, I am married now and my relationship with the lady I married is over 14 years old. During that time I have never had any intimate/sexual relations with anyone else - male or female.

The reason is that I believe that human beings are happiest when they have a fulfilling relationship with a single other mate (same sex or opposite sex). I think we are not at the point in our evolution where we can deal with the emotional complexities of multiple relationships that involve sexual intimacy and love. Some say that they can do it and that they are happy. I have no reason to doubt them. Although I have met others who have said the same thing and when you really look into their relationships, you begin to see that either they are not fully committed to their partner(s), because of the need to manage two intense emotional relationships at teh same time.

Now you may argue that people can have sex and not fall in love. You are 100% correct - I agree that is certainly true. But I also believe that if you want to have a fulfilling relationship with another, you actually dilute the relationship when you have sex with others - because sex is a very intimate act - I believe that it is not only a sharing of physicality, but it is also a sharing of some sort of spirituality.

You can look at it this way. It's as if we all have a cetain amount of spiritual essence or capital that we share when we have intimate, sexual relations with someone we care about. We share some of our essence with them during the act of sex/love. They in turn replenish us with the spiritual capital they share with us. So we gain something new from outside ourselves and it enhances us.

When we have sex with another when there is no emotional connection we still share something of ourselves, but we diminish the importance of this bonding and they in turn do the same to us. In the end, both parties lose. In the end, both are diminished, not enhanced. Sex is in danger of becoming hollow and emotionally meaningless and worse destrctive.

Now you might counter my thoughts by saying that this is not morality. It's more practicality. I would say that if it alters who you are iby diminishing you and has the potential to do the same to your partner(s), then there is a moral dimension to this.

I have not met the people who say they are able to have multiple sex partners simultaneously (male and female) and are successful in that they are happy and have stable relationships. Many self report that they are out there and have dealt with their concerns of morality successfully. I have not met them so I take their word for it.

I hope this helps you a little. I also hope it stimulates others to contribute their thoughts and perspectives. The older i get the more I realize that I have so much more to learn.
Mike

[rupertbare]

Well one of the dictionaries I use gives the following for "morals":
A) adhering to conventionally accepted standards of conduct
B)from Latin moralis relating to morals or customs, from mos custom

So what we are dealing with here is how the customs of your own society shape your opions regarding matters of "normalacy" within sexuality.

Here in the UK, basically a Christian society, monogamy is considered the "norm" - yet we have a huge divorce rate, one of the world's highest rates of underage pregnancy and one of the world's higest rates of STD's. Plus the fact that well over 40% of children are now born "out of wedlock". Much of our TV drama and Soap Opera output is based around people being unfaithful to their partners or being locked into unloving relationships.

Yet I, as a biamorous (bisexual) male, was more than happy to stay faithful (therefore monogomous) to my wife for over 15years. One gets tempted, staying faithful in a society that has become "sexualised" is not an easy thing and to be honest I truly believe that if I had been 100% hetrosexual I would have "strayed" long ago - I certainly had the opportunity on more than one occasion!!?? lol!!

So I'm not sure if that in any way helps or goes to answering your question but that's my point of view!!???

Love and Peace

Rupe, UK :)

[The Cheshire Cat]

"because sex is a very intimate act - I believe that it is not only a sharing of physicality, but it is also a sharing of some sort of spirituality."
I think i am inclined to agree with that. Cat

[cchalmer]

Having started out in a new relationship recently......one where from the outset the fact that I was bi was on the table and that she is curious.... this is one thing that we have discussed a lot. We made our "rules" if you want to call them that. We agreed on what we would consider as being acceptable. So we have established our own morals and that makes things so much easier. I have never been one to worry about living up to other people's standards. This is my life to share with my partner and if we are happy with the course that we have plotted out.....who cares about what Joe Blow down the street thinks of us.

My own philosophy is to be happy with myself.....and the fact that my partner is comfortable with that too makes things soo much easier.

[csrakate]

Peter,
I am sure that many people, bi, gay or straight struggle with the issue of morality when it comes to sex and the issue of monogamy has certainly been argued ad infinitum on various threads. But the best advice that I have heard and something that I base a lot of my life choices on was offered to my husband and myself from a source that I highly admire.

We chose to attend pre-marital counseling from our church before our wedding. We covered all the topics including in laws, children and expectations for the future and finally we arrived at the one that made us the most nervous...SEX. Our pastor, a man that my husband had known for much of his life, turned to us and said, "I will say one thing and one thing only in regards to sex...if it is mutually agreeable, if there are no secrets, and if it feels good...Do it."

There will always be people out there who have different opinions...there will always be those who choose to judge others...but in the grand scheme of things, the most important judgement comes from within. By all means you need to be honest with those you love...by all means you need to communicate and share openly and frequently...but by all means you need to be true to yourself, to your gut instincts. You need to recognize that if it feels wrong for any reason, you may need to sort that out within yourself first and it may very well be something that isn't right for you. But do remember this...if it feels right...if it is mutally agreed upon by ALL parties involved without secrecy or deception...and if it feels good...then by all means..DO IT!

Just my two cents worth:2cents:...not preaching or pushing it...just sharing how I feel. :)

Peter, I wish you good luck on your quest to find some peace in this matter...and one more thing...keep sharing and keep asking questions. You may not always find what you are looking for, but you certainly will have a variety of options to consider.

Hugs,
Kate

[rumple4skin]

Peter,
Thanks for the post. I apologize in advance for the long post here. I can understand your confusion about morality and bisexuality. I have been there at times myself and may be there again in the future :). I feel morals are a very complicated and yet very simple thing and I have thought about this issue alot.

I think the relationship I have with others is between me and the other or others involved. It does not need the approval of the world at large. If I want to be in a monogamous relationship then that is what is right. If I want to be in a “poly” relationship then that is what is right. If I want to have sex with as many people as I can then that is what is right. It has nothing to do with sex or my orientation and everything to do with me being honest with them and myself and how I communicate what I want and need and what my intentions are. I do not think that just because much of the world feels that monogamy is the right path for them that it means it has to be the right path for me.

On the other side of the coin I have heard the idea of being bi in a monogamous relationship equated to being half celibate. I do not feel that is the case. I do not think that because I am bi I need to have both all the time. I do not mean to be too crude here but the best analogy I can think of is one about anal sex (no pun intended :tongue: ). If I was heterosexual and in a monogamous relationship with a woman who was not into anal sex but I really wanted to have anal sex that does not mean that I am being half celibate because I am not getting a particular kind of sex. I think all relationships require a degree of compromise or sacrifice. I must decide if the relationship is worth the compromise or sacrifice and be honest with myself about what I am willing to give to the relationship in return for what I get out of the relationship. I must also be honest with the others I am involved with as far as what I think the relationship consists of. That is how I currently see the monogamy/bisexuality/morality issue. I am looking forward to seeing other peoples thoughts and ideas on this.
Anyway – that is my :2cents: - The funny thing is that while I may see things this way I do not consider other people “wrong” if they do not see things this way.
Thanks again for the post Peter – I hope I did not add confusion to an already confusing issue.
Rumple

[csrakate]

Good points Rumple. I do believe that we all spend too much time trying to do what is considered normal but sometimes fail to acknowledge what is right for us. I am sure many of my so called friends would have been appalled that I willingly entered into a marriage with a man who told me he was bisexual the night that he proposed. Needless to say, I didn't share this information with anyone but I must also add that I didn't feel the need to do so. I was the one who who needed to make that decision...I was the one that needed to do what I felt was right for me. So, I followed my heart and followed my instincts and 25 years later I find that I have no regrets whatsoever. It hasn't always been easy, however. Although my husband chose to be monogamous and made that very clear the night he proposed, from time to time I would go through periods worrying about whether or not I would be "enough" for him. I didn't know very much about bisexuality and I made many assumptions based on what I had heard from other sources, and not very good sources I might add. I was afraid to express these fears to my husband because I didn't want him to feel ashamed of himself or to have doubts about my feelings towards him. By keeping these fears to myself and not talking openly to him about them, I not only suffered in silence but I also created an atmosphere that very often led to feelings of frustration for us both.

I decided that I needed to learn more about bisexuality and after coming to this site, I was able to see that bisexuals are not cookie cutter creatures...they are all different with different wants and needs. Some find it easy to remain monogamous while others find it a daily struggle. What worked for me and my husband may not work for others...but there is nothing wrong with that either and I would never judge or condemn anyone for choosing another path. It became very clear to me that different things apply to different people...that bisexuality may be a part of a person, but that does not dictate who they are or how they wish to live their life. That is why I hate labels...I hate that because someone states a sexual preference that others assume certain things go along with the package.

Wouldn't life be easier if we lived in a world where people were allowed to love who they chose to love, to have sex with who they were sexually attracted to and to have relationships that suited the individuals involved instead of having to conform to what a segment of our society deems to be normal? Ok...I admit...I am being a bit of a Pollyanna here...but one can always wish can't they? And I certainly didn't mean to go off on a rant here (yeah right...those of you who know me are probably laughing at that statement as we speak!:cutelaugh LOL!) I think I better quit before I start sounding too preachy!:soapbox:LOL! I've had my say...added yet another :2cents:...time to step down from my little soapbox and put it back up on the shelf! (until the next time I get myself all worked up over another topic! LOL!!!)

Hugs,
Kate :wiggle2:

[innaminka]

A lot of long and extremely informative answers, which I think all follow the same approximate path.
There really is no connection bteween bi-sexuality and morals.
Each individual/couple have their own rules (or lack thereof) and how each individual adheres to those is always going to be uniquely that person's.

Being str8, gay or bi doesn't matter. One's moral behaviour is up to that person alone, regardless of sexuality.

[allbimyself]

I have to agree 100% with what Kate has said.

Morals are great, if they are your own and your mate's.

I consider myself a moral person. I've always tried to avoid hurting people. I've never been unfaithful to someone I was committed to, and I've never slept with someone without telling them I was bisexual first.

Those are my rules, my morals. I do not need, nor will I try, to live up to someone else's opinion of what is moral.

I guess what I'm saying, Pete, is that if you are doing something that YOU think is immoral, search yourself to discover WHY you think it is immoral. If, as I think is probably the case, your dilemma rises from what someone else believes is morality, then I would suggest you look inward and ask why their opinion of morality is causing you grief.

My favorite saying about morality and sin:

"The only sin lies in hurting others unnecessarily. All else is invented nonsense. Hurting yourself isn't sinful, just stupid."

HTH

Allbi

[grant_33]

PeterH,

You opened such an interesting topic, questioning whether morality and bisexuality can coexist with each other.

The problem with sexual morality (unlike thou shalt not kill, which is still pretty much a sin everywhere) is that there are no simple defining rules anymore, and many categories of morality to choose from. Are you talking about societal morality? Or governmental/legal morality? Or religious morality (which opens the next question: which church's definition?)?

Of the opinions given, I think I agree with Kate's the most. Morality at its very core is the ideals that you decide you want to live and love by. They are the guidelines you decide are for you, and for you and those you love only. It is imperative that you reach some kind of understanding with those you love for how and who you are going to love, and with that understanding, you now have your "morality." Simple as that. Anything else and you may be trying to live by some arbitrary system of rules you don't agree with.

On another note, we need to work on getting you a Dutch flag for your name when it appears on the site. All the other nationalities are represented; Holland should be too.

Another aside, nice job by the Dutch speed-skating contingent at the Olympics (you weren't in the band, were you!?).

C

[PeterH]

Dear all,

thank you all so very much for responding to this thread. Your words have helped tremendously, as they always do!!!!
I have stopped worrying, so now I can go back to being my own, philosophical self :)
Yes living by your own morals, that is a good point. However, (and here I get philosophical), others have their morals too, and they're not necessarily less true than your own. I suppose the key to it is to be open and discuss the issue with those who are affected by your moral choices. But, as I found out yesterday, it's also a good thing to discuss them with those near to you. I came out to my eldest sister a few days ago, and she called me yesterday and told me that she had had a hard time accepting my bisexuality morally. We are quite close, but she said that, were it not for some things I said, she would have felt less close to me now. I would have found it very hard to loose that closeness, I even found it hard to find out I could have lost it.
What this seems to show is that our moral choices affect our relationships with people, even if they're not immediately affected by those choices. One can easily say: I don't care what Joe down the street thinks of me, but to be honest, I'd much prefer to have Joe as my friend. So part of the key is to also discuss our moral choices with those who see the effects of those choices, or we might loose a valuable friendship.

Rumple4skin wrote "On the other side of the coin I have heard the idea of being bi in a monogamous relationship equated to being half celibate."

Rumple, it was me who coined that expression :). Just to make sure: I was not saying that it is, but was thinking that it might be in some cases, and that this would affect the whole monogamy issue. I still couldn't say if it is, or isn't. I do try to be open to the possibility that it might be for some people.
:offtopic: Actually, I haven't even decided what being bi means in my case. That is, I know what I feel, but not how to give it a place in my life. But that's for another thread. Actually, I am thinking about starting one on "finding the perfect match" (honestly!!!)



On another note, we need to work on getting you a Dutch flag for your name when it appears on the site. All the other nationalities are represented; Holland should be too.

Another aside, nice job by the Dutch speed-skating contingent at the Olympics (you weren't in the band, were you!?).

C

Thank you Grant!! I'm not quite sure what being in the band means, but I'm pretty sure I wasn't :)

[grant_33]

Very good points made, PeterH. Morality within a relationship is one thing, morality within the confines of a community or society is quite another.

You see why many bi's and gays elect to stay closeted. Once you come out, you now have these family/community/society morality issues to deal with.
It is truly unfortunate that people choose to focus more on the label (or color or religion) than they do on the person, but that is the world in which we all still live. I dare say that you are exactly the same person that your sister has always known; but now that you are "bisexual," you are all the sudden different? And your neighbor Joe, now that you are "bisexual," should think differently of you than he thought of you yesterday?

The one thing I think you must understand is that you can't control how people think of you. As much as you want your sister's approval and your neighbor Joe's friendship, you can't control their attitudes and opinions about bisexuality and about bisexuals. What you can control is how you live your life. Live with dignity and integrity, regardless of your sexuality, and you will be able to hold your head high and perhaps also change people's opinions about what being bisexual means.

Hopefully, everything will work out for you with your sister and your family, and your coming out experience won't be too difficult. I wish you much luck.

As for the band, some of our Olympic coverage here in the States showed a band of perhaps 15 or so people, dressed in orange, obviously Dutch, that played and entertained the crowds at the speed-skating venue in Torino. Apparently, they've been getting together for the past few Olympics, mainly to support the Dutch team, but also doing what the Dutch do best; getting along with everyone and supporting all the competitors and having a great time.

take care,
G

[csrakate]

Rumple4skin wrote "On the other side of the coin I have heard the idea of being bi in a monogamous relationship equated to being half celibate."

Rumple, it was me who coined that expression :). Just to make sure: I was not saying that it is, but was thinking that it might be in some cases, and that this would affect the whole monogamy issue. I still couldn't say if it is, or isn't. I do try to be open to the possibility that it might be for some people.

Peter,
Don't worry...I don't have my soapbox back out...just wanted to share a bit about what you said in the above quote, LOL!

I am sure that for many, not being able to fulfill a sexual desire can most assuredly be commensurate to being half-celibate and I recognize that it is a painful and frustrating situation for these people to be in. This subject has also been discussed a great deal on this site...and at times I feel that it goes on ad nauseum because there never seems to be a consensus as to the reasons behind these feelings. I still find it difficult to believe that it is simply a part of being bisexual when it comes to monogamy. Once again I think a lot of it has to do with personal choice, personal lifestyle and personal needs. If an individual sees monogamy as being half celibate and feels that it is necessary to seek something outside of a marriage or a committed relationship, that is the decision of that person alone...but not a character trait of an entire group of people who have a common trait such as bisexuality. God knows that many heterosexuals find it difficult to be monogamous as well..but it certainly isn't a preference for all. Just another :2cents:! If I keep this up, I might as well start running a tab!! LOL!

Hugs,
Kate

[inthewoods]

I am not sure if this will answer any one's questions but in this thread I see Marriage, morality, gay and bisexual talked about. I had spent more than 30 years as a Biblical researcher. I had spent a lot of time studying marriage in the Bible. The important things in a marriage is commitment or promise, that is basicly what marriage is. Marriage never had anything to do with a priest or church or a government. Marriage was a very private affair between families and the local community, without church and government. The only time government got involved in a marriage is when there was a divorce, yes divorce has been around for thousands of years.
Marriage was in fact a man purchasing his bride from her father by money or material things. The bride in return gave a gift to the groom that showed she excepts. This was the promise that the groom and the bride made to be husband and wife, a promise before God not man. Standing before a priest to get married has only been around for about the last 700 years and it was the Roman Cathlic government that started it. Many men had more than one wife prior to the cathlics taking control of marriage and having more than one wife was exceptable to God. You will not find any where in the Bible where God changed the rules of marriage, that was done by the cathlic church.
So making a choice to have sex outside a marriage without your spouses knowledge is a very big mistake with moral issues. Is it ok for a husband and wife to both agree to add a third person for sexual reasons? I cannot say if it is right or wrong but if the two agree then it is between the two and God and no one else. Myself, I hate it when someone brakes their promise to their spouse but I have to say I do not have a problem when the two both agree on sexual partners outside the marriage.
The Bible also speaks of homosexualality. But I question in what contexts? In the book of Romans it talks about gays and lesbians but it is not clear on who it is talking about. Research shows that the Roman Empire was very big into gay, lesbian orgies, this includes the cathlic church. Many of these orgies had religous purpose in worshiping gods. The Bible also talks about masturbation, and many churches say masturbating is wrong. But the Bible does not say that it is wrong. The examples of masturbation spoken of in the Bible is talking about masturbation in the worship of other gods. Woman used dildo's made from solid gold in referance to having sex with gods. This is what God called wrong not masturbating. So now we know that sex was used in worship of other gods and we know that God hates idol worshop.
We also know that being gay, lesbian or bisexual is not a mental choice but rather the way some people are hardwired from the start. There are some people that ingage in same sex sexual acts for money and other things that are not gay, lesbian or bisexual, mmmmm, what does Romans say again?
Knowing that some people are gay, lesbian or bisexual because that is how they were born and have no control over it and saying that God hates these people would be the same thing as saying God hates people that are born retarded or people that are born with any other birth defects. The Bible teaches us to love and respect all, even our enimies. I will give 50% of my monthly earnings to anyone that can show me where in the Bible it says to hate gays, lesbians or bisexuals and I am a man of my word.
If a man or a woman have the need to have a same sex partner then that is between them and God, I do not think there is a moral issue here. But I do question why gays and lesbians want the churches and government to control their relationships like other marriages. Concerning bisexuals in a man and woman marriage I can not say if there is a moral issue or not, if one or both have a desire because of the way they are born and the two agree, can it be wrong? I can only say that it is between you and God not society.
Once we label people for hate that have no control over how they have been concieved in the womb then we make ourselves no better than people like Adolf Hitler.