Why Girls don’t count?

[Mr. X]

I hear many women say the following:

“I always tell the men that I'm in a relationship with that I'm bisexual, and I don't mess around with other men but that "girls don't count".”

One thing that I find very respectful about most people is that they set this as an expectation before the relationship starts. So once this is accepted by the other party all should be well at that point as long as there is open and honest communication.


I am looking for what drives this view point, I am not looking for anyone to feel as if they need to defend them selves. What I am looking for are the different thoughts on how you view relationships verses sexuality. I just have never had anyone I guess explain why they view it this way. I understand that people should not have to explain them selves but if someone like my self was looking for other peoples thoughts on the subject, how else can I get them answered.

I am I truly asking people to compare apples to oranges? Forgive me as I am still a bit ignorant. Also I would like to add that this is fine but I am looking for more understanding then I have now.

Thanks so much

[_Joe_]

Well I'm not sure a guy going in can say "guys don't count"

Maybe it's this society's average idea that two girls making out is hotter than two guys, that lesbians kissing on stage in front of an audience has been seen and done but oh wait, not men because ... well, who knows why.

Seriously... you see it everywhere. The man gets shafted!

[Mr. X]

Joe that may be closer to being what's "underneight" the answer lol.

But perhaps there are some others out there that have said this to there male partners and could explain their thoughts on this...for a lack of a better word explanation for why Girls don't count?

[DiamondDog]

It's their homophobia showing through.

Saying how sex/relationships with women don't count to them, and that the only real or valid sex or relationships are those with men where they appear heterosexual.

As far as women making out, kissing, and dyke sex goes nothing could be more boring to me and I don't get why lots of men claim that they like it or enjoy watching lesbian sex or even two women kiss.

It doesn't do anything sexual for me at all if that makes sense.

[jem_is_bi]

It's their homophobia showing through.

Saying how sex/relationships with women don't count to them, and that the only real or valid sex or relationships are those with men where they appear heterosexual.

As far as women making out, kissing, and dyke sex goes nothing could be more boring to me and I don't get why lots of men claim that they like it or enjoy watching lesbian sex or even two women kiss.

It doesn't do anything sexual for me at all if that makes sense.

I agree totally. But, I am mostly homosexual, so my opinion is biased.
However, it seems that some bisexual and heterosexual men do get turned-on by women-woman sex. Maybe, they think that it can easily turn it into a MFF 3some for them.
I don't want to deprive them of a really fun fantasy. However, I do not like it when heterosexuals are more than happy to ensure that there are very significant social and even legal penalties for me for having a different fantasy.

[vittoria]

VERILY!:bigrin::cool:

[MissyMissy]

in relationships i think everyone counts. to say one sex doesn't well it confuses me. i am upfront about my needs to my partner(s). just because i may be with a woman it doesn't mean i should not be honest with my other partner(s).

[Mr. X]

Thanks everyone for the responses.

Let me add this to my questions:

Take a straight guy is in a relationship with a bi-sexual women. The women believes that if she where to sleep with another man that would be cheating but if she sleeps with a women she does not consider that cheating.

To clarify I am more then willing to allow her express her sexually with women but I am curious to the view of one be cheating and not the other. I am perhaps a little confused on the definition of the relationship by what she considers. Is it because her relationships can only be with men - thats what she has said.

Yes it is understood that the agreement is mutual and understood however getting clarification for the reasoning of why she doesn't think is not cheating is not. It's just a little thing that I don't understand and want to very much. I would like to add this in no way upsets me it's just the OCD in me

Any insight or thoughts?

[DiamondDog]

Thanks everyone for the responses.

Let me add this to my questions:

Take a straight guy is in a relationship with a bi-sexual women. The women believes that if she where to sleep with another man that would be cheating but if she sleeps with a women she does not consider that cheating.

To clarify I am more then willing to allow her express her sexually with women but I am curious to the view of one be cheating and not the other. I am perhaps a little confused on the definition of the relationship by what she considers. Is it because her relationships can only be with men - thats what she has said.

Yes it is understood that the agreement is mutual and understood however getting clarification for the reasoning of why she doesn't think is not cheating is not. It's just a little thing that I don't understand and want to very much. I would like to add this in no way upsets me it's just the OCD in me

Any insight or thoughts?

Cheating is cheating no matter who it's with and whatever their gender is.

If two people have set up a relationship where it's closed and not open, and one person says how sex with the same gender somehow isn't cheating they're only trying to make up excuses or justifications for their own cheating and infidelity.

[Annika L]

It's their homophobia showing through.

Saying how sex/relationships with women don't count to them, and that the only real or valid sex or relationships are those with men where they appear heterosexual.

As far as women making out, kissing, and dyke sex goes nothing could be more boring to me and I don't get why lots of men claim that they like it or enjoy watching lesbian sex or even two women kiss.

It doesn't do anything sexual for me at all if that makes sense.

DD, I think your observation about homophobia is right on. People aggravatingly don't see a same-sex relationship as real.

But your comments following that are just silly: you don't get why lots of men claim they are aroused by FF sex? Perhaps it's because they are? Could it be? Lots of people like okra. I can't stand it, but I don't question why lots of people claim to like it...for reasons I don't need to understand, they just like it! (Note: I am in no way likening my relationship to okra :tong:)

To the OP: cheating is a function of the rules. In your case, if a MF couple agrees that their relationship is to be monogamous, then fooling around with *anyone* outside that relationship is cheating. If that couple agrees that same-sex fooling around is ok, then same-sex fooling around is not cheating. If they agree that one of them can fool around with anyone they want, and the other person can't, then if that other person fools around with anyone, that's cheating (of course, I don't know why they'd have agreed to that to begin with, but that's another issue).

So it seems to me that your real question is why so many people propose or buy into a rule that says same-sex fooling around is ok. I think DD's homophobia observation is a good one, and is part of the explanation in many cases. But I'll hazard an extension to that observation: I think that at some level, same-sex relationships may be devalued (or viewed as safe) precisely because there is no risk of pregnancy. Humans are governed heavily by their biology, and both men and woman are threatened by the possibility of their partner conceiving with a person outside the relationship. This immediately puts FF and MM relationships into a "safer" category. I doubt this completely explains the phenomenon, but I find it a compelling thought.

[Apleasureseeker]

This drives me crazy, too, but I see it from a very different standpoint. Girls, especially the ones under 30, seem to be obsessed with what other people think of them, and their sexual morality is right out of the fifties. So they get into lesbian hookups and see it as a technical loophole, as long as thay insist they're straight. Now, it's perfectly normal for girls and guys under 30 to want to explore sexually, and I really don't think it's healthy for people to throw themselves into serious relationship without a bit of experience. But it seems like a lot of girls want ot get attached first for formality's sake. It's been my experience that some girls with strong sexual drives will enter into a "relationship" with a gut they know will forgive them, and then have sex with others, using him as a cover. Other girls will use the "girls don't count" scam. Some of those are lesbians or bisexuals, but some don't neccessarily like girls, it's just the only way they can justify thier sexual to themselves.

At the same time, I don't think that a littl exploration straight or bi, means anything. I'd guess nearly everybody has had a little same sex exploration at some point in their lives, usally as a kid, but i don't think it means anything.

I've dated a couple of genuinely bisexual girls, and one who tries the "girls don't count" scam on my. My reply was "that's so cool! In that case girls don't count--for both of us." She didn't like it much when she'd have to agree to let me fuck around, too. So I guess for other girls, it's a power issue. The genuine bisex girls used to get pissed off by the "technical bi-gals," since they really were just lookng for sex, like college boys. What pisses me off about these lovelies is that they usually insist they don't need protection. I guess chlamydia, yeast infections, herpes, and all that other contagion respects girls too much.

[Bluebiyou]

I think it's pretty simple.
The same reason a bi-man can say to his girlfriend/wife "men don't count",
or another bi-man can say to his boyfriend/husband "girls don't count".
The primary sexual and emotional bond is between the primary couple.
The bi person has chosen his/her primary relationship.
The "men/girls don't count" is clearly intended as a secondary relationship. Of course this is not a guarantee that the 'secondary relationship' won't become the primary... but speaking for myself and many (not all) bisexuals I've observed, there is a primary attraction emotional/sexual to one gender, and secondary attraction to the other gender.
I think its totally 'above board' to walk into a relationship stating your intentions of sexual/emotional fidelity.
Folks who are 'completely straight' or 'completely gay' are less likely to understand this or accept this because it opens a whole world of ambiguity to them. Ambiguity is usually less comfortable than absolute; black and white.

[darkeyes]

Maths wos neva me strong suit...;)

[onewhocares]

Oh Miss Frances...your response was TOO funny!

[MarieDelta]

heh gonna put in my two bits here-

I think its a way of rationalizing the cheating-

Those of us who have watched our weight remember the old adage about calories consumed standing 'not counting.' IMHO I think this is the same thing, a way of having your cake and eating it too.

Human beings have marvelous brains that are capable of rationlizing anything that they want into 'being legal.'

An old Russian saying I recall goes something like: 'The Church is near , but the roads are icy. The Tavern is far, I'll walk carefully.'


If the agreement is to be monogamous , then it should be monogamous, as Annika so succinctly stated. The agreement between the two should be honored, no matter wheather its totally open or selectively open, or completly monogamous. Marriage(or any LTR, IMHO) is a contract, contracts require a meeting of the minds. If there is no meeting of the minds, there can be no contract.

[monk93]

If the agreement is to be monogamous , then it should be monogamous, as Annika so succinctly stated. The agreement between the two should be honored, no matter wheather its totally open or selectively open, or completly monogamous. Marriage(or any LTR, IMHO) is a contract, contracts require a meeting of the minds. If there is no meeting of the minds, there can be no contract.


Beautifully put Marie.

My husband and I have had many discussions about this issue. We came into the relationship being completely honest with each other and have continued that streak for nearly 3 years. While I do not currently have a "girlfriend" we know that one day I will want one, so we continue to discuss: pros/cons, needs/wants, his place in that relationship, etc. I know exactly where he stands and he knows exactly where I stand, no surprises.

Neither of us consider it cheating because there is no lying. For it to be cheating (imo) there has to be a choice made to be deceitful and/or an extreme lack of honest and open communication. Just my :2cents:

[Morkeleb13]

I actually find myself asking the same question... to myself. I am a bisexual female and I am in a committed relationship with a man. I have had serious relationships with women and men in the past but I didn't really understand that I was bisexual until very recently. I would never be with another man but when I'm with women I don't think of it as cheating, and I'm not really sure why because I consider a relationship with two females just as valid as a relationship between a man and a woman. In my mind the love I have towards men and women in no way overlaps and doesn't diminish the love I feel for the other person. I think that it's great that you are accepting and open of her situation. I think that monk makes a good point about there being no cheating because there is no lying. I've tried being open with my boyfriend but he just won't hear it. I know it will be an issue for me someday as well. I don't know that I could ever feel completely fulfilled with only one sex...

[Mr. X]

Thanks once again everyone for your comments :tong:

Some things I would like to say, I agree Bluebiyou with Ambiguity is usually less comfortable than absolute; black and white. As being a straight guy I do have difficulty with understanding this. It’s no ones fault being who they are or identifying with there sexual orientation. That may or may not be a life long process for some.

I have the same understanding but more so the agreement of monk93 and her husband, though I admit it has taken some time before I got there.

My thoughts are that any relationship is valid MF MM FF etc etc and so on. But sometimes I feel that when viewing relations that involve two people plus one that the partner that does not have the extra person has to fit into or understand their place in that relationship.

Is it naive to say that because the other is bisexual and I am not its only my job to find or learn to my place in the relationship? Well the answer is yes of course I do. In my very limited experience within my own relationship with my wife and other friends who have bi-sexual partners I see that the straight partners are asked a lot as compared to the bi-sexual partners

But perhaps I am unfair in that view … I do not know if that is because I have never been in this type of relationship before and do not posses the needed experience. Is it because I am not bi-sexual and there for will never understand… or is it simply that defining roles and rules of a relationship will always be made be those in that relationship and no one outside has any say because they are not apart of it…ummmm.

Anyway I can’t thank all of you enough for your responses. The time you all take is valued and is appreciated.

[silkboxerslntx]

I am a bi male with a bi wife. our rule is sex is playtime. we are allowed to play with those of the same sex alone or play with couples as a couple. if we watn to play with opposite sex we both have to be present.


here is our rule...and we think it covers this topic completely.

love is for us...period.


anyone else involved is just for sex, and needs to be informed up front that they are a plaything to us.

when the fun is over we go home with/to each other. we remain best friends and lovers.

if one of us decides we have feelings for another person outside our relationship, then he/she will be honest and leave the relationship.

this is non-negotiable in our relationship and so far has been the trumping factor in any discrepancies .

any feelings are reserved for each other....period....no exceptions...or else.

[twisted sister]

as a female have to agree 100% with silk. our primary focus or love if you like is for one and other. has nothing to do with our equipment. sounds horrid butt our playmates are just that. and yes we do make that very clear. so as to the original question: girls or guys don't count cause our relationship cums first. all the rest is just for fun. wish i had a better answer.

sis

[the sacred night]

Cheating is cheating no matter who it's with and whatever their gender is.

If two people have set up a relationship where it's closed and not open, and one person says how sex with the same gender somehow isn't cheating they're only trying to make up excuses or justifications for their own cheating and infidelity.

Everyone has different definitions of cheating, and every relationship is different. If both partners agree, they can set whatever boundaries they wish.

One reason why someone might choose this particular boundary is because her attraction to men is different from her attraction to women and she wants to have both in her life. It might be that her partner satisfies her in every way as far as her attraction to men, but that she still wants that other side (women) even though she isn't going to be with any men besides her partner. This is a perfectly valid choice, as long as both partners are honest with each other about it and agree to it from the beginning. It is equally valid for a man to make a similar choice, again with the agreement of his partner. Or for someone in a serious same-sex relationship to make known the desire for the opposite sex outside the relationship. Each couple decides what they think cheating is and why.

[AdamKadmon43]

I guess none of this pertains to me since I don't got no one to cheat on anyhow.

[BrotherJack]

I guess none of this pertains to me since I don't got no one to cheat on anyhow.

No, Adam, you just enjoy being rude and breaking hearts

[BrotherJack]

I guess none of this pertains to me since I don't got no one to cheat on anyhow.

Now i know why this lady loves you so dearly and you, me......except when I'm shouting at you.

[BrotherJack]

Now i know why this lady loves you so dearly and you, me......except when I'm shouting at you.

Confused?......You will be!:bigrin:

[Just.Me]

My response to this is that a persons preference is largely determined by their environment. I am bisexual and have never been any other way. I remember being in the 4th grade and knowing I was different and not being bothered by it. I live in a town where there are a plethora of bisexuals, so that I would call the "show-boat" bisexuals and then the ones like me that are just this way. Now because of the prevalence of bisexuality here many of the men from here are conditioned to it and I have never had a problem having a relationship that is male exclusive but I was allowed to be with females albeit sexually or even having relationships with them. This was a non issue.

Now fast forward and I am 24 and married to a strait man that has little to no experience with bisexuality and asked me to give it up for him, which I willingly did though I have never had any experience not being bisexual. I was naive to believe I could drop it like a bad habit but I tried for the love of my life. And two years later it became to big of an underlying issue to ignore anymore and we are working our way through familiarizing him with the life style to see if we can work through this or if it is something that we will never be able to have comfortably. I have not been with any women since I agreed to give it up and will not until WE decide that WE are ready.

To get back on topic though, I do feel that the "girls don't count" idea stems from over saturation of "show-boat" bisexuals that are fucking and sucking for show and the prevalence of many strait men that have no issue with it.

[katieboop]

I agree that its a cultural stereotype that two women together are okay (encouraged even). But all I really have to say on that is that I totally disapprove. Its not okay. Cheating is cheating no matter what set of genitalia is involved. Girls who think that are just trying to have their cake and eat it to, proverbially speaking, and men who agree seem to just want in on the action.

Having said that, I feel that I should add the very statement "Girls don't count" implies monogamy that can be bent to the whim of the user. To the person who mentioned every couple's definition of cheating is different, I agree. However, partners can't nullify rules for cultural norms. If there is an "open" agreement, girls wouldn't count, of course. But if a couple is masquerading as monogamous, girls do, in fact, count.

[TaylorMade]

Because I do not intend to replace the primary relationship with the secondary one.

That's why I say Girls/Boys don't count. If a female is the primary relationship "guys don't count" because that is the secondary relationship. If a male is a primary, vice versa.

Most of the men I have been with understand that as an unwritten rule. Same with some of the women, but. . .if they want it closed, I'll have it closed.

The current situation has it where females are the secondary, and the females I am with understand that; usually because I am the secondary with them too.

There are alot of unwritten social contracts at work, I know.

*Taylor*

[Apleasureseeker]

Because I do not intend to replace the primary relationship with the secondary one.

That's why I say Girls/Boys don't count. If a female is the primary relationship "guys don't count" because that is the secondary relationship. If a male is a primary, vice versa.

There are alot of unwritten social contracts at work, I know.

*Taylor*

With all due respect, that sounds like a lot of hogwash to me. I have no qualms about multiple relationships, whether I'm engaged in them or whether my partner is, but there has to be FULL disclosure. Even casual sex can end up involving serious emotions, so superficial labels like "primary" and "secondary" fade pretty quickly. Especially when engaging in multiple sexual relationships, jealousy and emotional manipulation are almost inevitable. What if you suddenly decide you want your "secondary" to be your primary?"

If you can make it work, good for you, but i've never found it to be that easy and still be respectful.

I'm also wondering what it's like when you're the "secondary?"

[TaylorMade]

With all due respect, that sounds like a lot of hogwash to me. I have no qualms about multiple relationships, whether I'm engaged in them or whether my partner is, but there has to be FULL disclosure. Even casual sex can end up involving serious emotions, so superficial labels like "primary" and "secondary" fade pretty quickly. Especially when engaging in multiple sexual relationships, jealousy and emotional manipulation are almost inevitable. What if you suddenly decide you want your "secondary" to be your primary?"

If you can make it work, good for you, but i've never found it to be that easy and still be respectful.

I'm also wondering what it's like when you're the "secondary?"

That is your perspective and experience. I do not get along as well romantically with women as I do with men, so it is easier to have a woman as a friend with benefits than a girlfriend. I have had girlfriends, but it was not as emotionally fulfilling as it was with a man. So making a secondary a primary isn't something I really see myself doing.

You're assuming I wouldn't tell my primary partner or give him a heads up. . .I do. I wouldn't do anything less than that.

Nor am I saying it's easy. Anyhow - - For me it's just how it is. Most of the time, the woman I am with has a male partner too...so it's kind of a mutual thing , where we go out, we have fun, most times we have sex, some times, we just hang.

*Taylor*

[evilpanda]

My friends sometimes say things that hurt like that, that I wasn't really bi because I hadn't popped my cherry with a guy. After I did (and, in my mind, erased any doubt) some still said it didn't count because I only had ORAL sex with a guy, not anal.

I don't feel the need to justify that. I'm not into butt stuff, at least not now, and I loved being with the guy. He's been a friend for years and I love him very much, but I don't want to be in a relationship with anyone. But, in another universe, I could totally see it happening. :rolleyes:

But, in my mind, that counts as sex and even, in said parallel universe, it would be called lovemaking. He's the seventh person I've been intimate with. It's semantics and, when we deal with alternative sexualities, people are going to have to be willing to adjust our definitions, which, until now, have been defined only by heterosexuals and their quaint little categories.
:flag3:

[nocinderella]

i feel totally repetitive saying this, but when i say im not going to cheat i mean im not going to do anything with anyone but the one im in a relationship with.

my boyfriend didn't understand this at first. he was like, please dont cheat on me... but if you want to be with a girl, all i ask is that you let me know.. no no no.. if im with anyone with him then thats cheating... and i told him that i expected the same. he is bi, so i told him that since he is my boyfriend i expected him to be with me alone...

[DiamondDog]

Because I do not intend to replace the primary relationship with the secondary one.

That's why I say Girls/Boys don't count. If a female is the primary relationship "guys don't count" because that is the secondary relationship. If a male is a primary, vice versa.

Most of the men I have been with understand that as an unwritten rule. Same with some of the women, but. . .if they want it closed, I'll have it closed.

The current situation has it where females are the secondary, and the females I am with understand that; usually because I am the secondary with them too.

There are alot of unwritten social contracts at work, I know.

*Taylor*

That all sounds very confusing and complicated, if it works for you that's fine though.

Does it ever get confusing for you or others?

I hope you ask your partners or at least communicate with them before doing or assuming things. :2cents:

[TaylorMade]

That all sounds very confusing and complicated, if it works for you that's fine though.

Does it ever get confusing for you or others?

I hope you ask your partners or at least communicate with them before doing or assuming things. :2cents:

It's one of those things, if you're in it, you don't think about it.

Not really... and I do talk to my partners.

*Taylor*