Prop 8 and Churches

[Toad82]

(Los Angeles, California) Energized by a comeback win, conservative activists want to apply the same formula they used to outlaw same-sex marriage in California to prevent other states from recognizing gay unions and President-elect Barack Obama from expanding the rights of gays and lesbians.

Leaders of the successful Proposition 8 campaign say an unusual coalition of evangelical Christians, Mormons and Roman Catholics built a majority at the polls Tuesday by harnessing the organizational muscle of churches to a mainstream message about what school children might be taught about gay relationships if the ban failed.

Same-sex marriage bans also won in Arizona and Florida. But in putting together the California victory, the coalition overcame opposition from the state’s political establishment and assumptions about how voters in the famously tolerant state would respond to taking away the rights the state’s highest court granted this spring.

“Everyone told me it could not be done, people do not care about this enough, you will be overwhelmed and you will lose,” said Maggie Gallagher, executive director of the National Organization for Marriage, a New Jersey group that provided seed money early this year to qualify the measure for the ballot.

“This is an issue people care about when they understand what is at stake and we mount a vigorous and visible defense of marriage,” Gallagher said.

Same-sex couples are expected to start marrying next week in Connecticut, the third state after Massachusetts and California where courts have held it was unconstitutional to bar same-sex couples from marrying.

Unlike California, Connecticut does not have an initiative process that would allow voters to override the judicial decision there. So Gallagher said anti-gay marriage groups plan to focus next on New Jersey and New York, where the state legislatures are being lobbied to pass laws legalizing same-sex marriage.

The plan is to mobilize the same religious factions that joined forces in California to deter lawmakers from “taking on this divisive social issue while we are in the middle of a huge financial crisis,” Gallagher said.

Campaign operatives attribute their success to the churches, which served as voter registration centers, phone banks and volunteer recruitment hubs.

Religious institutions also gave Proposition 8’s sponsors an avenue to a range of ethnic voters, including many Democrats, said Mat Staver, who heads the Florida-based Christian legal group Liberty Counsel.

Catholic and evangelical Hispanics and African-American Baptists stood alongside conservative white evangelicals in arguing for traditional marriage. Exit polls showed 70 percent of blacks supported the ban, a far higher percentage than any other race.

“This is an issue that … transcends political ideology, religious affiliations, races and time and history,” said Staver. “It brings people together who ordinarily wouldn’t be sitting at the same table together.”

Gay-right activists attribute their loss in California in large part to overconfidence among Proposition 8 opponents. Although polls showed the measure far behind in mid-September, the Yes-on-8 campaign was raising far more money than its opponents.

“There was a lot of complacency. People didn’t believe it could have been this close, so we had to scramble to raise money.” said Yvette Martinez, political director for Equality for All, the coalition of gay, civil rights and liberal religious groups formed to fight the initiative.

Martinez also blamed a Yes-on-8 TV ad featuring a little girl telling her mother she had learned in school that she could grow up to marry a princess. Spanish-language ads were released on the same theme.

Proposition 8 says nothing about education, but gay-marriage opponents say allowing same-sex weddings would have affected what California public-school students are taught. Gay-rights groups disputed that, noting that the schools already are required to teach tolerance of gays and lesbians.

“Those lies penetrated,” said Martinez. “People believed that we were going to force gay marriage into the classroom, and there is no getting around people wanting to protect their children and to make decisions for their own family.”

Perhaps the most crucial faith-based ingredient of the California campaign was the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Mormon church was invited into the coalition by San Francisco’s Roman Catholic Archbishop George Neiderauer, who previously spent 11 years as bishop of the Catholic diocese of Utah.

Mormons make up less than 2 percent of the California population with a religious preference, but it is widely believed that church members around the country were responsible for a major share of the more than $36 million raised to pass the gay marriage ban.

Gay-marriage opponents say the bipartisan, multiracial alliance that helped Proposition 8 pass could be instrumental in fighting any steps Obama takes as president to expand the rights of gays and lesbians.

“Those can be activated and pressure can be put on senators and congressional leaders who are not as left-leaning as Barack Obama to not follow his agenda,” Staver said.

During his campaign for the White House, Obama pledged to work for repeal of the 1996 federal Defense of Marriage Act, which prevents the federal government from affording Social Security and other benefits to same-sex couples. He also vowed to reverse the Defense Department policy that prevents openly gay people from serving in the military.

Kate Kendell, executive director of the National Center for Lesbian Rights, said she isn’t worried the Proposition 8 campaign has produced a new political juggernaut, noting that the religious denominations that worked together in California have deep theological and spiritual differences.

Kendell, who was raised Mormon, said she was astonished to see black pastors working alongside members of a religion that did not allow blacks to serve as priests until she was in high school.

“Any time a coalition is formed for the expediency of one issue, it is very hard to hold it together,” Kendell said.


I urge anyone reading the above article to read the page in the following link. And if you feel the same way as the owners of the page, sign the petition, as well as send the link on to others. They keep saying it is nothing personal, but it is our lives, how can we see it as anything else? If they want to raise millions to take away rights, I say fine. But when they are doing it with a church tax-exempt status and a non-profit status their side gets to raise money and take deductions while “our” side has to raise more money to make the same. More people will be willing to give to a “charity” and write it off than just give to a political interest. As long as they (the churches) are lobbying for state propositions they should be denied tax-exempt status.

http://www.mormonsstoleourrights.com/


RJ:lokai:

[12voltman59]

I signed it-and I sure hope that the LDS church does lose it's tax exempt status over this issue---it might be that they won a battle only to lose the war!!!

[Toad82]

I signed it-and I sure hope that the LDS church does lose it's tax exempt status over this issue---it might be that they won a battle only to lose the war!!!

I hope so. The fact they now want to organize with other faiths and go from state to state and then maybe country to country and do the same thing scares me.


RJ:lokai:

[allbimyself]

I usually don't sign online petitions. I've made an exception in this case. I'll admit that I was ignorant that so many churches were involved in the Prop 8 fight prior to the election. (That was easy from this far away and my erroneous assumption that such a thing wouldn't pass in California.)

On hearing of the involvement of so many churches, not just the LDS, my immediate reaction was along the lines of those organizing the petition. How is it that I can not deduct political contributions from my taxes, but organizations that enjoy tax-exempt status can pour dollars into a political campaign? This isn't a free speech issue as I'm sure many will claim, it's simply a matter of leveling the playing field, taking away the bullhorn that tax-free political spending given to churches have that no other political organization has. Any organization that can accept tax-free donations from individuals and then spend that money in support of political agendas without also paying taxes itself has a HUGE advantage over other organizations.

If they want to preach their hate to the congregations, that's their business. If, however, they want to spend money influencing politics, they have crossed the line into being a PAC and should lose their tax-exempt status.

[Falke]

I just find it ironic that they, the Mormons, would choose to deny others their rights to live as they wish. Consitering they had to migrate to Salt Lake to even live as they wish to begin with. Same goes with the Christian sects in general. There was a time that Christians did have to live the same way that gays did...underground for fear of persecution. It's funny how people forget that...

[FalconAngel]

......and I sure hope that the LDS church does lose it's tax exempt status over this issue---it might be that they won a battle only to lose the war!!!

Signed it as well. And we can only hope that every church that has funded these unconstitutional laws loses their tax exempt status.

The only problem with that, though, is in the long run it may work against us all. If they lose the tax exempt status, then they are free to do what they please; which means that they can lobby, unabated, against the 1st amendment and further tear away at our nation's founding principles.

What needs to happen is that a Constitutional amendment needs to be passed that no law may be voted on or enacted until after it has passed constitutional muster.

A law like that would prevent idiotic measures like prop 8 or other equally biased and unconstitutional laws from passing while still allowing reasonable bills to go through the rest of the process to become law.

[Falke]

What needs to happen is that a Constitutional amendment needs to be passed that no law may be voted on or enacted until after it has passed constitutional muster.

I have said this for years...

[Toad82]

I usually don't sign online petitions. I've made an exception in this case. I'll admit that I was ignorant that so many churches were involved in the Prop 8 fight prior to the election. (That was easy from this far away and my erroneous assumption that such a thing wouldn't pass in California.)

On hearing of the involvement of so many churches, not just the LDS, my immediate reaction was along the lines of those organizing the petition. How is it that I can not deduct political contributions from my taxes, but organizations that enjoy tax-exempt status can pour dollars into a political campaign? This isn't a free speech issue as I'm sure many will claim, it's simply a matter of leveling the playing field, taking away the bullhorn that tax-free political spending given to churches have that no other political organization has. Any organization that can accept tax-free donations from individuals and then spend that money in support of political agendas without also paying taxes itself has a HUGE advantage over other organizations.

If they want to preach their hate to the congregations, that's their business. If, however, they want to spend money influencing politics, they have crossed the line into being a PAC and should lose their tax-exempt status.


I too usually don't sign online petitions, but I figured this was more important than my personal beliefs about them. It amazes me that more people are not at least a bit enraged by what they have and are trying to get away with. Its not just about the money issue for me, but also the separation of church and state which this kind of thing is also in clear violation of. Separation of church and state is not just about the government staying out peoples religion, but also of religion not trying to take over government, which in this area they are trying to do.


RJ:lokai:

[Toad82]

The only problem with that, though, is in the long run it may work against us all. If they lose the tax exempt status, then they are free to do what they please; which means that they can lobby, unabated, against the 1st amendment and further tear away at our nation's founding principles.

They only get the tax exempt status because they are a church, don’t they? I am by far from having a great understanding of our tax system, but from the research I have did I was under the thought that they got tax exempt status because they are a church and 501(c)(3) status because they are a non profit organization. In a way they are playing the field and getting exempt twice. Does anyone know if I am wrong in my thinking?

Falcon: I get where you’re coming from, but don’t you think they are too traditional to want to call their church anything other than a church. Maybe that is a way to get “them” to understand why “we” want it called a marriage and not just a union.


RJ:lokai:

[FalconAngel]

Falcon: I get where you’re coming from, but don’t you think they are too traditional to want to call their church anything other than a church. Maybe that is a way to get “them” to understand why “we” want it called a marriage and not just a union.RJ:lokai:

History has shown that tradition is easily modified by the church if that tradition gets in the way of power and control. Just look at what the church did to Christ's teachings to get conversions and power over the people during the middle ages.

They even attacked their own (protestant) religion to gain and maintain that power. Reference the 30 years war as proof.

Ever since Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire, it has been about power and control. That is the only tradition that these people are really sticking to.

Their actions are not hard to predict once you know their history.

[Toad82]

History has shown that tradition is easily modified by the church if that tradition gets in the way of power and control. Just look at what the church did to Christ's teachings to get conversions and power over the people during the middle ages.

They even attacked their own (protestant) religion to gain and maintain that power. Reference the 30 years war as proof.

Ever since Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire, it has been about power and control. That is the only tradition that these people are really sticking to.

Their actions are not hard to predict once you know their history.

I agree with what you said, but I think it would be a bit harder to change things like that now a days. But honestly I don't really follow the thinking of the theists.

[FalconAngel]

I agree with what you said, but I think it would be a bit harder to change things like that now a days. But honestly I don't really follow the thinking of the theists.

Hi Toad.
Actually, I don't care about the theists, Atheists, Christians, even my own religion as far as the subject of religion and what they do. All that matters on the whole subject is if they are staying within the spirit of the law and whether or not they are trying to force their religion's doctrine on the rest of the nation.

In this particular respect I guess one would call me a Constitutionalist.

I am a firm believer in the Constitution and what it represents. I support all measures that must be taken to protect the rights created by that document, even protecting the rights of those same Dominion Christians, as long as they stay within the law and the Constitution.

Fact of the matter, the problem arises when one group says that their way is the only way and nothing else and no one else matters.

That is the real issue in all of this. As far as I see it, the LDS and everyone who supported Prop 8 and all of the various "DOMA" laws should be tried as traitors. They have taken rights away from citizens because of their sexuality, effectively forcing them to live a lie should they wish to marry at all.

They took action to disassemble the 1st and 14th amendments to the US Constitution. That is an act of treason the way I, as a veteran, see it.

As US citizens we have a lot of rights.
But along with those rights is an inherent responsibility.
That responsibility is to treat each other with the same respect that we wish to receive, obey the laws that are in compliance with the Constitution and to understand what those rights, as laid out in our Constitution and it's amendments, mean. It is written in plain and simple language so as to eliminate confusion.

But the LDS and other Dominion Christians have decided to interpret that Constitution through their religion, thinking that this is a Christian nation, when it is a secular nation.

Those traitors in the LDS and their treasonous supporters broke that compact, that they have as US citizens, and should be penalized accordingly. This should include the dis-assembly of their church structure, surrender their church property, and all church assets, to the people of the United States. They broke faith with their nation's founding principles.

The slap on the wrist that they will probably get from the IRS will not deter them from doing this again, but serious damage to their church's finances and ability to regain that financial power might just teach them humility enough to not try it again (at least for a generation or two).

They could get along just fine with us all, if only they would keep their religion out of government.

[Falke]

Hi Toad.
Actually, I don't care about the theists, Atheists, Christians, even my own religion as far as the subject of religion and what they do. All that matters on the whole subject is if they are staying within the spirit of the law and whether or not they are trying to force their religion's doctrine on the rest of the nation.

In this particular respect I guess one would call me a Constitutionalist.

I am a firm believer in the Constitution and what it represents. I support all measures that must be taken to protect the rights created by that document, even protecting the rights of those same Dominion Christians, as long as they stay within the law and the Constitution.

Fact of the matter, the problem arises when one group says that their way is the only way and nothing else and no one else matters.

That is the real issue in all of this. As far as I see it, the LDS and everyone who supported Prop 8 and all of the various "DOMA" laws should be tried as traitors. They have taken rights away from citizens because of their sexuality, effectively forcing them to live a lie should they wish to marry at all.

They took action to disassemble the 1st and 14th amendments to the US Constitution. That is an act of treason the way I, as a veteran, see it.

As US citizens we have a lot of rights.
But along with those rights is an inherent responsibility.
That responsibility is to treat each other with the same respect that we wish to receive, obey the laws that are in compliance with the Constitution and to understand what those rights, as laid out in our Constitution and it's amendments, mean. It is written in plain and simple language so as to eliminate confusion.

But the LDS and other Dominion Christians have decided to interpret that Constitution through their religion, thinking that this is a Christian nation, when it is a secular nation.

Those traitors in the LDS and their treasonous supporters broke that compact, that they have as US citizens, and should be penalized accordingly. This should include the dis-assembly of their church structure, surrender their church property, and all church assets, to the people of the United States. They broke faith with their nation's founding principles.

The slap on the wrist that they will probably get from the IRS will not deter them from doing this again, but serious damage to their church's finances and ability to regain that financial power might just teach them humility enough to not try it again (at least for a generation or two).

They could get along just fine with us all, if only they would keep their religion out of government.



Remind me to buy you a beer should we ever cross paths.

[Toad82]

Well said Falcon.

[the sacred night]

I signed! I was already mad because this morning I got one of those "we need prayer in schools and God in the government and look our country is going to hell in a handbasket because we stopped those things" emails from my parents. I was only too happy to take action.

[elian]

I usually DON'T fill in anonymous boxes that say "what's your Email?" but I did in this case.

[LadyOfTheLake]

I signed it-and I sure hope that the LDS church does lose it's tax exempt status over this issue---it might be that they won a battle only to lose the war!!!

I am really quite surprised that The LDS church has time to get involved with this issue considering that they have spent so much of their efforts lately trying to "locate" and posthumously "Baptize" Jewish holocaust victims.

All religions are weird.... some or just weirder than others.

[Toad82]

Even more of a reason to stand up for ourselves.

http://www.365gay.com/news/mormons-began-plotting-against-gay-marriage-for-decade-memo-shows/


They have also already came out and said they will be trying what they did with Prop 8 in Connecticut. From state to state they are trying to cut away the rights of those that don’t believe the same as them.


RJ:lokai:

[12voltman59]

Not only is the Mormon Church getting involved in this area---so is the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church is also conducting a major campaign to "finally rid America of the evil of abortion!"

They are putting in millions of church funds to this end---it seems to me that both the Mormon and Catholic churches have. with this increased level of open advocacy regarding these isuses--- have stepped across the line from merely being religious faiths with their dogmas, teachings, etc. regarding these and other issues---to being glorified advocacy groups----

I have been a lapsed Catholic---with a long time love/hate relationship---but I guess that since they have some out with a series of advertisements in major US newspapers in recent months stating their positions on abortion--I am no longer a Catholic based upon this one line in an ad: "A Catholic cannot vote for a candidate that takes a position in favor of an intrinsic evil, such as abortion or racism."

If that is the case---then so be it!! (obviously I voted for a candidate who supports abortion rights or at least does not favor bannig them--not a racist one since I voted for Barack Obama)

As the Church has also long taught us: "Follow your conscience."

My conscience tells me that I have to be in support of issues and candidates that extend the most amount of rights to the most amount of people---as I have said before on both same-sex marriage and abortion/reproductive rights---I favor both on the grounds that it is a fundamental rights issue--and that America is about extending rights to its citizens---not denying them.

[_Joe_]

More I think about it, the more it steams me. If they used chruch money to drive politics, they should lose their tax status.

Well, on the iPhone I read how Utah/Mormon church is promoting gay union rights to come into the next year, because they agree that gay/lesbian/bi have rights... just not the right to marry. Well, now I can't find that darn link.

However stumbled onto how there is a boycott of the Sundance Festival in progress which is a huge amount of money for them..

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27600396/

Anyway, here found the link i was looking for.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27666295/


SALT LAKE CITY - Gay-rights activists see opportunities for their cause in Utah thanks to Mormon church officials, who strongly supported California's proposition denying same-sex couples the right to marry but said they did not object to granting those couples certain other rights.

The advocacy group Equality Utah is asking The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to support several bills that will be submitted to the Legislature supporting rights for the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender community.



Well, a full read tells me this... They realized 'holy crap we pissed them off...we gotta give them some sort of leadway, just not the entire way".


No matter I say. strip them of their tax exempt status. In these economic times though they may end up behind the auto industry for a bailout ><

[HighEnergy]

I signed it too. I'm also pissed about the RC church and this little tidbit I found.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081113/ap_on_re_us/obama_catholics

You shouldn't have communion until you do pennance for voting for a pro-choice candidate? So, once their born in the "wrong" country, we can bomb their asses, right? And once they are born, who cares if they get healthcare, education, or the right to marry.

As I finally got my pro-life oldest child to understand, I'm not pro-abortion, I'm anti stupid white men in suits deciding anything about MY uterus!

Anyway, I think any church voicing it's opinion on what is a legal issue should lose their 501(c)3.

[FalconAngel]

I signed it too. I'm also pissed about the RC church and this little tidbit I found.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081113/ap_on_re_us/obama_catholics

You shouldn't have communion until you do pennance for voting for a pro-choice candidate? So, once their born in the "wrong" country, we can bomb their asses, right? And once they are born, who cares if they get healthcare, education, or the right to marry.

As I finally got my pro-life oldest child to understand, I'm not pro-abortion, I'm anti stupid white men in suits deciding anything about MY uterus!

Anyway, I think any church voicing it's opinion on what is a legal issue should lose their 501(c)3.

This is how the church will install itself back in government. As long as these groups continue to attempt to violate the constitutional rights of Americans, their power will grow until everyone who is not Christian will become lesser citizens with fewer and fewer rights until they do to everyone who disagrees with them the same thing that Hitler tried to do to the Jews.

And don't say that it can't happen here, because it is happening here. They have had citizens rights violations going back a long way, but we do not stand against them because we figure that it "can't happen here". Well, the passage of amendment 2 in Florida and Prop 8 in California says, in a very loud and clear voice, that it HAS happened.

We must fight back. Not just for our rights, but for everyone's rights. For the protection of those rights. For the destruction of church rule.....once and for all.

Religion MUST stay out of government if this nation is to continue as a free nation.

[TaylorMade]

Whatever you do, do it legally. Threatening people is not going to help. (http://joemygod.blogspot.com/2008/11/you-are-being-watched.html) Perpetuating violence is not going to help. (http://www.kpsplocal2.com/global/story.asp?s=9315303) Intimidation tactics are not going to help. (http://www.peacelovelunges.com/2008/11/12/el-coyote-owner-expresses-regret-over-prop-8-contribution-but-boycott-looms/) And calling black gays the N-word? (http://rodonline.typepad.com/rodonline/2008/11/n-word-and-raci.html) As far as I know what the churches did with Proposition 8 was legal. We may not like it, but I don't think they warrant the violence. What has happened in reaction...at best is beneath us, and at worst. . .becoming the very thing we fear.

Seriously. (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,450884,00.html)

*Taylor*

[Toad82]

Whatever you do, do it legally. Threatening people is not going to help. (http://joemygod.blogspot.com/2008/11/you-are-being-watched.html) Perpetuating violence is not going to help. (http://www.kpsplocal2.com/global/story.asp?s=9315303) Intimidation tactics are not going to help. (http://www.peacelovelunges.com/2008/11/12/el-coyote-owner-expresses-regret-over-prop-8-contribution-but-boycott-looms/) And calling black gays the N-word? (http://rodonline.typepad.com/rodonline/2008/11/n-word-and-raci.html) As far as I know what the churches did with Proposition 8 was legal. We may not like it, but I don't think they warrant the violence. What has happened in reaction...at best is beneath us, and at worst. . .becoming the very thing we fear.

Seriously. (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,450884,00.html)

*Taylor*

I have been following everything that has been happening fairly closely and it truly is sad how some are behaving. I find it nice there are those that are now/again having an emotional response to things, but these few are just making it worse by not thinking it out. As things are going I can’t see a US Supreme Court Justice not retiring or dying within four years making a liberal leaning court. I think if people just stay cool, that before January 20th, 2013 equal marriage will be in place in either more states or all states.


RJ:lokai:

[HighEnergy]

Whatever you do, do it legally. Threatening people is not going to help. (http://joemygod.blogspot.com/2008/11/you-are-being-watched.html) Perpetuating violence is not going to help. (http://www.kpsplocal2.com/global/story.asp?s=9315303) Intimidation tactics are not going to help. (http://www.peacelovelunges.com/2008/11/12/el-coyote-owner-expresses-regret-over-prop-8-contribution-but-boycott-looms/) And calling black gays the N-word? (http://rodonline.typepad.com/rodonline/2008/11/n-word-and-raci.html) As far as I know what the churches did with Proposition 8 was legal. We may not like it, but I don't think they warrant the violence. What has happened in reaction...at best is beneath us, and at worst. . .becoming the very thing we fear.

Seriously. (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,450884,00.html)

*Taylor*

In order to maintain a church's non-profit status, any employee of the church must not state their political views from the pulpit or any other mode of communication to sway the beliefs of it's members toward any political group. In other words, a priest may say who he'll vote for and why to select friends but not during a service, or bible study, newsletter or leader's meeting.

Note that the church may say that abortion is a sin, or homosexuality is a sin, but they may not actively work to change the laws. Pro-life groups are always seperate from the church. They are housed in secular buildings away from the church property. They may not require attendance at a particular church to belong to the pro-life group. So, if in fact the Mormon church did solicit money for Prop 8, they have indeed crossed the line. If they did in fact state from the pulpit, newsletters, etc. to send money to support the law, they did cross the line. Now proving it will be more difficult. If Joe Smoe at the church decided to talk to all his friends at church to get them to send money there's nothing that can be done. But if a church leader solicited funds, then they can lose their non-profit status.

[TaylorMade]

In order to maintain a church's non-profit status, any employee of the church must not state their political views from the pulpit or any other mode of communication to sway the beliefs of it's members toward any political group. In other words, a priest may say who he'll vote for and why to select friends but not during a service, or bible study, newsletter or leader's meeting.

Note that the church may say that abortion is a sin, or homosexuality is a sin, but they may not actively work to change the laws. Pro-life groups are always seperate from the church. They are housed in secular buildings away from the church property. They may not require attendance at a particular church to belong to the pro-life group. So, if in fact the Mormon church did solicit money for Prop 8, they have indeed crossed the line. If they did in fact state from the pulpit, newsletters, etc. to send money to support the law, they did cross the line. Now proving it will be more difficult. If Joe Smoe at the church decided to talk to all his friends at church to get them to send money there's nothing that can be done. But if a church leader solicited funds, then they can lose their non-profit status.

If there is proof of this, then it makes sense. But as you said, it is difficult to prove.

*Taylor*

[darkeyes]

Whatever you do, do it legally. Threatening people is not going to help. (http://joemygod.blogspot.com/2008/11/you-are-being-watched.html) Perpetuating violence is not going to help. (http://www.kpsplocal2.com/global/story.asp?s=9315303) Intimidation tactics are not going to help. (http://www.peacelovelunges.com/2008/11/12/el-coyote-owner-expresses-regret-over-prop-8-contribution-but-boycott-looms/) And calling black gays the N-word? (http://rodonline.typepad.com/rodonline/2008/11/n-word-and-raci.html) As far as I know what the churches did with Proposition 8 was legal. We may not like it, but I don't think they warrant the violence. What has happened in reaction...at best is beneath us, and at worst. . .becoming the very thing we fear.

Seriously. (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,450884,00.html)

*Taylor**Looks sheepish noddin agreement wiv Taylor.. don happen 2 often*. ;)

Peaceful protest an demonstration is the only way 2 go.. ova the las 40 years or so it has gotten us a long way down the road in our quest for acceptance an equality.. we not ther yet as Prop 8 shows but we r makin huge inroads.. we cant blow it now by actin stupid an havin a reputation for violence attached 2 us.. let the bigots act like arsoles.. that plays inta our hands an gets us the kudos, the sympathy an undastandin we need 2 move forward.. but we shud neva incite or intimidate in ne way wich cud b construed as violent.. ther lies the road 2 catastrophe for our cause...

[12voltman59]

At first I was bummed at the win of Prop 8--but if you look at the numbers--the measure only passed by a narrwo margin--taking the long view---the attitude regarding "gays" in at least the American society---has come a long way from where it was a half-century and even a quarter-century ago,

This is gonna be like the abolition of slavery movement--then later "Civil Rights"--you win a few battles----you lose a few---the trend is to go more progressive, open, accepting and inclusive.

It is progress that we now have two states that allow same-sex marriage---hopefully the right will prevail in Connecticut and Mass.

This is one of those things that is a few steps forward--a few steps back--but the march goes on and forward.

"The forces of darkness" as I like to think of those who oppose same-sex marriage--- are on the wrong side of history-----in another generation or so---"gays" will be fully intergrated into the whole of society--and one day---when a kid reads in a high school text book there was a time that gays could not marry--he or she will go "really--why not??--that is crazy----it is no BFD! They do it all the time now!!" Just like we don't think all that much anymore about interracial marriages. It is almost hard to believe they were illegal not all that long ago.

[allbimyself]

In order to maintain a church's non-profit status, any employee of the church must not state their political views from the pulpit or any other mode of communication to sway the beliefs of it's members toward any political group. In other words, a priest may say who he'll vote for and why to select friends but not during a service, or bible study, newsletter or leader's meeting.

Note that the church may say that abortion is a sin, or homosexuality is a sin, but they may not actively work to change the laws. Pro-life groups are always seperate from the church. They are housed in secular buildings away from the church property. They may not require attendance at a particular church to belong to the pro-life group. So, if in fact the Mormon church did solicit money for Prop 8, they have indeed crossed the line. If they did in fact state from the pulpit, newsletters, etc. to send money to support the law, they did cross the line. Now proving it will be more difficult. If Joe Smoe at the church decided to talk to all his friends at church to get them to send money there's nothing that can be done. But if a church leader solicited funds, then they can lose their non-profit status.Sorry, I disagree. They can SAY whatever they want (within free speech limits... e.g. cannot advocate violence). They can even say it on the street.

The problem here is spending church funds to purchase media (TV, print, internet, whatever) to support or oppose a political measure, proposition, candidate, amendment, whatever. Donations to a church are tax deductible. Churches themselves are NOT taxed. Therefore, tax free dollars are used to influence politics. No one... no person, PAC, union, or any other institution can do that. Any church that does that should lose it's tax exempt status AND lose the ability to accept tax-free donations. I'd even go so far as to say that if they suggest members donate to PACs that support their position they are in violation of the establishment clause.

Now, if they want to organize their members to go door-to-door to talk to people about the issue/candidate, that is protected speech. Sorry.

What you are proposing is that we regulate WHY someone supports or opposes a political issue. That is not only impossible, it is very dangerous.

[Cesca]

An old university friend of my partner has had his marriage struck down because of proposition 8. Undeterred he and his partner are coming home in the New Year to cement their relationship under English law. It may not legally be called marriage in this country but it is that in all but name.

When the day comes that in America same sex weddings are allowed by law they intend to renew their vows to each other to solidify the commitment they have to each other.

Proposition 8 should not cause despair but rather a greater determination by the gay and bisexual community to achieve what is rightfully ours.

[TaylorMade]

At first I was bummed at the win of Prop 8--but if you look at the numbers--the measure only passed by a narrwo margin--taking the long view---the attitude regarding "gays" in at least the American society---has come a long way from where it was a half-century and even a quarter-century ago,

This is gonna be like the abolition of slavery movement--then later "Civil Rights"--you win a few battles----you lose a few---the trend is to go more progressive, open, accepting and inclusive.

It is progress that we now have two states that allow same-sex marriage---hopefully the right will prevail in Connecticut and Mass.

This is one of those things that is a few steps forward--a few steps back--but the march goes on and forward.

"The forces of darkness" as I like to think of those who oppose same-sex marriage--- are on the wrong side of history-----in another generation or so---"gays" will be fully intergrated into the whole of society--and one day---when a kid reads in a high school text book there was a time that gays could not marry--he or she will go "really--why not??--that is crazy----it is no BFD! They do it all the time now!!" Just like we don't think all that much anymore about interracial marriages. It is almost hard to believe they were illegal not all that long ago.

After these reactions, I'm not sure I'd want to call the opponents of same sex marriage the "forces of darkness".

This is nothing like the civil rights movement. . .I don't recall such blowback after defeats like this. . .and blacks had to climb up from a further depth than this. . .

Did you read any of the links I posted? Some of these people are calling black gays... THEIR OWN(!!!) the "N" word over this! I repeat, they are using the N word against THEIR OWN KIND!!!

That is a line that has been crossed with that act.

When you go from peaceful protest/pushing via the ballot box to threatening people based on their race and religon. . .you lose the right to moral indignation.

I am proud of the way others in other states have acted (shout out to Florida!). . .but this is what people will remember when they go to vote again.

Don't be suprised if this bites us in the ass.

*Taylor*

[boca.openminded]

Remember many years ago Fort Lauderdale, Florida used to be the hot spot of all the spring breakers? Ever wonder why it isn't any more?

The reason is because the Churches and their leaders of South Florida got together and closed those clubs. They made up stories that this would bring in violence, drugs, prostitution, etc....

I say this because the churches are doing the same thing to Prop 8 as they did to the Fort Lauderdale night life.

I do not know what the Churches have to do with Prop 8. What if you are not catholic or whatever religion is affiliated with these churches? I do not believe in religious groups projecting their beliefs onto others. I do not see other groups (Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc...) doing this...

I think Evangelists are the most liars / twisted people out there. I remember what one said to the America public a few days after 9/11. I wont go into it but it was all bullshit and they only wanted the public to give them money.. They are on a power trip and what they are doing with Prop 8 is another one of their power trips.

It pisses me off....

[TaylorMade]

Remember many years ago Fort Lauderdale, Florida used to be the hot spot of all the spring breakers? Ever wonder why it isn't any more?

The reason is because the Churches and their leaders of South Florida got together and closed those clubs. They made up stories that this would bring in violence, drugs, prostitution, etc....

I say this because the churches are doing the same thing to Prop 8 as they did to the Fort Lauderdale night life.

I do not know what the Churches have to do with Prop 8. What if you are not catholic or whatever religion is affiliated with these churches? I do not believe in religious groups projecting their beliefs onto others. I do not see other groups (Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc...) doing this...

I think Evangelists are the most liars / twisted people out there. I remember what one said to the America public a few days after 9/11. I wont go into it but it was all bullshit and they only wanted the public to give them money.. They are on a power trip and what they are doing with Prop 8 is another one of their power trips.

It pisses me off....

You don't know what the churches have to do with this , but you are ready to condemn them. How is that any different to what they do to us?

*Taylor*

[allbimyself]

After these reactions, I'm not sure I'd want to call the opponents of same sex marriage the "forces of darkness".

This is nothing like the civil rights movement. . .I don't recall such blowback after defeats like this. . .and blacks had to climb up from a further depth than this. . .You weren't around then. Check your history.


Did you read any of the links I posted? Some of these people are calling black gays... THEIR OWN(!!!) the "N" word over this! I repeat, they are using the N word against THEIR OWN KIND!!!

That is a line that has been crossed with that act.And no black person has ever used derogatory terms towards a non-hetero person? Yes, it's despicable. However, condemning everyone that are working for civil rights for non-heteros for the actions of a few is prejudiced and ignorant.


When you go from peaceful protest/pushing via the ballot box to threatening people based on their race and religon. . .you lose the right to moral indignation.Yeah, no black person or Christian has ever used violence against a gay/bi person.

There exist radicals on both sides. If all we can do is point fingers saying "Yeah, but one of YOU PEOPLE did something bad," we will never make progress. Of course, a lack of progress is what the people spreading their lies and mis-truths about gay marriage want...

[TaylorMade]

You weren't around then. Check your history.

And no black person has ever used derogatory terms towards a non-hetero person? Yes, it's despicable. However, condemning everyone that are working for civil rights for non-heteros for the actions of a few is prejudiced and ignorant.

Yeah, no black person or Christian has ever used violence against a gay/bi person.

There exist radicals on both sides. If all we can do is point fingers saying "Yeah, but one of YOU PEOPLE did something bad," we will never make progress. Of course, a lack of progress is what the people spreading their lies and mis-truths about gay marriage want...

So I'm not allowed to recall something I've read ? I have checked my history, and as far as I know most set backs were not greeted with violence of any sort during the main part of the civil rights movement. As far as I know, well intentioned whites were welcomed and even died for their efforts. . .Just because I wasn't around doesn't mean I can't talk about it.

Well, being that this is a community that prided itself on tolerance, to turn on it's own kind and excusing it as equivalence is nothing more than refusing to address the situation at hand : a nasty undercurrent to not just reverse, but silence and potentially destroy our enemies and possibly turn into them.

There is a lack of progress on both sides. . .on one it's evident. The other is still in denial.

*Taylor*

[goldenfinger]

If same sex people wants to marry, why not just move to MA, where it's legal.
Seems simple.:grouphug:

[DiamondDog]

Taylor-I've also been wondering if this will push us back even further? I'm not Roman Catholic or Mormon but I know people who are very Catholic and are big into the politics of the Roman Catholic church.

What did Florida do that you're proud of? I thought they had voted against same gender marriage?

Same gender marriage is something we should be able to have but I think that there are more pressing rights that us queers need more right now.

Such as protection from all harassment/hate crimes, the ability not to be fired from your job or have your home/property taken away because you're LGBT, and other issues as well as the denial of same gender marriage that make us second class citizens.

At least with Obama as the future president we have a chance of these things all happening. :)

[Toad82]

If same sex people wants to marry, why not just move to MA, where it's legal.
Seems simple.:grouphug:

Because we shouldn't have to leave our homes to have a family!

[allbimyself]

So I'm not allowed to recall something I've read ? I have checked my history, and as far as I know most set backs were not greeted with violence of any sort during the main part of the civil rights movement. As far as I know, well intentioned whites were welcomed and even died for their efforts. . .Just because I wasn't around doesn't mean I can't talk about it.My point is that there WAS violence in some cases. Also, has there been violence now? Large scale riots? No, just some idiots shooting off at the mouth.


Well, being that this is a community that prided itself on tolerance, to turn on it's own kind and excusing it as equivalence is nothing more than refusing to address the situation at hand : a nasty undercurrent to not just reverse, but silence and potentially destroy our enemies and possibly turn into them. The community hasn't "turned on its own kind." Individuals in the community have said some nasty things. BIG FUCKING DIFFERENCE!

We've had a few individuals in the LGBT community say some racist things. Shame on them. Even if the exit polls show that African-Americans voted for Prop 8 in much higher numbers than whites it shouldn't be a race issue. However, SHAME ON YOU, for blaming the entire LGBT community for the words of a few. You are just as guilty as they are.

Your position is the same as the white bigots that points to every black person that knocks over a liquor store or deals drugs and says "See? Black people aren't civilized!"

BOTH sides of EVERY issue have their share of idiots and radicals. Focus on them if you want. I'm more interested in having discourse with intelligent, thoughtful people. Let the idiots rant and ignore them. They'll always be there. Who is more foolish, the fool or the person that is influenced (one way or the other) by the fool?

I disown the idiots on my side of any issue, just as I hope you disown any black person that derides non-heteros or engages in gay bashing.

[_Joe_]

If same sex people wants to marry, why not just move to MA, where it's legal.
Seems simple.:grouphug:

Because its the United States of America, not the segregated.

[boca.openminded]

You don't know what the churches have to do with this , but you are ready to condemn them. How is that any different to what they do to us?

*Taylor*

yes, I am ready to condemn them because what they are doing is wrong. Why should they get involved with things that have nothing to do with them? Its there way of trying to control the country and make everyone a Christian.

Aren't you a little upset (especially being from Florida) at them for taking away what used to bring in a large amount of money for the state of Florida?

What they did with Fort Lauderdale they are doing with Prop 8. It is none of their business... Like I said before why aren't other organizations getting involved? Answer: because it has nothing to do with them...

The churches are wrong and if you can't see that then you are blind

[darkeyes]

Because its the United States of America, not the segregated.
soz Joe..not quite true...yas 51 states each wiv own laws an legislature an constitution.. that wetha ya like it or not is a kinda segregation...;)

[gurlydon]

I am astounded too frequently at how politically ignorant my homo- and bi-sexual brothers and sisters are, particularly when it comes to religious and civil practices. So-called Public Education probably is to blame. Marriage is not a "right" but a convention adopted by both religious and civil authorities of different cultures. It's purpose is to encourage childbirth, growth of the cultural community, and adherence to local custom. The political party that appeals to us now because of our sexual choice will be the first to punish or even exterminate us later on when we no longer serve the purposes of the party. Check history, especially the history of International Socialists (aka Communists) and National Socialists (aka Fascists or Nazis). Better it is for all of us to support political parties that will preserve and protect the U. S. Constitution and its original first ten amendments. That way we'll remain protected as persons, not protected temporarily or persecuted eventually as a political class.

[allbimyself]

gurlydon, be careful who you accept kool-aid from.

Marriage conveys onto those that enter into it many benefits. Either remove the political, economic and societal benefits, or grant them to all. End of story. THAT is the Constitution.

[proseros]

I know I'm going to get my ass kicked for this but I'm going to say it anyway.

I don't give a shit about Proposition 8, OR same-sex marriage, OR the church- any church. I say NO and F*** ALL OF THEM!

Now-Let me qualify exactly why I feel this way, and while I'm doing it I'll take the time to shamelessly plug my own threads namely the most recent "bisexual ethics" in which is made clear that any sort of thinking or behavioral convention that is homogeneous is "impossible and perverse".

The very "agenda" of "marriage" is a polar, homogenous perversion of actual human communion between men and women. It is the language of ethics we all have been taught and have entrained ourselves to adapt to by habit-and therefore by proxy, and which is therefore completely impossible and perverse because it does not include heterogenous thinking or acting.

We base our entire human evolution, development, thinking and behavior on polar homogeny. We adapt within its impossible and perverse moors if for no other reason,than to include and define ourselves in its context hoping to find a niche we can survive in knowing already that we are living impossibly and perversely, restrained by impossible and perverse ethics explained by polarized language.

As a result our entire world collapses into an adaptation of "secular diversities" which have NO parameters, NO language, and NO ETHICS. We become further divided, misguided, mis-educated and morbidly imbalanced against whatever sort of homogenies we are polarized against.

And we are therefore polarized against ourselves.

When the F*** did overturning a "marriage" affect anything about love, or family, or community, or culture? The Church, the Mormons, the Non-Profit Orgs- has raped our children, murdered in the name of God, has stolen more material and spiritual wealth from humanity and has told more lies than devil himself (They may have even written most of the material for Satan's act).

And YOU want THEM to WRITE THE LANGUAGE OF HETEROGENY TO YOUR BENEFIT? WHAT BENEFIT?

There are more than 40,000,000 people on this planet infected with HIV and those are numbers we can count! Ask your CHURCH what they think about that and do you know what they will tell you?

It is a punishment from GOD; That it is because of SEXUAL IMMORALITY AND A PERVERSION OF THE ETHICS ORDAINED BY GOD AND SANCTIONED BY THE CHURCH. And you want to be able to go to a Church, and get married. And you know what? I hate to say this but-

They're absolutely right. It is a punishment. It is a punishment because IT IS NOT THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE CHURCH TO EXPLAIN ANYTHING ABOUT ANYONE IN ANY OTHER LANGUAGE BUT ITS OWN PERVERSE AND IMPOSSIBLE ETHICS, WHICH WE BUY INTO, AND HAVE ALWAYS BOUGHT INTO TO OUR OWN DISCOMFORT, DISCONTENT AND WORLDLY DETRIMENT. We have accepted the benefit-of "marriage"-as something necessary and right for our survival and surrendered the responsibility of explaining ourselves in a language that makes sense, that is possible and ethical, lets everyone experience real happiness, real love, real having and holding til death do us part.

There is no language for that anywhere! There is nothing in the right of marriage that has integral benefit other than recognition by a church or by a court. There is nothing in the right of marriage that accommodates or consummates anything up to and including explanation of itself.

Marriage itself-is bullshit. Who cares how it is defined?
You don't need the church.
You don't need the Mormons.
You don't need Non profits.

Just walk away from them. That's the first thing. Stop grovelling at their doorstep for scraps of definition. Don't ask them for anything-and don't accept anything they have to offer. Your motto from now on is-

"NO THANK YOU."

Develop your own language of ethics. Explain your world in REAL heterogenous terms and with REAL heterogenous ethics and re-write the terms of "marriage" and "matrimony" and "family" and "community" and "love" so that it actually means something and is substantiated by evidence [YOU].

I personally am glad that proposition 8 exists because the last thing I would want to see is the government and church define the terms of same-sex "marriage" with THEIR LANGUAGE. They've already got "heterosexuals" hemmed up in their matrix of bullshit. That scares me far more than their deciding not to acknowledge same-sex unions, because they are effectively relinquishing any real say-so in the matter. Marriage is bullshit, "gay marriage" is trying to fit in with the bullshit marriage is, and ALL forms of "marriage" [according to government and church] as long as not heterogenous, should be abolished (now watch this)...

:eek:

Exactly. You can't even THINK of a world without "marriage",can you?
How could you? You didn't invent it!
And that is the tragedy behind how entrained and inured and dependant we are on church, and government to explain us to ourselves, what we are and how we are expected to adapt to the language of their impossible and perversely polar secular bullshit. So along with the "benefit" of "marriage" we have

infidelity;divorce;divorce court;custody battles;single parents,visitation rights;prenuptials;domestic violence;deviation;molestation; rape, beating,cheating, lying;Down Low;Oprah;Maury;Springer;dead beat dads; abuse; abortion; incest; ACS;CPS;COP;ADD;HIV; and the list goes on and on and on and at the end of the day who profits? THEY DO. Who pays? YOU DO because you allow someone or something else TO DO YOU FOR YOU. I SAY-

"NO THANK YOU."

I am now going to pull my pants down and bend over.
I will either get my ass kicked, or kissed, or licked, or fucked. Have fun.
Peace.

[goldenfinger]

Because we shouldn't have to leave our homes to have a family!
Totally agree, but if the only way at the moment, wouldn't it be better.

[darkeyes]

I know I'm going to get my ass kicked for this but I'm going to say it anyway.

I don't give a shit about Proposition 8, OR same-sex marriage, OR the church- any church. I say NO and F*** ALL OF THEM!

Now-Let me qualify exactly why I feel this way, and while I'm doing it I'll take the time to shamelessly plug my own threads namely the most recent "bisexual ethics" in which is made clear that any sort of thinking or behavioral convention that is homogeneous is "impossible and perverse".

The very "agenda" of "marriage" is a polar, homogenous perversion of actual human communion between men and women. It is the language of ethics we all have been taught and have entrained ourselves to adapt to by habit-and therefore by proxy, and which is therefore completely impossible and perverse because it does not include heterogenous thinking or acting.

We base our entire human evolution, development, thinking and behavior on polar homogeny. We adapt within its impossible and perverse moors if for no other reason,than to include and define ourselves in its context hoping to find a niche we can survive in knowing already that we are living impossibly and perversely, restrained by impossible and perverse ethics explained by polarized language.

As a result our entire world collapses into an adaptation of "secular diversities" which have NO parameters, NO language, and NO ETHICS. We become further divided, misguided, mis-educated and morbidly imbalanced against whatever sort of homogenies we are polarized against.

And we are therefore polarized against ourselves.

When the F*** did overturning a "marriage" affect anything about love, or family, or community, or culture? The Church, the Mormons, the Non-Profit Orgs- has raped our children, murdered in the name of God, has stolen more material and spiritual wealth from humanity and has told more lies than devil himself (They may have even written most of the material for Satan's act).

And YOU want THEM to WRITE THE LANGUAGE OF HETEROGENY TO YOUR BENEFIT? WHAT BENEFIT?

There are more than 40,000,000 people on this planet infected with HIV and those are numbers we can count! Ask your CHURCH what they think about that and do you know what they will tell you?

It is a punishment from GOD; That it is because of SEXUAL IMMORALITY AND A PERVERSION OF THE ETHICS ORDAINED BY GOD AND SANCTIONED BY THE CHURCH. And you want to be able to go to a Church, and get married. And you know what? I hate to say this but-

They're absolutely right. It is a punishment. It is a punishment because IT IS NOT THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE CHURCH TO EXPLAIN ANYTHING ABOUT ANYONE IN ANY OTHER LANGUAGE BUT ITS OWN PERVERSE AND IMPOSSIBLE ETHICS, WHICH WE BUY INTO, AND HAVE ALWAYS BOUGHT INTO TO OUR OWN DISCOMFORT, DISCONTENT AND WORLDLY DETRIMENT. We have accepted the benefit-of "marriage"-as something necessary and right for our survival and surrendered the responsibility of explaining ourselves in a language that makes sense, that is possible and ethical, lets everyone experience real happiness, real love, real having and holding til death do us part.

There is no language for that anywhere! There is nothing in the right of marriage that has integral benefit other than recognition by a church or by a court. There is nothing in the right of marriage that accommodates or consummates anything up to and including explanation of itself.

Marriage itself-is bullshit. Who cares how it is defined?
You don't need the church.
You don't need the Mormons.
You don't need Non profits.

Just walk away from them. That's the first thing. Stop grovelling at their doorstep for scraps of definition. Don't ask them for anything-and don't accept anything they have to offer. Your motto from now on is-

"NO THANK YOU."

Develop your own language of ethics. Explain your world in REAL heterogenous terms and with REAL heterogenous ethics and re-write the terms of "marriage" and "matrimony" and "family" and "community" and "love" so that it actually means something and is substantiated by evidence [YOU].

I personally am glad that proposition 8 exists because the last thing I would want to see is the government and church define the terms of same-sex "marriage" with THEIR LANGUAGE. They've already got "heterosexuals" hemmed up in their matrix of bullshit. That scares me far more than their deciding not to acknowledge same-sex unions, because they are effectively relinquishing any real say-so in the matter. Marriage is bullshit, "gay marriage" is trying to fit in with the bullshit marriage is, and ALL forms of "marriage" [according to government and church] as long as not heterogenous, should be abolished (now watch this)...

:eek:

Exactly. You can't even THINK of a world without "marriage",can you?
How could you? You didn't invent it!
And that is the tragedy behind how entrained and inured and dependant we are on church, and government to explain us to ourselves, what we are and how we are expected to adapt to the language of their impossible and perversely polar secular bullshit. So along with the "benefit" of "marriage" we have

infidelity;divorce;divorce court;custody battles;single parents,visitation rights;prenuptials;domestic violence;deviation;molestation; rape, beating,cheating, lying;Down Low;Oprah;Maury;Springer;dead beat dads; abuse; abortion; incest; ACS;CPS;COP;ADD;HIV; and the list goes on and on and on and at the end of the day who profits? THEY DO. Who pays? YOU DO because you allow someone or something else TO DO YOU FOR YOU. I SAY-

"NO THANK YOU."

I am now going to pull my pants down and bend over.
I will either get my ass kicked, or kissed, or licked, or fucked. Have fun.
Peace.

Wudn dream a smackin ya poor lil bottie.. an fukkin ya is rite out.. :tong:

..bit of a rant Pros hun..but agree wiv lots of it.. lots is rite loada bollox tho.. don worry an don fret.. peeps reckon the same thing a me..;)

[Toad82]

Totally agree, but if the only way at the moment, wouldn't it be better.

I suppose that would be decided by your outlook on life. I prefer never to settle and never to give up. I find it funny that these same people flicking us crap now are the same ones that keep saying we need to be more like them. Now that we are trying they are say except in this.


RJ:lokai:

[DiamondDog]

I know I'm going to get my ass kicked for this but I'm going to say it anyway.

I don't give a shit about Proposition 8, OR same-sex marriage, OR the church- any church. I say NO and F*** ALL OF THEM!

People of the same gender should be allowed to get married and have all the legal benefits of a marriage that two people of the opposite gender can, frequently do, and the right to divorce should be granted to us too.

For myself I'd actually be OK with a civil union to another guy and calling him my husband and having a non religious/spiritual ceremony and all that. I'd also want this to be lawfully valid in all 50 states and whatever countries we visit, and I'd want all the benefits that two people of the opposite gender get when they are legally married together.

I agree with you that marriage itself is a social construct but in this case it's more about wanting and getting equal rights, and not about finally getting them, then having them taken away, getting them again, and then having them taken away yet again. :2cents:

[proseros]

People of the same gender should be allowed to get married and have all the legal benefits of a marriage that two people of the opposite gender can, frequently do, and the right to divorce should be granted to us too.

For myself I'd actually be OK with a civil union to another guy and calling him my husband and having a non religious/spiritual ceremony and all that. I'd also want this to be lawfully valid in all 50 states and whatever countries we visit, and I'd want all the benefits that two people of the opposite gender get when they are legally married together.

I agree with you that marriage itself is a social construct but in this case it's more about wanting and getting equal rights, and not about finally getting them, then having them taken away, getting them again, and then having them taken away yet again. :2cents:

And that's exactly the problem because what we are defining as "rights" are NOT rights at all. They are BENEFITS accepted in return for conforming to the social construct prescribed for you anyone who buys into it. Marriage itself has nothing to do with acquiring or being eligible for any "rights". It is the spiritual and physical union between two-or more-loving persons. That's it. The idea of "legality" of marriage is an imposed usurpation of that [otherwise natural] bond that evolved out of adaptation and conformity to standards attached to "marriage" by entities who would not otherwise give a damned about you if you hadn't conformed. Every social industry profits from and exploits "marriage" to define who and what people are in society. If you are "married" you are mentally, financally and emotionally stable, able to commit to "something" and responsible; if you choose not to then you cannot possibly be worth anything in society. Everything we are is based on our conforming to homogenous rules that do not mean anything except to those who invented them.

NO THANK YOU. I do not think "gay marriage" should be legalized simply because that puts control of how marriage is to be defined in the hands of those who have legalized it, and gives those entites power to determine what "rights" such couples should or should not have-when in fact those "rights" existed from the very beginning. The whole idea of "equal" rights is an oxymoron since it can only be defined against an "unequal" right, leaving open the question of who should have it and who should not.

I've had this same argument about the right to vote, which convicted felons do not have. Being a felon does not remove the ability to have a position on who should run the country, and as long as anyone has a position they should be allowed to vote as long as they are a citizen capable of doing so.

But the right to vote clearly is NOT a RIGHT. It is a BENEFIT given to those who are deemed fit to have it. The same applies to marriage. Whatever benefits apply to married hetero couples should apply to EVERYONE regardless, and as long as you depend on some other entity for those benefits you are surrendering your autonomy and allow them to define what those benefits should be-or not.

We've got to open up our eyes and realize that it is a handful of mongrels who are doing inventing the rules and calling them "rights" and distributing them as "eligible benfits" to those who conform to accept them.

Here's a plate of shit-I'll give a million dollars if you eat it.
So you can go on the internet and watch "2girls 1cup"-for free.

Do the math-first.
And then go figure.

[darkeyes]

We've got to open up our eyes and realize that it is a handful of mongrels who are doing inventing the rules and calling them "rights" and distributing them as "eligible benfits" to those who conform to accept them.



Pros hun.. 1ce gain wotya sez has sum sense but in the end yas playin wiv words a lil.. "benefits" "rights" it don matta wotya call em.. so Human Rights aint rites at all but benefits?? It don matta. Course in ne society ther will b those who hav had ther summa rights suspended from 'em.. sum who hav not yet qualified for 'em.. its the principle that all in the end r equal unda the law.. well long as yas not a babba an unda the age a majority.. or broken societies rules... we kno its bollox of course.. cos we r not treated equally unda the law... not even if we r adult, law abidin, str8, married wiv the perfect nuclear family, in a job an support avidly the establishment... the law dus not treat us equally... "mongrels" as u call 'em pull the strings.. hav the power wicheva political organisation rules the country.. an the thing is..we let 'em...

Do actually agree wivya ya bout prisoners an votin.. its a pretty contentious issue, but sum European countries hav it an it works pretty well. Me thinks the fact that yas bein incarcerated an hav lost ya liberty shud b enuff punishment..

.. aaaah rich an powerful men..dontcha jus luff 'em...

[Sabby]

ok all, I have one thing to say to all faiths !!

IF MARRAIGE IS SO DAMN SACRED....... BAN DIVORCE !!!!!!!

NOTHING ELSE NEEDS TO BE SAID !!!!!!!

[darkeyes]

ok all, I have one thing to say to all faiths !!

IF MARRAIGE IS SO DAMN SACRED....... BAN DIVORCE !!!!!!!

NOTHING ELSE NEEDS TO BE SAID !!!!!!!Ther not enuff misery in the world then Sabby? U wanna heap on it in spades???

Not up 2 the churches 2 ban it ne way..the RC lot don recognise divorce an even in Italy ya can get divorced...

So if its the civil authorities that make the laws on marriage..wtf it got 2 do wiv the churches???

[shagamatic]

I can't help but think that the main opposition to same-sex marriage, by christians, is in calling the union marriage. Most christians view marriage as a sacred bond sanctioned by God. I am not a religious person myself; but I was raised in a southern baptist household and was thoroughly indoctrinated into their way of thinking.
I support same sex marriage; and I feel very strongly that there should be
complete seperation between church and state! However, since that is not a reality at the present time, perhaps it would be best to settle with civil union rights until public opinion changes.
I do sometimes get the impression that christians have become more involved in politics because they feel that their beliefs are under attack: prayer in schools, commandments on buildings, etc.. It seems that both sides are becoming more ardent in their agendas.
It seems to me that much of the world is becoming more tolerant of different customs and lifestyles - even if painfully slow at times. I wonder, if the progressives were to go a bit slower and not push so hard, would the rest of society come around in time? I think they would.:

[Toad82]

I can't help but think that the main opposition to same-sex marriage, by christians, is in calling the union marriage. Most christians view marriage as a sacred bond sanctioned by God. I am not a religious person myself; but I was raised in a southern baptist household and was thoroughly indoctrinated into their way of thinking.
I support same sex marriage; and I feel very strongly that there should be
complete seperation between church and state! However, since that is not a reality at the present time, perhaps it would be best to settle with civil union rights until public opinion changes.
I do sometimes get the impression that christians have become more involved in politics because they feel that their beliefs are under attack: prayer in schools, commandments on buildings, etc.. It seems that both sides are becoming more ardent in their agendas.
It seems to me that much of the world is becoming more tolerant of different customs and lifestyles - even if painfully slow at times. I wonder, if the progressives were to go a bit slower and not push so hard, would the rest of society come around in time? I think they would.:

Sometimes society needs the push.

[Falke]

Sometimes society needs the push.

Further, Christianity does not have sole ownership of marriage.

[Toad82]

Further, Christianity does not have sole ownership of marriage.

I really think between our two sentences we said it all.

[shagamatic]

Quote: Sometimes society needs a push.
True, but if you try to change "tradition" too fast people will resist. I am not saying that it is right, it is just reality.

[FalconAngel]

I can't help but think that the main opposition to same-sex marriage, by christians, is in calling the union marriage. Most christians view marriage as a sacred bond sanctioned by God.


And that is another reason that the laws created through their efforts is in violation of the Constitution.

To them marriage is sanctioned by their God. It, in Christian eyes, would technically invalidate everyone who is not married under their God's eyes. Folks like my wife and I, who were married in a traditional Pagan handfasting, under the eyes of our Gods and Goddesses, as well as every one who is married in something that is not of Christian faith.

The Christians responsible for these amoral and unconstitutional laws do not care one lick for anyone who does not toe the line that they establish for everyone (which particularly includes those NOT of Christian faith).

Here's something else that many do not know;
In order to be legal, any law that passes in a state must be in compliance with the civil liberties as established by the US Constitution. Any law that passes in a state, that is not in compliance with the US Constitution, is not lawfully enforceable.

Our biggest problem, in this country, is that too many of us do not know the history of our world. If more of us did, then we would see these things happening before they came to pass and could do more to prevent it.

The Christians don't care about history because it does not serve the power-mad leaders, just like in the dark ages and through the end of the Renaissance.

This is why our founding fathers place the clause in the Constitution that we call "separation of church and state". It is to prevent the church, or any one religion, from taking over the government.

Here is what we lose under church rule;

1. Freedom of speech. The church will decide what is acceptable and what they can jail you for under the latest "heresy" laws.

2. Scientific advancement. Evolution, Earth sciences, history and other sciences are no longer taught, but Creationism is. To contradict the church on this will constitute heresy, just like in the middle ages.

3. Technological edge over the enemies of America. See #1 and 2 for the reasons why.

4. Freedom of the Press. The church leadership will decide what the public will be allowed to know about.

5. Freedom of religion. The church will mandate a national religion and anyone not of that religion, or caught practicing an "unapproved" religion or anyone who violates the laws, as established by the church, will be jailed (or worse) for the crime of heresy, just as it happened in the Middle Ages.

It is our Constitution that makes us the last bastion of freedom in this world.

If the Religious nuts are allowed to take over, then that will be gone.....perhaps forever.

[shagamatic]

To Falcon Angels' post above: All true - most religions are tyrannical.

[Toad82]

Quote: Sometimes society needs a push.
True, but if you try to change "tradition" too fast people will resist. I am not saying that it is right, it is just reality.

There will always be those who resist. There will always be those who see change from “the traditional” as nothing more than an act against them. There will always be people that want everyone else to live their lives just as they do, that too is a reality. So why not push? Why not stand up for what “we” believe in? Nothing in the world would have ever changed without those who made the stand and showed others there are other ways.


RJ:lokai:

[darkeyes]

It is our Constitution that makes us the last bastion of freedom in this world.


Ya wer doin fine tillya sed that bit Falcon babes.. jus a tad arrogant, an jus a helluva lot untrue...

[FalconAngel]

Ya wer doin fine tillya sed that bit Falcon babes.. jus a tad arrogant, an jus a helluva lot untrue...

Why is that, Darkeyes? It's true.
Have you sat down and read the US Constitution? I have and, as a soldier, I swore an oath to defend it.
Note how I said that; the soldier's oath demands protection of the Constitution of the United States, not the nation, but one of it's core documents.
http://train.missouri.org/~emgeer/oathservice.html

It is our founding principles that the oath binds us to protect; not the land; not the leaders; and not even the flag.
Our Constitution is what has created the opportunities that made this country into what people wanted to come to. What people wanted to be a part of. It is why people will cross the ocean in a raft, risking their own lives, to escape tyrants.

Our Constitution and it's amendments is what has established freedom of religion, freedom of the press, freedom of speech and all of the liberties that have allowed the expansion of science and the human condition for this nation. Something that the right wing religious nuts are trying to dismantle. It is why we are what we are and why so many of us will fight and die in it's defense.
http://www.house.gov/paul/constitutiontext.htm

[darkeyes]

It is our Constitution that makes us the last bastion of freedom in this world.

Am not arguin wivya reasonin AM takin issue wiv that jus that statement an all that it implies.. it is an immensely arrogan statement 2 maket..an shows not a lil contempt for the peeps round the world an otha nations wich hav fought for an still do ther bit 2 attain an retain ther liberty an freedom.. ya MAY b the mos powerful proponent of a western idea a wot freedom an liberty mean..but ya r neitha the only..an certainly not the last..mayb in time that will prove 2 b the case..but don get ahead of yasel hun, an don attribute 2 ya country summat that is patently not so...

Ther r otha ideas a wot liberty an freedom mean wich r not of the western an certainly not of the 'merican model.. we may dislike them..an oppose them an try an persuade peeps 2 our way.. do NOT like much bout the western model a freedom an liberty.. cos jus don believe thats wot it means in effect.. wotyas sayin hun is ultimately ignorin every otha people's, an every otha nation's idea a liberty an freedom an imposin that a the US.. an THAT is substantially wy so many peeps r suspicious a the United States in the 1st place..thats wy so many peeps keep jumpin outa the bushes an takin yas on..

U may believe it Falcon hun.. but its a blatant nonsense.

As me dear ole pop is eva so fonda sayin.. 1 man's freedom is his neighbour's jail...

[wikskul]

i find it sad that every time we seem to get closer to equal rights .. something pushes us back.. due to ignorance and fear.... yet not all are like this.... not everyone in the church.. believe we are bad... but so many do.. and for a place that ptalks about forgivness... love .... acceptance... it seems to fall short in many of these areas.. yes i am a christian by faith.. but no i dont go to church due to who i am. but fighting for what i believe in like equal rights... is something worth fighting for... peacefully hopefully. things sometimes get out of hand when tempers flair.. and that is what they want... for all of us as a comunity to do bad things... and prove to the world that we are evil.. mean, nasty, pervs, who want nothing more then to cause problems... the attack on the LDS churches.. yes part of me is like " yes " but the other part is going.. this is what they wanted.. so the only way to actually help and do what we all are wanting is pretty much be peaceful and not give them the amo to show the world how BAD we are and EVIL. and fighting with eachother will only cause more strife with our group... and with strife comes disorder... and with out order.. we are sure to loose anything we want...
i would have loved to marry my "wife" before she died.. but i couldnt... it wasnt legal at the time. so yes i do feel the pain of peoples beliefes being pushed down my throat and all i can say to them is " Shame on you" but it also strengthens my resolve more and makes me want to try harder to fight what i am intitled too.. and help others who need it..

[FalconAngel]

Am not arguin wivya reasonin AM takin issue wiv that jus that statement an all that it implies.. it is an immensely arrogan statement 2 maket..an shows not a lil contempt for the peeps round the world an otha nations wich hav fought for an still do ther bit 2 attain an retain ther liberty an freedom.. ya MAY b the mos powerful proponent of a western idea a wot freedom an liberty mean..but ya r neitha the only..an certainly not the last..mayb in time that will prove 2 b the case..but don get ahead of yasel hun, an don attribute 2 ya country summat that is patently not so...

Ther r otha ideas a wot liberty an freedom mean wich r not of the western an certainly not of the 'merican model.. we may dislike them..an oppose them an try an persuade peeps 2 our way.. do NOT like much bout the western model a freedom an liberty.. cos jus don believe thats wot it means in effect.. wotyas sayin hun is ultimately ignorin every otha people's, an every otha nation's idea a liberty an freedom an imposin that a the US.. an THAT is substantially wy so many peeps r suspicious a the United States in the 1st place..thats wy so many peeps keep jumpin outa the bushes an takin yas on..

U may believe it Falcon hun.. but its a blatant nonsense.

As me dear ole pop is eva so fonda sayin.. 1 man's freedom is his neighbour's jail...


Fair enough, then.