Poly gets a VERY bad rap!

[proseros]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080409/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat

Besides that, I always KNEW these folks were just up to no damned good somehow, somewhere. I am disgusted to no end with this kind of fundamentalist-or whatever kind of psycho shit-nonsense!

[Long Duck Dong]

if you were to remove the * forced /arranged * marriage and the illegal activities.......then I have no issues with what was happening

by illegal issues, I am refering to non consenting sexual actitivies with people including minors and abuse

the reason I say that.... is the moment you remove the marriage and illegal stuff.....you are left with a polygamous based lifestyle

IF they were not religious, doing illegal things and using arranged/ forced marriage.... a lot of people would cry discrimination

multi person relationships are something that we often see talked about in bisexual.com....but we also refer to personal freedom and choice......

when I apply the same guidelines to the people in that place.....I see that its a indoctrined way of life.... they are encouraged to live and exist in a way that we find to be unnatural, but while I disagree with the way they live...I bear in mind that a lot more people disagree with my celibate lifestyle, which is not indoctrinated but personal choice

we see that there is no freedom to choose a partner.... but that may not always be the case..... some may have chosen their partners and it is mutual and by choice........however it makes for a better story if we are led to believe that every lady is * pushed * to marry their husband and that they have no free will at all......

the religious aspect of the case, is a non point.... belief in god is not the issue.....the way the religion has been changed to encompass the lifestyle and give it creditability, is the issue for a lot of people........but again...its personal choice.....there are people that have walked away from that lifestyle and that place....I watch a couple of them on the news the other night

the illegal activities ??? they happen thru out the world.....but not on a scale that is being shown in this own area.......and considering the large number of people.....the cases so far, are minimal but that may change as the case progresses

so I really ask the question..... what is actually the issue in this case

is it the fact that they are a religious group that lives a lifestyle that many do not believe and that the law has been broken, with illegal sexual connection with minors, multiple marriages, abuse.....and that people want to make a example of a religious group.....

or the fact that a group have broken the law and the law enforcers have moved to protect the innocent, punish the guilty as is their role in the justice system

[gfofbiguy]

if you were to remove the * forced /arranged * marriage and the illegal activities.......then I have no issues with what was happening

by illegal issues, I am refering to non consenting sexual actitivies with people including minors and abuse

the reason I say that.... is the moment you remove the marriage and illegal stuff.....you are left with a polygamous based lifestyle

IF they were not religious, doing illegal things and using arranged/ forced marriage.... a lot of people would cry discrimination

multi person relationships are something that we often see talked about in bisexual.com....but we also refer to personal freedom and choice......

when I apply the same guidelines to the people in that place.....I see that its a indoctrined way of life.... they are encouraged to live and exist in a way that we find to be unnatural, but while I disagree with the way they live...I bear in mind that a lot more people disagree with my celibate lifestyle, which is not indoctrinated but personal choice

we see that there is no freedom to choose a partner.... but that may not always be the case..... some may have chosen their partners and it is mutual and by choice........however it makes for a better story if we are led to believe that every lady is * pushed * to marry their husband and that they have no free will at all......

the religious aspect of the case, is a non point.... belief in god is not the issue.....the way the religion has been changed to encompass the lifestyle and give it creditability, is the issue for a lot of people........but again...its personal choice.....there are people that have walked away from that lifestyle and that place....I watch a couple of them on the news the other night

the illegal activities ??? they happen thru out the world.....but not on a scale that is being shown in this own area.......and considering the large number of people.....the cases so far, are minimal but that may change as the case progresses

so I really ask the question..... what is actually the issue in this case

is it the fact that they are a religious group that lives a lifestyle that many do not believe and that the law has been broken, with illegal sexual connection with minors, multiple marriages, abuse.....and that people want to make a example of a religious group.....

or the fact that a group have broken the law and the law enforcers have moved to protect the innocent, punish the guilty as is their role in the justice system

I found this website very enlightening about the FLDS: http://www.childbrides.org/carolyn.html which has excerpts of interviews with Carolyn Jessop or parts from Carolyn Jessop's book (who was married to Merril Jessop who was "in charge" of the Texas compound).

With the FLDS, women are not even considered as "second class" citizens...they are baby factories. And the boys are bred and raised to procreate.

"Many FLDS members were apparently born into the society and have no concept of mainstream beliefs.'These people grew up in this world. They don't have a clue what regular society is about,' said Lalich, who has written several books on cults. 'They come to believe this kind of behavior is normal even though clearly people leave because they realize this isn't healthy. You don't give up girls at age 14 to marry some 50-year-old relative in many cases. The women have absolutely no choice. They have absolutely no power in that group.'" (http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/texassectearnscultstatus)

[12voltman59]

This sect has nothing to do with real, legitimate polyamourous type of lifestyle---it has to do with slavery, sexual and physical abuse and things of this nature---I sure as hell hope that the lawyers arguing that these people have a right to act as they do and that the state cannot step in to stop the activites of those in charge here---if the courts were to sanction this--then under the banner of "religious faith"---nothing would be out of bounds---

I hope that indictments are coming down soon and that some people start spending time in lockup----while they wait for trial---then get convicted---and that they level the buildings on that compound to the ground---leave no trace of the evil place.

[sdnaustin]

I agree with the attitude that this isn't anywhere near related to polyamory. This is nothing but a bunch of elderly male child-molestors looking for a way to get away with it. It is not about love, they view women and children as objects. It's not the Oneida Colony, it is a bunch of religious nuts trying to find a way to get off.

[Long Duck Dong]

12voltman I semi agree with you and sdnaustin.... you are simply hilarious

Polyamory (from Greek πολυ [poly, meaning many or several] and Latin amor [literally “love”]) is the desire, practice, or acceptance of having more than one loving, intimate relationship at a time with the full knowledge and consent of everyone involved. Polyamorous perspectives differ from monogamous perspectives, in that they reflect one or more partner's wish(es) to have further meaningful relationships and to accommodate these alongside their existing relationships.

strange.... the cult / sect / commune fit that description......

mmm dirty old men looking to get their rocks off ????????
so any older / mature male in bisexual.com that have sexual liaisons with a person young than them ( older then the age of consent ) is also a dirty old male

its not about love, its about getting ya rocks off ??????
does that mean that bisexuals are just about fucking people and not caring / developing a emotional attachment



right before anybody tells me to go fuck myself......stop and read back.....

I did not use the terms religious, illegal activities, enforced marriage etc......

now its interesting to notice how aspects of bisexual.com and the sect / cult / commune, share the same traits..... yet people are quick to say that there are no common traits between us... cos they are religious / commiting illegal acts etc etc etc

yet we feel its ok to commit adultery, infidelity, polyamory etc etc etc cos we see it as consentual....
now if any of the commune say that they entered into a marriage willingly and by choice... experts will say its conditioning and brainwashing

lets ignore the fact they have a working, functional community, one that is not mainstream with all its conflict, bitching, gossiping arguing, back stabbing, power plays, divorces, infidelity etc etc etc

lets judge them on their beliefs, their actions ( legal and illegal ) and they way of life....... and simply ignore the fact that in fact their lifestyle is indeed, by definition.... polyarmous

btw as I said before.... I do not condone the abuse of children in any form.......and i am repeating that before anybody decides to say that I support the communes actions with the children

[FalconAngel]

The fact that they were so secretive, going to the point of preventing anyone from communicating with the outside world or legal authorities, which means a lot. That is one of the behaviors of a cult.

That is one strong point against them. It is also covered under the law; it is against the law to restrain a person against their will through physical or coercive means to prevent them from seeking assistance from law enforcement or other legally authorized authorities.

It is highly unlikely that the vast majority of the women and young girls who married those men were of legal age when those marriages occured.

That is another point against them. And it is illegal. It is covered under 2 laws; statutory rape and coercion.

It wouldn't be a big deal either, if polygamy were legal in this country, but it is not.

As far as we are concerned, if people want to have consentual, polyamorous relationships between consenting adults, then more power to them.

We have a problem when people involve underage persons, who are involved either through indoctrination or other forms of coercion.

It is the coercion and the virtual hostage situation that these young women are forced into.

The whole problem is a lack of free will, for the women, and statutory rape of the ones who are under the age of majority; not the polygamy itself.

[Long Duck Dong]

I agree there falcon....... but I am refusing to label each and every person in that cult with the same brush....

its a bit like saying all bisexuals are sexually active with both sexes and the media has the habit of leaving out a lot in order to much the true story more sensational

part of the issue with that we are told about the young girls forced into the situation...... but a person with a background in counselling and therapy, would understand that its a lil hard to force / co erce / brainwash somebody into something that to them, is totally normal anyway


to us on the out side.... the life is foreign, strange, abnormal, unusual etc etc etc.... but to the people born into that situation... its the same thing..... we are the strange and abnormal ones

now they are gonna see us as trying to brainwash them into believing that their life is sick, twisted and abnormal.....but its the only life they know......

now if somebody took you out of your current lifestyle and started to tear your life apart and tell you that its all wrong... you would fight it....and accuse people of trying to brainwash you......


what I am trying to say... is taking the guilty aside.... you have the innocent....and now we are saying that its ok for us to push our views onto them and make them accept our views as right......but we are gonna refuse to allow others to tell us that our bisexual / gay lifestyle is wrong and sick and twisted and in the most cases in some states and countries..... its illegal

and again that is not applying to or directed at ANY aspect of the underage marriage / sexual connection aspect of this issue

[Bull4LTR]

It gives Poly a bad name, not fair to the reg. normal poly people out there

[Long Duck Dong]

Bull4LTR then by the same ruling, bisexuals that cheat on partners, have unprotected sex, manipulate their partners into threesomes / foursomes etc etc
get respectable, loving, caring bisexuals and bisexual partners in relations and marriage, a bad name and that is not fair

[Germanicus]

I will agree with LDD that sometimes this site is like a cult.

Perhaps the poly talked about in the news article is just the (il)logical conculsion of the poly talked about on this site ...

Its curious how the supporters of poly on this site rush to distance themselves from the other poly. "No, no, we're not like that".

[gfofbiguy]

Personally, I am not a "poly"-type person - I am pretty monogamous...but I don't have a problem with people who are poly/identify with poly. I do have a problem when a group doesn't give one a choice in the matter though, as in the FDLS, since women are less than second class citizens and have no choice in whom they marry or if that husband dies, whom they are given to as an extra wife. Poly-type relationships that allow both and/or all parties choose whom they are with is very different than a society that doesn't allow ALL PARTIES INVOLVED make choices regarding their OWN lives.

[Long Duck Dong]

gtfobiguy... thats where people are making the mistake

most of the younger people in that group / commune know no different....to them its life......they were born into that lifestyle

how can your rights be infringed upon, if you have never grown up with those rights in the first place.....

when you say that its unfair to them to be put in that situation.... thats implying that they have had a different life first

they are now being pulled out of that life style and brought into a strange new world for them
for a lot of them its gonna be like being taken from their home land and put in slavery..... not cos they lose rights..... but cause the rights they have known, are gone.....and suddenly they have to change their whole life around to adapt to a new life where their old rights are forbidden and gone, and their new rights give them freedom.....but to them, it would appear as a freedom that goes against everything they know.... and many of them may try to return to what they know and understand cos they can not handle the change.

mainstream society will pressure / force them to change, to fit in to a society where they currently do not fit in.....

and that is the basis of true slavery

[darkeyes]

gtfobiguy... thats where people are making the mistake

most of the younger people in that group / commune know no different....to them its life......they were born into that lifestyle

how can your rights be infringed upon, if you have never grown up with those rights in the first place.....

when you say that its unfair to them to be put in that situation.... thats implying that they have had a different life first

they are now being pulled out of that life style and brought into a strange new world for them
for a lot of them its gonna be like being taken from their home land and put in slavery..... not cos they lose rights..... but cause the rights they have known, are gone.....and suddenly they have to change their whole life around to adapt to a new life where their old rights are forbidden and gone, and their new rights give them freedom.....but to them, it would appear as a freedom that goes against everything they know.... and many of them may try to return to what they know and understand cos they can not handle the change.

mainstream society will pressure / force them to change, to fit in to a society where they currently do not fit in.....

and that is the basis of true slavery

Wiv this argument Duckie..slaves in the US wud still b slaves.. the rites of those neva who enjoyed ne wer still ther..that they wer prevented from bein able 2 excercise or b protected by them until now is the point. Nowt wud eva change..ya keep arguin do nowt...stop it an get real!!!

[diB4u]

I only skimmed read the aritcle, but it has nothing to do with poly way of life, more likely sick old men getting their rocks off by endicing, or seducing girls who were below the age of consent.

That has nothing to do with being in, or having, more than one relationship.

There is a reason why this act was made illegal to the LDS. The church passed an act, making it illegal years ago, and has since disowned the fundementallists movement.

However, if you ask anyone on the street, what a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints believe in, ( mormons), they will say - more than one wife.

The fundementalists have nothing to do with LDS....

Latter day saints are believers in the normal hetro one man one woman style life. They also are law abiding citizens-well most of them...

This story is really sad. So i went back and read it again...

Not only do Poly life styles get a bad rap, but also do Mormons as a rule.

Warren Jeffs. He is serving two consecutive sentences of five years to life for being an accomplice to the rape of a 14-year-old wed to her cousin in Utah.

This man, and his sect has nothing to do with being religous, nor living a proper life style. This man Warren Jeffs and the Barlow man are both individuals that the law needs to cage.

The abuse of women and children in this lifestyle must be put to a stop.

Although I'm a baptised Mormon I'm an oxymoron cause i believe in a Poly lifestyle as well...

:2cents:

[Long Duck Dong]

Wiv this argument Duckie..slaves in the US wud still b slaves.. the rites of those neva who enjoyed ne wer still ther..that they wer prevented from bein able 2 excercise or b protected by them until now is the point. Nowt wud eva change..ya keep arguin do nowt...stop it an get real!!!


thats where people are getting what I am saying, wrong........

currently the LGBT community do not have all the rights of the rest of the human race, in some countries.......our lifestyle is restricted simply cos we are who we are, yet the LGBT in the us live in a land of freedom and human rights

but just cos the fight for human rights is racing along......and hopefully one day they will get it......doesn't mean that all people will want it.......

some people are vocal and saying that the LGBT need to stand up and be out, proud and tell the world about it.....but not all LGBT feel that way or wanna be that way

its a bit like nz with the civil union bill.....so many fought for it... so few actually used it or want to use it......they are still slaves to their life and lifestyle, but only cos its what they know, want and are happy with....even with the choices they have

when I look at the commune, I see the same thing.....some of those people will know about the freedom, the rights and the changes they could have.....and some will choose NOT to have it......

they will choose the old lifestyle..... and they will not be allowed it.....and I am mainly referring to the females, not the males......
the rest for that is females are known for being able to adjust and settle better than the average male

now by forcing the people of the commune that do not wish to change, to adapt and accept the changes.....its a form of slavery.....legal slavery... we have removed their rights and replaced them with our rules and laws

in some states of the us, homosexual is still illegal......yet some LGBT people say its their right to be that way and ignore the law of the country.... but we say thats ok for their to commit a illegal act... but its not ok if people in a willingly and consentual poly marriage choose to remain that way

now I recall the polygamist ( can't recall his name ) that was arrested in the us.... for the same thing.. polygamist marriage....but the trouble was that he was not married legally to many wives.....in fact he would legally marry one, then divorce her to legally marry the next..........
the justice officials dug up a old law that had not been used for over 100 years.... to arrest him and sentence him to about 5 years in jail......cos it was the only way they could arrest him cos the way he was marrying and divorcing his wives, was legal

currently the justice officials are pissed off that they are not able to stop him living with his WIFE, and having the others living in the same place....and they are angry that they are powerless to stop the other EX wives living there by their own choice......

the justice officials are claiming that the wives are brainwashed..... but the wives have said that they have the freedom to leave..... but why leave???? and the law gives them that right

BTW... polygamy is a two way thing..... but the male is targeted for polygamy....not both the husband and wife.....ever noticed that......??????


now everybody is slamming the commune based on media reports, tv, radio etc etc etc....... but where is the actual people in the commune..... where is their opinion.... where is the details and news reports and interviews where they have had their say

oh wait..... there is none.......on the one sided sensationalised news reports

[gfofbiguy]

The majority of the women in the commune (not the young girls, but the adult women) were "chosen" by Warren Jeffs and Merril Jessop and taken from the communities of Hilldale, Utah and Colorado City, Arizona, because they were thought to have been the most obedient to the men and therefore, would be more "holy". They did not have a choice to be chosen to go...they were just told to go. Some were even taken from their husbands in those towns and "given" to another at the commune...with no say in the matter.

Yes, maybe they have been told they could leave at any time, but there were also FLDS "security" - both men and women - in those towns (Hilldale and Colorado City and most likely the commune as well) that watch and make sure one does not leave. How does that make one "free to leave at any time" should one want to?


BTW... polygamy is a two way thing..... but the male is targeted for polygamy....not both the husband and wife.....ever noticed that......??????

I have noticed that.

And I always also wondered, how come the men get to have plural wives, but the women are only allowed one husband? How come there are no women with plural husbands and the husbands only allowed one wife?:rolleyes: ;)

[Long Duck Dong]

The majority of the women in the commune (not the young girls, but the adult women) were "chosen" by Warren Jeffs and Merril Jessop and taken from the communities of Hilldale, Utah and Colorado City, Arizona, because they were thought to have been the most obedient to the men and therefore, would be more "holy". They did not have a choice to be chosen to go...they were just told to go. Some were even taken from their husbands in those towns and "given" to another at the commune...with no say in the matter.



exactly.... most of them were born into that lifestyle... they know no different

when we talk about their rights etc etc etc.... we talk as we percieve life....we see that we have rights and freedom....and they they do not.....

but as I said earlier.... slavery is the taking of a person from one way of life and placed in a totally alien way of life... and that the person have a understanding of the difference

when we refer to the lifestyle of the commune as slavery..... we are saying that they are held in a foreign lifestyle to the one they know..... but most of them were born into that lifestyle...... so how can it be foreign to them if they know no difference.....how can they be slaves to the one thing they know....?????

its a bit like saying that I am a slave to the bisexual way of life, when its the only life I know.....I don't know what its like to be a gay / les / trangender.....yet the gays / les are quick to tell me that I am actually a gay person....I just don't see it cos I let others dictate my life

I am not justifying what happened in the commune....but I am saying for the people that are offered a new life.... and turn it down, willingly and freely to return to the commune and that way of life..... then we need to allow them that right.... if it is not breaking any laws.......and we need to stop calling them slaves, brainwashed etc etc.....cos thats implying that they are not able to think for themselves and make a choice for themselves

in the same context as a bisexual trying the gay / les lifestyle..and returning to the bisexual lifestyle.... and being told that they were brainwashing / conditioned in to beleiving that they are bisexual so naturally they will return to the basis of conditioning..... and that is immediate saying that bisexuals are mindless robots that can't make a informed decision for themselves

[gfofbiguy]

exactly.... most of them were born into that lifestyle... they know no different

when we talk about their rights etc etc etc.... we talk as we percieve life....we see that we have rights and freedom....and they they do not.....

but as I said earlier.... slavery is the taking of a person from one way of life and placed in a totally alien way of life... and that the person have a understanding of the difference

when we refer to the lifestyle of the commune as slavery..... we are saying that they are held in a foreign lifestyle to the one they know..... but most of them were born into that lifestyle...... so how can it be foreign to them if they know no difference.....how can they be slaves to the one thing they know....?????

its a bit like saying that I am a slave to the bisexual way of life, when its the only life I know.....I don't know what its like to be a gay / les / trangender.....yet the gays / les are quick to tell me that I am actually a gay person....I just don't see it cos I let others dictate my life

I am not justifying what happened in the commune....but I am saying for the people that are offered a new life.... and turn it down, willingly and freely to return to the commune and that way of life..... then we need to allow them that right.... if it is not breaking any laws.......and we need to stop calling them slaves, brainwashed etc etc.....cos thats implying that they are not able to think for themselves and make a choice for themselves

in the same context as a bisexual trying the gay / les lifestyle..and returning to the bisexual lifestyle.... and being told that they were brainwashing / conditioned in to beleiving that they are bisexual so naturally they will return to the basis of conditioning..... and that is immediate saying that bisexuals are mindless robots that can't make a informed decision for themselves

They may know "no different", but they do know that they are being given to another man with no say in the matter, whether they like it or not and have no choice in that matter - even if they don't like it...they do know that they don't like it, but can't say anything. Why isn't that slavery then? Why isn't being taken away from Hildale, UT or Colorado City, AZ and shipped off to BFE, Texas with no say in the matter a form of slavery? As you said, "but as I said earlier.... slavery is the taking of a person from one way of life and placed in a totally alien way of life... and that the person have a understanding of the difference"...what a different life, away from your family, your friends, your LIFE, down to BFE, Texas, to be a baby machine - and a baby machine to a different man than who their {first} "given" husband was. Why isn't that slavery?

[FalconAngel]

in some states of the us, homosexual is still illegal......yet some LGBT people say its their right to be that way and ignore the law of the country.... but we say thats ok for their to commit a illegal act... but its not ok if people in a willingly and consentual poly marriage choose to remain that way


The mistake you make in that statement is 3-fold.

The first being that it is not illegal to be Gay in the US.

The second is that while many states bar, or do not recognize, same-sex marriages. They do not prohibit people from co-habitating. That's not the same as it being illegal to be Gay. And while a very small number of states still have anti-sodomy (anti-gay) laws on the books; in most cases they still have those laws because those laws are no longer enforced and are, subsequently overlooked by legislators who are busy making new laws. This also explains why we have so many redundant laws in this country.

The third is equating a person's sexuality, Which is rarely a "choice", with the clear cut choice of an adult choosing to live in a polygamous relationship.

[Long Duck Dong]

They may know "no different", but they do know that they are being given to another man with no say in the matter, whether they like it or not and have no choice in that matter - even if they don't like it...they do know that they don't like it, but can't say anything. Why isn't that slavery then? Why isn't being taken away from Hildale, UT or Colorado City, AZ and shipped off to BFE, Texas with no say in the matter a form of slavery? As you said, "but as I said earlier.... slavery is the taking of a person from one way of life and placed in a totally alien way of life... and that the person have a understanding of the difference"...what a different life, away from your family, your friends, your LIFE, down to BFE, Texas, to be a baby machine - and a baby machine to a different man than who their {first} "given" husband was. Why isn't that slavery?


thats the point I am making..... what about the ones that freely decide to do it.....and that willingly do it.......people are constantly focusing on the negative aspects of the issue..... and saying that its slavery....I am looking down the center line and saying for some it is / was.....and for some it isn't /wasn't and for some they are confused and are not sure what choice to make

now when a wife / husband marries and moved across country, leaving before friends, and family and loved ones....to settle down in a new place...and to reproduce.....we call that personal choice.....

when a person does it in a commune.... its automatically called slavery...... but what if the person agrees to the change..... when then we call it conditioning and brainwashing, and if they are fully understanding, willing and agreeable to the change.... we say that they are not aware they have rights......and we REFUSE to accept that maybe the person is capable of intelligent thinking and rationalization...... cos we wanna be right when we point the finger and lay the blame... therefore any hint that we may be wrong about some of the people, is not acceptable.....cos it lessens the impact of the * it is so wrong * opinion

[Long Duck Dong]

The mistake you make in that statement is 3-fold.

The first being that it is not illegal to be Gay in the US.

The second is that while many states bar, or do not recognize, same-sex marriages. They do not prohibit people from co-habitating. That's not the same as it being illegal to be Gay. And while a very small number of states still have anti-sodomy (anti-gay) laws on the books; in most cases they still have those laws because those laws are no longer enforced and are, subsequently overlooked by legislators who are busy making new laws. This also explains why we have so many redundant laws in this country.

The third is equating a person's sexuality, Which is rarely a "choice", with the clear cut choice of an adult choosing to live in a polygamous relationship.

yes I used the wrong words....

first it should have been in countries around the world

second.... you said it..... the law is over looked....depending on the case......

third...you got that one wrong......cos I wrote it wrong....
as you stated, the anti sodomy laws still exist....but its overlooked.....
my point is that a agreeable and willing poly marriage / relationship is not a crime if it falls inside the boundaries of the law........
but people are quick to jump on the communes conduct ( the LEGAL stuff ) while they may be committing a ILLEGAL act if their own homes and saying its ok

[FalconAngel]

yes I used the wrong words....

first it should have been in countries around the world

second.... you said it..... the law is over looked....depending on the case......

third...you got that one wrong......cos I wrote it wrong....
as you stated, the anti sodomy laws still exist....but its overlooked.....
my point is that a agreeable and willing poly marriage / relationship is not a crime if it falls inside the boundaries of the law........
but people are quick to jump on the communes conduct ( the LEGAL stuff ) while they may be committing a ILLEGAL act if their own homes and saying its ok

And that is the point.

It isn't the polygamy that most people really have a problem with, these days, but more likely it is the illegal, morally objectionable, and morally reprehensible things that this cult did.
Polygamy was just one factor of their actions, even though it was linked to the statutory rape charges, and that is what the media is jumping all over.

The media has, very briefly (then nothing more was said), made note of the fact that these men and women were members of a fundamentalist Christian polygamous cult.
In the reports that I have seen, they mentioned that they were Christian once, but only when the story first broke. Nothing more has been said about the actual religion being followed by these people since then.

If they had been ANY other religion, the media would be all over that fact like white on rice.

[diB4u]

And that is the point.

It isn't the polygamy that most people really have a problem with, these days, but more likely it is the illegal, morally objectionable, and morally reprehensible things that this cult did.
Polygamy was just one factor of their actions, even though it was linked to the statutory rape charges, and that is what the media is jumping all over.

The media has, very briefly (then nothing more was said), made note of the fact that these men and women were members of a fundamentalist Christian polygamous cult.
In the reports that I have seen, they mentioned that they were Christian once, but only when the story first broke. Nothing more has been said about the actual religion being followed by these people since then.

If they had been ANY other religion, the media would be all over that fact like white on rice.


True falcon, but also I know for a fact, that the LDS have probably got their lawers envolved etc, to distance themselves from the fundementalists. Probably the current leader has a heck of a lot of influence and money...

Aside from the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, other sects of Mormonism include the Apostolic United Brethren, the Kingston Family ("The Order," also known as the Kingston Clan), and the Centennial Park group..... I'm not really to sure which ones are which to be honest with you, but i've heard of the fundementalistis church before when I was trying to be a good mormon girl.


The fundementaliists have been practicing poly since the 1920's when it was outlawed from the main stream church.
The term "Mormon fundamentalist" appears to have been coined in the 1940s by LDS Church Apostle Mark E. Petersen. Today the LDS Church considers the word "Mormon" to apply only to its members, not to members of other sects of the Latter Day Saint movement.

The LDS Church therefore claims that there is no such thing as a "Mormon fundamentalist", nor that there are any "Mormon sects". The LDS Church suggests that the correct term to describe these splinter groups is "polygamist sects"



Anyways, the arrest has more to do with the fact that a 15 year old at time time was made to be married to a 49 year old. This has nothing to do with poly way of life, this is child abuse.

Sorry to mumble on.....

[shameless agitator]

The fact that they were so secretive, going to the point of preventing anyone from communicating with the outside world or legal authorities, which means a lot. That is one of the behaviors of a cult.

That is one strong point against them. It is also covered under the law; it is against the law to restrain a person against their will through physical or coercive means to prevent them from seeking assistance from law enforcement or other legally authorized authorities.

It is highly unlikely that the vast majority of the women and young girls who married those men were of legal age when those marriages occured.

That is another point against them. And it is illegal. It is covered under 2 laws; statutory rape and coercion.

It wouldn't be a big deal either, if polygamy were legal in this country, but it is not.

As far as we are concerned, if people want to have consentual, polyamorous relationships between consenting adults, then more power to them.

We have a problem when people involve underage persons, who are involved either through indoctrination or other forms of coercion.

It is the coercion and the virtual hostage situation that these young women are forced into.

The whole problem is a lack of free will, for the women, and statutory rape of the ones who are under the age of majority; not the polygamy itself.Agreed. I have no beef with polygamy. The problem here is pedophilia & rape. For an interesting insight into these fuckwits read "Under the Banner of Heaven" By John Krakauer (The same guy who wrote "Into Thin Air" about theEverest expedition)

[shameless agitator]

gtfobiguy... thats where people are making the mistake

most of the younger people in that group / commune know no different....to them its life......they were born into that lifestyle

how can your rights be infringed upon, if you have never grown up with those rights in the first place.....

when you say that its unfair to them to be put in that situation.... thats implying that they have had a different life first

they are now being pulled out of that life style and brought into a strange new world for them
for a lot of them its gonna be like being taken from their home land and put in slavery..... not cos they lose rights..... but cause the rights they have known, are gone.....and suddenly they have to change their whole life around to adapt to a new life where their old rights are forbidden and gone, and their new rights give them freedom.....but to them, it would appear as a freedom that goes against everything they know.... and many of them may try to return to what they know and understand cos they can not handle the change.

mainstream society will pressure / force them to change, to fit in to a society where they currently do not fit in.....

and that is the basis of true slavery
Based on this logic we should have never freed the slaves. Most of them had been born slaves to slave parents & had never known anything different. Freedom & responsibility for their own welfare must have been a very difficult transition for them. Where did we get off telling them that their previous liofestyle was wrong?

[FalconAngel]

Based on this logic we should have never freed the slaves. Most of them had been born slaves to slave parents & had never known anything different. Freedom & responsibility for their own welfare must have been a very difficult transition for them. Where did we get off telling them that their previous liofestyle was wrong?

Very true.
A slave is still held in a state of slavery whether or not they know that they are.

The true test of whether a person is in such a situation akin to slavery is whether or not they know that they have choices.

Without choices and the knowledge that they in fact have choices, they are not in any better position to choose than a slave.
In other words;
"......that all men (meaning humanity) are created equal; that they are endowed, by their creator, with certain inalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." --The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America

Without choices, those profound words mean nothing. How can one enjoy those liberties without choices?

[Long Duck Dong]

Based on this logic we should have never freed the slaves. Most of them had been born slaves to slave parents & had never known anything different. Freedom & responsibility for their own welfare must have been a very difficult transition for them. Where did we get off telling them that their previous liofestyle was wrong?


and who are we to decide that our way of life is the right one for the rest of the world....lol

seriously..... in simple terms we are all slaves..... its just who is our master, that changes......

I am a slave to the system......I am told by the slave master....that in order to be considered a good slave..I must have a job, own a home, have a car, take a partner, have kids........and my master is money.....and society

the people in the commune must take a partner....work...have kids....etc...and their master is religion and belief.......

but what if I do not wish to own my own home, what if I choose not to be tied down to a mortgage for 30 years, and I choose not to have a car cos near everything is within walking distant, and choose to remain single and not have kids........( which is what I am doing by personal choice )

I have the answer.....most banks will not give me credit cos I do not have a mortgage with them.......the main accepted photo id is a drivers licence, I am not eligible for the same benefits and tax cuts as a couple, and my income is not boosted cos I do not have kids
( the benefits and tax cuts and income boost would give me a income of $48,000 a year, as a single person I am on $39,000 a year, i am actually better off then a couple with kids )


we often talk in terms of * freeing the slaves *.... I question that highly.....cos from my point of view....we made things worse for them in a lot of ways

the abboriginals in australia,
the africans in africa
the native american indians in the US
the african / americans born in the US

the list goes on....and I am not talking about income and housing, jobs and rights......I am talking about their ability to function freely and fully in the society we told them to adapt to.....and how we * destroyed * their way of life to make them adapt to ours


I am not neo nazi, racist etc.... cos I look at the non coloured races as well....and we are no better.....its just that we write the history books according to our opinion of ourselves....and we choose to be blind to what we created

[darkeyes]

Funny enuff think me begins finally 2 c wotyas gettin at Duckie.. an far as it goes can agree wiv sum of it... no 1 shud hav the rite 2 tell ne 1 else how 2 live ther life..k... no probs wiv that.. but ya may think thats wotyas been sayin.. but yas not been doin it 2 well...its all been 2 confused 2 glean much sense outa it.. least till now.. an even then its a bitta a hotch pot.....

[Long Duck Dong]

if I could talk and type in the same way I think..... a lot of my mess would make a bloody sight more sense

my mistake was not making it clear that I was looking at the issue from the point of view of the people in the commune ...

that was the if we are not doing anything illegal and we wish to remain in that life style, why are people saying we can't.... and saying its cos we are brainwashed and conditioned, but we are safer in our commune than in main stream society

and also looking at it as mainstream society looking at a commune that lives ( the legal part ) in a way that we percieve as not right for us, therefore not right for them......


but also I am saying that for people in the commune that want out.... they should have the rights to help to a way out.... but we need to help them, not turn them into victims......cos we are already viewing them as victims so lets help turn them back into people again

[darkeyes]

C? Not so hard wiva lil thot Duckie babes!!! An can def go along wivya..not 2 sure ther aint a lil more 2 this than mayb ya seem 2 think but we'll c... 2 sum degree hav no doubt that the prejudices of society an the state r at play ere..but think ther is a lil more... wotch this space huh?:tong:

[shameless agitator]

if I could talk and type in the same way I think..... a lot of my mess would make a bloody sight more sense

my mistake was not making it clear that I was looking at the issue from the point of view of the people in the commune ...

that was the if we are not doing anything illegal and we wish to remain in that life style, why are people saying we can't.... and saying its cos we are brainwashed and conditioned, but we are safer in our commune than in main stream society

and also looking at it as mainstream society looking at a commune that lives ( the legal part ) in a way that we percieve as not right for us, therefore not right for them......


but also I am saying that for people in the commune that want out.... they should have the rights to help to a way out.... but we need to help them, not turn them into victims......cos we are already viewing them as victims so lets help turn them back into people againI would actually go along with this, as far as it goes. As I've maintained from the beginning, my beef with this group is the victimization of children. If it was all about consenting adults, I'd say more power to 'em. Even if the girls weren't getting married off until they were of legal age though, I would still wonder about consent. From what I know of the FLDS and similar sects, women are no more than chattel, and I don't think you can reasonably argue that somebody chose that lifestyle if they're never allowed to experience any other. I saw a news feed that most of the women have gone back to the compound. More power to them. Their children are in state custody though, which I think is as it should be.

[darkeyes]

I would actually go along with this, as far as it goes. As I've maintained from the beginning, my beef with this group is the victimization of children. If it was all about consenting adults, I'd say more power to 'em. Even if the girls weren't getting married off until they were of legal age though, I would still wonder about consent. From what I know of the FLDS and similar sects, women are no more than chattel, and I don't think you can reasonably argue that somebody chose that lifestyle if they're never allowed to experience any other. I saw a news feed that most of the women have gone back to the compound. More power to them. Their children are in state custody though, which I think is as it should be.

Can go long wiv summa wotya say babe..far as it goes an all... but waitin 2 c wot evidence ther is gainst em vis a vis the kids... wetha they shud b in state custody or not is at present summat me reservin me judgement on...2 many cases of child abuse hav kids taken way from parents wen it turns out no abuse happened at all... as a precaution ok...until investigated porperly...but me jus hopes the authorities r dead careful wiv these kids..cos they handle it rong...wetha taken em way from ome is rite or rong...then me agrees wiv Duckie bout it doin more harm or at least as much, than gud...

[darkeyes]

I would actually go along with this, as far as it goes. As I've maintained from the beginning, my beef with this group is the victimization of children. If it was all about consenting adults, I'd say more power to 'em. Even if the girls weren't getting married off until they were of legal age though, I would still wonder about consent. From what I know of the FLDS and similar sects, women are no more than chattel, and I don't think you can reasonably argue that somebody chose that lifestyle if they're never allowed to experience any other. I saw a news feed that most of the women have gone back to the compound. More power to them. Their children are in state custody though, which I think is as it should be.

Can go long wiv summa wotya say babe..far as it goes an all... but waitin 2 c wot evidence ther is gainst em vis a vis the kids... wetha they shud b in state custody or not is at present summat me reservin me judgement on...2 many cases of child abuse hav kids taken way from parents wen it turns out no abuse happened at all... as a precaution ok...until investigated porperly...but me jus hopes the authorities r dead careful wiv these kids..cos they handle it rong...wetha taken em way from ome is rite or rong...then me agrees wiv Duckie bout it doin more harm or at least as much, than gud...