A Jihad of Love

[12voltman59]

The title of this thread is the title of a new film by a gay Muslim filmmaker, Parvez Sharma. I have not seen the film but heard about the film thanks to an interview with Sharma yesterday on the NPR program "Day to Day."

More info on the film: http://hartleyfoundation.org/jihad-for-love

It was interesting to hear this man along with another author who has writen about those who are gay in the Muslim world.

They also mentioned the comments of Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad at Columbia when he said "we don't have gays in Iran like you have gays in the west."

I have to admit that when I heard that comment--I rolled my eyes, laughed and said: "Yeah, right!" Well I gues that showed my assumptions about things for I now find--I was wrong to assume that Ahmadinejad was full of it.

All of the Muslim guests on the show, as well as those Muslims who called in said that taken in context--Ahmadinejad is correct in that statement.

It was noted, that in the Muslim world--they have plenty of people who engage in homosexual behavior and that it has a degree of acceptance, with homosexual behavior on the part of both men and women is considered a right of passage, but the notion of GLBT people as we have in the west is not accepted or recognized in the Muslim world--that such a construct as "GLBT" is something we have in our culture and not theirs.

Sharma, the other guests and nearly every caller to the program said that in reality--homosexual behavior is pretty well accepted in the Muslim world--the only problem comes when the western model of "gayness" and lesbianism are promoted. The various regimes only seem to take action when mideastern GLBT people adopt the western mode----then the regimes respond very harshly--up to and including killing those who are caught engaging in homosexual activity--otherwise they seem to look the other way.

One caller from Iran but who lives in the US and travels back and forth between the two countries said he has a relationship with one of the top minsters in the Iranian government and that his lover had helped bring in the Iranian revolution back in the 1970s--they had met at a place known in Tehran as a gay meeting place.

Another guest on the program had written a book detailing how truly widespread male homosexuality is in the mideast and also how many places there are in cities like Cairo, Beirut and even in Saudi Arabia (one of the most extreme states in terms of Islamic law) where men seeking sex with other men can meet.

So-while we in the west have our notions of what being GLBT means--that is by no means universal and it is both a bit arrogant and ignorant to think that "we" (westerners) can impose our cultural norms on other cultures.

It was definitely an eye opener in this regard and at how generally ignorant we here in the west are regarding Middle Eastern and Muslim peoples--on not just this aspect--but in probably just about every other aspect of their lives and world too.

Things are always more complex and nuianced than what is portrayed in the spin we get from our media---whether that media is "liberal" or "conservative"---

[Skater Boy]

Erm... sorry Voltman, but I don't understand your point.

You say that some people are claiming that homosexuality doesn't exist in the Middle East, and yet you also state that homosexuality is, on closer inspection, quite commonplace there.

To me it doesn't sound like WESTERNERS are being ignorant as such. But more like that some people elsewhere don't want to admit the truth. "Denial" you could say.

Even if there is no "officially recognized" LGBT community in the Middle East, the fact that (you say) homosexuality regularly occurs there is enough to disprove the main point of your post. Unless you're just trying to tell us that its not officially recognized. But if you are is that really a good thing?

Its a bit like those guys who call themselves "straight" and then go messing around (sexually) with other men. The way I see it, you can call yourself whatever you like. But if you enjoy homosexual acts, then you are, in reality, NOT totally straight (ie. at least partially homosexual).

Furthermore, no-one is "imposing" any particular culture on anyone else, IMO. Your sexual label (eg. gay, bi, etc) is just that: an indication of your sexual preferences and nothing more. There is no rule that says just because you may be gay that you must adhere to any particular culture (Western or otherwise).

So when someone says there are "no gay people" in their country, is he really telling the truth?

Anyway, this is whole can of worms...

[ghytifrdnr]

SB, Volty's posting makes sense to me. They are making a differentiation between homosexual activity and "gay lifestyle". Perhaps you didn't read it closely.
:2cents:

[Skater Boy]

SB, Volty's posting makes sense to me. They are making a differentiation between homosexual activity and "gay lifestyle". Perhaps you didn't read it closely.
:2cents:

Oh I read it. But maybe I didn't interpret it in the same way as you. If he meant what you're saying, tbh it wouldn't surprise me if what a "gay lifestyle" meant differed from one place to another. In fact, I'd be HIGHLY suprised if it DIDN'T.

But to me being gay (or bisexual) is not as much a lifestyle choice but a statement about one's sexual preferences.

And if men are having sex with men ANYWHERE, then "homosexuality" is certainly present, even if "gayness" isn't.

[the mage]

The title of this thread is the title of a new film by a gay Muslim filmmaker, Parvez Sharma. I have not seen the film but heard about the film thanks to an interview with Sharma yesterday on the NPR program "Day to Day."

More info on the film: http://hartleyfoundation.org/jihad-for-love

It was interesting to hear this man along with another author who has writen about those who are gay in the Muslim world.

They also mentioned the comments of Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad at Columbia when he said "we don't have gays in Iran like you have gays in the west."

I have to admit that when I heard that comment--I rolled my eyes, laughed and said: "Yeah, right!" Well I gues that showed my assumptions about things for I now find--I was wrong to assume that Ahmadinejad was full of it.

All of the Muslim guests on the show, as well as those Muslims who called in said that taken in context--Ahmadinejad is correct in that statement.

It was noted, that in the Muslim world--they have plenty of people who engage in homosexual behavior and that it has a degree of acceptance, with homosexual behavior on the part of both men and women is considered a right of passage, but the notion of GLBT people as we have in the west is not accepted or recognized in the Muslim world--that such a construct as "GLBT" is something we have in our culture and not theirs.

Sharma, the other guests and nearly every caller to the program said that in reality--homosexual behavior is pretty well accepted in the Muslim world--the only problem comes when the western model of "gayness" and lesbianism are promoted. The various regimes only seem to take action when mideastern GLBT people adopt the western mode----then the regimes respond very harshly--up to and including killing those who are caught engaging in homosexual activity--otherwise they seem to look the other way.

One caller from Iran but who lives in the US and travels back and forth between the two countries said he has a relationship with one of the top minsters in the Iranian government and that his lover had helped bring in the Iranian revolution back in the 1970s--they had met at a place known in Tehran as a gay meeting place.

Another guest on the program had written a book detailing how truly widespread male homosexuality is in the mideast and also how many places there are in cities like Cairo, Beirut and even in Saudi Arabia (one of the most extreme states in terms of Islamic law) where men seeking sex with other men can meet.

So-while we in the west have our notions of what being GLBT means--that is by no means universal and it is both a bit arrogant and ignorant to think that "we" (westerners) can impose our cultural norms on other cultures.

It was definitely an eye opener in this regard and at how generally ignorant we here in the west are regarding Middle Eastern and Muslim peoples--on not just this aspect--but in probably just about every other aspect of their lives and world too.

Things are always more complex and nuianced than what is portrayed in the spin we get from our media---whether that media is "liberal" or "conservative"---

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,good gawd mannnn!!!.......................

You CONDONE this??

Its quite simple, if you break the rules and happen to be gay they have a convenient excuse to kill you quite legally.

Just HOW does any social reform occur?????????????
How do those people get rights ????

Its dont ask dont tell..or we'll kill you..

[DiamondDog]

People who are non-hetero/GLBT in those countries, even in more westernized countries like Turkey and Egypt, have to fight for their lives or risk being killed in support by their country's government/people (anyone remember the two gay teenagers who were hung in capital punishment by Iran?), stay closeted/hidden, have wives/husbands in arranged sexless marriages, and you're really putting your life at risk if you think you can openly be anything but your born gender and heterosexual there in the cultures of those countries.

Even if you would try to come out to your parents you would be disowned, severely beaten up, and in some cases if someone severely hurt or killed you from your family they would not be at fault.

The places in those countries that are considered gay meeting places are what we would consider public cruising areas here in the west.

I know that some north americans and europeans think that there's a huge gay sex industry in the middle east or in certain countries that it's open like it is in the US/Canada/Europe; but it's not fun for the people who live there and have to live by the laws of their country that would gladly kill them.

Also, don't forget that they don't care if you're bisexual or if you take the dominant/active role when you have sex with men.

In western north american/european countries we have it easy compared to people in those countries.

Here's a link to an article:

http://www.bimagazine.org/nonfict/pages/feature1.html

[12voltman59]

I was trying to say--that yes--homosexuality does very much exist in Middle Eastern Islamic countries---just that our western notion of what is gayness and the like is not recognized in these places.

I was also trying to make a point that while we have our concepts of all of this-our concepts are no way universal and that when we try to impose our cultural template on another culture--we can run into trouble---that is part of why we are having so many difficutlies with our foray into Iraq--tying to impose our Jeffersonian democratic ideals on Iraq were bound to failure.

As far as whether or not I condone or accept the way people in the Middle East look at homosexual behavior-it is really not my place to either condone nor condem---

I will try to see if NPR has an audio archive or a transcript of the program so people can hear the words of the people who participated in that segment so you can hear or read it for yourselves-- then post the link for that webpage.

If you can hear or read what these people's perspectives on the issue--I think you will have a clearer understanding of what they are about and what I was trying to say.

[12voltman59]

Actually--I incorrectly identified which program the interview aired on-it was "Talk of The Nation" not "Day to Day"

Here is the link to that program http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=14895672

They don't have a transcript but you can listen to an audio file of the show.

Another aspect of this program--we in the west do need to learn more about Islam generally--it is the fastest growing religon in the world and it is obviously an important part of what is going on in the world today.

If you haven't done so--go read the article that Diamond Dog posted a link to on this subject--it is very good.