What's With All These Kinky, Pagan Bisexuals?

[Brian]

By Dana Shaw

http://main.bisexual.com/forum/images/misc/miscstuff/author21.jpgA number of years ago I was sitting in a lounge space of a Wiccan church¹s main congregation and I suddenly realized that all the women around me identified as bisexual. I turned to one of the gals there and asked, "Are there any women you know of here who aren't bi?" The witchlet I was talking to looked around the room, mumbled to herself, consulted with a friend and replied saying that she could only think of one completely straight woman in the group. She added that there are some bi men, but mostly they're straight. I thought that was quite interesting and filed it away for later.

I've been a member and leader of a number of kinky groups over the past 18 years. I've observed that amongst kinky folks, the vast majority of women are at least open to playing with other women and many are bi-identified. While some of them only play or have sex with women because it's what their (mostly male) dominants want, few of them really object to it. Some of them have threesomes that include their male partners on a regular basis. Many of them play with other women regularly. Sometimes these men play with other men, though seeing sexual activity between men amongst the 'pansexual' kink community is fairly rare.

It's often been pointed out to me, as a person known for championing bi visibility, that the women in the kink community really don't seem to need bi community, since they have each other. Not having a bi-only community means not having to hide being kinky, since bi community is open to kink but it's not necessarily a given that the people there are understanding of kinky folks.

But it's not just about pagans and kinky people. There are many outcast groups that have a higher number of bisexual people than the Œregular¹ population. There is a strong prevalence of bisexuals (especially women) amongst role playing gamers, Goths, sci-fi fanatics, members of the Society for Creative Anachronism (SCA), community theatre folks, people very much into body modification and tattooing, and a huge number of other outcast groups too numerous to single out.

As for polyamorous folks, it should be unsurprising that most of them are bisexual, even if they choose not to use the label for a variety of reasons. Polyamory is about fluidity in relationships and sexuality, and that includes fluidity regarding sexual orientation and gender identity.

So why is bisexuality so common for people in these 'outcast' groups? Why do they find each other so easily and therefore lack a need for a community built specifically around bisexuality and its challenges?

When I was asked this question a number of years ago I felt that the answer lay in the idea of open-mindedness. If you've already become a member of one 'outcast' group such as goths, pagans, kinky people, etc., then it becomes easy to be accepting of other aspects of life that are socially unaccepted, such as same-sex relationships. But I felt that may not be the whole answer.

I took the question to a workshop at the 8th International Conference on Bisexuality, Gender and Sexual Diversity (8ICB) in Minneapolis in 2004, and asked the participants what they thought. I first asked them to come up with other groups they felt had a large population of bisexual people. Then we drew out the similarities in each of those groups. Finally, we talked about what drew bisexual people to them. The result was very interesting, but rather than consider that the final answer, I did the same workshop two more times, in 2005 and 2006. Each time there were some similarities in the answers, but the result went further.

At 9ICB in Toronto in 2006, I conducted this workshop with some of the ideas of the previous workshops already in my head wanting to delve further in to the heart of the matter. I think we finally hit the nail on the head there.

All of the outcast groups that we identified as having a fairly high population of bisexuals were noted for having challenged the norms of belief systems, relationship structures, values and ethics. These are the people who've thrown off the societally-imposed ideas of having a nuclear genetic family unit. They've rejected the judgements of their elders, which they view as unnecessarily restrictive in favour of the judgement of their peers, which is often more accepting. They have chosen to build their family amongst the people in the various outcast communities because their friends understand why they have rejected the standard values and ethics.

Specifically, people in these outcast groups have often challenged‹and then rejected‹the monotheistic ideal of North American judeo-christian notions of right and wrong. Most of them have also rejected ³traditional² religion. One of the strongest moralistic messages they reject is that of sex as sin. Once you can embrace it as a joyous, unshameful thing, sexuality can be viewed as more fluid and less restrictive. From there it's easy to consider homophobic rhetoric as a method of religious control for the purpose of furthering religion through the doctrine of procreation. Acceptance of or experimentation with same-sex attractions or sexual activity is a natural next step. Rather than rejecting homosexual behaviour, one can embrace it when the question of sex as sin is no longer an issue. It's no longer immoral, but natural.

There's more than just giving up on the idea of sex as sin and therefore homosexuality as sinful to there being so many bisexuals amongst these outcast groups. There's also the idea of shrugging off societal values of family and relationship structures in general. From there, it becomes easy to see heteronormative family structures as a construction of religion, which led to the construction of the family unit as sacred. Without the sacred family unit, you can accept any person or group as family by choice.

Suddenly we¹re no longer restricted to male-female relationships for the purpose of procreation and passing on the religious and societal ideals. We can choose whatever relationship structures we wish, unrestricted by whether or not they produce children and who raises them. It no longer matters how many mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers and whether or not they're genetically related. It's all family because we choose it to be so and we reinforce that by declaring this to whomsoever comes into contact with these intentional families.

Even where there are no children, families can come to mean "my community" or "my friends" or even, "my partners and their partners". This need not be restricted by gender, and thus, bisexuality is a natural outcome of having challenged and rejected the idea of the 'normal' family unit.

But why is it that there are so many more women who seem drawn to bisexuality than men in these outcast groups? Why is it not as common to see men going at it right next to the women? Why is it that many of these groups espouse openness to homosexuality but seem to be only accepting of it amongst women?

Even if you reject the ideas of heteronormative behaviour, there are some aspects of socialization that are very difficult to overcome. Despite the idea of male homosexuality being accepted in principle, men are so deeply socialized to reject expressions of affection amongst themselves that they have a hard time accepting it as natural. They've had it drilled into them from a very young age that men don't touch each other, shouldn't see each other touching and shouldn't want to be in physical contact except in expressions of mock combat (sports and organized competition) or true combat (struggles for dominance). The idea of being in physical contact for some other reason that isn't based on strength or posturing has been socialized as abhorrent, and rejecting that deeply ingrained socialization is as difficult as rejecting the idea that one shouldn't pass gas in front of the Queen of England. It's just simply 'not done'.

Women have it easy because we're socialized to be open to touching each other, dancing together, kissing and flirting. Add the male-dominated pornographic sexualization of women having sex together for men's entertainment and it stands to reason that women engaging in homosexual acts‹that sometimes do and sometimes don't include men‹is considered perfectly acceptable. We see it everywhere in our society.

So if that's the case, why is it that bisexual folks are able to be so comfortably 'out' as bisexual and engaged in multi-gendered relationships in these outcast groups and not in the general population? It's a simple matter of 'me too'.

In the general population it's not safe to express same-sex attraction because the expectation is that we conform to the societal norms of straight and valuing the ideal of the genetic nuclear family. Being in an outcast group means having already rejected those ideals as incompatible with one's value system. It makes it easier to behave in ways that challenge the existing structures. Once one person successfully challenges the heteronormative assumptions, it becomes very easy for others to follow, agreeing with the newly espoused of values around sexuality and relationships and accepting these as normal.

So.... back to the question. What's with all these kinky, pagan (and other outcast groups) bisexuals? Quite simply, it's because we've already chosen that this reality is normal... for us.

***

Dana Shaw is a self-identified bi-dyke, kinky, poly, Wiccan Chaplain who's crazily putting together two conferences within six weeks in spring of 2006 - 9icb and TOKink. Dana has been an organizer with Bisexual Women of Toronto (http://www.biwot.org/) since 1999 and with Toronto Bisexual Network (http://www.torontobinet.org/) and BiNetCanada (http://www.binetcanada.ca/) since 2001. She previously presented at the North American Conference on Bisexuality, Gender and Sexual Diversity in Vancouver in 2001 and at the 8th International Conference on Bisexuality in 2004. Dana is a contributor to Getting Bi: Voices of Bisexuals Around the World (http://www.robynochs.com/Getting_Bi/reviews.html), edited by Robyn Ochs. She has also contributed to the bi women's zine The Fence (http://www.thefence.ca/) and other articles in print and web. Dana is passionate about ensuring that there are safe bi spaces for the broad diversity of those who might claim them.

(c) Copryight 2006 Dana Shaw

[ghytifrdnr]

I agree completely that the concept of sex being sinful is just a social/religeous construct designed for control, and that rejecting that idea is the path to freedom no matter what your kink. :cool:

[flexuality]

By Dana Shaw


Even if you reject the ideas of heteronormative behaviour, there are some aspects of socialization that are very difficult to overcome. Despite the idea of male homosexuality being accepted in principle, men are so deeply socialized to reject expressions of affection amongst themselves that they have a hard time accepting it as natural. They've had it drilled into them from a very young age that men don't touch each other, shouldn't see each other touching and shouldn't want to be in physical contact except in expressions of mock combat (sports and organized competition) or true combat (struggles for dominance). The idea of being in physical contact for some other reason that isn't based on strength or posturing has been socialized as abhorrent, and rejecting that deeply ingrained socialization is as difficult as rejecting the idea that one shouldn't pass gas in front of the Queen of England. It's just simply 'not done'.


That really is a great article! There are a lot of truths in it. :)

While I do agree with the idea of men being somewhat repressed by society in terms of expressing affection, etc, I am also very hesitant to point to this as the *only* reason. I am also not convinced that mens expressions of "mock combat", strength and posturing is somehow "bad" or strictly imposed by society.

Men and women are, in fact, wired differently. It is not bad, wrong or society imposed. One is not better than the other. We are just different. We are supposed to be, and it's all good.

I'll grant you that society *does* heavily influence these differences, but then it also turns around and tries to say that men are somehow "deficient" in their ability to express emotion in the same way that women do.

While it may be true to a certain extent that men don't express emotion the same as women do because it's "simply not done", I believe that is only part of the equation. I think a larger part of the equation would be that men "simply don't express emotion in the same way that women do."

Why do we keep trying to fix something that's not broken?

I find it a bit ironic that within these "outcast" groups (as you refer to them) that seem to highly value and try to be very accepting of the diversity of the human condition, have a tendency to be ignorant of the value, and rather unaccepting, of the wonderful and diverse differences between men and women.

[12voltman59]

This is a great article--my God--so much of what she says is --well----ME!!!

I basically have done many of the things she speaks of--I had a time when I was very active as a pagan/wiccan and I had rejected the formal religion I had been brought up with--Roman Catholocism--I became a member of a Unitarian Universalist congregation for a time.

I did reject very early the notion that I had to become a parent---having children was something I had not much interest in doing.

Along with some friends from my UU church--we investigated the poly lifestyle as well.

I had done all of these things long before I had acknowledged I was not fully a "str8" person, but I certainly had my suspicions I was not.

Excellent article--thanks Drew and company for posting that article!!!

[stuporman]

Dear Dana,
I have been a student of Gavin and Yvonne's Church and School of Wicca for over 20 years. Sex is beautiful, sex is glorious, but sex, quite frankly, is such a pain in the ass to get its hardly even worth discussing. Give me my 700 watt Peavey bass amp with crossover, my 2 Peavey 15"cabinets, a good bunch of musicians, and a good crowd, all the beer I can drink, and I'm happy.
Music is what makes me happy.....I get the validation and acceptance I never got sexually, and probably never will. MY band is trying to set up a gig in Atlantic City, NJ during the Frosts Beltane Celebration. I've earned initiation into the Craft....perhaps I ought to get my ass dedicated this year. I also look forward to rattling Glenn 'Boy Scout" Malec's cage by vomiting onstage.... and I have some new comedy bits I want to try out, using my old friend Bill Nolan, who was the vocalist for The Bastards, a band/comedy act I used to play with. So pack up your balls and load up your cannons for a 21 gun salute.......and have a drink on me. -Roger "Stuporman" Boni 31YI

[DiamondDog]

This article is OK.

I personally find discussion of paganism and polyamory to be rather pointless though.

Most pagans I meet seem to be so hardcore into it that they remind me of fundementalist Christians.

I don't see polyamory as being revolutionary either.

But kink I am all for! ;)

[SpaZZ]

But why is it that there are so many more women who seem drawn to bisexuality than men in these outcast groups? Why is it not as common to see men going at it right next to the women? Why is it that many of these groups espouse openness to homosexuality but seem to be only accepting of it amongst women?

*******************************
Reading through your piece, I recognized several observations that were similar to mine over the years but if I may, I'd like to amend or qualify the way I have observed them from my unique male (but not chauvinistic) perspective.

It's true that in the observable social context, there seems to be far more women who identify as bisexual than men and the media which includes mostly entertainment, helps support this ideology. The media will glamourise, even trivialise anything that espouses being "in". For some reason, this categorically includes bi and gay men. A marginalisation which can mostly be attributed to suggestive messages from Hollyweird, to chip the tip of the iceberg, over the years. This marginalistaion has caused its shocking share of violence and grief. Stigma and dogma are proverbial bitches.

But these monolistic ideals just don't add up. There has to be something more than what we see. I think we can all agree that slight of hand is the media's best trick. How men are affected and treated because of their various levels of homosexual senses, part of what and who they are, makes them conceal it as a survival mechanism.

So where do you find this out? Gay bars and alternative bars and events maybe but it's still far too visible for some men to handle. When some men have been murdered for "looking" gay, believe me, the fear of exposure men feel keeps some to curl their neckhairs 24/7. It can be very tense. Many, but not most, are married raising kids and they're in a deep turmoil because of the possible consequences should the news get out. The pressure is enormous if your wife is homophobic. The stakes are very high.

Men have needs and desires just as women do. And those needs and desires vary as much as retinal patterns and snowflakes. What men have needed over the centuries was a place out of the way. Out of sight, out of mind.

Saunas.

If it wasn't for these temples of male sexuality, their suicide rate (which is already about twice as high than women's) would reach much alarming numbers. They're the safest place on earth where men can, away from any prejudicial view from a tyrranic and controlling minority to liberate themselves and express their sexuality. Not that several of the guys who go there wouldn't mind having women around too :) but the very fact that they've found a place where other men like them go. The therapeutic value alone is incalculable.

It makes me wonder why women don't have similar vestiges. There must be great suffering. When you factor in these types of establishments and the internet, chatlines and parks, you have a buffer on the perceived amount of gay or bisexual men. Likely, for women too. I have an idea. Call me!

SpaZZ

[Rhuth]

My own version of chicken vs. egg...

I was never a member of any of these "outcast" groups until after I identified as bisexual. I sought them out as a place to find dates once I realized I would like to date both men and women.

I am trying, but can not for the life of me, think of the reason I knew I would find other bisexuals there. I certainly was not thinking "these groups are open minded". It was a more primal, selfish reason for seeking the groups out. I was like the proverbial frat boy going to a party to pick up on chicks.

I would like to think I was more cerebral. I wish it was me "challenging the monotheistic ideal of North American Judeo-Christian notions of right and wrong". But in all honesty I just wanted to get some, and went to these groups to find it.

So, for me, bisexuality came first. Then kinky polyamorus role playing Wicca sci-fi in the SCA came second. :bigrin:

[sammie19]

My own version of chicken vs. egg...

I was never a member of any of these "outcast" groups until after I identified as bisexual. I sought them out as a place to find dates once I realized I would like to date both men and women.

I am trying, but can not for the life of me, think of the reason I knew I would find other bisexuals there. I certainly was not thinking "these groups are open minded". It was a more primal, selfish reason for seeking the groups out. I was like the proverbial frat boy going to a party to pick up on chicks.

I would like to think I was more cerebral. I wish it was me "challenging the monotheistic ideal of North American Judeo-Christian notions of right and wrong". But in all honesty I just wanted to get some, and went to these groups to find it.

So, for me, bisexuality came first. Then kinky polyamorus role playing Wicca sci-fi in the SCA came second. :bigrin:

Well said Rhuth. Sometimes I think people attempt to over-intellectualise why they do what they do and as often as not deceive themselves in the process. I too "just wanted to get some" and if it took joining some quasi intellectual or fad group to do it so be it. However poseurish they may have been they didnt seem to mind because I think they were there for just the same reason in the end and their prattle and self justification never really washed. luv

[Azrael]

Well, I'm a bi male pagan, but I sure as hell don't know any others. I know oodles of bi pagan women, though.

[Rhuth]

Well said Rhuth. Sometimes I think people attempt to over-intellectualise...Thank you, Sammie! I just want to make clear that it was not my intention to accuse Dana Shaw of over intellectualization. On the contrary, I absolutely enjoy reading seemingly unnecessary analysis of sociology. The article is obviously well researched and documented too.

My point was only to add to her analysis another dimension that could be explored. While I found bisexuality first, and went to these groups to find dates, that might not be the case for everyone. It is just as likely that someone else likes all that these groups have to offer, and became bisexual afterward because someone like me kept trying to pick up on them.

Ms. Shaw only pointed out that these crossovers exist, and then touched on reasons why they exist and what it means to bisexuals as a group. Her speculations were founded on years of personal interviews and group discussions in formal settings. By default, such studies are never exact science, but I almost always find them interesting. I thank her for her efforts, and want to encourage her to continue.

In addition to my chicken vs. egg question, we could come up with countless other questions for her to follow up with. Much more than any one person or group could cover in a lifetime. I especially found the question previous posters posed questioning weather masculine combative interaction was really a bad thing. What kind of society is really ideal?

For me, it brought to mind studies of chimpanzees (http://www.releasechimps.org/chimpanzees/chimpanzee-society/) with their patriarchal social structure, and the bonobos (http://www.unl.edu/rhames/bonobo/bonobo.htm) with their matriarchal social structure. The bonobos are highly bisexual, and the males still engage in combative posturing even though they have nothing to gain socially from it. There was footage in a documentary where one male changed his mind mid-charge and decided to end the confrontation in sex instead. Now THERE is an AFL football game I would enjoy watching in a human society!

[DiamondDog]

*******************************
Reading through your piece, I recognized several observations that were similar to mine over the years but if I may, I'd like to amend or qualify the way I have observed them from my unique male (but not chauvinistic) perspective.

It's true that in the observable social context, there seems to be far more women who identify as bisexual than men and the media which includes mostly entertainment, helps support this ideology. The media will glamourise, even trivialise anything that espouses being "in". For some reason, this categorically includes bi and gay men. A marginalisation which can mostly be attributed to suggestive messages from Hollyweird, to chip the tip of the iceberg, over the years. This marginalistaion has caused its shocking share of violence and grief. Stigma and dogma are proverbial bitches.

But these monolistic ideals just don't add up. There has to be something more than what we see. I think we can all agree that slight of hand is the media's best trick. How men are affected and treated because of their various levels of homosexual senses, part of what and who they are, makes them conceal it as a survival mechanism.

So where do you find this out? Gay bars and alternative bars and events maybe but it's still far too visible for some men to handle. When some men have been murdered for "looking" gay, believe me, the fear of exposure men feel keeps some to curl their neckhairs 24/7. It can be very tense. Many, but not most, are married raising kids and they're in a deep turmoil because of the possible consequences should the news get out. The pressure is enormous if your wife is homophobic. The stakes are very high.

Men have needs and desires just as women do. And those needs and desires vary as much as retinal patterns and snowflakes. What men have needed over the centuries was a place out of the way. Out of sight, out of mind.

Saunas.

If it wasn't for these temples of male sexuality, their suicide rate (which is already about twice as high than women's) would reach much alarming numbers. They're the safest place on earth where men can, away from any prejudicial view from a tyrranic and controlling minority to liberate themselves and express their sexuality. Not that several of the guys who go there wouldn't mind having women around too :) but the very fact that they've found a place where other men like them go. The therapeutic value alone is incalculable.

It makes me wonder why women don't have similar vestiges. There must be great suffering. When you factor in these types of establishments and the internet, chatlines and parks, you have a buffer on the perceived amount of gay or bisexual men. Likely, for women too. I have an idea. Call me!

SpaZZ

There are bath houses for women but they're in San Francisco, Canada, and probably in europe and Asia too.

As far as I've been told by lesbian/bi women that go to such places is that they're not like men's bath houses.

Men's bath houses are havens for disease, meth, barebacking (unprotected anal sex), and closted men (most of whom are married and cheating) who wouldn't be caught dead in a queer bar/club/space (i.e. a social or discussion group, or just a social club that's not all about sex/hooking up).

From what I gather about women's bath houses is that they're havens for safer sex (latex gloves, dental dams/saran wrap, and condoms for toys are provided/mandatory) and while women do go there for sex you don't have to go there for sex and if you REALLY do want sex it's very easy to find; but some women go there to socalize or just meet other like minded women or something of a "community" if you will.

As far as parks and adult bookstores, avoid those places they're full of disease, dodgy/sketchy characters, closeted married men, and sometimes they can be raided by undercover cops.

Yes I will admit I am biased against closeted gay/bi men but I've seriously had horrible experiences with them (like having them flip out at me, tell me I'm the one with problems not them, tell me how I'll become Poz/HIV+ [when closeted/married men take HORRIBLE risks such as barebacking or swallowing], or beat me up and call me a faggot) and I've met ones that are so closeted that they don't even know that they're gay/bi/queer/non-het.

I feel compassion for them but again I see this as living a lie and partialy their own fault that they aren't out to their spouse/partner, and frankly I'm sick and tired of playing therapist/Dr. Phil for closeted men who won't take me or my advice seriously.

The way I see it is that you only get one life, so why live a complete lie and pretend that you're heterosexual?

[bearisbare]

There are bath houses for women but they're in San Francisco, Canada, and probably in europe and Asia too.

As far as I've been told by lesbian/bi women that go to such places is that they're not like men's bath houses.

Men's bath houses are havens for disease, meth, barebacking (unprotected anal sex), and closted men (most of whom are married and cheating) who wouldn't be caught dead in a queer bar/club/space (i.e. a social or discussion group, or just a social club that's not all about sex/hooking up).

From what I gather about women's bath houses is that they're havens for safer sex (latex gloves, dental dams/saran wrap, and condoms for toys are provided/mandatory) and while women do go there for sex you don't have to go there for sex and if you REALLY do want sex it's very easy to find; but some women go there to socalize or just meet other like minded women or something of a "community" if you will.

I can only speak for Toronto, but I could say for it that not one women's bathhouse night in Toronto has happened in a place that is exclusively for women and trans people. Generally, the events are two to four times a year, so the vast majority of the year, the same place is a men's sauna.

[Bi-ten]

I love Rhuth's perspective, you are both intelligent and beautiful hon!

Loved the article, even the 'unecessary analysis'. As a trans-itional guy I have found a great deal of pressure to be the 'man' I am supposed to be. From my parents, piers, siblings, x- wife, girlfriends...the list goes on. Even now I find I have to think twice before holding another mans hand. Who will see us, are we in a safe place for such affection?

Slowly I have shunned or cast off the fetters of society, organized religion, homophobia, racism, intolerance, gender roles, marketing, and mens underwear! The more of these things I choose to lose, the greater is my joy and capacity to love.

I am no longer catholic, I am spiritual. I am not bisexual, gay, or straight, I am sexual. I am no longer male or female, white or dark, I am human. These things do not define me, therefore I am free.

As Jesus once said 'I am'. I hope that we can all feel the same way.

Hugs, Sally

[12voltman59]

Well, I'm a bi male pagan, but I sure as hell don't know any others. I know oodles of bi pagan women, though.

I do have to agree with you Az---I had kind of hoped to find other guys who were pagan/wiccan who were bi or "bicurious" I was just coming to a realization that I might have some bicurius desires--they were starting to emerge at the time.

I knew that many of the ladies who were pagan/wiccan were bi or lesbian---I figured the guys would be, but no---the guys I met were very much hetero.

In the rather small community of pagan/wiccans in our area at the time--the ladies who I liked and who liked me were already with guys or gals---

[SpaZZ]

Men's bath houses are havens for disease, meth, barebacking (unprotected anal sex), and closted men (most of whom are married and cheating) who wouldn't be caught dead in a queer bar/club/space (i.e. a social or discussion group, or just a social club that's not all about sex/hooking up).

From what I gather about women's bath houses is that they're havens for safer sex (latex gloves, dental dams/saran wrap, and condoms for toys are provided/mandatory) and while women do go there for sex you don't have to go there for sex and if you REALLY do want sex it's very easy to find; but some women go there to socalize or just meet other like minded women or something of a "community" if you will.

This is sort of seedy understanding of gay or bi men and men in general. But I can understand it. Now I can't be positive but I'm just guessing that the last time you went to a gay sauna was a very longtime ago. No matter.

Listen, the majority of guys who hang out in saunas are there just to hang out (as it were). If they're married, it's likelier that the problem is at home and not in society.

Condom wrappers are a common sight on floors in the corridors, rooms. That's a sign that the education is working. Guys do talk to each other in these places. They open up more. Sure, saunas have a certain level of micro-organisms but so did a Toronto restaurant though people still went to eat there.

In saunas, men take excessive showers. With soap, even. They exchange towels regularly. The sheets on beds are changed every time a room is given up. I don't know that many people who swallow or even have anal sex for that matter. Most guys are into toys, if anything. Their own. They don't trade. I'm sure you can appreciate how expensive a collection can be. And we haven't figured out a use for saran wrap other than bringing along a sandwich. Sex makes you hungry. :bigrin:

Sure, there's creepy guys out there! I've met my share of creepy women too. But that's a small minority of people on the whole. Most people are good and not a selfish, lazy, boneheaded, disease-infested, bastard worm.

I'm not trying to be malicious, but I wouldn't be able to categorise men and women in such a yin and yeng fashion. I've never actually seen women be truly intimate with each other, at least, not without a camera. I'm not sure that I'm alllowed to make a judgement call or even speculate. Actually to me, that's the beauty of loving women. To seek their essence at its freshest moment. And then get blasted high and do something absolutely freakin' crazy like turn it into music or art. Yeah!

People can get sick anywhere. And there are alot of reasons for it. Disease doesn't differentiate between genders. I think that's more of a human response. Women and men are more alike than unalike. It really depends on each individual. I do like your points on health issues and agree with them totally. Thanks for bringing it up. :bibounce: :flag1:

[purple rose]

i am a bi pagan woman and my husband is a bi pagan man and i took offense to alot of the things in your article and it is my oppinion that you absolutely do not know what you are talking about when it comes to wicca. i have never felt like an "outcast" and do not appreciate being categorised by you or stereotyped and i don't think anyone i know would appreciate it either. i was raised christian, but i knew from an early age that conventional religion is not all there is and is not the whole truth. i think it is completely ignorant for anyone in any religion to judge anyone else because of their beliefs or sexual orientation. the reason there are so many diverse "outcasts" in wicca is because we are a nature based religion that accepts everyone for who they are and we do not judge any one for sexual preference or personal beliefs, unlike other religions that judge you if you don't believe what they want you to or what they think you should. the Bible says we all have free will and if practicing the one basic power that everyone possesses makes one an "outcast", then i feel sorry for those who don't and to me they are the real outcasts. we are entitled to our oppinions and beliefs, but ifeel if you are going to speak about a particular group of people or about a particular subject that you should atleast be educated enough on the topic to give a well informed oppinion and not just ignorant uninformed oppinions!

[biame2]

Thats so true , well i am different from the rest of the crowd, im not in a group but its easy to see that im not part of the NORMS.
Its sad at the same time , because if i dont go into certain group im not accepted......and me ....if im attracted to""NORMAL'' people and no goth or what ever the name, what am i suppose to do.........still not really easy all that stuff....

Was nice to read ya .

[hudson9]

I have to say that I think that "outcast" is a poor choice of words for these groups -- particularly if you're including community theatre and sci-fi fans, for example. I'm a theatre person, artist, musician, somewhat bisexual, and a "leftist," but have never considered myself an "outcast." It is true that bisexuality is more accepted/tolerated in these groups than in the general population. That female bisexuality is more accepted in these groups than male bisexuality, actually mirrors the general population(!). I do think that the source of the greater acceptance of bisexuality by people in these groups (wether community theatre folks or polyamourous wiccans) can be because they have recognized that there is something different in themselves from many others, and this engenders a certain empathy for other "different" people. Sometimes; but not always -- take the "Log Cabin Republicans" for instance. Their interest in their own civil rights as homosexuals has not translated into empathy for the ecconomically disadvantaged, immigrants, minorities, or even advocacy of the separation of church and state. As far as "kink" goes, I think that's a separate (if overlapping) question. The diplomat recently in the news who was discovered in a public space drunk, nude, tied-up, "wearing"[?] several sex-toys -- this guy definately had some major kink going on, but as a member of the international diplomatic corp, you could hardly classsify him as an "outcast!"
I also think the characterization of religion is grossly oversimplified. As a religious person, member of a mainline-protestant group, I have never found my religious beliefs to push me towards intollerance, social control, or to repress my sexuality. Just the opposite, it has been one of the sources of my progressive political beliefs and my acceptance of people from other groups (religious, ethnic, or gender-preference). I admit that I am in the minority in this regard, but I'm not the only one -- you only have to look to the civil rights movement, or the large factions of the Episcopal Church that are defending gay clergy and gay marriage to see 2 examples.
I am sure there are many examples of the dynamic you describe, but I think you extrapolate a bit too broadly. I remember a logic lesson from high-school geometry -- "All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares."

Peace.

[ManInThong]

The article was very truthful and informative, thanks much for posting. As dumb as this sounds... old TV shows like the 'Adams Family' were always popular, not so much because they were funny, but they were so much 'against the norm'.. a real opposite of what society was all about. This explains why the parents of so many of the 'baby bombers' objected to their kids watching those type shows.

I realized I was 'bi' when I was 14 years old and have always accepted the alternative groups for the exact reasons you stated.

I look forward to seeing more of your posts..

[Enoll]

I totaly agree that males are so beaten in with the no same sex affection thing. A friend and I had a conversation about it afew months back.
My thinking is that there's alot more bi males out there but they don't want to compromise thier lumberjack/pirate/footballer male type image , if you get what I mean.

[wolfcamp]

I thought this was a very interesting article, and I had a number of questions and observations spring to mind as I was reading.

First, why would there be a larger proportion of bi women than bi men in these fringe groups. Is this assumption valid? I'll say that I have never been to a Wiccan gathering, so I am not sure about the sexual overtones at these gatherings. Could it be that women open up to women on this topic in a way that men would not? In a group setting, would a man be as likely to admit bisexual tendencies to a woman? I think it's not as likely. Keep in mind that men (especially bisexual men) are still on the prowl for women, and admitting to being a bisexual might be perceived by him as hurting his chances of picking up a woman. Just how do you know that most or all of the women in a group are bi? Do you just say, "Hi, I'm bi, are you?" This isn't a facetious question. I am just curious.

It could be that a different social dynamic operates for women than for men. Women seem to be drawn to groups where it is safer, and maybe more validating to search for partners. Men, on the other hand, may tend to operate on more of a one to one basis where the risks are higher than a woman would accept. Men might tend to look for partners on the internet among other places, and set up meetings one on one where the intent of the meeting is known beforehand. It's more risky for a man to walk around a group with no sexual context (maybe I should say no bisexual/gay context - there is always a sexual context in groups of men and women) and say, "Hi, I'm bi, are you?" This is just asking to get in a fight, or worse.

I am probably projecting from my own experience and tendencies. I am somewhat shy in groups. It takes me a while to say my name and ask the names of others. Discussing my sexual orientation is several orders of social magnitude beyond that.

Regards,
WC

[lonewolf]

ive had a few realtionships that never lasted 2 were striaght one was gay.
the gay one one upset me more than most
im not into one night stands or anything
just hoping to meet men /women who are interested in simlar things to me ie art , poetry wildlife and lots of other things besides
thanks

[ghytifrdnr]

I totaly agree that males are so beaten in with the no same sex affection thing. A friend and I had a conversation about it afew months back.
My thinking is that there's alot more bi males out there but they don't want to compromise thier lumberjack/pirate/footballer male type image , if you get what I mean.

I suspect you're completely right! ;)

[ghytifrdnr]

BTW, does anyone but me think Dana Shaw's photo is HOT! :bigrin:

[Readytwo]

Love your article. I grew up in a family where I learned sex is a good thing. No matter how u do it or who it is with. I wish everyone felt that way. The world would be a much better place.

[wanderingrichard]

wow, she's pretty much hit on the head and summed up my world and that of many of my playmates... :bibounce:

[BlackOrchid]

*******************************
It makes me wonder why women don't have similar vestiges. There must be great suffering. When you factor in these types of establishments and the internet, chatlines and parks, you have a buffer on the perceived amount of gay or bisexual men. Likely, for women too. I have an idea. Call me!
SpaZZ

Feel free to share your idea here, SpaZZ, and nice to hear from you!

[BlackOrchid]

My own version of chicken vs. egg...
I am trying, but can not for the life of me, think of the reason I knew I would find other bisexuals there. I certainly was not thinking "these groups are open minded". <snip> So, for me, bisexuality came first. Then kinky polyamorus role playing Wicca sci-fi in the SCA came second. :bigrin:

Some people figure out sexual identity before finding these groups, and some find the groups and discover sexual identity after. There's no 'right' way, but there is definitely a seeming connection between the two.

[BlackOrchid]

There are bath houses for women but they're in San Francisco, Canada, and probably in europe and Asia too.

You refer to Canada, but the country is pretty darned big. More specifically, there are bathhouses 1-4 times per year in Toronto and more rarely in other cities like Halifax in Nova Scotia on the east coast.


As far as I've been told by lesbian/bi women that go to such places is that they're not like men's bath houses.

They are most certainly not like men's bathhouses. Queer women's community tends to be smaller, so anonymity is much, much harder to come by. Safer sex practices are encouraged, though nobody is policing it and while supplies are provided, they're not always used and some folks bring their own.


some women go there to socalize or just meet other like minded women or something of a "community" if you will.

Many people attending women's bathhouses go in groups, but they're encouraged to wander around on their own if they want to hook up with someone because it's hard to work up courage to approach someone who appears to be in a group or couple. But even though people meet up for supper ahead of time or go to breakfast in groups after, the community portion is minimal.


As far as parks and adult bookstores, avoid those places they're full of disease, dodgy/sketchy characters, closeted married men, and sometimes they can be raided by undercover cops.

In 2001 the Pussy Palace (Toronto) was raided. After a lengthy legal battle of several years, the case was won in the civil courts (they were charged on liquor license violations, which is standard practise for cops to lay charges on something they don't like. It was also won in the Human Rights Tribunal, where as a result, the cops are now required to be educated in queer rights. While it took lots of time and money (and anxiety), it turned out for the better that the women's bathhouse got raided.


The way I see it is that you only get one life, so why live a complete lie and pretend that you're heterosexual?

I wouldn't disagree about that at all. I'd only say that people have a right to choose their level of engagement, involvement, etc. For some, sex isn't worth changing anything else in their lives. Not my values, but c'est la vie.

[BlackOrchid]

I can only speak for Toronto, but I could say for it that not one women's bathhouse night in Toronto has happened in a place that is exclusively for women and trans people. Generally, the events are two to four times a year, so the vast majority of the year, the same place is a men's sauna.

Quite so. There are NO spaces available that are for women and trans people only. We have to fight against ideas that women will somehow damage men's spaces and shouldn't be there at all. Bathhouses for men are not so welcoming of women. Some won't allow us there at all lest we bleed on things or something.

[BlackOrchid]

i am a bi pagan woman and my husband is a bi pagan man and i took offense to alot of the things in your article and it is my oppinion that you absolutely do not know what you are talking about when it comes to wicca.

You say I shouldn't talk about things I don't know about. I agree.
I've been a Wiccan High Priestess in th Alexandrian tradition for 14 years. I've been the Wiccan Chaplain at the University of Toronto for the past 4 years.


i have never felt like an "outcast" and do not appreciate being categorised by you or stereotyped and i don't think anyone i know would appreciate it either.

In this case I'm referring specifically to groups that contain people that do not fit into societal norms - straight, christian, conservative. If you want to refer to that in some other way, feel free. It's not a judgement, just a descriptive term.

[BlackOrchid]

I have to say that I think that "outcast" is a poor choice of words for these groups -- particularly if you're including community theatre and sci-fi fans, for example. I'm a theatre person, artist, musician, somewhat bisexual, and a "leftist," but have never considered myself an "outcast."

Feel free to use another word to describe groups that aren't based on straight, christian, conservative ideals. As I mention in a reply above, it's not a value judgement, just a descriptive term.


That female bisexuality is more accepted in these groups than male bisexuality, actually mirrors the general population(!).

I agree! The fact that women are more prevalent as bi in our society is a fairly common phenomenon.


I also think the characterization of religion is grossly oversimplified. As a religious person, member of a mainline-protestant group, I have never found my religious beliefs to push me towards intollerance, social control, or to repress my sexuality. Just the opposite

That's great! I'm not claiming that these generalizations are true for all people, only that observation shows them to be true *in general*.

[BlackOrchid]

Could it be that women open up to women on this topic in a way that men would not? <snip> Just how do you know that most or all of the women in a group are bi? Do you just say, "Hi, I'm bi, are you?" This isn't a facetious question. I am just curious.

It's certainly likely that women are socialized to be more open in general about things that men would consider private. However, mostly we find out about each other being bi over a meal, when one feels it important to mention it to the other one-on-one, or sexual behaviour is observed amongst women and then the assumption is made that it's okay.

If you're shy, it's harder to be open about your sexuality in general.

[BlackOrchid]

BTW, does anyone but me think Dana Shaw's photo is HOT! :bigrin:

(blush) Why, thank you!!

[wanderingrichard]

ok let me clarify what i'd stated a bit earlier, i was pretty vague and it didnt come out the way i wanted it to.

i belong to a very sex positive group out here in pacnw.. it's "one of those yahoo groups" gasp!@! and i shared this topic with them on their message board by way of a url / link /referral/recommendation to come read it. why? because when i read it, i immediately thought of them.

it's also a swingers group for the " not so pretty people", in other words, us regular folks who have real lives, careers, kids, dogs and cats, financial worries etc, you know, just, PEOPLE! most of us are in our 40's or so, some well into their 60's and i think we even have a few septugenarians too...

i've seen 1st hand the situationally bi thing, mostly because of very controlling hubbies or very sub wives, and the truly bi women roles, well, pretty much , with this group i've seen most everything..

what i can also tell you is that almost every person i've met in this group, and one or two others, is either pagan or non christian, non mainstream in their religion.

i've also noticed that these folks have a totally different freedom of mindset concerning their bodies and sex and partners in general.

but, please do not construe it to mean that they are not principled or dont have standards . quite the opposite, many of us could do well to better our lives to follow thier examples. they have got to be some of the warmest and loving people you'll ever meet outside your own family.. in fact , here, their standard greeting goes something along the lines of " welcome to our wild, wide,whacky weird warm and loving family" and they really mean it.

outcasts? not hardly.. community? very most definitely.. a mirror of the rest of the true population? oh hell yeah..

anyway, sorry to have rambled and lost the whole thought train.. what i'm getting at is that i agree ,based on 1st hand knowledge, with just about everything the author has said, and with the perceptions and postings about the reasons why women seem to be more openly bi and men not.

[Drain]

[object Object][object Object]I am a role-player, am into tattoo's, and have hung around with goth's (though wouldn't really call myself one). I am also as bi as a bi thing from bi-town! :tong: I don't feel that I am an outcast. I feel that the people who are "outcasting" me are really outcasting themselves because they are closed to any idea that does not follow the conventional way of thinking.

Maybe it is just that people who are open to unconventional views are also more open to bisexuality. If so, then great. They are more interesting people anyway.

Besides, who excludes prople from their group based on the fact they have views or a way of life that is not seen as the norm? Nobody I want to drink any beer with!

[aquist]

yes, black orchids photo is hot, everytime i see her picture i want to pvt her and tell her she moves me :tong:

[SpaZZ]

Of course, I hope that any interested parties will contact me about this but I always thought that a facility fronted by an alternative café would include 2 sauna/spas sharing resources such as plumbing, heat and such. On one side: women only :female::female: and on the other men:male::male: and women:female::female:. :three: I think there are enough gay saunas catering to men only in any major city that it would be futile to even go in that direction. I wouldn't want to compete with those excellent establishments either.

The café would allow for strength in numbers :bibounce: :flag1: for safety.

What do you think?

[polyamour2000]

:cool: Dear Bi Di:
I too am a practicing Celtic/Druid, now loosely defined as Pagan, and sometimes Wiccan. In the true form, as I am a lineage "Cailleach D'Eyre" we, all of us were Polyamorous, male/female regardless. Of course after the Catholics took over Ireland/Scotland; The Highlands and depicted "us" as devil worshippers[hah, can't worship that which has no name nor place]we retreated and lived in secrecy, and our mainstay-love, sex, pleasure, and celebration of these acts/Maypole etc. were hidden. The 60's [an era I was born into]allowed for some of the old ways to be talked about by grandmothers etc./ and these stories were carelessly slid into our "Christian/Americanized lifestyles" .As time progresses the Goddess will have her "children" back as her "Witches" slowly teach the humans that they are not born evil and with sin, and they do not have to repent or spend an eternity in "Christian Hell", and that we were made out of pure pleasure and love, AND THROUGH SEX! IN ALL ITS WONDERFUL, PASSIONATE GLORY! The truth is that most men are bisexual, but are socialized into hiding it, but most have had atleast one experience is my "experience" . Ask them in a non-disclosing way, and they'll admit it. I am raising my children to respect the Celtic/Gaelic traditions,we believe we are all one, and no-one better, or less, and in the Celts way of life, the women were as equals, thereby leaving less of a strain on the male population to feel as though MM was any less natural than MF, or group/adult[only] was to be anything other than sheer ecstasy and our Goddess given right, so mote it be! ;)

[ghytifrdnr]

:cool: Dear Bi Di:
I too am a practicing Celtic/Druid, now loosely defined as Pagan, and sometimes Wiccan. In the true form, as I am a lineage "Cailleach D'Eyre" we, all of us were Polyamorous, male/female regardless. Of course after the Catholics took over Ireland/Scotland; The Highlands and depicted "us" as devil worshippers[hah, can't worship that which has no name nor place]we retreated and lived in secrecy, and our mainstay-love, sex, pleasure, and celebration of these acts/Maypole etc. were hidden. The 60's [an era I was born into]allowed for some of the old ways to be talked about by grandmothers etc./ and these stories were carelessly slid into our "Christian/Americanized lifestyles" .As time progresses the Goddess will have her "children" back as her "Witches" slowly teach the humans that they are not born evil and with sin, and they do not have to repent or spend an eternity in "Christian Hell", and that we were made out of pure pleasure and love, AND THROUGH SEX! IN ALL ITS WONDERFUL, PASSIONATE GLORY! The truth is that most men are bisexual, but are socialized into hiding it, but most have had atleast one experience is my "experience" . Ask them in a non-disclosing way, and they'll admit it. I am raising my children to respect the Celtic/Gaelic traditions,we believe we are all one, and no-one better, or less, and in the Celts way of life, the women were as equals, thereby leaving less of a strain on the male population to feel as though MM was any less natural than MF, or group/adult[only] was to be anything other than sheer ecstasy and our Goddess given right, so mote it be! ;)

Wonderfully told!! How wonderful life could be if more thought this way. :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[SpaZZ]

I feel compassion for them but again I see this as living a lie and partialy their own fault that they aren't out to their spouse/partner, and frankly I'm sick and tired of playing therapist/Dr. Phil for closeted men who won't take me or my advice seriously.


I just wanted to add to this in that although you may have given these men advice with the best of intentions (I'm not sure what advice you're talking about, however) the same advice isn't necessarily the best for every person.

As for "living a lie" as it were, I kinda resent that kind of rhetoric. I don't feel it necessary that everyone should feel the need to share their sexual anything with anyone they don't want to. If you want to advertise to the world that you're gay/bi, that's YOUR prerogative.

Personally, I never felt that way about it. Announcing one's sexuality isn't mandatory in society whether you're gay, bi, asexual or australian :cool: (Oi, oi, oi!). Sexuality is a personal thing that people share with whom they choose. Need to know. I have several friends and one relative who knows I'm bi, but really, I don't think telling my 80 year-old parents or my siblings will help my life or theirs. I've never gone out of my way to ask them about their sex life. Why? BECAUSE IT'S NONE OF MY BUSINESS! I'm a gentleman and I have some decorum. In the same breath, I have defended gay rights when the subject came up, especially gay marriage.

Does this really make me a chickenshit? Oh, well! I guess I'll stick to just telling those people who really matter... the ones I want to have sex with. They are, after all, the ones who really need to know. If I'm honest with myself and them, :three: that's all that matters.

PS The Supreme Court of Canada ruled in its latest attempt to set guidelines that govern sexual morality in Canada, the top court said two swingers clubs in Montreal were not operating as illegal "bawdy houses," because what went on there did not cause any harm to society. This is good across the country. Sooooooo, this means that if the cops want to get inside a sauna, they better be sure there's at least a pound of heroin in the place or flip for the sawbuck like everybody else.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20051221.wswingers1221/BNStory/National/

[biguyinla]

Do we HAVE to look at this ugly-ass picture every freakin' day? Can't you put up a photo of someone who's attractive for a change?

[SpaZZ]

Do we HAVE to look at this ugly-ass picture every freakin' day? Can't you put up a photo of someone who's attractive for a change?

Now we know why you have limited experience and you're divorced...

Peace, out! :three:

[lastlaf44]

Lol, this article is so true to me...and voices a lot of musings I've had about "outcast communities" for a while. I'm bi, interested in body mods, an SCA fencer, a sci-fi/fantasy nerd and I play D&D with my friends. It's not like one happened before the other. Being bi and being part of an "outcast community" just evolved during high school as part of my entire self-discovery.

Sweet. :)
:female:

[Domino]

This bitch looks worse than a tranny.

[Domino]

Frankly I am sick of heaving every time I log onto this place.

[biwords]

Not sure the last two posts comport with the position of "Unofficial Community Leader" -- !!

[superyumboi]

This bitch looks worse than a tranny.

cute pic you have.

but i have a lot of "tranny" friends who put your pic to shame.

tho i do agree a little variety would be nice on the log-in page.

[Fire Lotus]

The topic of this article/thread is not "Let's flame the writer". Instead of complaining about the lack of a new article, how bout writing one yourselves?

......Oh wait, that's right, you are not an activist or have anything to contribute to the community.

[superyumboi]

The topic of this article/thread is not "Let's flame the writer". Instead of complaining about the lack of a new article, how bout writing one yourselves?

......Oh wait, that's right, you are not an activist or have anything to contribute to the community.

i pray you aren't referring to me...

[Firemax]

I'd like to say a few words about the topic at hand(and I'll try to use as few words as possible):

As a Bi man I found the article well written and informative. I also read in the article the writer's opinions as well as factual statements that can be researched by anyone if here if they put forth a little effort. Journalism(of any kind) in today's world will have a mix of facts and opinions, so members who feel the same as Purple Rose should see this and accept it. Perhaps using the term "fringe groups" instead of "outcast" might not ruffle as many feathers, but the use of the term did spark discussion, and I think that is what the writer intended.

Lastly, I'd like to say something about the Avitars used here. Some are amazing(like flexuality)and some are a little odd(the use of "Max Headroom"), but others don't seem to like the one used by the writer of the article. To them I say this: We can't all be male models and beauty queens. Accept this fact and life becomes a lot easier.

I'm stepping off my soapbox now...

[superyumboi]

i hate being falsely accused...

so to clear up any misconceptions, my first comment was aimed at Domino, not the author of the article.

secondly i expressed ever-so-slight concern about there being variety on the log-in page, which has nothing to do with the current featured article.

so whoever shoots(accidentally or on purpose) anymore goody goody remarks at me can kiss my(smooth and pretty durn cute) azz.

buh-bi!

[DiamondDog]

I just wanted to add to this in that although you may have given these men advice with the best of intentions (I'm not sure what advice you're talking about, however) the same advice isn't necessarily the best for every person.

As for "living a lie" as it were, I kinda resent that kind of rhetoric. I don't feel it necessary that everyone should feel the need to share their sexual anything with anyone they don't want to. If you want to advertise to the world that you're gay/bi, that's YOUR prerogative.

Personally, I never felt that way about it. Announcing one's sexuality isn't mandatory in society whether you're gay, bi, asexual or australian :cool: (Oi, oi, oi!). Sexuality is a personal thing that people share with whom they choose. Need to know. I have several friends and one relative who knows I'm bi, but really, I don't think telling my 80 year-old parents or my siblings will help my life or theirs. I've never gone out of my way to ask them about their sex life. Why? BECAUSE IT'S NONE OF MY BUSINESS! I'm a gentleman and I have some decorum. In the same breath, I have defended gay rights when the subject came up, especially gay marriage.

Does this really make me a chickenshit? Oh, well! I guess I'll stick to just telling those people who really matter... the ones I want to have sex with. They are, after all, the ones who really need to know. If I'm honest with myself and them, :three: that's all that matters.

PS The Supreme Court of Canada ruled in its latest attempt to set guidelines that govern sexual morality in Canada, the top court said two swingers clubs in Montreal were not operating as illegal "bawdy houses," because what went on there did not cause any harm to society. This is good across the country. Sooooooo, this means that if the cops want to get inside a sauna, they better be sure there's at least a pound of heroin in the place or flip for the sawbuck like everybody else.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20051221.wswingers1221/BNStory/National/


Coming out isn't telling the world about your sex life or your sexuality. I know old people think it is but it's seriously not about that at all. Also the men I was refering to are married and don't even think of themselves as being bisexual or queer even though it's obvious to everyone but themselves that they are.

Coming out is more like being open and telling your family/friends and your spouse if you have one about a small aspect of yourself. Or not being afraid to be yourself when questioned about your sexuality, or when you're assumed heterosexual by default.

Obviously you didn't read my post that well. :cool:

[Fire Lotus]

i hate being falsely accused...

so to clear up any misconceptions, my first comment was aimed at Domino, not the author of the article.

secondly i expressed ever-so-slight concern about there being variety on the log-in page, which has nothing to do with the current featured article.

so whoever shoots(accidentally or on purpose) anymore goody goody remarks at me can kiss my(smooth and pretty durn cute) azz.

buh-bi!

The remarks I made were made to someone else. Primarily to Domino.

[Karliee]

You are somewhat right. I , for example, am Wiccan AND Bisexual. =D

[SpaZZ]

Obviously you didn't read my post that well. :cool:

I read it right. Maybe you wrote it wrong?

[triandtry]

well to tell you the truth im bi-male and just finding out that i really am bi- well i guess im more bi-curious dont know what it takes to be bi- had only one experience with one guy so far!!!! my wife has used a strap-on me several times and she says yes your bi- but, in a nutshell it has always been the mans role to be masculine and strong to see a man on all fours getting banged by another man shows submission and me being a man just cant fatom the idea.Until recently if you would have asked me about it before now i would have been discussed by the idea of it but to see 2 women bi- or lesbian it is very sensual to see 2 smooth bodies caressing each other now thats is exceptible, ask yourself as the average person how claims to be st8 if they would rather see 2 sexy women or 2 hairy guys go at it and what do you think they would say?
In truth we are bi- some just prefer one over the other. God gave us the tools to use sexually he made man and woman when he cast us out well he opened the doors wide open so i think sex isnt what our forefathers thought of it as being husband and wife and even then we dont really know what went on the ones that was preaaching that was or at least had thoughts of it. just my thoughts on it. I say if it feels good and noone gets hurt then why not//

[Tx46M]

Hair (pubic) or not? I prefer not for 2 reasons. One, I like the sensation I get from it without and two I love it my partner invested the time and sensuality to make it so. Comments?

[seawind0721]

Frankly I am sick of heaving every time I log onto this place.

So why do you continue to log on? :bigrin:

[jedinudist]

Well, I'm a bi male pagan, but I sure as hell don't know any others. I know oodles of bi pagan women, though.

I'm a bi male pagan :D

[jedinudist]

Frankly I am sick of heaving every time I log onto this place.


Funny, some might say something similar when referring to having to read the posts of someone who has nothing nice to say.

If logging into Bisexual.com makes you heave, by all means, please refrain from logging in :)

To express agreement or disagreement with what the writer has written would be a fundamental part of the forum feature, and would likely be welcome by many here.

To simply attack someone based solely on their looks reflects a shallow, self-centered, and ignorant mind.

Please feel free to read the Posting Rules that are displayed above the text window one types in every single time one prepares a post. To make it easier on you, I'll list the rule the seems most pertinent to you:

2. Be polite - flame the idea if you feel you must, but not the person.

[chitown_guy]

I particularly noticed that with Satanists, a lot of them, including men, are bi.

I'm sort of bi. I will never think about a relationship with a guy (for me they're just for fun :bigrin: ).

I'd like to point out that saying that only christians are traditionals and conservatives is wrong. I am an egyptian recon (not to be confused with egyptian neo-pagan as recons practice the true egyptian religion not the wicca with egyptian gods) so i am not a pagan in that sense of the word. I am also very conservative as the egyptians were.

The fundamental difference between recons and neo-pagans is that recons are generally a lot better educated, and are much more conservative. There is quite a bit of resentment between the two groups recons agree that wiccans give polytheists a bad name a word for them is "fluffy bunnies" reffering to how theyre so open minded they believe in fairies and the most outlandish things while wiccans call recons "elitists". Anyway to generalize that about conservatives is not correct at all.

Also I consider christians to be far from traditional. Personally i respect (by respect i mean:consider them to be true though alternate paths) only the religions who are traditional. The religions without men founders who were there since the beggining of time contrary to human invented religions like christianity. So christians are not very traditional.

[SpaZZ]

I'm a deist. Sex is spiritual. Timeless. All you need is Love.

SpaZZ
Reverend, ULC

[Kittengirl]

I could only stand to read portions of your diatribe, as it was so misinformed, it was not worthy of the time.

Wiccans are NOT Pagans, to begin with. Wiccans are a breed of new age paganism that greatly loses a lot of traditional, Celtic witchcraft (kind of like "pagan lite". DO NOT consider your experience at a, what did you call it - WICCAN CHURCH (no such term, btw, witches gather together in covens), the same as a Kent, Celtic or Druid Pagan. *sigh*

Regardless, what is a "witchlet"? What kind of an ignorant slur is that? Are you a white trashlette? It's kind of the same thing to say... Dig?

Lastly, Pagans, Witches or Wiccans, do not consider themselve "outcasts". It is small minds like your own that tries to label us as such. I am out with my religion, and do not consider myself part of some sub-culture. Alternative and not mainstream for sure, but certainly not an outcast. lol

My dear, I shall pray to the Goddess for you. You are in need of some serious education and enlightenment for sure! :)

Bright blessings...

[Opalsfire]

From Kitten girl
Wiccans are NOT Pagans, to begin with.
Regardless, what is a "witchlet"? What kind of an ignorant slur is that? Are you a white trashlette? It's kind of the same thing to say... Dig?
Lastly, Pagans, Witches or Wiccans, do not consider themselve "outcasts". It is small minds like your own that tries to label us as such. I am out with my religion, and do not consider myself part of some sub-culture.
My dear, I shall pray to the Goddess for you. You are in need of some serious education and enlightenment for sure! :)
Bright blessings...[/QUOTE]

Pagan is a blanket term for a person who follows a path that is not considered one of the "major" world religions, i.e. Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Shintoism, Islam, Confucianism, Buddhism, etc.

White trashlet? Wow talk about a slur. A witchlet is a term for a new witch, a baby witch so to say some one early in their learning. It is an affectionate term really.

She was not saying that we all think we are outcasts, but society at large views us in this way, you are not a member of the greater society at large, well than you are an outcast. A subdefective.

I don't mean to get down on you but maybe you need to ask your Goddess for some common sense and not to be so critical of other people. Just because you do not agree does not make them wrong and you right, it just means you have a difference of opinion.

I personally see what she is saying, I was bi first but I am a homeschooling, pagan, former SCA fighter, who is Kinky, and still games.

:bigrin:

[biguyinla]

Can you PLEASE remove that photo of the ugly guy in drag off the front page of bi.com? Do we have to get completely turned off every time we log on?

[Sex in Words]

My name is Jon, I am the Features Article Editor here on bisexual.com. I should have done this much sooner, when your first insensitive and ridiculous comment was placed.
Shut up!
You don't find Dana attractive. Good for you. We don't care. I don't find you attractive because you are a rude and stupid person.
Dana wrote a great article that I was very pleased to present for the members of this website. And judging by how much conversation it has spawned (excepting your trash), it has been well-received!
So just go away. Your negative presence is not respected or desired. And if I see one more comment like this, I will have you banned.


Can you PLEASE remove that photo of the ugly guy in drag off the front page of bi.com? Do we have to get completely turned off every time we log on?

[Fire Lotus]

My name is Jon, I am the Features Article Editor here on bisexual.com. I should have done this much sooner, when your first insensitive and ridiculous comment was placed.
Shut up!
You don't find Dana attractive. Good for you. We don't care. I don't find you attractive because you are a rude and stupid person.
Dana wrote a great article that I was very pleased to present for the members of this website. And judging by how much conversation it has spawned (excepting your trash), it has been well-received!
So just go away. Your negative presence is not respected or desired. And if I see one more comment like this, I will have you banned.

BRAVO!!

[Long Duck Dong]

go jon...lol

I have sat here and read many of the remarks about wicca.... and as a older timer ( 20 years + as a wiccan person ) I have finally decided to speak up about the wicca fighting going on in the article thread

ok wicca is not set in concrete.... its fuild, hence it takes many forms....
a wiccan church is not wrong.... in the same manner that a spiritual christian church is not wrong.....its just that people perceive it as wrong

the original wicca folk, never went to a coven,... coven is a witchcraft term....
modern wicca embraces the coven aspect in some places.....not all modern wicca groups do....
modern wicca groups are mainly Gardnerian Wicca ( 1950s onwards ) or gardnerian wicca ( 1960s onwards ) or the dianic wicca.... thats when the coven aspect become more popular than at any other time in the history of witchcraft and wicca....tho in some areas witch covens did exist for 100's of years
christianity blurred the lines between wicca and witchcraft.... to destroy them both....but wicca is not mentioned in the bible.....its referred to as witchcraft

modern wicca and witchcraft is far removed from the original wicca which was nature based and honoured the * gods * and * goddesses * of which there was over 130... hence rituals and ceremonies were not done as they would take so long to do,

now with olde wicca... the gods and goddesses were not viewed as higher beings.... they were viewed as teachers and guides that helped with life,
the celtic god and goddesses system, is the closest system to the wicca system

most olde wiccan folk were eclectic ( they walked alone ) hence there were not covens....and things like herbology, aromatherapy, natural healing etc etc are a big part of olde wicca..... things like spells etc, are modern wicca and witchcraft based

the term * witchlet * is a modern term....not a olde term.... witchcraft and wicca are seperate....
the term * warlock * is a witchcraft term and means * oathbreaker, liar or / and exile / outcast *... it was not a wiccan term...

the olde wicca folk are outcasts..... we don't go for the modern wiccan stuff and we avoid it like the plaque....... the modern wicca movement doesn't accept or embrace the olde ways....as it makes most of the modern ways, look like a laughable joke with all their rituals and ceremonies....
in the olde times... there was not time for rituals and ceremonies....and a interesting thing to note... the olde day started as dusk and ran til dusk the next day.....there was no midnight to herald the start of the day..... something that a lot of history books refer to as the basis for many of the stories about witchcraft....

druidism is actually the masculine aspect of olde wicca....lol.... as wicca is predominately feminine...and was for many, many years, until the structure was changed to put males in control lol


I come from a long and rich family history of olde wiccans...and its nearly impossible to find any info online or in books about olde wicca, as its handed down from person to person....( anybody that knows the history of scotland, will know that many of the books and scrolls and records were destroyed by the english )... I was taught by my grandmother and great grand mother....and i have in my possession, books and other bits and pieces that talk about olde wicca......

hence I don't fight over my wicca beliefs... regardless of what people say..... its a bit hard to argue against the written proof sitting on a book shelf.....
proof that in some cases, was written in the 1800's.....
and like I said, wicca is fuild, it is adaptable and changable and so many of the wiccan sites on the net and the books are written from personal opinion and ideas.....if people want witchlets and wiccan churchs.... so mote it be

[Kittengirl]

Bottom line, "Wicca" is neopaganism, founded in the 1950's from Edward Gardner so by religious terms, still a VERY new religion. Though it is a structured religion, to use the name interchangeably with Witchcraft would be a mistruth. Wicca does not follow nor ascribe to many of the teachings of Celtic Witchcraft. To a true Pagan, it lacks much of the traditions that define the religion. Again, I won't bother to refute others comments here, as it does appear petty to argue their lack of knowledge and inaccuracies, but suffice to say that "wicca" and all its trappings, can only be defined as "Pagan lite". Certainly bearing of its own merit, as say, Scientology is to those who believe in it. We are chose our own path...

[Long Duck Dong]

hence I don't argue with people lol but, you make one big mistake...
gerald gardener was the creator of modern wicca, NOT edward gardener

the writings of aleister crowley form the basis of much of modern wicca....aleister wrote the book * high magics aid * in 1946.... much of which would feature later on in modern wicca
aleister crowley is better known as the founder of the church of satan

gerald gardener was taught the foundations of what was to become modern wicca, when he joined a witchcraft coven in 1939 under aleister crowley

in 1951 gardener started his own coven....in 1954 he wrote the book * witchcraft today * and in 1959, wrote * the meaning of witchcraft *

gardnerian wicca has direct roots to the masonic movement, druidism, witchcraft, shamanism and other pagan factions....possibly including satanism

[Kittengirl]

*yawn*

I stand corrected. ;) (Shall I say "you win"? because I suspect that is what you are seeking, and rather than have to discuss this one more moment, are you happy if I just say "uncle"?) LMAO.

Honestly, I can't keep track of all of the new age wiccan things you folks are into and who founded what within the last 80 years. It's like keeping up with Britney Spears and K-whatever. Tedious, mindless, and completely without merit or substance. :)

Perhaps now you will allow this thread to return to the point of the message - though I strongly doubt it - lol. ;)

[Brian]

Biguyinla,

What Jon said. You are not welcome here anymore.

- Drew :paw:

[wanderingrichard]

The topic of this article/thread is not "Let's flame the writer". Instead of complaining about the lack of a new article, how bout writing one yourselves?

......Oh wait, that's right, you are not an activist or have anything to contribute to the community.

excuse you?? just because many of us are not "activists" does not mean we have nothing to contribute to the community.. matter of fact i take offense at this because your elitist attitude is exactly why there are so many divisions in our relationships with the rest of the non hetero world.

[bearisbare]

In reference to:
"The topic of this article/thread is not "Let's flame the writer". Instead of complaining about the lack of a new article, how bout writing one yourselves?

......Oh wait, that's right, you are not an activist or have anything to contribute to the community."


excuse you?? just because many of us are not "activists" does not mean we have nothing to contribute to the community.. matter of fact i take offense at this because your elitist attitude is exactly why there are so many divisions in our relationships with the rest of the non hetero world.

The context of the comment referenced above had nothing to do with elitism and everything to do with a comment from someone who had nothing to say about the article and everything about the appearance of the writer.

There are thousands of us who use various parts of this site who contribute to its whole. Every bit, whether large or small, contributes to the strength of the overall community, not only this online one, but other bisexual communities as well.

[rissababynta]

My husband and I are both pagans and both bi and we know a LOT of pagans, male and female. Every one of our pagan friends is bisexual except one male and one female, but they have even admitted that they are willing to experiment some day.


Then, we know a bunch of "outcasts" who are not really bisexual yet they like to tell people they are for attention...

[vertigo_balance]

ive had a few realtionships that never lasted 2 were striaght one was gay.
the gay one one upset me more than most
im not into one night stands or anything
just hoping to meet men /women who are interested in simlar things to me ie art , poetry wildlife and lots of other things besides
thanks

It has taken me 20 years to find a happy relationship with both a man and a woman, it made me chuckle that I found them in exactly the space that the author of this article is speaking of an SCA(like) group, pagan individuals. I was bi before I joined these groups but one of the things that made me _stay_ with these groups where I dropped many of the other groups I was in over time was the accepting people. One of the things that I note is the fact that it has taken a great amount of work to make this threesome work!
:bibounce:

[ohbimale]

I think the article was well written and thought out. However I would like to point out that personally I have been a bisexual male since I was a teenager and a Witch since I was in my mid twenties. I have to agree there are not as many openly bisexual or gay men as women in the Pagan community. I do wish there more. It would nice to just know some other male bisexual Pagans/Wiccans/Witches socially. :flag2: :male: :male:

[Zeston]

I actually discovered I was bisexual by joining "outcast" groups. :2cents:

My first religion was Wicca (none of my folks were particularly religious), but what really opened my eyes to who I am was the Church of the SubGenius (a religion disguised as a joke disguised as a religion).

Their philosophy pretty much is "Be yourself and fuck'em all if they don't like it." or to quote "Bob": "Fuck Them If They Can't Take A Joke." :cool:

Oh, and hi everybody. :) :tongue:

[curiouskitten]

I completely agree with your entire article. And yes I am Pagan as well. :bigrin:

[bearded.algolagniac]

As a straight guy interested in exploring my potential bisexuality within the BDSM scene, I have to say I often feel uncomfortable with the idea of expressing this to my other kinky male friends (let alone kinky male play partners). I sense a fair amount of male-homophobia somehow. I can't say why or how or where it's coming from. I just feel it in the air.

It's interesting because the women I know from the scene are HIGHLY encouraging of guys being bi. Yet still it somehow feels as though declaring myself as bisexual might change the nature of some of my relationships-- you'd think it wouldn't given the expected open-mindedness of such an alternative community as that of people who tie, beat, and bleed each other for pleasure.

I understand that maybe I'll be surprised if I actually take the step of being open about this aspect of myself. Or that there may well be many bi guys in the BDSM world who have felt differently about the attitudes of other guys towards their bisexuality. I'd welcome hearing from bi guys about just these types of experiences.

One thing I will say about the BDSM world is it really does make you feel comfortable opening yourself up to new things for the most part. People are so crazy kinky and weird in it that it's just like there's always someone who is sufficienlty weirder than you in category X that it makes you feel comfortable, if not boring, by comparison. Love it!

Thanks for reading!

[starboy]

Relegion, preacher's daughter or son are of a horny sort,but us at belive in nature are on to path--true path to joy.

[crazy owl]

Well...Well...Well. There is one organization of gay men not mentioned here: the Radical Faeries: an anarchistic dis-organization with no rules and no bosses (M or F) very similar to the Rainbow Family. Both are a real mix of folks. The Rainbow may have begun as ST8 but now is a polyglot mix.
The Radical Faeries began as Gay Male but now is a polyglot mix including a few Hermaphrodites even.
When two herms get together are they Bi?
About: male bisexuality....Many years age I got into body language and the psychotherapy of it. Read: Julius Fast's book BODY LANGUAGE (published around 1965 or 70) Chapter 7 is about sexual body language. Then I started looking ,cruising men in public and ordinary places. Lots of sexual body language!!!! But no takers for sex!!!!! I got wise fast and gave up on it. However for two years I tried offering sexual body language to every man I met. Some responded immediately. If they didn't respond immediately I did it the second time and they almost all responded. Except one: he responded the third time!. No Sex ever because they all were ST8 or so they told me. Then I quit the experiment because I got bored.
But my conclusion is that all men are Bi in the body but many have their mind-brain-set disconnected from their bodies desires.
Homophobia is an epidemic in US among men. Women are not so homophobic as men. "Cocksucker!" used to be a curseword used by men about men and was applied to men ONLY. Has any woman ever cursed another woman as "Clitlicker!" -???? How about other oldtimey curses used by men about men "Up your ass!" "Up your ass with a meat-hook!" (My, how our language has changed in 20 years!!!!!) But the childhood learning-teaching process still produces Homophobia. We still, many of us, have to get ourselves, individualy, out of these closets.
Ah--Buddha! We live in a world of Illusion.
Or To quote Pogo the possum (Walt Kelly's cartoon creation)...."We have met the enemy, and he is us."
Last comment: In 1967 all States in US had laws against male homosexuality. None had laws against lesbianism except Texas!
Crazy Owl...

[DiamondDog]

In reference to:
"The topic of this article/thread is not "Let's flame the writer". Instead of complaining about the lack of a new article, how bout writing one yourselves?

......Oh wait, that's right, you are not an activist or have anything to contribute to the community."



The context of the comment referenced above had nothing to do with elitism and everything to do with a comment from someone who had nothing to say about the article and everything about the appearance of the writer.

There are thousands of us who use various parts of this site who contribute to its whole. Every bit, whether large or small, contributes to the strength of the overall community, not only this online one, but other bisexual communities as well.

If you're out and such an activist why don't you even have a picture of yourself on here?

Sexual politics and bisexual politics are so outdated and 1990s anyway.

[bearisbare]

If you're out and such an activist why don't you even have a picture of yourself on here?

Sexual politics and bisexual politics are so outdated and 1990s anyway.

I'm puzzled here. I wrote something back on April 28th that commented on a reply to something I did not originally write, and in my reply I stated "There are thousands of us who use various parts of this site who contribute to its whole. Every bit, whether large or small, contributes to the strength of the overall community, not only this online one, but other bisexual communities as well."

That was something I wrote that was in support of everyone and something I thought was positive. I wasn't pushing any sort of political thought there -- I was simply stating my support for this site and all it does for those who visit it.

As for why I don't have a picture here, since it's not mandatory, and I do not have an ad, I didn't feel I needed one. I visit this site to read forums, articles and check out some links I didn't know about anywhere else, but I decided long ago that I didn't want to post a personal.

[like being fucked]

First off, I"m gonna change a trend! Are you All ready, because your gonna get pissed!
The truth about bisexuality is coming to truth. It has ,more essence then a church. Fuck, nature itself confirms it. But I bet you fools don't know that. and you call yourself bisexual? Bisexual to what? Human? a rock has more sense. Do you know your symbol, or colors? No, of course not! Your a fool! igorene destorys and you know this, yet you apply it to your life. Insted of being wise as you think! The Bisexual symbol is to over laying upside down triangles, colors Blue and pink Purple in the middle is that beyond you?
The Gays know who they are and there kind,You know nothing. Your living off the fat of the land, Pleasure. A spin off from gays, Wrong! Wake up! You are of a creed of kingship. A nature of knowing. Is this why you question everything. Wake up, you fools! and I know! you hate being called a fool!, So see the truth. For Bisexuality is far more then a dick in your hand or a pussy against yours. Its your way. Nature left this for the leadership. Is this why your resected? See if I'm lieing, look in history and you'll see the greatest leaders were bi, not gay. Wake up! Because of bisexual is intelligents, there decreeet., cool!, Power is in unity, thats cool too! Where is unity in igorence?>Your power is in decrection!:bipride:

[yosoymaricon]

that is so true in the pagan religion we believe that there is nothing wrong with m/m/f/f/m/f or evve m/f/m its just they think that it will corupt thier perfect lil world so more power to you :flag2:

[Thesis-1]

Limited Debates: Gender Roles in Western Society



Firstly, denoting previous arguments in respect to the bisexuality and pagan ideology as a sociological debate, whereby concluding gender, and gender roles in a given society or culture. Society defines the normative behavior between gender, and gender roles, thus including sexuality, whereby labeling bi-sexuality as ante social behavior. Secondly, arguing pagan, religion into the dialogue of bisexuality behavior is not conclusive in the prior debates; should be more refined or broad in its scope. Notwithstanding, history which has stood the test of time, in this scope bi sexuality was a normative behavior in many cultures. However, in today’s society bisexuality, construed as ante social behavior, hence labeling, and deviance. In sum, it is a very controversial debate, and worthy of deliberation, in Western culture.

Thesis-1
Note: A very limited topic proposal, thus the scope should be more broad or refined

[spydox]

I look at life statistically. I find it curious that with over 3,000 world religions, the vast majority of religious folk choose the SAME RELIGION as their parents. In other words, they did no personal exploration of what may be the most important choice of their lives. They also choose the same sexuality - or at more like deny their own sexuality because of parent's on denial of theirs.

:bipride:

I've been many religions. Just like most of us need a few mates or a few cars to choose what's best for us; gaining a broad understand helps make an informed choice. Yet, again, most religious people are the SAME religion they chose (that was chose FOR THEM) at 9 or 10 when they were baptised. They gave more thought into selecting their pet's hair colour than their religion.

After exploring options, Wicca was the obvious choice for me. Had I stuck with the religion chosen for me by my parents I would still be frustrated with the control and narrow-minded leadership where its OK to molest children, but not OK to choose your own adult partner.

I was shocked when the Church Leader made the public statement (paraphrased) "It's NOT ACCEPTABLE to MOLEST CHILDREN".. Gee now THERE is a REVELATION! Their faithful had to be TOLD THAT?? I think I want a religion where the members can think for themselves, and don't have to be told things like this before they believe them?

Afterall The Goddess DID give us a brain- I presume she wanted us to USE IT?

[Bi_Druid]

Interesting article.

I have a little nag, as such, about being labelled part of an "outcast" group, being Pagan myself, and being a friend of Role-Players, Pagans, Goths, Metal-Heads, etc. I understand why you used this term of 'outcast', but I don't strictly agree with it. Perhaps 'niche' would have been a more agreeable one, or some such.

Also, I class myself as always having been Pagan, in it's broadest use of the term. And I class myself as having always been Bi, just that I never realized this until later in life (although my parents always 'knew', even before I did, in that divine way parent always do). I have never seen the two as intrinsically entwined as your article appears to suggest.
I am just me, and always was, and shall always be so.
I appreciate that we are now living in a more accepting world than, say, a mere generation or two ago, and I consider myself and my generation greatly fortunate for such.

But as regards being Pagan and Bi as having to go hand in hand, is a bit off. Many of my pagan friends are happily and confirmedly straight, and a few gay/lesbian. In fact, I'm the ONLY Bi-identified pagan I personally know of. If anything, I was the quirky odd one out amongst the group.:tongue: Much goes the same for many of the Goths, Grungers, Role Players, Metal-Heads, etc who I have made acquaintance with have all proved, in their own ways, although still open-minded and accepting, have predominated with Mono-sexuals (Straights or Gay/lesbians).

If only what your article seems to suggest was as true this side of the pond.:(

The only truly Bi people I've come across other than my self in actual life (i.e, out side of the Internet aether) are much like me, identifying themselves as individuals; happily befriending with anyone who's a decent person, regardless of their personal kinks or niches. Be they whatever faith or ideology or taste or fashion sense or whatever, has proved somewhat regardless of us wanting to know the person for who s/he are inside. The rest is but technicalities.

[csrakate]

The author of this horrible excuse for "writing" is ugly as hell and I'd rather look at a pile of dog shit.

Got a mirror handy?

[jamieknyc]

Got a mirror handy?

Bad girl, feeding the troll! I will have to give you a spanking. :tongue:

[rissababynta]

Got a mirror handy?

oh, you're a quick one lmao!

[vittoria]

Got a mirror handy?

I'm Pleased! :impleased

[TheBrat74]

*yawn*

I stand corrected. ;) (Shall I say "you win"? because I suspect that is what you are seeking, and rather than have to discuss this one more moment, are you happy if I just say "uncle"?) LMAO.

Honestly, I can't keep track of all of the new age wiccan things you folks are into and who founded what within the last 80 years. It's like keeping up with Britney Spears and K-whatever. Tedious, mindless, and completely without merit or substance. :)

Perhaps now you will allow this thread to return to the point of the message - though I strongly doubt it - lol. ;)

Please be respectful of other religions even if you dont agree with them. Please keep in mind that ALL religions started off at the beginning and were new or young at one point. it doesnt make them ANY less valid.

I am Wiccan. I am a witch. I think you will find most wiccans are witches, but NOT all witches are wiccans.

there are some wiccans who are very new agy, and others who are deeply devoted and serious about their beliefs, crafts and practice.

Just to note: I am NOT Gardenarian-I am an eclectic solitary wiccan. And a pagan is defined as someone who does not follow the major religions. its original meaning was country dweller.

[TheBrat74]

i am a bi pagan woman and my husband is a bi pagan man and i took offense to alot of the things in your article and it is my oppinion that you absolutely do not know what you are talking about when it comes to wicca. i have never felt like an "outcast" and do not appreciate being categorised by you or stereotyped and i don't think anyone i know would appreciate it either. i was raised christian, but i knew from an early age that conventional religion is not all there is and is not the whole truth. i think it is completely ignorant for anyone in any religion to judge anyone else because of their beliefs or sexual orientation. the reason there are so many diverse "outcasts" in wicca is because we are a nature based religion that accepts everyone for who they are and we do not judge any one for sexual preference or personal beliefs, unlike other religions that judge you if you don't believe what they want you to or what they think you should. the Bible says we all have free will and if practicing the one basic power that everyone possesses makes one an "outcast", then i feel sorry for those who don't and to me they are the real outcasts. we are entitled to our oppinions and beliefs, but ifeel if you are going to speak about a particular group of people or about a particular subject that you should atleast be educated enough on the topic to give a well informed oppinion and not just ignorant uninformed oppinions!

Just so you know, not all Wiccans or Witches for that matter are accepting and open minded. There are close minded people in EVERY religion.

[mohrade]

i was raised in the church of christ and knew from a young age that i like both boys and girls, mentally, physically and spiritually. it wasnt until i was a late teen that i began to explore pagan and spiritualist communities, maybe i was lucky in the fact that i was accepted by the church i was raised in, as well as pagan community, maybe it was because of my utter acceptance of the idea that this is who i am , take me or leave me, either way ill survive. i have noticed, more recently, that younger girls are claiming bisexuality, but seem to be just playing around, because they are taught that it is cool. that in itself could me dangerous simply because of how impressionable these girls are and how manipulative some young men are, not wanting a girl unless they will be with another girl in the attempt to achieve the alleged ultimate fantasy.

[PhoenixRising35]

My own version of chicken vs. egg...

I was never a member of any of these "outcast" groups until after I identified as bisexual. I sought them out as a place to find dates once I realized I would like to date both men and women.

I am trying, but can not for the life of me, think of the reason I knew I would find other bisexuals there. I certainly was not thinking "these groups are open minded". It was a more primal, selfish reason for seeking the groups out. I was like the proverbial frat boy going to a party to pick up on chicks.

I would like to think I was more cerebral. I wish it was me "challenging the monotheistic ideal of North American Judeo-Christian notions of right and wrong". But in all honesty I just wanted to get some, and went to these groups to find it.

So, for me, bisexuality came first. Then kinky polyamorus role playing Wicca sci-fi in the SCA came second. :bigrin:

I really like how you finished off this post. I did do role-playing, sci-fi/ fantasy long before I even could understand my sexuality and now I just like to say that since I have broken many taboos already, why not just see how far down the rabbit hole goes. :three: Also, I know that in my search for acceptance, one of the best places that I found (barring some people who took my inventory one too many times) was the Wiccan community. Myself, I tend to believe in a more shamanistic belief, but my prayers and energy in sending to Hecate and Dionysus help me on a daily basis as well to keep my mind open to all branches of spirituality. Still, I find close-mindedness in society wherever reprehensible since it takes the judgment out of a Higher Power's hands and gives it to limited human intelligence. I don't say this to anyone here, obviously, but when people judge others it makes me very irritated to say the least.

I also appreciate the OP for putting together a very good post and am glad that I am a part of this community (found through a yahoo group) because it helps me to find affirmation with people like me (or even slightly different) to keep accepting myself no matter what my choices for partners or bedroom habits are. Hugs for taking the time to post this and share your views with us.

[AlannahBabalon156]

hence I don't argue with people lol but, you make one big mistake...
gerald gardener was the creator of modern wicca, NOT edward gardener

the writings of aleister crowley form the basis of much of modern wicca....aleister wrote the book * high magics aid * in 1946.... much of which would feature later on in modern wicca
aleister crowley is better known as the founder of the church of satan

gerald gardener was taught the foundations of what was to become modern wicca, when he joined a witchcraft coven in 1939 under aleister crowley

in 1951 gardener started his own coven....in 1954 he wrote the book * witchcraft today * and in 1959, wrote * the meaning of witchcraft *

gardnerian wicca has direct roots to the masonic movement, druidism, witchcraft, shamanism and other pagan factions....possibly including satanism

Just want to correct a few things here if I may Long Duck Dong, hope you dont mind:)

Crowley didn't write High Magicks Aid, that was Gerald Gardner.

Anton Lavey was the founder of the Church of Satan (1967) not Crowley.

Gardner didn't join Crowley's witchcraft coven (Crowley wasn't a witch, he was a ceremonial magickian), although Gardner was a short term member of the O.T.O

Forgive my pedanticism (not being rude just straightening a few things out here:)), Im a magickian myself and a member of the OTO hence Im acquainted with Crowley and the history of the occult.

[cuninglingwist]

All you so called know it all wiccans and pagans need to study history,

pagans were mainly farmers who worshiped fertility the four seasons and nature and its gods and godesses.
Bisexuality among pagan women was natual and normal, when the men were gone for weeks or months it was normal to give each other (sexual) comfort.
if a husband was killed and never came back she and her kids were taken in as a second wife where the kids became his kids.

the wiccan was a spiritual leader but also the worlds first phamasist with herbal remidies past down from generations, and they knew the art of fixing broken limbs.

It was the jelousy of christian religion that turned against the wiccan and pagans as more people started to attend wiccan gatherings and taking herbs that cured, the christians only offered prayer, no preyers were ever answered, people died in agony and disese, and the church lost its flock and its money.
It was the evil cathlic church that invented the words "witches" incest, evil, SIN, the devil, evil spells, magic,heratic, infidel, the none believers, the church blamed them for every bad thing they couldent explain and burnt thousands of wiccan/pagans alive thoughout england and europe, this fear brought most back to the church with their money.

todays moden witches, goths, with their dark spells and wichcraft is money generating bullshit, its everything the wiccans and pagans were not, but more what the Evil cathlic church wanted and portrade pagans and wiccans to be.

modern day witches are evil Cathlics looking for your money through fear..But the cathlic church has always been about forced religion through fear, where procreation and sex is SIN..

[boca.openminded]

let me start by saying I did not read the full article nor all of the posts.. Honestly, it was all too long...lol

but, I do have a comment on Pagan Bisexuals. The first pagan person I met was actually a bisexual. She is the reason why today I am very open minded or bi curious (whatever label you want to put on it). We dated for a few years and she taught me alot of things (not all sexual). To name a few are to be more open minded, to try anything once (if I didn't like it then dont do it again but at least you try), take risks, and to explore just to name a few. The one thing that she constantly talked about is the energy that you produce is the energy that you will attract.

Pagans are very earthy / simple people. The whole religion is based on earth and its energy. They are very open minded. I do believe that being pagan you do let all of your walls down and believe in being free and nurturing.

Think about it for a minute. Without the walls in todays society how sexually free we would be. For example we constantly hear about men that do not want not wanting to explore certain sexual acts because it would construe them as being gay.

I do not know if this is off the topic or not but from the pagans I have talked to I'd say that about 80% are bi...

[rissababynta]

I do not know if this is off the topic or not but from the pagans I have talked to I'd say that about 80% are bi...


yeah, i know many many pagans and only one is straight but not disgusted by the idea or anything. I'm not surprised...us pagans are always striving for balance :tongue:

[CoupleinBama8184]

bi female pagan and the group i am in i am the only bi person there so i would have loved to have seen the group she was talking about lmao

[silberwolf1960]

bi-pagen here to. Love the freedom it gives.

[Intimate_Light]

I'm not a Pagan, but had a Pagan room-mate and past aquaintances and so I am fairly familiar with its essence. As I recall, the central tenet (or Pagan Golden Rule) goes something like this:

"Do what you will, but do no harm (onto others or yourself)."

There are those inside or outside of that tradition that ignore it fit their own biases. Because every creed or spiritual path has its extremists, and there are con artists that use anything for selfish superficial gains, i.e. kinky hype/marketing/etc.

Nuttin' new in either case.

That sexual orientation becomes prey to this isn't surprising.
Ignore the b.s. and live your own integrity.

[~POET~]

with all due respect, women don't have it "easy"...it may be easier in society for us, but once a man or woman comes to realize that it matters not what society thinks of us, we are free...it's hard for us all...where i'm from i'm considered an old maid...i'm 26 years old and i've never been married, i have no kids...they ask me why...now, take the stress of this and combine it with the stress of being pagan and bi....MUCH HARDER...

but, being bi, gothic, pagan...and happy...is something i am...i'm not "this way" because it fits the norm or the stereotype of this and that...it is who i am...

there is no place in any tradition that i've heard of that looks down on bi men or women...we are all accepted for our differences because that's what makes us work as a community...we would suck if we were all the same...coming from my POV, knowing many women and men who are pagan...the majority of us are not bi...bi-friendly perhaps...we know how it is to be lashed out at for our "satanic ways" and our "evilness"...pretty much the outlook had by homophobics...we fear things we don't understand...

all of us are individuals...we are all different...there is no where written that you have to be bi to be a pagan...you don't have to, but you're less afraid to take that particular title...you're more open to it because the fear of rejection and public denouncement...those of us who have had to live with the fear of it all know what i mean...how can something so beautiful be so wrong...

my point is...and i don't mean to ramble...just because the stereotype says so doesn't make it so...

[TJ_Atl]

Specifically, people in these outcast groups have often challenged and then rejected the monotheistic ideal of North American judeo-christian notions of right and wrong. Most of them have also rejected traditional religion. One of the strongest moralistic messages they reject is that of sex as sin.



Two things I would address in this paragraph:

1) Most who reject biblically based spirituality do not actually challenge the "ideal" as you suggest. They instead take for granted that the ideal is indeed biblically based.

They assume that because so many people say that the bible says something, that this must be what the bible says. Then they reject both the people and the bible.

The fact is that the few passages from the bible which many use to condemn homosexuality as sin, do not actually support their prejudice.

You will notice that the ones who are not just repeating things someone else has told them, but who actually try to make convincing arguments, rely heavily on non-biblical texts to support their distortions of the bible.

For example, there is a passage in 1 Corinthians where several types of sinners are listed. The original King James Version of the Bible specifies one of those as the "effeminate". The New King James Version says "homosexuals".

However, there is a footnote. The term they have now decided to translate as "homosexuals" actually refers to catamites. Catamites are boys who have sex with adult men!

The obvious challenge is, why have they translated this term as homosexual when the more obvious sinner would be pedophile? It is difficult for a Christian who is not prejudiced against GLBT people to believe that the Bible would concern itself with the personal relationships of consenting same-sex adults but have nothing to say about pedophilia.

By the way, you'll notice that there is no reference to lesbians at all. In fact, I cannot find a reference in the Old Testament that even comes close to discussing lesbianism. The passages that do seem to mention them along with gay men, are actually condemnations of "unnatural" pagan worship services that appear to have more to do with straight people, or all people.


2) Sex as sin is rarely confronted by Judeo-Christians in the secular, political realm, as they do homosexuality. One almost gets the impression that opposite-sex sin is AOK.

For example, in order to be consistent, my fellow Christians who think that they know what the term "unnatural" refers to in those infamous passages, and who want to ban marriage for same-sex couples, must also ban marriage for opposite-sex couples, if those couples participate in the same "unnatural" act that many gay men participate in. Don't they?


What I am trying to say is, as a bi-sexual man, I do not have to abandon biblical spirituality. I prefer to challenge and reject the peer pressure which leads to prejudice.

[Hazzardous]

I'm Asatru, which is a reconstructionist religion based on the religion of the ancient Norse. I'm the only one I know of that's bisexual, actually. Sadly, the religion is itself the subject of lots of prejudice from outside because of the fact that Hitler attempted (and failed) to hijack the religious symbols of the old Norse during WWII in an attempt to get the local peoples to support him. He only succeeded in making them angry, but more recently, certain neo-Nazi groups have attempted to associate themselves with the Asatru religion (much to the disgust of every Asatru I've ever met).

So, yeah...

[stroker530]

I think you'll find a lot of bisexual people in the Neo-Pagan community because at it's core, paganism honors the duality of God AND Goddess. Male and Female are very much at play as core concepts of divinity, hence, its adherents tend to be more open to exploring both the male and female sides of their sexuality.

I am a Neo-Pagan and I'm Bi. Personally, I enjoy exploring the energies of both males and females. Both are unique and VERY enjoyable!!!

Blessings.

[RAZ696]

I totaly agree that males are so beaten in with the no same sex affection thing. A friend and I had a conversation about it afew months back.
My thinking is that there's alot more bi males out there but they don't want to compromise thier lumberjack/pirate/footballer male type image , if you get what I mean.

totally agreed!

[Karasel]

Hm... Ever since I was a little girl I have been a role-player, gamer and into sci-fi. I used to be Wicca (but now Agnostic)... And I've always been bi..

This explains everything!!!

LOL.

This article is interesting, to say the least.

Fun read.

[sephirothtx]

excuse me if i didn't read all hundreds of the posts

i've been an avid online religious political debater for a while now

some background im x-christian that turned atheist, dabbled with some satanists, then confirmed my ahtiesm, atheism isn't the "beleif there is no god"
it is the lack of any beleif for the observance of the scientifically proven and the truth, atheist is literally a abbreviation for AntiTheist

Now in my studies i haven oticed one thing, anti-homosexuality bigotry is focused mainly on those "newer" religions known as the RHP or Right Hand Path religions.

This includes all forms of christianity, Judiasms, and Islam, as well as any sect of religion broken and mixed from these.

The majority of "ancient/pagan" religions either has no involvment in sexual preferences or promotes the act of homosexuality one way or another.
In other words there is no bigotry in the laws of the religion that forbids any kind of homosexual action, and in some religions getting naked and having orgy's was part of the practice of the religion and not seen as a sexual deviancy.

The oddest thing is, the original RHP religion, Greece "mythology" from which all RHP religions evolved from the most, has no outspoken preference against gay people and it is known by recordings that bisexuality was avidly practiced by the ancient greek people.

[Vallin]

In for a penny, in for a pound. We are what Dr. Helen Fisher ('Why Him, Why Her?') calls "Explorers"

[Tony Max]

Liked this and I think it's a simple matter of when you accept you are bisexual there is automatic rejection by the religions. Yet, discovering one's sexuality is a spiritual path. To retain a spiritual identity and be bisexual can only lead to occultism, the pagan way. Maybe it works the other way too?

I discovered my pagan identity about twelve years ago, well after my sexuality. It provides me with comfort and joy. My paganism leans towards Druidism.

My daughter is a Wiccan. I think women go for Wicca in a big way, more than men?

My Grandfather was Druid and it was kept secret from me. I think the family were ashamed of his values. He was pacifist and served as an ambulance officer in France in the first world war.

I don't think we are kinky. I think we are kind people getting on as best we can in a cruel world.

[Randypan]

Just so you know, not all Wiccans or Witches for that matter are accepting and open minded. There are close minded people in EVERY religion.

I am a Bi Pagan, I was raised by an atheist mother and Baptist father. I have traveled far and met many different pagan groups as well as ceremonial, chaos and satanic magi. I have found that groups who are ensconced in a particular tradition that has been around for awhile, tend to have more closed minds, Gardnarians and Dianics, as well as followers of the Golden Dawn and Kabbalah, just to name a few. I have also come across groups in which if you are not bi, you were an outcast. It seems the looser the organization, the more open minded they are.

[BiDaveDtown]

Just so you know, not all Wiccans or Witches for that matter are accepting and open minded. There are close minded people in EVERY religion.

Yup even Pagans and Wiccans can be very close minded, big into ritual and loving their dogma.

[jb32256x]

I thought about being pagan, but if I can not tolerate one god how will I ever tolerate many?:eek:

[matutum]

I agree completely that the concept of sex being sinful is just a social/religeous construct designed for control, and that rejecting that idea is the path to freedom no matter what your kink. :cool:

What happens their is no control people and their sexual habits???/How many dynasties have colapsed from bad sexual practices??? Lots..

[*pan*]

:eek: i DONT KNOW.

MABY THEY ARE ALL ALIENS :tong: