Bi Women / Bi Men: Two Bisexual Communities?

[spartca]

The recent topic "The Stigma of Marriage" really showed how different being bi can be for women and men!

For women, it's the hottest possible thing to be bi from a mainstream perspective - what straight guy wouldn't want to be married to a bi woman? It's certainly the mainstay of straight porn.

On the other hand, it can be very dangerous to be out as bisexual for many men. It's just not accepted in the mainstream, so many bisexual men make the choice to stay in the closet. I'm not saying it's right - but my experience, being out as a bisexual man may have made it difficult for me to find a partner who is willing to make a go of it and have a family together. This is why many bi guys lie. Can you blame them? Well, you can, but it's not going to change anything. Better to blame those who stigmatize bi guys - then something might actually change.

So it's no wonder that the bi women here say "Everyone else can go jump!" - they're in a position of power.

And it's no wonder bi men here say "I'm married at least for the time being but my wife doesn't support my being bi so until we get divorced I have to sneak around."

Just the facts of bi life folks! Wish it weren't so.

This also explains why often it seems that there are actually *two* very different bisexual communities, one for women, and one for men. It would be great if more bi women were sympathetic to the plight of their bisexual brothers!

[leizy]

You know, I used to feel that way, but I know and have talked to, emailed and read many bi women who struggle with being bi and married, just as much as guys.

The wake-up for me was a girlfriend who was in a committed relationship who was NOT down at all with her being bi, and while she offered threesomes, he refused. She worked as a bartender one night a week, and would do "buttery nipple" shots off the breasts of the other two women working the bar, after they closed up. For the other two, it was just a fun thrill. For my friend, it was her only outlet for her bisexuality, which she felt she had to have or she would explode.

Ultimately, I think that there are more differences between any two people regardless of gender, than there are differences between any two "groups" such as men and women, blacks and whites, fags and straights, etc. In other words, I think that the differences between people all wash out when we start looking at people as groups. Ultimately, we're all just people, just humans, crazy and fucked up inside, and desperately afraid somebody else will figure it out. Attempts to segregate us into groups just feeds the "they're different" mentality which is so often used as a justification for discrimination and exclusion.

Being bi and struggling isn't a Boy's Only Club my friend.

cheers.
david

[spartca]

Great post leizy/david! :)

[ncbeachgoers]

Have to agree with the original post. BIG difference in acceptance. Go to any Swingers club,Bi chicks everyhwere, not a Bi Guy ( or at least any that admit to being Bi) to be seen. Bi guys are outcasts in the Gay and straight community. Bi girls are always more accepted. Was talking with some swinger friends who were totally opposed to Bi Guys. I asked about male to male contact during play such as during double penetration and mfm play. They said "Incidental contact" was ok, but no real sex is allowed,,,LOL, sounds like football.... :bibounce:

[spartca]

Yeah like I said, it's just *different* for bi women than for bi men.

I'm sure being so popular creates a whole set of different problems for bi women - but I'd sure be willing to trade problems some days ;)

[carlb]

BIG difference in acceptance. Go to any Swingers club, Bi chicks everywhere, not a Bi Guy (or at least any that admit to being Bi) to be seen. Bi guys are outcasts in the Gay and straight community. Bi girls are always more accepted.

One exception: the lesbian community has been less than accepting at times of bi-women, as often they fear that such a gal could or would leave a woman for a man, Anne Heche-style.

But yes, the whole "swinger club" thing appears to be marketed to a lowest common denominator of the married, suburban straight husband wanting to try two women. If you're a single male, they want absolutely nothing to do with you. If you're a single female, they think they've won the lottery and that you were put on this earth to be their free "booty call".

If you're a bi-male? Heaven help you.

No, they're not doing any real favour to single, bisexual women with this.

Look at a personals column and, if a single female self-identifies as bi, it's most often to look for a lesbian relationship. NO MEN OR COUPLES.

Unwanted attention of a sexual nature isn't in any way the lesser of two evils.

I know I'll offend some by saying so, but the "couples clubs" are, for the most part, just a subminority within the straight married community - namely those curious to see what it would be like to have more than one partner.

They quite often do claim to welcome bisexual females, but largely because it feeds their own fantasies... in which bisexuals are willing to do anything, with anyone, any time.

The ones who see things this way are by no means doing bisexual women a favour; they're just feeding their own agenda.

Perhaps all of this should be left right where it was found, in the straight married community. Crossing paths between this and the various other other sexual minorities more often than not is not for the best. What they do has nothing to do with us.

[spartca]

Perhaps all of this should be left right where it was found, in the straight married community. Crossing paths between this and the various other other sexual minorities more often than not is not for the best. What they do has nothing to do with us.

If only it were possible. Mixed-gender bisexual support groups and "poly" meetups seem to be filled with these low-kinsey number "bisexuals."

It just gets old having to explain to these "bisexual couples" that it's possible to be bisexual as a man, and watch them scurry away in horror.

[DiamondDog]

If only it were possible. Mixed-gender bisexual support groups and "poly" meetups seem to be filled with these low-kinsey number "bisexuals."

It just gets old having to explain to these "bisexual couples" that it's possible to be bisexual as a man, and watch them scurry away in horror.
Just curious, what exactly would be an example of a "low kinsey bisxual"? Or how would they react?

I don't really go by the kinsey scale or the klein grid since they both seem too outdated, too static, too binary, and too linear.

My friend and I went to a bisexual support group and everyone was talking about the kinsey scale and the klein grid and it just got annoying and neither of us felt like we really fit in with the VERY cliquey group, or most of the people there even if they were nice but cruisy.

Everyone talks about the gay community not being supportive of bisexual men but I honestly haven't had any trouble with being out with my group of friends or where I'm at.

One really old guy once told me how I should pick a side and stay with it but then he kept cruising me and buying me beer and then gave me a kiss telling me how I'm hot. I just told him no thanks.

In my experiences, I've found that the gay "community" and the leather/BDSM communities to all be supportive of bisexuality.

Anyway, I don't care if people think I'm homosexual, as I don't go around splitting hairs and making a small aspect of myself a huge defining factor.

[Solomon]

I do certainly hear that!

I believe that women are in more of a position of power!

And I can certainly see where men have had that taken away by mainstream to some extent!

Who really wants to ostracized?? Not me!

Am actually amazed that me wife is still with me after me coming out of the closet so to speak with her.

[bigirl_inwv]

One exception: the lesbian community has been less than accepting at times of bi-women, as often they fear that such a gal could or would leave a woman for a man, Anne Heche-style.

But yes, the whole "swinger club" thing appears to be marketed to a lowest common denominator of the married, suburban straight husband wanting to try two women. If you're a single male, they want absolutely nothing to do with you. If you're a single female, they think they've won the lottery and that you were put on this earth to be their free "booty call".

If you're a bi-male? Heaven help you.

No, they're not doing any real favour to single, bisexual women with this.

Look at a personals column and, if a single female self-identifies as bi, it's most often to look for a lesbian relationship. NO MEN OR COUPLES.

Unwanted attention of a sexual nature isn't in any way the lesser of two evils.

I know I'll offend some by saying so, but the "couples clubs" are, for the most part, just a subminority within the straight married community - namely those curious to see what it would be like to have more than one partner.

They quite often do claim to welcome bisexual females, but largely because it feeds their own fantasies... in which bisexuals are willing to do anything, with anyone, any time.

The ones who see things this way are by no means doing bisexual women a favour; they're just feeding their own agenda.

Perhaps all of this should be left right where it was found, in the straight married community. Crossing paths between this and the various other other sexual minorities more often than not is not for the best. What they do has nothing to do with us.


Wow. I must say, you are quite off the mark in many ways. While many couples may want to swing for the satisfaction of a husbands fantasy, the majority do not. I've found that the very high majority of swinging couples are swinging so that the female half can be with other females. This is the case with me and also has been for EVERY couple that my fiance and I have been with.

As far as not wanting single males, as I said, most women are in it for women, therefore not wanting another man. Also, more couples may be more opened to the idea of a MMF threesome if most single males didn't start out their contact with some form of "My cock is huge. I bet I can please you better than he does. That's why you swing isn't it? Hubby isn't giving it to you right?" If you are a single female in the swinging community, of course you are going to feel like a "booty call." And of course they are feeding their own agenda. Isn't that the whole premise of swinging to begin with? Sex. Fantasies. Or did I miss that memo?

"Couples clubs" are in no way a subminority of the straight, suburban, married community. The only part of that you have correct is the married part, and even that isn't always the case. Every couple I have talked to has had at least one bisexual person and most of us are FAR from suburban.

I think you have a severe misconception of the swinging community.

[izzfan]

Wow, this is a fascinating thread and I really feel like commenting on it. When I was discovering/exploring my bisexual side, most of the bisexuals in the media seemed to be female and there was no way that I could relate to them. I spent a while working out if I was gay or straight and couldn't really come to an answer so in the end I labelled myself as bisexual but didnt really feel much connection to the label at the time. It was only when I found this site and read up about bisexuality that I became more comfortable with labelling myself as bisexual. Nevertheless, there are few prominent bisexual male figures in the media and this doesn't help in terms of role models when you're trying to understand bisexuality for the first time.
Bisexuality definately seems to be far more accepted amongst women and it is even seen as a positive attribute and a turn-on to str8 men. Yeah, I definately think there are two bisexual communities, I mean when u ask most ppl on the street what they instantly think of when the word 'bisexual' is mentioned they would probably be thinking of F/F situations that seem so commonplace in the media. It is interesting that some bisexual women seem to have a disdain for bi men when it comes to dating etc... [there was a thread about this a while ago] and there seems to be a general dislike of single bi men [btw, I'm a single bi man], I mean the number of profiles/personal ads I've seen that say 'no single men' etc... it hardly makes you feel included/ part of the community. Its as if no-one seems to like single bi men except for other single bi men. So yeah, I reckon that we are definately a separate group in the bi 'community'. Sorry if all of this sounds a bit heavy but it does annoy me a lot when people seem to shut out all single men as if they're some 'evil' or 'dangerous' group.

Just my :2cents:

Izzfan :flag3:

[gentlepen9]

I don't know anything about swinging and what not but I don't think that the experiences that bi men and women have are as black and white as it might be assumed. I think there's a lot of variation and it depends on what you're looking for.
When I came out to my husband it wasn't necessarily a bowl of cherries (no pun intended :tong: ) He didn't start trying to plan our first threesome and I'm thankful for that because I didn't want my sexuality to be turned into some source of entertainment. It's true that the image of the bisexual female is far more prominent in the media compared to the invisible bi male. But it has to be remembered that that acceptance comes with a price. On one extreme we have the image of the highly sexualized bi female, ready and willing to get it on with anyone wanting to live out their fantasies. And to the other extreme you have the disease carrying, bed hopping, sneaky bi male.
As I see it neither bi women or bi men have it better or worse than the other. We both are misunderstood and we both have to struggle against the preconceived notions that others may have about us due to our sexuality.
We're a family and we should have each others back instead of quibbling over who might have an easier time at getting laid.

[spartca]

I've found that the very high majority of swinging couples are swinging so that the female half can be with other females. This is the case with me and also has been for EVERY couple that my fiance and I have been with.

This is exactly my point - that same-sex behavior between women is the norm, but same-sex behavior between men is typically not part of the swinging paradigm.

In fact, I've seen explicit rules for many swingers clubs that expressly forbid sex between men, on pain of ejection.

[spartca]

As I see it neither bi women or bi men have it better or worse than the other. We both are misunderstood and we both have to struggle against the preconceived notions that others may have about us due to our sexuality.

We're a family and we should have each others back instead of quibbling over who might have an easier time at getting laid.

Hear, hear! What a great post, thank you! :)

[flexuality]

Mainstream does tend to "look down" on bi men a lot more than bi women. I think mainstream views bi men as "afraid to be gay" and bi women as "not really lesbian". Whatever that means?!?!

Maybe I have been too isolated...lol! I don't get it. I certainly do not hold those opinions.

Maybe I'm weird....but I find bi men to be attractive. It strikes me as taking guts for a man to admit he's attracted to men. I actually really LIKE that about my husband, and it has nothing to do with sex.

I also think that bisexualness is the natural condition of the human species and that the main reason so many people get so defensive and tend to frown on anything other than "straight" is that they realize at some level that they, too, have been attracted to the same gender and are very uncomfortable with that because it's not the "accepted social norm."

[spartca]

...the main reason so many people get so defensive and tend to frown on anything other than "straight" is that they realize at some level that they, too, have been attracted to the same gender and are very uncomfortable with that...

That seems really insightful there flexuality! Lots of people fear their repressed shadow sides and project their fears onto whatever person triggers them.

[bigirl_inwv]

This is exactly my point - that same-sex behavior between women is the norm, but same-sex behavior between men is typically not part of the swinging paradigm.

In fact, I've seen explicit rules for many swingers clubs that expressly forbid sex between men, on pain of ejection.



It's typically not part of the swinging paradigm because it's typically not what people are looking for. However, we have talked to many couples who do have a bicurious/bisexual male counterpart. It's not as rare as many think. My arguement for the other statement was simply b/c he said it was a "suburban, married, straight husband's fantasy to be with two women." And that's very incorrect.

Now the swing clubs that I have been to don't have any rules like that. Which is probably in part because the couple that owns both of those clubs are both bisexual. Perhaps bi men should do a little research into the clubs that they choose to go to.

I will admit that in the swinging community, yes, being a bisexual woman is totally accepted whereas being a bi male you have to look a little harder to find someone who is looking for that. But I just think that the swinging community has be severly misrepresented in this thread.

[bearisbare]

One thing I have noticed is that in general there is a lot less available in terms of organizations that are for bisexual men who want to sit down and discuss things, support each other or socialize, and not go there for the purposes of finding a hook-up.

There are countless groups all around the world where bisexual women can go and be amongst other bi women for support and discussion. Men do have the option of attending mixed-gender groups, and in the one I have been involved with for 16 years, it's generally been my experience that men are in the majority of attendees. However, if you are a bi man, and you want to sit down with others in a support setting without the presence of women, your options in this world are very few.

Something I had done in the last two years was outreach for the recent international bi conference in Toronto. It was easy to find women's groups, mixed-gender groups and organizations that are national in nature such as BiNetUSA. As for men's spaces, I could only come up with one, which happened to be the bisexual men's group in my home city.

I would love to know if any other spaces exist for bisexual men who aren't looking for hook-ups or play partners but who do want to find a space to discuss their lives and support other bi men in their situations.

[bicomrade]

The ironic thing is that there are perhaps millions of men who engage in same sex activities. Take a look at Craigslist and check out the m2m classifieds. It surpasses w2w classifieds by quite a lot.

[spartca]

Something I had done in the last two years was outreach for the recent international bi conference in Toronto. It was easy to find women's groups, mixed-gender groups and organizations that are national in nature such as BiNetUSA. As for men's spaces, I could only come up with one, which happened to be the bisexual men's group in my home city.

Thanks, that was an awesome conference, I really had a great time!!! :)



I would love to know if any other spaces exist for bisexual men who aren't looking for hook-ups or play partners but who do want to find a space to discuss their lives and support other bi men in their situations.

In my humble experience bi men fly under the radar because of extreme fear of being outed. There is a very real fear of physical harm for queer men, so bisexual men often live in a tenuous alliance with the gay men's community, but do not publicly acknowledge this alliance or organize distinctly as bi men.

As mentioned elsewhere, being closeted as a bi man is a very practical survival mechanism - life or death for some. Things are still a lot like Brokeback Mountain in many parts of this country. This can be a very different experience than for bi women, who are glamorized in the popular media.

Personally I've been involved with organizing in the bisexual community, and to be frank I've encountered resistance from every side, including from other bisexual men and women. A lot of bi men think I'm stupid for being out and won't show up to events. One bisexual woman explained that a lot of women think "men are for sex and women are for relationships," even within some quarters of the women's bisexual and bi dyke community. I feel this is so sad, hurtful, and divisive...

[jookboxcharlie]

My arguement for the other statement was simply b/c he said it was a "suburban, married, straight husband's fantasy to be with two women." And that's very incorrect.

Have you polled suburban, married, straight men? Having formerly identified as all of those things, I can assure you that FFM is the pinnacle of suburban, married, straight men's fantasy. Hell, it's still pretty high up on my to-do list! :tongue: I am certain it is number one with a bullet for straight men. Just look at the personal ads here, fer chrissakes- how many couples identify as bi-fem, str8 male?

Bi men ARE treated differently than bi women. The other night at the bar after work, the subject of bisexuality came up. Bi women were hot, bi men were disgusting. Needless to say I am not out at the office. I don't need to give them another reason to think I'm disgusting.

[bigirl_inwv]

Have you polled suburban, married, straight men? Having formerly identified as all of those things, I can assure you that FFM is the pinnacle of suburban, married, straight men's fantasy. Hell, it's still pretty high up on my to-do list! :tongue: I am certain it is number one with a bullet for straight men. Just look at the personal ads here, fer chrissakes- how many couples identify as bi-fem, str8 male?


I didn't mean that it wasn't a fantasy for those people. It very obviously is most males fantasy. But the statement before had said that was the basis of the swinging community. Suburban, married, straight men just wanting to try out having two women. And while, yes, you may get that occasionally, that is very much the minority in the swinging community.

[jookboxcharlie]

I didn't mean that it wasn't a fantasy for those people. It very obviously is most males fantasy. But the statement before had said that was the basis of the swinging community. Suburban, married, straight men just wanting to try out having two women. And while, yes, you may get that occasionally, that is very much the minority in the swinging community.

Not being a swinger, I will reserve judgment. However, I am curious as to what the majority is, because the VAST majority of the swingers (as opposed to polyamorous) I know would rather gag on donkey dick than have an MMF threesome. Or to put it bluntly- would your BF blow me? Because I would probably blow him.

[bigirl_inwv]

Not being a swinger, I will reserve judgment. However, I am curious as to what the majority is, because the VAST majority of the swingers (as opposed to polyamorous) I know would rather gag on donkey dick than have an MMF threesome. Or to put it bluntly- would your BF blow me? Because I would probably blow him.


LMAO!! That last line really made me laugh. Seriously. But anyway, to answer your question, yes, he probably would. We have played with couples that have a bisexual male and he has engaged in some M/M oral play. However, if you read my previous posts in this same thread, I already said that the majority of swingers are couples with a bisexual/bicurious female.

[carlb]

Something I had done in the last two years was outreach for the recent international bi conference in Toronto. It was easy to find women's groups, mixed-gender groups and organizations that are national in nature such as BiNetUSA. As for men's spaces, I could only come up with one, which happened to be the bisexual men's group in my home city.
I'd hesitate to say that mixed-gender groups are that easy to find, either. I'm sitting exactly halfway between the two largest cities in Canada and, short of going to either of those cities (Mont (http://www.algi.qc.ca/asso/bum)réal (http://bi-montreal.tripod.com/bilog/) or Toronto (http://www.torontobinet.org/)) there's nothing. Not even in Ottawa, which is a Hull of a long way from here but is the 4th largest city in Canada.

[bearisbare]

I'd hesitate to say that mixed-gender groups are that easy to find, either. I'm sitting exactly halfway between the two largest cities in Canada and, short of going to either of those cities (Mont (http://www.algi.qc.ca/asso/bum)réal (http://bi-montreal.tripod.com/bilog/) or Toronto (http://www.torontobinet.org/)) there's nothing. Not even in Ottawa, which is a Hull of a long way from here but is the 4th largest city in Canada.

Actually, FWIW, Ottawa finally has a mixed-gender group, organized by Ottawa-Bi-Town. Info is at
http://www.breathlessottawa.com/events.html#bitalk . Indeed, outside of that, between Toronto and Montreal, it seems to be left up to the universities for any sign whatsoever of a place for a bisexual to go (and I haven't heard about how welcoming the campus groups are to outsiders).

[NorthBiEast]

There's nothing in my area either. I might enjoy being part of a local BTGL community, but there isn't even a bar anymore! Forget two bi communities, I'd settle for one "not straight" community. I'm just not motivated enough to try to start something from scratch. :(

[carlb]

Actually, FWIW, Ottawa finally has a mixed-gender group, organized by Ottawa-Bi-Town. Info is at
http://www.breathlessottawa.com/events.html#bitalk . Indeed, outside of that, between Toronto and Montreal, it seems to be left up to the universities for any sign whatsoever of a place for a bisexual to go (and I haven't heard about how welcoming the campus groups are to outsiders).

There are plenty of organizations for lesbians, and many for gays, but nothing bi-specific. So yes, there are a few for small-q "queens" and not just Queen's (http://www.prideweek.org/) ;)


http://reelout.com Kingston's lesbian/gay film festival
http://www.outinkingston.org/
http://www.kingstonpride.org/
http://www.womynkingston.ca/ lesbian community guide
http://www.outinquinte.net/ Belleville


And yes, this is the first I've heard of there being anything in +1-613- that wasn't womyn-only, oriented more to other issues (such as poly) or targetted primarily at gays or lesbians with a token 'B' added symbolically to the name as an afterthought.

[DiamondDog]

LMAO!! That last line really made me laugh. Seriously. But anyway, to answer your question, yes, he probably would. We have played with couples that have a bisexual male and he has engaged in some M/M oral play. However, if you read my previous posts in this same thread, I already said that the majority of swingers are couples with a bisexual/bicurious female.

So he is bisexual then.

[littlerayofsunshine]

Have we all forgotten the Glory Holes we hear about so often, and wanking groups and oral groups and all the male oriented groups that exists, for bi and gay males to attend. Afternoon matinees, quarter and dollar booths? All of these and some more, are catered to the males needs and used for meeting. What do we women get? Maybe a lap dance from a strip club, maybe some one from online, maybe a 3 some, maybe this maybe that. We (bifemales) have no clubs, no theaters, not that we would want anything like that to begin with, but still all this whining about female bisexuality being accepted, ..lol...<Rolling eyes> We are so totally accepted, but only if we are catering our sexuality to suit some else's desires. Geez.. Thats really fair.


So many factors play here for both men and women: location, political parties, how many religeous sects, population of a given area.

A woman can be repressed for as many years as a man, and most likely will not have experienced same-sex sex before her 30's when most men have theirs in their teens. Fair and unfair can be played so many ways..There are no total winners.



Don't know where I was headed with this, I lost my train of thought. I stopped smoking on monday and ain't got my head completely straight yet..lol... please bear with me, I'm sure I had a point somewhere.:banghead:

[carlb]

My friend and I went to a bisexual support group and everyone was talking about the kinsey scale and the klein grid and it just got annoying and neither of us felt like we really fit in with the VERY cliquey group, or most of the people there even if they were nice but cruisy.

Everyone talks about the gay community not being supportive of bisexual men but I honestly haven't had any trouble with being out with my group of friends or where I'm at.

My first contact with any sort of organized "gay community" would've been a little over a decade ago, in Ottawa. I didn't find a negative attitude toward bi-males per se, more an assumption by which gays would assume others in that enviroment were also gay, not bi.

Mostly only an issue in contexts where the one common denominator in a group is the complete absence of opposite-sex attraction. It can feel awkward, if bi, to be in a gay bar with gay friends from the local pink triangle group, all discussing how one opposite-sex marriage had fallen apart because he'd felt no sexual attraction or could only complete the sexual act by fantasizing that he was with someone else, or was completely turned off and horrified by the idea of going down on her... um, what am I supposed to reply? "Give her to me, I'll eat her as I've been looking for opposite-sex couples to convert and steal and, bi the way, nice d!ck."? Um, not without feeling very out of place indeed, no way.

There were some groups in the big cities that were part of the gay community but were built around other common denominators (such as individual sports or leisure activities). That felt a little more comfortable, having something more in common is always a plus.

A "bi community", if it existed at all back then, was primarily something that existed as a subminority within the lesbian community - and this only by necessity as bisexuals did feel excluded by the lesbian womyn. Even the token gesture of adding 'B' (for bisexual) to gay community groups had apparently met some opposition by lesbians when that step was first taken in the early 1990's.


The ironic thing is that there are perhaps millions of men who engage in same sex activities. Take a look at Craigslist and check out the m2m classifieds. It surpasses w2w classifieds by quite a lot.

True, but not all of them are part of a "bisexual community" in any real sense, or even bi at all. Some are openly gay, some are closeted and cheating on a spouse, a wide range of possibilites.

Classifieds will also overrepresent the number looking for "just sex" (because of the anonymity of the medium, if nothing else) and that will skew things toward more-males.

[wanderingrichard]

If only it were possible. Mixed-gender bisexual support groups and "poly" meetups seem to be filled with these low-kinsey number "bisexuals."

It just gets old having to explain to these "bisexual couples" that it's possible to be bisexual as a man, and watch them scurry away in horror.

you ain't just a kiddin there......

[DiamondDog]

My first contact with any sort of organized "gay community" would've been a little over a decade ago, in Ottawa. I didn't find a negative attitude toward bi-males per se, more an assumption by which gays would assume others in that enviroment were also gay, not bi.

Mostly only an issue in contexts where the one common denominator in a group is the complete absence of opposite-sex attraction. It can feel awkward, if bi, to be in a gay bar with gay friends from the local pink triangle group, all discussing how one opposite-sex marriage had fallen apart because he'd felt no sexual attraction or could only complete the sexual act by fantasizing that he was with someone else, or was completely turned off and horrified by the idea of going down on her... um, what am I supposed to reply? "Give her to me, I'll eat her as I've been looking for opposite-sex couples to convert and steal and, bi the way, nice d!ck."? Um, not without feeling very out of place indeed, no way.

Different strokes for different folks.

I don't mind hearing stuff like this as it can show you what life is like in the closet.

Anyway, I can't say that there haven't been times when I've been repulsed by women's bodies.

[softfruit]

Just wanted to add to the emerging thread here about bi social & support groups that (having been to BiPhoria, BiYouth and BAM in Manchester, Sheffield BiWeekly, Birmingham Bi Women, Brighton Bothways and London Underground - I've been out for a fair old while!) I don't really recognise much of what people have quoted here in most of those spaces.

Not to say that the folks in this thread haven't been to notionally bi and bi-friendly spaces where they found people who thought it was weird for boys to be bi, or that were dominated by mostly-straight-bis... but that those experiences may reflect the particular groups you were at, and quite possibly even just reflect those groups at that particular stage in their existence. And I get the impression there can be significant differences between countries that perhaps reflect that nebulous thing "national character".

BiPhoria for instance had a phase about 8 years ago where it was quite dominated by people heavily involved in BDSM and so for vanilla folks the "where shall we go on a social meet-up? how about (local-sm-club)?" could be quite off-putting. But a couple of years later that particular generation of BiPhoria folks had tended to move on and so the space was much less like you were at a bi/SM group and back to a more neutral bi space.

I seem to have waffled on a lot longer than I meant to, so to cut back to the point: bi groups around the world tend to have bis in them, but otherwise short of trying the ones nearest you, you don't know what the culture of each will be. If you don't like the local one then you can always spark off another one, or as most of these things are volunteer led groups with a little grit and time commitment you can help the existing group to grow in a direction that suits you better.

[spartca]

...bi groups around the world tend to have bis in them, but otherwise short of trying the ones nearest you, you don't know what the culture of each will be. If you don't like the local one then you can always spark off another one, or as most of these things are volunteer led groups with a little grit and time commitment you can help the existing group to grow in a direction that suits you better.

That's really insightful and great advice, softfruit! You gotta play to win, and whoever shows up regularly makes the group what it is.

Other times it's worth starting a new group - something that can add even more vibrancy to an existing bisexual community!

[softfruit]

That's really insightful and great advice, softfruit! You gotta play to win, and whoever shows up regularly makes the group what it is.
Why thankyou! *mwah!* And yes, exactly what I was trying to get at in my waffly way :)

Other times it's worth starting a new group - something that can add even more vibrancy to an existing bisexual community!
To get all misty-eyed and reminiscent about it, a few years back there were no fewer than five bi groups running in my city - different people had different focuses for their energy or what kind of space they wanted. So there was a women's group, a mens' group, a mixed gender adult group, a bi youth group (mostly came about cos I went to the mixed group and found I didn't have much in common with people who had mortgages and such!) and even a bi political group doing activist work.

You can imagine the vibrancy of the bi scene that leads to - lots of different banners on Pride marches, people organising weekend retreats for young bis or bi women, producing joint posters which showed off there being oodles of stuff going on.

[12voltman59]

Mainstream does tend to "look down" on bi men a lot more than bi women. I think mainstream views bi men as "afraid to be gay" and bi women as "not really lesbian". Whatever that means?!?!

Maybe I have been too isolated...lol! I don't get it. I certainly do not hold those opinions.

Maybe I'm weird....but I find bi men to be attractive. It strikes me as taking guts for a man to admit he's attracted to men. I actually really LIKE that about my husband, and it has nothing to do with sex.

I also think that bisexualness is the natural condition of the human species and that the main reason so many people get so defensive and tend to frown on anything other than "straight" is that they realize at some level that they, too, have been attracted to the same gender and are very uncomfortable with that because it's not the "accepted social norm."


This is a very good thread that has certainly brought out lots of very strong opinions---I do like what Flex said above--

To be a bisexual whether male or female is without doubt highly problematic---just look at all the things that people are talking about here.

I am really rather new to getting into the political and social ramifications of it all-I am still trying to figure out where my life fits into bisexuality and bisexuality fits into my life--

Thanks to everyone for their varying perspectives and reflecting on their personal experiences and feelings on the matter.

[sexybicplinwv]

This is a very good thread that has certainly brought out lots of very strong opinions---I do like what Flex said above--

To be a bisexual whether male or female is without doubt highly problematic---just look at all the things that people are talking about here.

I am really rather new to getting into the political and social ramifications of it all-I am still trying to figure out where my life fits into bisexuality and bisexuality fits into my life--

Thanks to everyone for their varying perspectives and reflecting on their personal experiences and feelings on the matter.
I just Loved this because it is so true :female: (((Always be true to yourself)))

[bi-robin-calif]

FFM is the pinnacle of suburban, married, straight men's fantasy

Indeed. I have many male friends who claim to be bisexual just so they can meet bi women. They have no interest in m2m sex.

I saw a bumper-sticker and a men's t-shirt that sum up society's attitudes:

sticker: "I support gay marriage, if both chicks are really hot!"

shirt: "I'm not gay, but my boyriend is."

[TaylorMade]

This has been such an insightful thread that if it could be pinned, it should. And Robin ... do you warn your bi female friends about those? Because that is a very sneaky way to meet bi women, that could lead to a world of hurt. And she'd be a little emotionally upset too.

;)

*Taylor*

[bi-robin-calif]

Taylor, as a matter of fact that was something that *l* learned from a couple of of my bi women friends.

Whenever I begin a new relationship with any woman, I let her know up front about my orientation. And if she happens to be bi, so much the better--but I also make it clear to her that I will *never* use her as bait to pick up other women.

Using her to troll for hot guys, however, is another issue entirely... :bigrin:

[TaylorMade]

Taylor, as a matter of fact that was something that *l* learned from a couple of of my bi women friends.

Whenever I begin a new relationship with any woman, I let her know up front about my orientation. And if she happens to be bi, so much the better--but I also make it clear to her that I will *never* use her as bait to pick up other women.

Using her to troll for hot guys, however, is another issue entirely... :bigrin:

I see. . . I wouldn't mind helping my guy pick up another guy, but I admit I'd be using my bi boyfriend to help me pick up another woman, because , like some bi women, I'm a klutz around other women.

*Taylor*

[tell_no_one99]

I don't know everyone in here has valid points so here is my :2cents:


I Strongly feel that Bisexual women have the advantage but are taken advantage of at the same time. the Media portray's bisexual women as something natural I mean every 3rd Music Video had two women kissing, Movies and TV have their share too and don't even get me on the Internet (I'm convinced the internet has some mystical Power over every white girl between the ages of 18 - 30 , it makes them take thier clothes off and kiss eachother) I've been out to bars and whitnessed girls kissing and just about every guy there will go ga ga over it.

with men there are more on the internet that is for sure But allot of these guys are not "true Bisexual" (Guys Back me up here if you understand what I'm saying here)
you have the gay guys that Like married guys because they like cum
Married guys that are clearly gay but are married because they can't face it
then there is what I call the Prison sex guys these are guys that like to get head but wont give head.

You elimitate all those and you are down to the Bi Guys these guys
these guys can't be open and get a date with a straight girl, who want to meet a bi girl but can't find one becaue they all want girls lol

Yeah I'm ranting now so I'll shut up :compuser:

[TorontoGuy2007]

I Strongly feel that Bisexual women have the advantage but are taken advantage of at the same time. the Media portray's bisexual women as something natural I mean every 3rd Music Video

wow, this is an excellent thread. i don't know how i missed it the first time.. but i totally agree with the societal double standard.

two prime examples:

britney and madonna kiss and they are considered heros!

two guys kiss on a snickers commercial and they are considered disgusting freaks!

as far as the comment about "no single men wanted" well, the statistics don't lie.. if you go thru all personal ads on this site, you will find 100 times more "no single men wanted" than "no single women wanted"

also, speaking of statistics, for the record, since joining this site back on December, i have been contacted via private message from about 30 people.. about 25 of these were men.. 5 were women

out of 5 women, all 5 were looking for friendship, none have asked for sex.

out of the 25 men, 5 were looking for friendship while 20 were asking for casual sex.

so perhaps the theory that "men only want sex but women want friendship/romance first" well, perhaps this theory has been proven!

furthermore, overall, i think people who use personal ads here are looking for same sex experiences.. most come here to explore their same sex curiousities or sexual needs.. those who want opposite sex experineces will likely not look here as they obviously have other avenues for that..

but the bottom line, yes, there is indeed a societal double standard regarding bisexuality for men vs bisexuality for women..

furthermore, i might add, there is a societal double standard regarding transgenderist behavior out of men and women.

bottom line, having read this thread, i clearly have a much better understanding as to why it appears that more bisexual men are afraid to come out, and why single bisexual men feel frustrated and left out..

heck, i guess it's a good thing that i am a pre-op transsexual, so i won't be a bisexual male for much longer!

[bi-robin-calif]

every 3rd Music Video had two women kissing,

It's simple demographics & marketing--the target audince is males betwee the ages of 16 and 24.

I suspect a lot of the aparent hostility towards gay and bi men is largely because of fear. "Oh, my God! What if my buddies find out I look at cocks!" "I'd like to try sucking a cock, but what if I like it? Then I'll be a queer."

[TaylorMade]

It's simple demographics & marketing--the target audince is males betwee the ages of 16 and 24.

I suspect a lot of the aparent hostility towards gay and bi men is largely because of fear. "Oh, my God! What if my buddies find out I look at cocks!" "I'd like to try sucking a cock, but what if I like it? Then I'll be a queer."

There you go. It's the assumption that the moment you like a guy, you are no longer straight, you are gay. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. Bi doesn't seem to exist in the mind of straight men in regards to other men.

I'm still trying to get to the bottom of this.

*Taylor*

[bi-robin-calif]

<mutter, mutter> wish someone would try to get to my bottom...

[TaylorMade]

<mutter, mutter> wish someone would try to get to my bottom...

Someone will try to take your "hot gates" at some point... :tong:

*Taylor*

[TorontoGuy2007]

Do not pass go, Bi doesn't seem to exist

exactly. it's amazing the sterotyping out there.. according to people i have come across online recently, a man is GAY if he does any of these:

1 - plays with his nipples
2 - wears pantyhose
3 - listens to classical music
4 - has one sexual fantasy about a guy
5 - gives a guy friend a hug
6 - enjoys fingering his own butt
7 - cries
8 - likes figure skating
9 - kisses another guy
10 - takes a bubble bath

the list goes on.. lol

[TaylorMade]

exactly. it's amazing the sterotyping out there.. according to people i have come across online recently, a man is GAY if he does any of these:

1 - plays with his nipples
2 - wears pantyhose
3 - listens to classical music
4 - has one sexual fantasy about a guy
5 - gives a guy friend a hug
6 - enjoys fingering his own butt
7 - cries
8 - likes figure skating
9 - kisses another guy
10 - takes a bubble bath

the list goes on.. lol

You forgot some.

11-like any musical other than The Fantastiks
12-Is a pacifist
13-gets a manicure done professionally
14-Colors or dyes his hair
15-is too good of a dancer

There are alot more where that came from.

*Taylor*

[Seigun]

Bi men are not accepted in the mainstream?

Does anyone realize that the mainstream media is dominated by straight men who love the idea of two females together? Why look at movies, TV, and other sources for confirmation of being bi and male? Being bi at all already puts many of us under the radar, male or female.

I can also see how straight men would be openly interested in bi females, and take advantage of that while claiming two men are not acceptable: They don't very much like men, after all.

Like I told a friend of mine, "Seeing two or more women together for straight men is like looking at a kaleidescope of T&A."

I've seen it over and over again, and I honestly believe I've figured this one out; Frankly, it doesn't make me feel very accepted...not as a person, anyway. *shudder*

If bi men and women affirmed each other's sexuality more (or more publically), then I think this would be less of a worry. :2cents:

...and who gave bi men on this site the idea that nobody loves you, anyway?! :cool: If I could count all the people (bi women mostly, but also straight) who have told me otherwise.... :flag1:

...of course, here we go with the kaleidescope theory, again... ;)

[spartca]

If bi men and women affirmed each other's sexuality more (or more publically), then I think this would be less of a worry.

Thanks to all of you who recussitated this thread! :)

This is a topic near and dear to my heart. I do hope for more solidarity for bis within the queer community as a whole, and I believe that starts at home between bi men and bi women. Thanks Seuigun for pointing this out!!!

[shadowsaffinity]

yes, i do agree people in the bi community should be more supportive of each other. i think people in the whole Queer community should be more supportive of each other.

i am very involved in the Queer community and i am so often met with such resentment for being bi. i was recently at a trans workshop and the presenter was screaming at me saying "you don't even know why we HATE you!!!" (referencing Stonewall)

i don't see much of a bi community period here in nyc. everything i do that is lgbt, all my volunteer work & church, etc., i am the only bi person.

i personally have to disagree on the view about bisexual women though. many men think they would love to have a bisexual wife or girlfriend, but i have personally witnessed many of them get totally freaked out once the feelings the woman has for another women are serious. it's all well and good if a woman wants to hook up with another woman, especially if they're cool with the guys watching. lots of guys are all for that, but it's a different stoy if the woman (gulp!) loves the woman and (gasp!) doesn't want to have guys watching.

i am bisexual, married and polyamorous. i think it takes a very special kind of relationship with your partner with lots of love and trust and communication in oder for that to work. my partner understands that i may fall in love with the women i date and he supports that. he knows it's not for his enjoyment.

[bi-robin-calif]

"Seeing two or more women together for straight men is like looking at a kaleidescope of T&A."

Which is why I prefer "normal" heterosexual porn: if 2 women together is a kaledidescope, 2 or more men and women together is a veritable cornucopia!