were would you draw the line

[belhelne]

Who would you draw the line with in having bi sex with?

Would you ever consider step family as viable? (step Son/ step Daughters)

[dusty099]

dont think i would do that, but it is the stuff fantasies are made of.

[TorontoGuy2007]

sorry, family members, even step family, is just wrong..

[littlerayofsunshine]

Ewwwwwww. Remember always that the emphasis is on Son and Daughter and never Step.

[smokey]

Who would you draw the line with in having bi sex with?

Would you ever consider step family as viable? (step Son/ step
Daughters)


SEX with my family? AWK!!! talk about killing the sex drive!!! no no not that.
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[sweetgagirl]

SON...DAUGHTER...makes me dry!!! Even if it is step..That is sick

[mikeiam4]

Son or daughter would probably be out of the question, but brothers/sisters/cousins..... my first experience was with a brother, so i cant say no to that!!

[Fire Lotus]

Even though they are not blood relatives, they are still family. It is so wrong in many ways!

[jookboxcharlie]

I would totally do my ex-sister-in-law- she's bi, she's fair game, but she is in a relationship with an FTM trans person. Oddly enough, it would just be regular, garden variety straight sex for both of us.

[LoveLion]

This thread implies Bi sexuals are people who would fuck anything with two legs. Its this kind of thing that contributes to the false sterio type that Bis are sluts.

Of course I wouldnt have sex with someone in my familty! What kind of stupud question is that? and you know what? My answer has nothing to do with my orientation.

I am bisexual, I dont have sex randomly, I dont have sex with people Iv met over the internet, I dont have 1 night stands, I wont have sex with someone I dont care for, I am not a slut, I am a normal person, my orientation has nothing to do with my sexual habits other than the potential gender of my partner.

Frankly I am slightly offended by this question

[brittdun]

I am offended by the question, too. I don't have sex with anyone who passes either... No family members, no "in-laws" nothing like that... I'm not promiscuous. I am bisexual. That means that I tend to find both men and women attractive. That's all. Nuff said.

[Herbwoman39]

Uhm, Ick. Yes the emphasis should definitely be on the SON and/or DAUGHTER part. Otherwise it's time for the next round of Incest: A Game The Whole Family Can Play!

Seriously though, even as teens or those in their early 20s some young people (please note this is NOT a blanket statement) don't always have the best judgment so it's up to the older people to take the reins and guide any situation that might be leaning towards the sexual.

[swans]

When I was 14 I spent a few nights at my aunty's place. She went out for the night leaving my alone with my 16 year old "crazy" cousin (female). She was, and still is, sex mad. The more extreme the better! She seduced me- got me horny- turned me on, shaved my balls- licked my anus- ate my cum- and finally dragged me to the bathroom where I was told to urinate on her as she masturbated lying naked in the bath tub!

I was a shocked, and still am, at her adventurous labido. But also turned on.

[TrimBeardHairyBod]

I find the righteous indignation I've encountered on this thread quite comical, really.

As for the question as to whether or not I would have sex with a step-child, my answer would have to be NO. Not on any moral grounds but because the risk of possible discord within the family would be too great. Secrets have a way of getting out.

[babbington]

I draw the line at ugly people.

[12voltman59]

No family members or anyone who is far younger than myself who I might serve as a surrogate parent, mentor or any other similar function--I pretty much have a cut off age of about 25 as my absolute minimum age that I would consider having sex with the person in question being either female or male---anyone younger than that and I would feel as though I am a cradle robber and a pedophile!!!!!!

[open2both]

Been there...
My cousin (male) is a nurse and we've always been close and he was wonderfully supportive in my physical therapy and yes, we've made lotsa love as young men do. Since we weren't in it for a "relationship" it was all about hormones and the taboo thrill and we genuinely like each other.
Make sure you both can handle the emotional consequences though.

[zeroboss]

I am not a slut, I am a normal person

Not that you're being judgmental or anything.

[jedinudist]

Yurk...

excuse me, I just threw up a little

[Long Duck Dong]

I have sat and considered this question for a while, and for me the answer is no, I wouldn't consider them viable partners

I do that, bearing in mind that the population is so vast, that there is not a need to consider something like that

if I was to cast my mind back a good 2200 years to areas where there was not a vast population, and i lived in a very small clan or tribe, I suppose that the answer may be different as communal sexual activity was the norm

looking at the issue of step kin.... they are related in two ways,
by marriage and blood lines, your parent marries and have a child with a step parent

by marriage only. your parent marries another other than your other natural parent

in regards to the second one, the legal standing is clear, it is regarded as incest.... however, there is a blurry line with bond by marriage only kin
If the parent and step parent were to divorce, then the person is not actually step kin, after the divorce.....

in all seriousness, a lot of the answers reflect the standing of todays society, there is no need to sleep with step kin, its a choice a person can make

[LoveLion]

Not that you're being judgmental or anything.

That is a miss quote from me that you used. By only using those two lines it would make me seem judgmental, but if you real what I actually wrote there is a long list of things I wrote not just "I am not a slut, I am a normal person." None of the things in the list apply or compare to one another. I am not saying sluts aren't normal people, I am saying "I am not a slut and also I am a normal" person. I am NOT saying "I am not a slut and therefore I am a normal person." Also I would like to ad that I was refereeing to myself as an example of a bisexual who does not fit into the negative stereotype that this topic suggests, and was not judging or even talking about anyone else.

Also I meant no offense to anyone who has ended up in a situation like that. What I do have an issue with is when we are trying to get rid of the stereotype that all Bisexuals would have sex with ANYONE, along comes a post on the bisexual forum asking if we would have sex with our Sons and Daughters. It is offensive that someone would suggest that just because we are bisexual we would me more likely to be incestuous.

I may not have been completly clear in my last post and again I apologies if I offended anyone. I was in a rather foul mood when I wrote that and may have gotten carried away, but I stand by my opinion.

[tatooedpunk]

I find the righteous indignation I've encountered on this thread quite comical, really.

As for the question as to whether or not I would have sex with a step-child, my answer would have to be NO. Not on any moral grounds but because the risk of possible discord within the family would be too great. Secrets have a way of getting out.

Should have nothing to do with secrets or morals,no sex with children EVER,PERIOD,FULL STOP

[mikeiam4]

**should have nothing to do with secrets or morals,no sex with children EVER,PERIOD,FULL STOP**

I gotta agree with that, but the question is raised as to when does a person become an adult and not a child. Should a son or daughter come to you for sex, and that son or daughter is 25, thats when the question becomes relevant in my opinion. What is the magic number? Is there one? I honestly dont think that I would ever consider such a thing if it were my son or daughter, no matter the age, step-relations or otherwise. If said offspring (being of age of course) really wanted it and came on to me very strongly... well... I would think very long and hard about it before even considering it.

That being said, if it were my father or mother (pardon while I steal another's idea and throw up), never, no how, no way, wouldnt/couldnt even think of considering such a thing!

[Lorcan]

generally speaking, no.

But there are exceptions to every rule. If you didnt really know the child when he was young....and they're not a child anymore....and if it's not a secret..... I can see two people like that falling in love. If it's okay with everyone involved.... It's okay, wouldn't ya say?

[NorthBiEast]

To me the problem is the power dynamic. It is not appropriate for somone who has influence over someone else (boss, parental figure, etc) to engage in, or ask to engage in, sexual relationships with that person. :2cents:

[sailorashore]

FINALLY, somebody nailed it! (the power dynamic). Surely, none of us condones taking taking advantage of a child, or even an adolescent, to whom we are an authority figure, e.g. stepFATHER, or stepMOTHER. I will never attend another Woody Allen flick, because I think his betrayal of his position of trust vis a vis his adopted daughter is the lowest kind of sleaze.
But my own father, for example, after several years as a widower, remarried in his seventies to a woman in her sixties. They both had several grown children. Not a concern, in my case, but I could easily imagine a scenario where, for example, adult stepsisters and adult stepbrothers, not blood related, who might never have even met as youngsters, could be attracted to each other, and decide to act on that impulse. "Family" in that context is not the same critter as stepson, or stepdaughter. Thank you, NorthBi East, for that observation.
I do agree, though, that any "step" with the word "son" or "daughter" in it automatically is strictly off-limits to anyone with a shred of integrity.
That's my :2cents:
sailorashore

[darkeyes]

I have often pondered this question, not because I have step anything, because I don't, but I do have friends who have step parents, brothers and sisters, and it is something which has entered my life quite frequently when they have talked about their yummie new step brother or sister or even father or mother, and I have observed the development of relationships within those families. When a kid of course it was often quite the opposite as their resentment of their step anythings imposing on their lives with their natural mum or dad. However as is often the case, their attitudes changed as they went into puberty and the step brother or sister became an attractive proposition.

Like with so many things in life I don't think there is an easy or a single answer to the question. There is no blood tie between steps, but there often develops a love and bond between them which is every bit as close as with natural parents or siblings. In such a case I can imagine that the guilt of feeling and worse the guilt suffered if a sexual or love relationship developed can be felt as if it was incest.

However very often this is not the case. In the case of step brothers and sisters they are simply people who are raised together, and it may be that the bond never develops as if they were natural blood kin. As they grow into puberty and adulthood, it is probably natural for many that an attaction develops. Also in the case of step parents who are of an age with their step son or daughter, it can be so easy for that attraction also to develop. Such attraction often develops into love, and while many may condemn it, we should all try and understand and resist the temptation to condemn it out of hand. Certainly it isn't an ideal relationship for such is the potential for family, pain suffering, disruption and and retribution, that who knows where things will end up.

When it comes to step parents preying on younger step children, especially those who are under age of course this is an awful abuse of power which none of us should ever support, but relationships between human beings are such that their complexities differ from person to person, and each case has to be considered in isolation and on its own merits.

I have m8s who have had wonderful flings with step sisters and brothers, who have had disasters which have caused much pain and suffering, and who have simply had fantasies which they have never acted upon. One even had an affair with her step father which she regrets bitterly and for which her mum says she will never be forgiven.

Within step families it is possible, even likely for the full gambit of human emotions to be played out. Sometimes it will work out but the probability of catastrophe is very real and any who considers such a relationship has to think it through from beginning to end before anything ever happens. But as with more usual human relationships, most do not work out, and this is even more the case within step families.

So it is never an easy black and white question relationships within step families. While I would never condemn out of hand any such relationship, I would feel obliged to advise the greatest caution to any who are considering it! I do know I am only too happy that it is something I was never faced with and my heart goes out to any who have this awful dilemma to face.

[AngelOfTheMystic]

Family to me is never fair game. Even though my sis is really pretty the thought of doing anything with her or anyone else in my faimily for that matter is sickening to me, but as they say to each his own!

[Jared101]

Family is the best way to go cuz you know if they have diseases and love them and feel safe with them. I do it with my dad, 2 brothers, mom, and sister.

[Solomon]

I am a step father to five kids... three of them are girls, women now. two are guys. Frankly, for me I have had fantasies, that's where it ends. They are all very attractive, but me having sex with them... I don't know i'm actually just glad it never became more than a discussion between me and my wife.

I don't fully understand why, but it just doesn't seem right or even fun.

As far as the question being directed towards bisexual people... I have a newsflash, it really doesn't matter if your bisexual, heterosexual, gay, lesbian, purple, green, or whatever at one point or another everyone is asked the question, so go ahead be offended all ya like, it's your life not mine.

[mech_chick21]

family is out of the question. its just not something tha should even be considered. this time its not all in the family.

thats my :2cents:

[Avocado]

Incest is wrong but then so is same sex marriage apparently. As long as a relationship is between 2 consenting adults I don't see any reason why it should be illegal. Banning it on the grounds of genes is very dodgy ground and smacks of aryan to me. I also don't buy into all this abuse of trust bullshit, just a nanny state mentality set down by people who are convinced they're right all the time.

[mannysg]

In-Laws, yes.
Any other family (including "step"), NO

[Solomon]

btw, i'm not only a step-father, but i've also enjoyed incest, in fact it was with my cousin that became my first gay act as well as my first sexual experience at all.

in short, i believe i was a bit more screwed up when i was told about how wrong that was. so i'm NOT convinced that incest is wrong in principle.

sex with children who're not emotionally or physically developed to handle it is wrong.

having sex with someone who is in a position of dependancy on you would certainly have POTENTIAL for abuse (although tell that to the women in history who were forced some agreeabley forced to depend on a husband for money and the consequences of money).

but i'm not convinced that family sexual relations are in principle wrong.

[tatooedpunk]

I am sorry if i seem to be repeating myself, but i read a lot of romantic views on this post but again no sex with immediate family (or step if they regard you as mummy or daddy) under any circumstances,not even if they look "hot" as they get older. Just no!

[glantern954]

This is the exact argument that the rest of the world is making and the fear is that eventually EVERYTHING will be acceptable.

Where is the line drawn? I think a huge majority is always going to say that INCEST is NOT acceptable. Pedophilia is NOT acceptable. Beastiality is NOT acceptable. Necrophelia is NOT acceptable.

If you are having sex with a parent or guardian, you are being abused, even if you are OK with it. No matter how old you are. Your trust is being taken advantage of.

This is probably the most opinionated thing I have ever written here, but the idea of being OK with a family member being used for sexual gratification is just freaking disgusting. Get some therapy. Please.

[flexuality]

I was gonna stay out of this thread, but I feel very strongly about the inaccurate assumption that those who are ok with incest are ok with abuse.

Just the word "incest" brings up a lot of intense emotions. For myself, especially. But I have come to understand that my definition of incest is not necessarily the definition used by others.

In my own case, I was raped by 2 uncles when I was three years old. Was that incest? You betcha! Was it ok? Absolutely NOT!

My mother was sexually inapproriate with me from an early age. Was that incest? Yes. Was it ok? NO.

I was also very "exploratory sexually" with a cousin (f/f). Was that incest? Probably. Was it ok? Well, it was mutual, it was fun, safe and we had no idea that society had decided it wasn't ok at the time. We didn't think we were doing anything wrong. I still don't think it was wrong. It certainly wasn't abusive.

The diffenerce between the first 2 examples I shared, and the 3rd example is ABUSE.

And yes, very, very often incest IS abusive.

ANY abusive sexual act that is not agreed upon by ALL involved (directly or indirectly)or involves people not of an emotional maturity level to make responsible decisions, is where I draw the line.

Am I FOR incest? Certainly not in the way society defines it. No I am not. We don't practice incest either. In any form.

However, I do agree with Solomon in that it is not always "wrong in principle" in that there are societies (maybe not so much today, but in the past) where inter-family relations were common and not abusive and were acceptable.

I am not talking about sex with kids. The emotional maturity level to make responsible decisions usually means "adult" level.

Don't get me wrong. I am not promoting incest. I do not want any part of it.

I think what I am trying to say is that when one has been ABUSED incestuously AND also had enjoyable incestuous experiences, that it really f*cks with one's head to be told over and over that ALL incest is disgusting, bad, evil, etc. and that I must have been a "victim of abuse" yada yada yada....

I mean think about it....how do you respond when someone tells you that being bisexual is disgusting, bad, evil, etc? If being bisexual was abusive, then it proably would be wrong.

I guess that is my point - ABUSE is wrong. Incest usually IS abusive....but it is NOT ALWAYS abusive.

[Avocado]

I was gonna stay out of this thread, but I feel very strongly about the inaccurate assumption that those who are ok with incest are ok with abuse.

Just the word "incest" brings up a lot of intense emotions. For myself, especially. But I have come to understand that my definition of incest is not necessarily the definition used by others.

In my own case, I was raped by 2 uncles when I was three years old. Was that incest? You betcha! Was it ok? Absolutely NOT!

My mother was sexually inapproriate with me from an early age. Was that incest? Yes. Was it ok? NO.

I was also very "exploratory sexually" with a cousin (f/f). Was that incest? Probably. Was it ok? Well, it was mutual, it was fun, safe and we had no idea that society had decided it wasn't ok at the time. We didn't think we were doing anything wrong. I still don't think it was wrong. It certainly wasn't abusive.

The diffenerce between the first 2 examples I shared, and the 3rd example is ABUSE.

And yes, very, very often incest IS abusive.

ANY abusive sexual act that is not agreed upon by ALL involved (directly or indirectly)or involves people not of an emotional maturity level to make responsible decisions, is where I draw the line.

Am I FOR incest? Certainly not in the way society defines it. No I am not. We don't practice incest either. In any form.

However, I do agree with Solomon in that it is not always "wrong in principle" in that there are societies (maybe not so much today, but in the past) where inter-family relations were common and not abusive and were acceptable.

I am not talking about sex with kids. The emotional maturity level to make responsible decisions usually means "adult" level.

Don't get me wrong. I am not promoting incest. I do not want any part of it.

I think what I am trying to say is that when one has been ABUSED incestuously AND also had enjoyable incestuous experiences, that it really f*cks with one's head to be told over and over that ALL incest is disgusting, bad, evil, etc. and that I must have been a "victim of abuse" yada yada yada....

I mean think about it....how do you respond when someone tells you that being bisexual is disgusting, bad, evil, etc? If being bisexual was abusive, then it proably would be wrong.

I guess that is my point - ABUSE is wrong. Incest usually IS abusive....but it is NOT ALWAYS abusive.

Exactly. Some people should think of the way queers are defined, the way some people think same-sex marriage can lead to legalised peadophilia and bestiality, stop being so hypocritical and get off their fucking sanitised high horses.

[glantern954]

I guess that is my point - ABUSE is wrong. Incest usually IS abusive....but it is NOT ALWAYS abusive.

Even the victimless examples are fetishized and feed those that get off on the taboo. As a result, mainstream porn tries to promote it. Then you have people trying to make their fantasy a reality, often with a victim.

[unum60]

Doing harm is not erotic, sensual, fun, or satisfying. Harm to myself or others is repulsive in that I would have lost control over my own appetites. Understand I only speak for myself.

I compare this issue to an old can of beans on the top shelf of the back pantry!

I am hungry, there is no food in the house, it is cold outside, and I do not have any gasoline for the car --- that old can of beans on the back shelf is looking better and better.

It is a problem if I have conducted my life as such to create a set of circumstances that results in my finding the old can of beans even remotley interesting as food.

Laslty, please please please leave the children alone!

[Solomon]

Even the victimless examples are fetishized and feed those that get off on the taboo. As a result, mainstream porn tries to promote it. Then you have people trying to make their fantasy a reality, often with a victim.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, just as I'm entitled to mine.

And quite frankly, people try to make their fantasies a reality all the time anyways. Also, what's NOT fetishized anymore? lol!

I still am not convinced that family sexual relations in principle is wrong.

[Solomon]

Doing harm is not erotic, sensual, fun, or satisfying. Harm to myself or others is repulsive in that I would have lost control over my own appetites. Understand I only speak for myself.

I compare this issue to an old can of beans on the top shelf of the back pantry!

I am hungry, there is no food in the house, it is cold outside, and I do not have any gasoline for the car --- that old can of beans on the back shelf is looking better and better.

It is a problem if I have conducted my life as such to create a set of circumstances that results in my finding the old can of beans even remotley interesting as food.

Laslty, please please please leave the children alone!

Which is the point exactly, you are equating incest with pedophilia and/or abuse of power. That's not what's being questioned here.

I believe what IS being questioned is family relations between consenting adults!

So YOU please stop dragging CHILDREN into it!

[unum60]

I believe the post began with stepson and stepdaughter language in it, or was I mistaken, if so --- oops!

Jason

[Solomon]

stepsons and stepdaughters do grow up at least that is the intention.

BTW, just to be clear, I'm not promoting incest. I'm just saying that for certain circumstances I'm not convinced of societies judgements in this area.

The truth is, normally (usually depends alot on the age of when the step relation began for the child) the dynamics for Step-parent/child relations can be VERY different from the biological dynamics because there can be a significant lack of emotional bonding, misdirected resentments, varyances with age groups, and any number of different factors involved. So I'm sorry, I remain dubious as to the judgement of right or wrong on this issue (the issue that I am talking about ONLY involving consenting adults!)

All I really know is that for me it would be wrong. I could not in good concience be as judgemental about anyone elses situation that I have no clue.

[unum60]

I was trying to be very careful with my language in order not to be judgemental -- in fact it was in the first person i.e. "I"

There are of course circumstances that we all find ourselves in. These circumstances are non-typical, hence modern language has yet to develop "common usuage" vocabulary which allows for certain understanding of what we are trying communicate. I beleive firmly, that "doing no harm" is prudent for my exploration of these complex feelings that WE have.

I enjoy this exchange and I am not responding from an adversarial platform.

Jason

[glantern954]

Step-parent/child relations can be VERY different from the biological dynamics because there can be a significant lack of emotional bonding

I don't see this as a reason for sexual gratification with them to be okay, if anything I see the contrary. In this scenario, would the biological parent be aware of the "relationship" between the other two? I imagine probably not. Still sounds creepy and a violation of trust.

Actually, I can't follow this thread anymore. It is too much.

[csrakate]

I have avoided commenting on this thread for some time now but after reading some of the responses I just have to have to add my :2cents: . It is simply unbelievable to me that someone would put sexual gratification ahead of the well being of others. There is no fine line between step parent and real parent...the minute you take on that parental role you have become a figure of trust and guidance and to blur that in any shape or form is reprehensible! And as for the young man who claims to have done it with his father, his mother and his siblings, I don't really feel this is a serious post, but if it is, I implore you to seek therapy NOW! You may want to consider a call to your local District Attorney as well!

Please...do we really need threads such as this one??? Doesn't the bisexual community have enough issues with public perception without further compounding it with suggestions that a bisexual will possibly seek sex with a family member to gratify an urge because it is convenient??

Enough said...I feel better now!

Kate

[Avocado]

I don't see this as a reason for sexual gratification with them to be okay, if anything I see the contrary. In this scenario, would the biological parent be aware of the "relationship" between the other two? I imagine probably not. Still sounds creepy and a violation of trust.

Actually, I can't follow this thread anymore. It is too much.

I don't care if they're biologically related or not I have no right to poke my nose in and tell 2 consenting adults what they can and cannot do. Why is it that whenever someone doesn't agree with something it's sexual gratification? To a homophobe a marriage is a loving, supporting, relationship and with 2 men it's sexual gratification, a great spin to put on it to paint anyone you don't agree with as perverts. How the fuck is a relationship a violation of trust? I don't have a combat to your argument since you don't actually have one.

[Avocado]

I have avoided commenting on this thread for some time now but after reading some of the responses I just have to have to add my :2cents: . It is simply unbelievable to me that someone would put sexual gratification ahead of the well being of others. There is no fine line between step parent and real parent...the minute you take on that parental role you have become a figure of trust and guidance and to blur that in any shape or form is reprehensible! And as for the young man who claims to have done it with his father, his mother and his siblings, I don't really feel this is a serious post, but if it is, I implore you to seek therapy NOW! You may want to consider a call to your local District Attorney as well!

Please...do we really need threads such as this one??? Doesn't the bisexual community have enough issues with public perception without further compounding it with suggestions that a bisexual will possibly seek sex with a family member to gratify an urge because it is convenient??

Enough said...I feel better now!

Kate

You're not listening. I don't think anyone here is saying that they seek sexual relations with a family member. All people here are saying is that we have no right to impose our beliefs on others through force - just as homophobes have no right to impose theirs on us in the same way. That you don't take seriously somebodys post because what they say contradicts your stereotypes speaks wonders about you.

[csrakate]

You're not listening. I don't think anyone here is saying that they seek sexual relations with a family member. All people here are saying is that we have no right to impose our beliefs on others through force - just as homophobes have no right to impose theirs on us in the same way. That you don't take seriously somebodys post because what they say contradicts your stereotypes speaks wonders about you.

I believe the original question asked, and I quote: "who would you draw the line in having bi sex with. Would you ever consider step family as viable (step son/step daughters)" So yeah...the question raised was whether anyone would do it and you say we have no right to say who can have sex with who...BUT WE'RE talking sons and daughters here and it does NOT matter whether they are step or not! If you want to make judgements about me as a result of my feelings in this regard, so be it.

Dayammmm...OK...I said I had said enough....I said I was done with this thread...so please excuse me while I bite a giant hole in my tongue from holding it!!!!!

[sweetgagirl]

I don't think Kate is making assumptions. I believe she is just stating her opinion, which if you look at every other thread...so is everyone else. I think if she feels that someone putting that they have sex with thier mom, dad, etc is not real, let her free to say it. I am with her on this though, it just seems to be a young person trying to be funny. As we all know, this is way to serious a thread to be playing like that. You don't play about incest and yes my opinion is that if it is your "step" son or daughter, it is still incest and it is wrong. Here in the US we have always made fun of other states for having rumored of "incest being the best" mentality. But this is far more serious than we have taken it before apparently. I was raised in a family that if a family member touches you or tries to touch you, tell someone. I don't care if they are not blood or are blood relatives, it is just wrong. I am happy to report that I raise my children the same way.

[Solomon]

I have avoided commenting on this thread for some time now but after reading some of the responses I just have to have to add my :2cents: . It is simply unbelievable to me that someone would put sexual gratification ahead of the well being of others. There is no fine line between step parent and real parent...the minute you take on that parental role you have become a figure of trust and guidance and to blur that in any shape or form is reprehensible! And as for the young man who claims to have done it with his father, his mother and his siblings, I don't really feel this is a serious post, but if it is, I implore you to seek therapy NOW! You may want to consider a call to your local District Attorney as well!

Please...do we really need threads such as this one??? Doesn't the bisexual community have enough issues with public perception without further compounding it with suggestions that a bisexual will possibly seek sex with a family member to gratify an urge because it is convenient??

Enough said...I feel better now!

Kate



Excuse the crap out of me, but quite frankly there's a BIG line between being a step parent, and a biological parent!

And when exactly did I become this figure of trust and guidance to the kids in their eyes???

As I recall, quite frankly the kids really didn't give a rip about anything that I had to say in the way of this supposed guidance, and they sure as hell weren't all that trusting towards anyone, MOST of all me!

Maybe I just happened to be an exception... except when I have talked with PROFESSIONAL counsellors in the past while dealing with all this craziness, they have ALL assured me that my case was NO exception until you get to the five kids and one severely affected with autism.

As I said, I'm NOT promoting, I'm also NOT convinced of society's judgments on this issue either!

I do however whole-heartily agree that this issue really has NOTHING to do with being bisexual!

[Solomon]

I was trying to be very careful with my language in order not to be judgemental -- in fact it was in the first person i.e. "I"

There are of course circumstances that we all find ourselves in. These circumstances are non-typical, hence modern language has yet to develop "common usuage" vocabulary which allows for certain understanding of what we are trying communicate. I beleive firmly, that "doing no harm" is prudent for my exploration of these complex feelings that WE have.

I enjoy this exchange and I am not responding from an adversarial platform.

Jason


I agree, I love the exchange about the issues too. And I don't mean to be offensive to anyone and apologize if I seem that way.

I'm not however, above defending myself when necessary.

[deremarc]

I think blood relations having sex using to happen a long time ago...thank god we have evolved. I do believe that it became wrong due to the possibility of bad genes mixing with the same bad genes and ending up with kids with problems...and then became socially taboo and wrong.

I know you're not supposed to say something is "just wrong" because it "just is". But, honestly, this whole talk of sex with family members to me brings up a huge sick feeling inside...to me it is wrong (just like sex with kids is wrong).

Step issues don't have the same blood ties...and so it is not wrong in the same way. But, saying that just because you happen to be their stepparent doesn't make you a person of trust or someone they look up to or depend on is-(okay, I am going to just say it)...ridiculous. Of course you are. Don't take on kids in your life if you are not prepared for that role. It may be unspoken (just like the monogamy issue that is discussed so much here) but I think unless it's spoken otherwise it is still there.

Try marrying or dating a mother and telling her..."hey, I love you, but if I want to fuck your daughter or your son I will if they want to too and I don't see anything wrong with it" and see how long it takes her to slam the door in your face!

It is a violation of trust between everyone involved. And, yes, I think it is wrong to screw your mother's husband, or your sisters, or your best friends, or your daughter's--anyone that you are in a relationship with (and whether that relationship is good or bad). You also face the possibility of tearing the fabric of the family apart. Maybe it is already torn, but why rip it to shreds?

Morally is it wrong? I guess it depends on your morals. By society's morals? Yes. Because of the relationship, because of the trust and the responsibility to other people (not just the person you would have sex with, but the other people who would be affected.)

I know not everyone feels the same way, but I don't think that sex should just be about anyone that has a hole you can stick it in-or anyone that you can get to stick it in you. But, I also realize that some people live their life this way-sacrifice any and everything for sex.

And, one last thing...I am not bisexual, but I was offended--to the comment that someone finds the moral outrage on this site laughable-what the hell does that mean? That if you are bisexual, you have no morals, you are not able to see things as wrong? That is bullshit. Bisexuality, as I see it, is about which gender turns you on or which one you want a romantic relationship with. It does not mean you have no morals, no standards...that just made me angry. Who you are as a person (gender preferences aside) is what might preclude you from displaying moral outrage over something.

And to the person who said there are too many people out there for you to have to resort to family...applause!!! There are. Why dirty your own backyard? Go find it somewhere else-no matter how hot they may make you.

I am not trying to impose my morals on you. This thread asked for opinions-and this is mine.

[Solomon]

I think blood relations having sex using to happen a long time ago...thank god we have evolved. I do believe that it became wrong due to the possibility of bad genes mixing with the same bad genes and ending up with kids with problems...and then became socially taboo and wrong.

I know you're not supposed to say something is "just wrong" because it "just is". But, honestly, this whole talk of sex with family members to me brings up a huge sick feeling inside...to me it is wrong (just like sex with kids is wrong).

Step issues don't have the same blood ties...and so it is not wrong in the same way. But, saying that just because you happen to be their stepparent doesn't make you a person of trust or someone they look up to or depend on is-(okay, I am going to just say it)...ridiculous. Of course you are. Don't take on kids in your life if you are not prepared for that role. It may be unspoken (just like the monogamy issue that is discussed so much here) but I think unless it's spoken otherwise it is still there.

Try marrying or dating a mother and telling her..."hey, I love you, but if I want to fuck your daughter or your son I will if they want to too and I don't see anything wrong with it" and see how long it takes her to slam the door in your face!

It is a violation of trust between everyone involved. And, yes, I think it is wrong to screw your mother's husband, or your sisters, or your best friends, or your daughter's--anyone that you are in a relationship with (and whether that relationship is good or bad). You also face the possibility of tearing the fabric of the family apart. Maybe it is already torn, but why rip it to shreds?

Morally is it wrong? I guess it depends on your morals. By society's morals? Yes. Because of the relationship, because of the trust and the responsibility to other people (not just the person you would have sex with, but the other people who would be affected.)

I know not everyone feels the same way, but I don't think that sex should just be about anyone that has a hole you can stick it in-or anyone that you can get to stick it in you. But, I also realize that some people live their life this way-sacrifice any and everything for sex.

And, one last thing...I am not bisexual, but I was offended--to the comment that someone finds the moral outrage on this site laughable-what the hell does that mean? That if you are bisexual, you have no morals, you are not able to see things as wrong? That is bullshit. Bisexuality, as I see it, is about which gender turns you on or which one you want a romantic relationship with. It does not mean you have no morals, no standards...that just made me angry. Who you are as a person (gender preferences aside) is what might preclude you from displaying moral outrage over something.

And to the person who said there are too many people out there for you to have to resort to family...applause!!! There are. Why dirty your own backyard? Go find it somewhere else-no matter how hot they may make you.

I am not trying to impose my morals on you. This thread asked for opinions-and this is mine.

I'm sure that it's very easy to ASSUME that a stepparent has somehow attained this position of trust and guidance IN THE EYES OF THE KIDS unless you actually decide to become a step parent. I NEVER said that I didn't accept the role regardless of how they see me. I did. I do. I'd do it again.

I was NOT depraved, or victimized, or ANY of that other STUFF ya'll are attributing to my experience with my cousin. I certainly am not the kind of person to just stick it in any hole I can find, or get anyone to stick it in my hole.

Now for the umpteenth time I am NOT promoting incest, I'm also NOT convinced of society's judgement of it. That's my opinion.

And if incest truly leads to kids with problems, then the royal families have much to explain.

If you feel you need to continue to believe those things about me personally then go right ahead, as I've posted before I'm really not looking to fight the world, so go right ahead and keep your ignorance.

[flexuality]

Step issues don't have the same blood ties...and so it is not wrong in the same way. But, saying that just because you happen to be their stepparent doesn't make you a person of trust or someone they look up to or depend on is-(okay, I am going to just say it)...ridiculous. Of course you are. Don't take on kids in your life if you are not prepared for that role. It may be unspoken (just like the monogamy issue that is discussed so much here) but I think unless it's spoken otherwise it is still there.

Try marrying or dating a mother and telling her..."hey, I love you, but if I want to fuck your daughter or your son I will if they want to too and I don't see anything wrong with it" and see how long it takes her to slam the door in your face!

It is a violation of trust between everyone involved. And, yes, I think it is wrong to screw your mother's husband, or your sisters, or your best friends, or your daughter's--anyone that you are in a relationship with (and whether that relationship is good or bad). You also face the possibility of tearing the fabric of the family apart. Maybe it is already torn, but why rip it to shreds?

Morally is it wrong? I guess it depends on your morals. By society's morals? Yes. Because of the relationship, because of the trust and the responsibility to other people (not just the person you would have sex with, but the other people who would be affected.)

I know not everyone feels the same way, but I don't think that sex should just be about anyone that has a hole you can stick it in-or anyone that you can get to stick it in you. But, I also realize that some people live their life this way-sacrifice any and everything for sex.


I am not trying to impose my morals on you. This thread asked for opinions-and this is mine.


Actually I think you ARE trying to impose your morals, and for the situation you are "thinking" of, you may have a point.

HOWEVER let me say a couple of things here.

The five kids Sol is referring to are MY kids. If he would have touched any one of them I would have fucking killed him. Are we clear on that? :)

That is NOT THE ISSUE.

He is absolutely accurate when he says that he was and is fully prepared to take on a "parent" type of role. The truth is that it is extremely common for kids to NOT WANT a step parent to take on that kind of role.

My kids were young teens when Sol and I got married. They were resentful of a lot of people at the time. Me, their biological dad, Sol as well. This is NORMAL for kids from a divorce situation.

Yes, my kids are attractive. I would be kind of surprised if Sol DIDN'T think they were. But that has NOTHING to do with anything. And again, it is NORMAL.

It just so happens that both Sol and I have had incest in our past. That in NO WAY implies that either of us thinks it is just fine and dandy to fuck the kids! Geeeeeesh!

You say "Try marrying or dating a mother and telling her..."hey, I love you, but if I want to fuck your daughter or your son I will if they want to too and I don't see anything wrong with it" and see how long it takes her to slam the door in your face!"

I can assure you that that did NOT happen and further it is NOT what either one of us is trying to say here. And yes, I would have slammed the door in his face if he had done that. That is ABUSE.

Which was what I was trying to point out in an ealier post.

I think that a lot of people have their heads so full of prejudgement that they can no longer hear.

I, too, find it amazing that we have been JUDGED to be deviant and somehow wanting to just "stick it anywhere we bloody well feel like" simply because we DARED to say that we have both actually ENJOYED incest within a particular set of circumstances.

Good God! That does NOT mean that we think ALL incest is just hunky-dory!

And to say that we would "sacrifice any and everything for sex." is simply showing that you have no idea about who we are and what we believe.

That is your loss.

[NorthBiEast]

I think it can be agreed on that in any instance, introducing new members into a family system is challenging and daunting for all involved. The age, gender and roles of those people doesn't make is any easier.

Adding sex into any relationship, at any age, changes the dynamic. In a family, the goals are usually the betterment of ALL family members. In my mind, throwing sex into the equation is not good for the entire family, therefore not acceptable. :2cents:

[flexuality]

I think it can be agreed on that in any instance, introducing new members into a family system is challenging and daunting for all involved. The age, gender and roles of those people doesn't make is any easier.

I agree absolutely! It is a tough thing no matter what the circumstances.


Adding sex into any relationship, at any age, changes the dynamic. In a family, the goals are usually the betterment of ALL family members. In my mind, throwing sex into the equation is not good for the entire family, therefore not acceptable. :2cents:

I agree with you here as well. The key words being ALL and entire.

It's really bothering me that Sol and I seem to have been greatly misunderstood in this thread.

I have had to come to terms with some of the abuse in my life that happens to have been incestuous as well. A lot of it would have been abusive even if it wasn't incestuous.

Abusive incest is not about sex as such. It is the emotional aspect that is far more damaging.

It was fairly easy for me to hate my uncle for what he did to me at 3.

But I tell ya, it is damn near impossible to hate my mom for what she did to me.

With my uncle, I could hate him and hate the act.

With my mom I could hate the act, but I couldn't seem to hate her. That has got to be the worst emotional nightmare I have ever had to deal with. As a child, your mom is GOD. She is everything. She is your only safety in the world. She is the one you love. And to have her violate that.....it's one hell of a thing to try to wrap your head around...I still struggle with it sometimes.

Exposure to that kind of thing where love and acceptance become confused with sexual acts tends to set one up to associate love and acceptance with sexual acts. Thus the experience with my cousin.

My cousin and I were the same age. There was no power dynamic involved. We were not in any way cheating on anyone or affecting any other family members. I felt loved and accepted by my cousin and at some level I associated sex with it. And let's face it, biologically speaking sexual activity feels good. Emotionally, the love and acceptance feels good.

Whether it was "right" or "wrong" really only applies from a very objective perspective. My feelings were not "wrong" - they just "were."

The thing that was "wrong", or maybe a better word would be distorted, was the association made between love and sex. What happened between me and my cousin could just as easily have happened with a friend instead. It was rather a fluke that it was my cousin. But to attack the fact that we were related and ignore the other aspects is to invalidate my feelings.

If I had talked about this experience and left out the fact that she was my cousin, no one would have given it a second thought.

This is a very vulnerable part of my life that I thought would be ok to talk about here with so many people dealing with society's judgements about bisexuality, so I am a bit surpised (and defensive I suppose) that a lot of people are missing the point that Sol and I are trying to make.

We, too, are talking about society's judgements that label all incest as abuse - the same society that tends to label all bisexuals as non-monogamous cheaters who will do it with anyone.

I do not think that cousin/cousin presents the same dynamic as parent/child.

Maybe I'm just bashing my head against the wall here. I suppose it's not really possible to understand this unless one has been through it. And maybe that's ok too.

Kind of like trying to explain what a banana tastes like to someone who's never eaten a banana. Or trying to explain bisexuality to someone who's never even heard of it!

Anyhow, I do apologize if I have stepped on any toes. :( It was not my intention to do so.

On the plus side, it has helped me to write about these things.

[Solomon]

I think it can be agreed on that in any instance, introducing new members into a family system is challenging and daunting for all involved. The age, gender and roles of those people doesn't make is any easier.

Adding sex into any relationship, at any age, changes the dynamic. In a family, the goals are usually the betterment of ALL family members. In my mind, throwing sex into the equation is not good for the entire family, therefore not acceptable. :2cents:

That has certainly been my personal experience. That is the responsibility that I've accepted, and lived, and still live with happily.

Am ONLY arguing that I'm not for making that judgement on anyone else.

[NorthBiEast]

I agree absolutely! It is a tough thing no matter what the circumstances.



I agree with you here as well. The key words being ALL and entire.

It's really bothering me that Sol and I seem to have been greatly misunderstood in this thread.

I have had to come to terms with some of the abuse in my life that happens to have been incestuous as well. A lot of it would have been abusive even if it wasn't incestuous.

Abusive incest is not about sex as such. It is the emotional aspect that is far more damaging.

It was fairly easy for me to hate my uncle for what he did to me at 3.

But I tell ya, it is damn near impossible to hate my mom for what she did to me.

With my uncle, I could hate him and hate the act.

With my mom I could hate the act, but I couldn't seem to hate her. That has got to be the worst emotional nightmare I have ever had to deal with. As a child, your mom is GOD. She is everything. She is your only safety in the world. She is the one you love. And to have her violate that.....it's one hell of a thing to try to wrap your head around...I still struggle with it sometimes.

Exposure to that kind of thing where love and acceptance become confused with sexual acts tends to set one up to associate love and acceptance with sexual acts. Thus the experience with my cousin.

My cousin and I were the same age. There was no power dynamic involved. We were not in any way cheating on anyone or affecting any other family members. I felt loved and accepted by my cousin and at some level I associated sex with it. And let's face it, biologically speaking sexual activity feels good. Emotionally, the love and acceptance feels good.

Whether it was "right" or "wrong" really only applies from a very objective perspective. My feelings were not "wrong" - they just "were."

The thing that was "wrong", or maybe a better word would be distorted, was the association made between love and sex. What happened between me and my cousin could just as easily have happened with a friend instead. It was rather a fluke that it was my cousin. But to attack the fact that we were related and ignore the other aspects is to invalidate my feelings.

If I had talked about this experience and left out the fact that she was my cousin, no one would have given it a second thought.

This is a very vulnerable part of my life that I thought would be ok to talk about here with so many people dealing with society's judgements about bisexuality, so I am a bit surpised (and defensive I suppose) that a lot of people are missing the point that Sol and I are trying to make.

We, too, are talking about society's judgements that label all incest as abuse - the same society that tends to label all bisexuals as non-monogamous cheaters who will do it with anyone.

I do not think that cousin/cousin presents the same dynamic as parent/child.

Maybe I'm just bashing my head against the wall here. I suppose it's not really possible to understand this unless one has been through it. And maybe that's ok too.

Kind of like trying to explain what a banana tastes like to someone who's never eaten a banana. Or trying to explain bisexuality to someone who's never even heard of it!

Anyhow, I do apologize if I have stepped on any toes. :( It was not my intention to do so.

On the plus side, it has helped me to write about these things.

I don't think I've seen anyone bashing you for your experience (unless some jerk PMed you). I appreciate that you were willing to share that aspect of your life. :grouphug:

As you stated, when there was a dysfunctional relationship, you were hurt, and that is NOT ok, ever. When it was just two kids fooling around, that was different, and you didn't seem to be hurt than you might have been by any girlfriend/boyfriend.

I think that being with one's same age cousin is a very different matter from the initial post, which boils down to how we define family. There seems to be consensus (or close to it) that immediate family is off limits. The debate is in whether "steps" count as immediate family or not.
:yinyang:

[Solomon]

Excuse my interruption.

I never said that steps don't count as immediate family.

I did try to communicate that the steps relationship is normally very different from the way most people expect immediate family relationships to work.

And for those who believe that it's a situation of "just happen to be a stepfather" I found that it was a damned hard hurt, hard earned "just happen to be a stepfather"

However, there also have been alot of rewards. Those too are very different from what normal biological parents experience.

As far as being bashed, I think frankly I was being equated as someone who just lusts after the kiddies, and would fuck anything that moves and I find that extremely offensive, because that NOT what I said, and I made every attempt to avoid giving that impression!

I do happen to expect better from a community that smarts from those same accusations!

[Avocado]

Right, I'm going to put forward a few points and ask the group if they agree with them:

1) "Homosexuality" is wrong.

2) Society needs to be protected from it, and even when it's between two adults, one of them is brainwashed into thinking they're not straight. We need to ban spongebob squarepants etc.

3) If you're bi there's enough members of the opposite sex out there so there's no need to say yes to a member of the same sex.

4) Acts such as cheating etc cause no hurt and do no emotional damage but if they do, they shouldn't be outlawed but all incestual acts should be. Don't ask me why, they just should.

5) A relationship between members of the opposite sex is about love, but a same-sex relationship is about sexual gratification and bis basically just want to find any hole to stick their thing in no matter what is sacrificed in doing so.

6) We need to criminalise all acts which may be seen as a position of trust. This means that my fiancee should be banged up for getting together with me just after she was my helper at uni (I'm disabled and have writing difficulties). She should also be banged up for having been with me when she was my notetaker.

7) Any relationship that, should the couple have kids, those kids may end up with faulty genes, should be outlawed. If autism can be passed on, I should be outlawed from being with anyone.

8) Any position of dependency should make a relationship illegal. When I couldn't get a job, the fact my fiancee had a mortgage and I was depending on her putting me up, means our relationship should have been illegal then as well.

[trip1]

Right, I'm going to put forward a few points and ask the group if they agree with them:

1) "Homosexuality" is wrong.

2) Society needs to be protected from it, and even when it's between two adults, one of them is brainwashed into thinking they're not straight. We need to ban spongebob squarepants etc.

3) If you're bi there's enough members of the opposite sex out there so there's no need to say yes to a member of the same sex.

4) Acts such as cheating etc cause no hurt and do no emotional damage but if they do, they shouldn't be outlawed but all incestual acts should be. Don't ask me why, they just should.

5) A relationship between members of the opposite sex is about love, but a same-sex relationship is about sexual gratification and bis basically just want to find any hole to stick their thing in no matter what is sacrificed in doing so.

6) We need to criminalise all acts which may be seen as a position of trust. This means that my fiancee should be banged up for getting together with me just after she was my helper at uni (I'm disabled and have writing difficulties). She should also be banged up for having been with me when she was my notetaker.

7) Any relationship that, should the couple have kids, those kids may end up with faulty genes, should be outlawed. If autism can be passed on, I should be outlawed from being with anyone.

8) Any position of dependency should make a relationship illegal. When I couldn't get a job, the fact my fiancee had a mortgage and I was depending on her putting me up, means our relationship should have been illegal then as well.

Hmm

question 1. no

2.no even if spongebob isn't on my watch list.

3. I'd say yes to either m or f. It depends on the person.

4. Cheating does cause hurt in my eye's. Incest? Look back in history at the Royal Family.

5. people can be in it for sexual gratification no matter what sex they are dealing with or in it for love. Sometimes it starts out foe only sexual gratification and turns into love as well.

6. As long as it's between consenting adults thats fine.

7. No

8. No Having a stay at home partener should be illegal? No...

[lookn0ver]

Anything can happen ...and does. there are times and again you are not in control of a given situation and for whatever reason ''IT" happens.
would you just give back a bag of stolen bank loot if it were untraceable ? would you tell everyone in the world you just saw a UFO if it meant you'd be in line for a first class ticket to the rubber room?? would you would you would you??? i see it like this'' BOTH WAYS'' and that is prolly where this question was going all along. life has a way of throwing curve balls when you least expect them. some people just have the knack for falling into these bazaar kamikaze plots meant only for a chosen few and the jealous ones will wonder (won't they?) why it can't happen to them and still the news is full of people who thought they could twist fate into their own image...sigh!, and on and on it goes. everything is in the eye of the beholder and in the eye of the other beholder... and what all the other beholders don't know won't hurt them! :cool:

[LoveLion]

Ok, it boils down to this:

There are different kinds of love people need. Romantic love of another is one and the love of your family is another. Romantic love is compatible with sex, but family love just isnt. If you make a famliy relationship a sexual one than it betrays the "family love" and you and the other person lose out on something you both need.

I feel strongly about this next point so I might offend someone, but thats the way it is. Any parent who has sex with their son/daughter (even if the child is consenting and/or is of age) is betraying and abusing the son/daughter. As a parent you have a HUGE place in your son/daughter life and you have a vital role to play in your son/daughter and that role is in no way, shape or form, about "satisfying his/her sexual needs". If you think that is part of your role then you are lying to yourself and you son/daughter. And dont try to say you are doing it only for them, cuz that is bullshit and you know it. It is wrong and you are harming your son/daughter.

When it comes to brothers/sisters the same thing applies, but maybe not to as strongly as a degree. You need to be there for your family and you need to be there to love and support, not to have sex with.

If you have fantasies, thats fine. Enjoy them by yourself. No one is getting harmed. But acting on them is harmful, even if it doesnt seem it.

[darkeyes]

btw, i'm not only a step-father, but i've also enjoyed incest, in fact it was with my cousin that became my first gay act as well as my first sexual experience at all.

in short, i believe i was a bit more screwed up when i was told about how wrong that was. so i'm NOT convinced that incest is wrong in principle.

sex with children who're not emotionally or physically developed to handle it is wrong.

having sex with someone who is in a position of dependancy on you would certainly have POTENTIAL for abuse (although tell that to the women in history who were forced some agreeabley forced to depend on a husband for money and the consequences of money).

but i'm not convinced that family sexual relations are in principle wrong.


Just for info Solomon in the UK sex between cousins is not considered incest and therefore not proscribed by law. As freedom loving people who have been historically abused and humiliated over the centuries, and considered wrong in the eyes of church and state, I think we should begin to seriously consider just what our attitudes are to incest and have a real debate on the issue. However I am not sure that most of us are prepared or ready yet to have a mature discussion on it. Maybe the taboo is so strong that we never shall.

Personally, I believe that such are the issues inherent in relaxing our attitudes too much, real dangers exist in particular for children within the family. Enough abuse of children goes on now and I think we would be opening a whole new can of worms were we to go too far down that road. But then have not those arguments been made about gay and bisexual adoption? And still are being made. My gut feeling is that sex with mum or dad or brother or sister is wrong. How much of that is the conditioning my life has given me? How much instinct? I cant say.

Like with steps, siblings do fall in love, though I have been spared that agony, and it must be awful for them for literally no community will ever accept them. Where this happens between parent and child, is this true emotion or is it a result of abuse and the moulding of the child to the parents will? In most cases almost certainly but if this occurs in adulthood? Does it? I dont know. There are so many questions.

However such is the level of child abuse within the family Im not sure its wise we just ignore it and let it go away. If for no other reason than for them somehow we must think more deeply about the issue.

This thread at least broaches the subject but in the end I doubt it shall change attitudes very much within our community, but it is useful in that maybe we should think about a group of people who even more than we, are considered anathema and real outcasts in our society, and even should we never accept incest as a principle, we can at least try and understand, for are we not in just the same boat in so many ways?

If nothing else has come out of it the thread, it has at least began to make me think seriously about the whole issue.

[meteast chick]

Being a step daughter and a step sister and having a step dad, a step mom, a step sister and a step brother makes me say, in response to if I would ever consider sexual relations with them..."Excuse me I need to run to the loo to viably empty out whatever I had for dinner"

Cousins are gray area. In America only 1st cousins are technically off limits but most people still sort of frown upon any relation whatsoever, at least in civilized society.

The fact that my 1st cousin propositioned my sister, to which she said "HELL NO!", makes me think that while most southern towns are civilized, it's the people within them that makes that determination, and that includes my so called northern society.

That's all.
luv and kisses, as always,
xoxoxoxoxoxo
meteast

[Solomon]

Darkeyes,

I just have to say that I agree with your post 100%, and for most families it's not an issue whether that's because of instinct or whatever who knows I guess I'm just sort of grateful that it is.

I think personally I'm just very emotionally involved with this because I've allowed societal influence to destroy a deep friendship with me cousin and I deeply regret it now.

Maybe it was meant to be, but that doesn't stop me from missing him.

As far as the steps thing goes, I think for most people, and yes my immediate family, also that it just doesn't feel right again for whatever reason, but I have come across many instances of other families where that's not the case.

Maybe I just don't want them to have it shoved down their throats that they need to make the same mistakes that I have with my cousin.

As far as the abuse thing goes, I totally agree that it's high time to clarify the issue and to talk about what is it really?

Thank you for putting it so eloquently. :cool: :cool:

[bigdreams3250]

The answer to a question is personal, so therefore the question is inanimate but could well stir up emotions which are unwelcome.

According to the 'Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy' the answer was '42'.

In my daughters world the answer is 'Chocolate' and who gives a stuff about the question.

A question is merely a tool to obtain a reaction, be it an answer, agression, surprise and so on. In this instance the answer would appear to be NO in the majority of cases, but all answers are governed by circumstance, therefore it could be YES.

To finalise this flippant little reply the answer was '42' and the question to the best of my recollection is; 'What is the answer to life, the universe and everything.'

:2cents:

[darkeyes]

The answer to a question is personal, so therefore the question is inanimate but could well stir up emotions which are unwelcome.

According to the 'Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy' the answer was '42'.

In my daughters world the answer is 'Chocolate' and who gives a stuff about the question.

A question is merely a tool to obtain a reaction, be it an answer, agression, surprise and so on. In this instance the answer would appear to be NO in the majority of cases, but all answers are governed by circumstance, therefore it could be YES.

To finalise this flippant little reply the answer was '42' and the question to the best of my recollection is; 'What is the answer to life, the universe and everything.'

:2cents:

And the problem like with so many problems is that the question hence the answer was wrong, or were they both right? Who knows what was in Douglas Adams mind. The question was if my memory serves me correctly was 9x6. I am not trying to be flippant here but are we, is society asking the right questions?

[Avocado]

Ok, it boils down to this:

There are different kinds of love people need. Romantic love of another is one and the love of your family is another. Romantic love is compatible with sex, but family love just isnt. If you make a famliy relationship a sexual one than it betrays the "family love" and you and the other person lose out on something you both need.

I feel strongly about this next point so I might offend someone, but thats the way it is. Any parent who has sex with their son/daughter (even if the child is consenting and/or is of age) is betraying and abusing the son/daughter. As a parent you have a HUGE place in your son/daughter life and you have a vital role to play in your son/daughter and that role is in no way, shape or form, about "satisfying his/her sexual needs". If you think that is part of your role then you are lying to yourself and you son/daughter. And dont try to say you are doing it only for them, cuz that is bullshit and you know it. It is wrong and you are harming your son/daughter.

When it comes to brothers/sisters the same thing applies, but maybe not to as strongly as a degree. You need to be there for your family and you need to be there to love and support, not to have sex with.

If you have fantasies, thats fine. Enjoy them by yourself. No one is getting harmed. But acting on them is harmful, even if it doesnt seem it.

You sound no different to a Christian fundamentalist talking about queers.

[Solomon]

Ok, it boils down to this:

There are different kinds of love people need. Romantic love of another is one and the love of your family is another. Romantic love is compatible with sex, but family love just isnt. If you make a famliy relationship a sexual one than it betrays the "family love" and you and the other person lose out on something you both need.

I feel strongly about this next point so I might offend someone, but thats the way it is. Any parent who has sex with their son/daughter (even if the child is consenting and/or is of age) is betraying and abusing the son/daughter. As a parent you have a HUGE place in your son/daughter life and you have a vital role to play in your son/daughter and that role is in no way, shape or form, about "satisfying his/her sexual needs". If you think that is part of your role then you are lying to yourself and you son/daughter. And dont try to say you are doing it only for them, cuz that is bullshit and you know it. It is wrong and you are harming your son/daughter.

When it comes to brothers/sisters the same thing applies, but maybe not to as strongly as a degree. You need to be there for your family and you need to be there to love and support, not to have sex with.

If you have fantasies, thats fine. Enjoy them by yourself. No one is getting harmed. But acting on them is harmful, even if it doesnt seem it.

Your signature says "nothing is black and white", and yet your post is certainly full of some fairly black and white statements.

You're entitled to your opinion, but I believe that your arguments are limiting the capacity of people to love not to mention attempting to judge every situation and family according to your own.

[jaglvr]

A sexual relationship with an immediate family member is not acceptable because it is psychologically dangerous. Particularly if it is a parent child relationship, there would be a great deal of distortion and trauma probably on both parts. This would be true regardless of wether it was a step relative or not. The older the participants are the less dangerous it would be. By the time you are a mature and consenting adult there is no reason to think it an especially taboo thing to do other than the obvious violation of trust with the other parent. But that would be akin to commonplace infidelity in essence. I think what most of you are horrified by is abuse and pedophilia. Incest is not necessarily either of those things. Were I to marry a woman who had an adult daughter I would be that daughters step father. However I would not be raising her nor would I be filling a parental role so if a relationship developed, though inappropriate in respect to infidelity, it would not be in respect to incest. Could this be extended to biological relatives? Certainly. Though I imagine there are significant psychological consequences, for most anyway, because of much firmer role establishment it would nonetheless be consenting adults. The problem with incest is not proximity of blood lines but the established realtionship. It could be just as consequential if it were your cousin if, for instance, you were raising your cousin. It could be someone you are not related to at all but if there is a parent-child relationship established then sexual acts will be traumatic.

[glantern954]

You sound no different to a Christian fundamentalist talking about queers.

Ask a licensed professional what they think, the sooner the better.

[Long Duck Dong]

I was gonna shut up, but lol as a counsellor with 20 years experience in the field of sexual and sexual abuse, I felt inclined to speak up lol

incest is a clear cut definition of inter family relations..it sets out the lines of mother / father / daughter / son.... where the lines become blurred is our understanding of the definition

sexual relations with a person that is closely related enuf so that their marriage is illegal or forbidden by custom, is the main definition of incest
HOWEVER, in some countries, incest is only a word, and inter family relations are classed as acceptable

the terming of incest via marriage, is a legal term, it would make the new parent the * step parent *..however it doesn't apply that to the emotional and mental make up of the family... we only believe that it does, and the legal ruling don't not require a step parent to walk into the role of a * parent *, hence a step parent and a person over the legal age of consent are not restricted in the ways of a relationship, only marriage would be affected by a legal standing

in my family, I term my step father to be more of a father than my own father, however, I am adopted....both my biological parents are dead, and so my * father * is my adopted father, and my step father is my adopted step father *

now my adopted sister, skye ( whom i lost to aids last year ) had a relationship bordering on incest, we were never sexually intimate...but the bond we shared was so close that it bordered on true love.... she was in fact my adopted sister........under the guidelines and terms of counseling, if the fact had ever come out, I would have been disbarred and banned for life, from any counselor work
the reason is that the relationship was deemed as inappropriate for a person in a situation of counseling

we were often thought of as lovers, such was our interactions....but we are two people that bonded very well........it was society that had the issue with our actions......and as i said, it was totally non sexual.....

I know of a couple that are step brother and step sister and in a relationship that is long term....they are both over the legal age and well into their 20's and legally they can't be touched, however they are often asked to attend counseling..... now what what point are they in need of counseling and therapy... they are perfectly normal adults, their choice of relationship is something that society doesn't agree with, but they are not hurting any people... and therefore counseling is not a viable option nor a need for them, unless we try to imply that any relationship that society deems as unfit, would require that the people get counseling... and that being the case, all bisexuals and polygamous people would need counseling

[glantern954]

I can appreciate the idea that someone can always present an example that is an exception to any rule. Yes, step-brother and step-sister are not the same level of twisted as step-parent and step-child. With that said though, even Jeffrey Dahmer could have tried to justify his philosphy. I'm still not going to buy it.

Once upon a time, a plane crashed and the survivors ate humans to survive. Let's legalize cannabalism!

[Solomon]

I can appreciate the idea that someone can always present an example that is an exception to any rule. Yes, step-brother and step-sister are not the same level of twisted as step-parent and step-child. With that said though, even Jeffrey Dahmer could have tried to justify his philosphy. I'm still not going to buy it.

Once upon a time, a plane crashed and the survivors ate humans to survive. Let's legalize cannabalism!

LOL!! you're equating this discussion with Jeffrey Dahmer??? Sorry, I just don't remember anyone talking about murder, and hunting people as actual food lol! Although some people can be tasty.... :cool:

You have a point... if what I was talking about was indeed step-parent and step CHILD, then it would be pedophillia and absolutely inappropriate to be polite!

Although quite frankly, I have counselled with licensed professionals, apparently Long Duck Dong is a licensed professional with ALOT of experience in this specific field. I've read alot of books by licensed professionals and recommended to me by licensed professionals on this subject. Not to mention actually experiencing the step relations first hand for now 7 years and working hand in hand with licensed professionals along the way.

Just how much qualifications did you need?? I could go all the way to the Supreme Court if you like and are willing to foot the bill, problem with that is they too take the advise of licensed professionals, and being that they're just law enforcers.... but hey if it would help! lol!

[glantern954]

LOL!! you're equating this discussion with Jeffrey Dahmer??? Sorry, I just don't remember anyone talking about murder, and hunting people as actual food lol!

That was half the point. Comparing this conversation to cannabilism isn't any more ridiculous than comparing step-sibling to step-parent \ step-child relationships.

I acknowledge that step-sibling relationships can happen and although they are probably not the healthiest of relationships they aren't hurting anyone, except for maybe themselves depending on the circumstances.

I don't ever see myself thinking this is something that should be encouraged. Especially when you consider the other variations of family relationships that other people may think should be ok too.

Apparently LDD is a licensed professional? In that case, l apparently am a member of the SuperFriends.

[Solomon]

glantern954:

I've gotta admit, you are persistant in trying to put it as adult to child sex. Kids do grow up ya know? lol

I don't believe that anyone was talking about encouraging these kinds of relationships. The porn industry makes a big deal of animals, coke bottles, fisting, and all kinds of other things that sell too, so I really don't think that they're too relevant to the subject at hand.

I just refuse to believe that it's wise to condemn other adults including stepparent to stepson or step daughter (of at LEAST legal age of consent) who aren't hurting anyone, for the choices (wise or not) they make in their life.

As far as LDD's licensing or not it's really besides the point, I've had enough interaction in person with people who are licensed and very well respected in their field.

What I do think should be encouraged is talking about it. Isolation and keeping silent are the BIGGEST weapons that abusers have to set traps for themselves.

And maybe you are a member of the Super Friends lol.

[belhelne]

As the one to start all this I do see I have the right feelings that generally it is not what one should consider.

I did have a more then what I would call acceptable incouter with my adult step son. I would not condemn any one of the people that visit this site for the fact that we are living a life that is out side the normal. I do not have a father son relation with my step son and have no power over him. I was aproched by him and I did not see it coming. Being one to even talk of bisexual issues here, he found out and put me in the situation and I being in a confused state did allow something to transpire. It was no contact but still what I would call more then I would normally let happen. So I do apreshate the over all communication and I do feel that once an adult it is their responsabilty at an adult to carry on relationships as such. Were I find it to be wrong is that it does cose problems with the family if it would ever come out and it has a habit of doing that and that is what is not worth the risks of even step children even if they are adult at any age. But so does the cheatin g with any one. I do have bisexual desires but do not want to act on them and cause what I have to be lost in life. It is my choice and my life that I chose to be with some one and that is who I must be faithful to. That shoudl always be the issue.

Thankfully for the Internet and sometimes the sceurge is a release from that which a fantasy. Remember some fantasies are best left as one. Even though I had this happen I still feel it is wrong to have relastions with family for any reasons on purpose. I did not plan this and it did bother me. If I was single having a relationship with a man or a couple would be no problem but I am married and even her son is not some one I should ever have done something with. It was his desires I did not control mine.

Thank you for you input.

[Avocado]

Ask a licensed professional what they think, the sooner the better.

But only one that agrees with you....

[darkeyes]

But only one that agrees with you....

Aint that the truth Avocado u ole cynic!

[flexuality]

As the one to start all this I do see I have the right feelings that generally it is not what one should consider.

I did have a more then what I would call acceptable incouter with my adult step son. I would not condemn any one of the people that visit this site for the fact that we are living a life that is out side the normal. I do not have a father son relation with my step son and have no power over him. I was aproched by him and I did not see it coming. Being one to even talk of bisexual issues here, he found out and put me in the situation and I being in a confused state did allow something to transpire. It was no contact but still what I would call more then I would normally let happen. So I do apreshate the over all communication and I do feel that once an adult it is their responsabilty at an adult to carry on relationships as such. Were I find it to be wrong is that it does cose problems with the family if it would ever come out and it has a habit of doing that and that is what is not worth the risks of even step children even if they are adult at any age. But so does the cheatin g with any one. I do have bisexual desires but do not want to act on them and cause what I have to be lost in life. It is my choice and my life that I chose to be with some one and that is who I must be faithful to. That shoudl always be the issue.

Thankfully for the Internet and sometimes the sceurge is a release from that which a fantasy. Remember some fantasies are best left as one. Even though I had this happen I still feel it is wrong to have relastions with family for any reasons on purpose. I did not plan this and it did bother me. If I was single having a relationship with a man or a couple would be no problem but I am married and even her son is not some one I should ever have done something with. It was his desires I did not control mine.

Thank you for you input.

Not sure if I can explain this very well.....your post really hit me.

I have posted in this thread a few times and talked about how I was abused at 3 by uncles, off and on by my mother for years and also was involved later on with my cousin and enjoyed that experience, tho it was not blatantly sexual as such.

When I first read this thread, I assumed that you were asking because you were for incest.

Now reading this post I am really struck by my assumption....and I have been on both sides of the incest fence as it were.

If you break down ASSUME you get ASS out of U and ME.

Just goes to show you how society's judgments influences our thinking regardless of our beliefs.

I sense a lot of guilt in your words, a lot of shame and regret. Those feelings will eat you up inside far more than the event ever will. One thing I have learned is that there's not a damned thing anyone can do to change what has already happened.

I agree that cheating is just not the way to go, but that has nothing to do with incest as such. In other words, incest does not always involve cheating.

It kind of sounds to me like you are more troubled by the cheating aspect of this event.

I know that a lot of people have tried to make the point that it is not wise to judge people on these reltionships that do not hurt anyone.

In your case, I would submit that the cheating is what did hurt someone, or has the potential to, and that is where the biggest struggle lies.

[chulainn2]

ok, this is simple there are approx. 6,525,170,264 (July 2006 est.) people breathing in the world. Is it really that difficult to find someone else romp with outside of your family?

[chulainn2]

ooops sorry about the font size. I didnt mean to super size them that large

[DiamondDog]

I post on another board and this topic of incest came up and everyone agreed that how it's bad from a genetic standpoint and if there's abuse but how it's not abuse if there isn't a power dynamic and if two consenting adults agree to do it, and how in other cultures it is practised.

It was mentioned that the idea of incest in our culture is brought on by heterocentric ideas and that there's absolutely NOTHING wrong with incest in fantasy (i.e. Dad/son, or Dad/"boy" roleplay for sex/BDSM, which by the way isn't always an incest fantasy or a chickenhawk thing).

We did however agree that Parental incest where there is force/coercion or abuse is a bad thing and how it can seriously warp people.

I think parent-child relationships remain loaded one's whole life -- just because two people are adults doesn't mean they stop relating to each other as parent and chld -- for that reason, I think actual parent-child incest is a really bad idea, and I know people who have had sex with their brother or Dad and it seriously warped them; but in most of these cases rape/force was involved.

[Long Duck Dong]

for the record, I am not a licensed professional..... I am a certified free lance counsellor....Glantern, you are jumping to conclusions to support your opinion

I live in nz so the counseling set up is totally different to the us.....and so are the laws governing counselors and licensed professionals

A licensed professional is a person that has done the full 7 years of courses in a chosen field, and is therefore bound by the laws and rules governing the counselor, which heavily limit what may be said, written or expressed by the counselor in their chosen field
a certified counselor, such as myself, has a average of 10-14 base level certs in each field, we have access to all the different agencies.....but we are allowed to work in any field

as a counselor it is my job to remain neutral.... I am not allowed to have a opinion nor form a judgement.....I am not allowed to take any sides......
therefore I am not allowed to class a pedophile as different to a necrophile, or a heterosexual as any different to a pansexual

the trouble is that people tend to think that applies to me outside of the counseling real,... and it doesn't......
I have a opinion that is not reflected in my counseling work...in the same manner that people have a opinion about the boss that they express outside of work hours, but they would not express in the work place

in bisexual.com, my opinion as a person, differs from my opinion as a counselor......using my chosen profession as a way to question my integrity as a person, would be like me, judging your work ethics by the fact that you are bisexual and making assumptions about the quality of your work, posted on your personal opinion in your posts

[glantern954]

for the record, I am not a licensed professional..... I am a certified free lance counsellor....Glantern, you are jumping to conclusions to support your opinion

Like many of your posts, I am having a hard time trying to decipher what you are saying. Don't get me wrong I think you have a lot of good advice but I never assumed you to be a licensed anything and was not looking for you to support my opinion. No disrespect intended.

This post asked where I draw the line, and I think I have made my opinion perfectly clear. With that said I will move along to much lighter topics.

[NorthBiEast]

k, I know in advance that this is off topic, but I have to throw my 2 cents in.

You're right, LDD, about the difference in certifications between the countries. It sounds to me like what you have is similar to my state's MHRT-C or LSW (me for now), which qualifies you for community counseling/social work, but not "official" therapy. 3-4 year degree. We don't have a lot of distinctions within the mental health field beyond substance abuse and general mental health stuff.

For the official therapist level, you need a master's degree, plus 2 years of being supervised by someone at the clinical level (me later ;) )

I also agree with you about being able to leave professional ethics at work. Sometimes easier said than done, but if you're warm and fuzzy all the time, you just start to go crazy by the end of the week.

It helps to be able to use what you've learned to help people outside of work too, but sometimes you (in the generic sense) have to specify "this is me the social worker talking, but the real me says something else"

K, think I'm done now, thanks :offtopic:

[Solomon]

belhelne

I do identify with that situation at least from an emotional perspective, they can and do definately push the bounderies most every chance they get lol.

I wonder if your stepson's dealing with emotional issues with his parents though an just taking it out on you to get back at them. That seems to happen alot.

I am glad that you've come to a decision that I believe would be the best way to go for ya. I don't believe that it'd be too much fun having to sneak around on your wife or most of all yourself. It would certainly at some point come back to haunt you in ways that I'm sure you've already imagined.

It is very easy to get lost in the moment at times, but from the sounds of it you were able to keep things from getting too far, and that shows alot of your character right there.

It also shows alot of your character to have this challenge, and to look for input. Confusion, silence, and isolation are a deadly combination to integrity.

In marriage it really is true the two become one and if ya can't be honest with yourself then who can ya be honest with?

[trip1]

belhelne

I do identify with that situation at least from an emotional perspective, they can and do definately push the bounderies most every chance they get lol.

I wonder if your stepson's dealing with emotional issues with his parents though an just taking it out on you to get back at them. That seems to happen alot.

I am glad that you've come to a decision that I believe would be the best way to go for ya. I don't believe that it'd be too much fun having to sneak around on your wife or most of all yourself. It would certainly at some point come back to haunt you in ways that I'm sure you've already imagined.

It is very easy to get lost in the moment at times, but from the sounds of it you were able to keep things from getting too far, and that shows alot of your character right there.

It also shows alot of your character to have this challenge, and to look for input. Confusion, silence, and isolation are a deadly combination to integrity.

In marriage it really is true the two become one and if ya can't be honest with yourself then who can ya be honest with?

Very well said Solomon

[Long Duck Dong]

lol yeah northbieast

there is a big difference between a licensed therapist and a certified counselor

the trouble with me is that my views as a counselor are also damm near identical to my views as a real person lol

back on topic

with areas like step kin relationships... i don't have a issue with it...unless it crosses legal boundaries....like age of consent.....if its not a legal issue, then i see no reason for me to object to it and say its wrong, and I am aware that I get pissed off where people judging me cos i am bisexual, so I am not judging others based on their sexual / emotional attractions

what is amusing the hell outta me, is the people posting in this thread, most of them are bisexual, they understand how others see them and their bisexuality, and how bisexuality is not accepted and respected, and it's classed as morally and ethically wrong, by a lot of people, cos its breaking the state of marriage as people see it

so i am curious as to how a step parent and step child ( over the legal age of consent ) can be regarded as morally / ethical wrong in the eyes of people that feel that having multiple sexual partners in a marriage, is perfectly fine lol

now I have seen the argument used that if a step parent is in a relationship with a step child ( over the legal age ) its a betrayal of the kid....so I ask at what point is the step child regarded as mature enough to decide for themselves, that they are interested in the other party, to the point of pursing a sexual / emotional relationship

now if you remove the step parent / child aspect of the relationship... it becomes a non issue....it is simply a relationship between two people, and most people wouldn't care......
it only becomes a issue when we add the step parent / child aspect to it...and add our expectations to it....
meanwhile we are telling people to stop slamming us for having multiple partners of both sexes, as we slam people for having relations that we deem and inappropriate

one interesting aspect of this, is the christian / spiritual aspect of this....
christians tell us that we all come from the same creator,
spirituality tells us we are all interlinked and a part of each other
CAN ANYBODY SAY INCEST ????????

[Solomon]

Thanx Trip, feels good to be validated. :cool:

LOL LDD! I laugh 'cuz it's so true.

Personally, I think that it's so intensely emotional of an issue because most people actually feel very attracted to certain aspects of their family that actually doesn't have anything to do with sex, but can come out in sexual feelings, fantasies, and dreams, but because the issue is slammed by the powers that be, when it's talked about the person feels vulnerable to being exposed.

And in alot of cultures, when it's exposed those cultures react with further confusion, isolation, and wanting to silence the issue. Not to mention confusing the separation of the issue to the person (to the extreme in some cases).

I think one of the clues for my opinion being accurate is that it's perfectly acceptable and encouraged to look for partners that remind them of mom and/or pop and/or some other family member that they look up to. Some even to the point of marital arrangements etc. etc....

However, due to the fear instilled by the powers that be I think that alot of people are so scared stiff to acknowledge this and it ends up becoming something that's bible thumped, and legal thumped, suppressed and then comes out in ways that are totally unacceptable and very harmful. And very emotionally charged when it's talked about.

Of course it truly is confusion, silence, and isolation that is the deadliest combination against integrity. Intentionally using those three attributes against anyone in order to impose beliefs is abusive in my opinion.

[flexuality]

what is amusing the hell outta me, is the people posting in this thread, most of them are bisexual, they understand how others see them and their bisexuality, and how bisexuality is not accepted and respected, and it's classed as morally and ethically wrong, by a lot of people, cos its breaking the state of marriage as people see it

so i am curious as to how a step parent and step child ( over the legal age of consent ) can be regarded as morally / ethical wrong in the eyes of people that feel that having multiple sexual partners in a marriage, is perfectly fine lol



LOL!

Yeah, it's kind of like saying "Don't judge me, I'm busy judging you!" :tong:

[sammie19]

In my early teens I was entranced by my older cousin. She was a vivacious and lovely girl 5 years older than me and my crush went very deep. I have never told her of my feelings, in fact have never told anyone. While my family brought me up very liberally, and that there is no law against relationships with first cousins, the taboo of incest remains even for cousins. I never acted on it. Why should she want a dizzy 13 year old any way? But I so wanted her.

We are still very close, still best friends and I love her dearly and am glad now that I never spoke of my feelings or made a fool of myself.

I have no doubt that parent child relationships are not right at whatever age, or that brothers and sisters should avoid sexual liaisons with each other. But why when it is not illegal or immoral do we feel so guilty when attracted to our cousins? I still feel guilty for feelings I once had but now am glad they never progressed beyond fantasy for our love and friendship has grown into so much more than would probably otherwise have been the case.

[Solomon]

sammie19,

I really don't know very much about your situation, but according to your post I suspect that you've answered your own question about your guilty feelings.

You're post says that you still see incest as being a very taboo thing and that you also see your feelings as a 13 yo. as being foolish.

Feelings aren't that smart lol. :cool:

[sammie19]

Not always Solomon. Im not sure my feelings were foolish but they did hurt and make me so desperate. At the age I was they were very real and like many things which seem real at 13 time passed and then the feeling of foolishness set in and with it real intensity in the guilt.

[flexuality]

Not always Solomon. Im not sure my feelings were foolish but they did hurt and make me so desperate. At the age I was they were very real and like many things which seem real at 13 time passed and then the feeling of foolishness set in and with it real intensity in the guilt.

I think understand what you mean, but not knowing your situation I could be way off base.

But for me, this is something that confused me for a long time. Not just around incest issues, but other feelings that were intense when they were originally felt too.

It's kind of tricky to expain, but I'll try. :)

Feelings are rather strange things. They seem to get "locked in time" and do not know the difference between past and present. This is actually how the brain stores feelings. We have this thing called an amygdala (I called it Mr A) that stores all these intense feelings (and feelings associated with trauma) and is hooked up to a sort of "alarm system", that when triggered sets off those feelings. It's a survival thing designed to protect us, and it works well. Sometimes, too well!

Kind of like seeing a bear and feeling shocked before thinking kicks in. That's Mr A taking over to protect and sets off a "fight or flight" response. It takes a minute for rational thought to kick in, but can be life saving.

Mr A has a habit of storing some feelings that we're not really aware are being stored.

So what happens is that something sets off the feelings, (the trigger) and feelings from when we were 13 kick in and at the same time, the feelings, thought and beliefs we have NOW are there and they conflict with the 13 year old "us" and we start to feel kind of stupid or dumb or guilty for having the 13 year old feelings. Cuz, gee I'm an adult now and I know this that and the other and I shouldn't be feeling that....etc, etc, etc.....

Clear as mud, huh?

For myself, I had to learn how to just "let" those 13 year old's feelings just "be there" and learn to become ok with them. The more I tried to NOT have those 13 year old's feelings, the worse it got and the guiltier I felt.

It isn't an easy thing to do, but with time and persistance (and feeling really dumb and guilty at first) it has become a lot easier for my 13 year old's feelings to just kind of dissipate and become simply a memory instead of a trigger.

I have no idea if this makes any sense to you....or anyone else....or if it even applies or helps.....

Just something that really helped me. :)

[Solomon]

sammie19,

Just to add to what Flex's post says.

Were you saying that as a result of having a strong attraction you felt hurt and desparate because you were unable to express those feelings, and then it turned into an overly intense feeling of guilt?

I'm sort of suspecting that your feelings might not have anything to do with incest, and more with feelings of rejection, and that maybe because you weren't given a chance to talk about your feelings and express them safely they changed to feelings of guilt and needing to justify why you were not able to able to even talk about your feelings and perhaps gain a deeper understanding of yourself.

I'm only suggesting that from your posts it seems that it's the emotional entrapment that seems to be creating your intense feelings now.

But as I said, it's simply a shot in the dark from my end lol. :cool: :cool:

[deletetacount123]

I am also very close to my cousin whom is my age but we are 5 months apart.
For the longest time I had a crush on my cousin.....

Here is where things are different.... Im adopted so Im not of the same blood as my family at all. But would I have sex with them? NO!!! These people raised me, been around me my whole life.... I don't think of them in a sexual way.

While I do have a crush on her I know it would never work lol We may not be blood related but we are still cousins. We used to joke with each other about being blood sisters in a past life just cause of how close we are. I wondered if we were twins in a past life cause we sure act like twins lol (same thoughts and so on.. we carry a "twin bond" it seems)
When I first came out (back in August 2006) to her that I was into women we had a nice long chat. Which lend to teasing, joking and getting silly which was were we found out if we weren't cousins we would probably date each other!!
The room went silent really fast when we realized what we just said and I changed the subject by commenting on something in her house that I liked. "ooh where did you get that??"
But I was surprised that day when I learned she had the same crush on me and it just felt weird. (almost natural that we both felt that way) So thats why I had to change the subject when I did and she had agreed.
But there was a time she said "You're my perfect match!!" (cause we both want the same things in a relationship and had been talking about relationships.) We both express strong feelings of wanting to be together but we know it just wouldn;t be right. We talk about it, joke about it often, and even talked about being roomates at one point.

Shes getting married in July and Im one of her bridesmaids. :-)

But sometimes it bothers me that my cousin and I are so close we even consider dating each other since we're not blood related.
Is it normal to feel and think THAT way?? We grew up together but people have always grown up together and not be related.

Ah Well :-) Shes getting married and although I don't like her bf that much (I think hes not good for her and shes just marrying him cause she's known him for so long and trust me.. Im not the only one who thinks hes not good for her lol.) I really care about her :-) Im just happy i know her and shes in my life. We made a pact we would never be apart :-)

But being adopted is always hard. Its rather scary you could date someone and not know they ARE related to you. Not all adopted people know who thier birth families are. Some choose to never find out cause they have no interest. Im one of those people who have no interest in ever finding out who my birthfamily is.

Well I think I said a lot.... not looking forward to any "ewww" comments lol
Cousins dating have always been "normal" in both my cousins and mine view... its been going on for centuries... it just seems normal for us. And we aren;t blood related so maybe thats why we feel that way. One thing I know for sure tho.... My cousin and I were together in many lifetimes we're just 2 souls who have shared so much together.

[Solomon]

Sounds to me that you made the best decision for you and that's good. I do like hearing about people caring about each other on a deeper level than just sexual :cool: :cool:

I'm glad that people make up their own minds and what works for them that's wonderful.

Where I do object is when people feel the need to force their opinions on other people in order to conform to the normal, when the abnormal isn't actually hurting anyone else.

In other words I'm just totally against having witch hunts for no good bloody reason except for somebody DECIDED to get offended by it.

[Avocado]

ok, this is simple there are approx. 6,525,170,264 (July 2006 est.) people breathing in the world. Is it really that difficult to find someone else romp with outside of your family?

Post 62, point 3

[glantern954]

I think most adultse understand that kids sometimes mess around together as they discover their sexuality. Sometimes they are friends, sometimes they are cousins, and sometimes they are siblings or step-siblings. I also think it is pretty easy to say that many kids might not understand the psychological damage they could potentially inflict on each other. Especially if there are significant age differences between them. Is a horny older brother taking advantage of his little brother or sister potentially harmful? I think so, and this is where abusing your role in the family comes in. It’s pretty easy to just dismiss these actions as the kids didn’t know any better.

Is it possible for two grown adults of relation or step relation to have a relationship that is healthy. Probably, in some cases. If we are talking about a step-parent and a step-child it gets a little more complicated. Lets use me as an example, I have a step brother that is 11 and I am 39. In 7 years he will be of legal age for me to date if I was interested in going there. That is 7 years of my influence over him as a child to make him ready for my advances on his 18th birthday. Not only would I have violated his father’s trust but I would have violated his trust in what my role to him should be as a big brother.

I’m glad that it has been acknowledged that any parent or step-parent having sex with a child family member is pedophelia and is wrong. In my opinion though, adults accepting family members as potential partners puts children in danger by people who would use that acceptance to their advantage. I am not making this assumtion about anyone here.

I don’t expect to see this ever being accepted by the public in my lifetime. If for a second I thought this was a future possibility I would stop being an out bisexual. I would stop speaking at conferences, I would stop promoting bi-visibilty, and I would stop trying to break the “anything that moves” stereotype about our community.

Is including your family in your dating pool really worth making it more difficult for kids to have normal relationships with their family members? Most mothers don’t trust their children alone with their uncles as it is. Are we as humans that selfish? As adults shouldn’t we know better?

[flexuality]

I think most adultse understand that kids sometimes mess around together as they discover their sexuality. Sometimes they are friends, sometimes they are cousins, and sometimes they are siblings or step-siblings. I also think it is pretty easy to say that many kids might not understand the psychological damage they could potentially inflict on each other. Especially if there are significant age differences between them. Is a horny older brother taking advantage of his little brother or sister potentially harmful? I think so, and this is where abusing your role in the family comes in. It’s pretty easy to just dismiss these actions as the kids didn’t know any better.

Is it possible for two grown adults of relation or step relation to have a relationship that is healthy. Probably, in some cases. If we are talking about a step-parent and a step-child it gets a little more complicated. Lets use me as an example, I have a step brother that is 11 and I am 39. In 7 years he will be of legal age for me to date if I was interested in going there. That is 7 years of my influence over him as a child to make him ready for my advances on his 18th birthday. Not only would I have violated his father’s trust but I would have violated his trust in what my role to him should be as a big brother.

I’m glad that it has been acknowledged that any parent or step-parent having sex with a child family member is pedophelia and is wrong. In my opinion though, adults accepting family members as potential partners puts children in danger by people who would use that acceptance to their advantage. I am not making this assumtion about anyone here.

I don’t expect to see this ever being accepted by the public in my lifetime. If for a second I thought this was a future possibility I would stop being an out bisexual. I would stop speaking at conferences, I would stop promoting bi-visibilty, and I would stop trying to break the “anything that moves” stereotype about our community.

Is including your family in your dating pool really worth making it more difficult for kids to have normal relationships with their family members? Most mothers don’t trust their children alone with their uncles as it is. Are we as humans that selfish? As adults shouldn’t we know better?

Has it ever occurred to anyone that probably 99.9% of people DO NOT WANT these kinds of relationship to begin with?

I seriously doubt that there's any chance of it becoming some kind of "accepted norm", nor do I think that anyone is trying to say that it should be.

I think that all anyone is really trying to say is "please don't judge me - unless you've walked in my shoes, you can not know the road I've travelled."

Just because someone feels something, doesn't mean they have to act on it. And to act on feelings in an abusive way is never okay, whether it's family or not. That does NOT, however, make feelings "wrong."

[darkeyes]

Has it ever occurred to anyone that probably 99.9% of people DO NOT WANT these kinds of relationship to begin with?

I seriously doubt that there's any chance of it becoming some kind of "accepted norm", nor do I think that anyone is trying to say that it should be.

I think that all anyone is really trying to say is "please don't judge me - unless you've walked in my shoes, you can not know the road I've travelled."

Just because someone feels something, doesn't mean they have to act on it. And to act on feelings in an abusive way is never okay, whether it's family or not. That does NOT, however, make feelings "wrong."

A voice of sanity in a sea of hysteria. x

[Long Duck Dong]

agrees with dark eyes and flex

i will defend the people in the step parent / child situations if they are both over the age of consent.... as its their right to have a relationship and if they both feel in love, then i respect that.....

who am I to pass judgment on the feelings and desires of another..... I am entitled to a opinion.... but not a judgement..... for if I am to judge others according to their actions... then I am no better than the people whom I fight against, for the rights of gays and lesbians to marry... and i am not gay or lesbian... I am bisexual.... but I am still human and one of a few billion people that just wanna have a lil peace and quiet in the world one day

[sammie19]

ok, this is simple there are approx. 6,525,170,264 (July 2006 est.) people breathing in the world. Is it really that difficult to find someone else romp with outside of your family?

Does this not miss the point? Not everyone can help the person they fall in love with. Not every sexual liaison is a "romp" and not everyone has the strength to resist their desires however much we would wish it otherwise.

[sammie19]

I think understand what you mean, but not knowing your situation I could be way off base.

But for me, this is something that confused me for a long time. Not just around incest issues, but other feelings that were intense when they were originally felt too.

It's kind of tricky to expain, but I'll try. :)

Feelings are rather strange things. They seem to get "locked in time" and do not know the difference between past and present. This is actually how the brain stores feelings. We have this thing called an amygdala (I called it Mr A) that stores all these intense feelings (and feelings associated with trauma) and is hooked up to a sort of "alarm system", that when triggered sets off those feelings. It's a survival thing designed to protect us, and it works well. Sometimes, too well!

Kind of like seeing a bear and feeling shocked before thinking kicks in. That's Mr A taking over to protect and sets off a "fight or flight" response. It takes a minute for rational thought to kick in, but can be life saving.

Mr A has a habit of storing some feelings that we're not really aware are being stored.

So what happens is that something sets off the feelings, (the trigger) and feelings from when we were 13 kick in and at the same time, the feelings, thought and beliefs we have NOW are there and they conflict with the 13 year old "us" and we start to feel kind of stupid or dumb or guilty for having the 13 year old feelings. Cuz, gee I'm an adult now and I know this that and the other and I shouldn't be feeling that....etc, etc, etc.....

Clear as mud, huh?

For myself, I had to learn how to just "let" those 13 year old's feelings just "be there" and learn to become ok with them. The more I tried to NOT have those 13 year old's feelings, the worse it got and the guiltier I felt.

It isn't an easy thing to do, but with time and persistance (and feeling really dumb and guilty at first) it has become a lot easier for my 13 year old's feelings to just kind of dissipate and become simply a memory instead of a trigger.

I have no idea if this makes any sense to you....or anyone else....or if it even applies or helps.....

Just something that really helped me. :)

Im not entirely sure what you are getting at Flexuality but I think you are in danger of overanalysing my 13 yo feelings. I loved and still love my cousin but my feeling of love moved on from crush and desire to complete respect, closeness and friendship which means more to me now than the feelings I had then. Now I accept it as a part of my growing up, but then it was such a big thing for me and you are right when you say time helps dissipate and become memory which eased the pain I felt at the time.

[sammie19]

sammie19,

Just to add to what Flex's post says.

Were you saying that as a result of having a strong attraction you felt hurt and desparate because you were unable to express those feelings, and then it turned into an overly intense feeling of guilt?

I'm sort of suspecting that your feelings might not have anything to do with incest, and more with feelings of rejection, and that maybe because you weren't given a chance to talk about your feelings and express them safely they changed to feelings of guilt and needing to justify why you were not able to able to even talk about your feelings and perhaps gain a deeper understanding of yourself.

I'm only suggesting that from your posts it seems that it's the emotional entrapment that seems to be creating your intense feelings now.

But as I said, it's simply a shot in the dark from my end lol. :cool: :cool:


Solomon. No I wasnt able to express my feelings and this was probably out of a fear of rejection. I did feel guilt and still do, not because of shame of sexuality but because I felt it unnatural to love and feel as I did a close blood relative. If you knew my cousin, who by the way is bisexual herself and has over the years in my darkest moments been such a source of strength and support to me, you would not doubt why I felt as I did, and why I was scared to death of that rejection. She was beautiful sexy witty and so full of life and did not care what the world thought of her. I on the other at 13 was a spotty skinny moody miserable tomboy with a mouthful of metal who for whatever reason rightly or wrongly I believed no one liked. She was the only person who seemed to take an interest and treat me as a human being. I just could not lose her and so my fear was out of self interest. As things have moved on from then I think it fate, kismet as a good friend of mine is so fond of saying, that things developed as they did and standing here now 8 years on it has been a good thing too.

[flexuality]

Im not entirely sure what you are getting at Flexuality but I think you are in danger of overanalysing my 13 yo feelings. I loved and still love my cousin but my feeling of love moved on from crush and desire to complete respect, closeness and friendship which means more to me now than the feelings I had then. Now I accept it as a part of my growing up, but then it was such a big thing for me and you are right when you say time helps dissipate and become memory which eased the pain I felt at the time.

Just to clarify....I only used the phrase "13 year old's feelings" as an example because I thought it would be easier to try to explain what I was getting at.

I could have said "my 3 year old's feelings" or "my 8 year old's feelings" but I figured it would get too confusing!

I did not mean you personally.

My own situation was far more complex than yours and I suppose that it would appear to be over analyzing if you thought I meant that I was talking about your situation.

I was just sharing something that worked for me.

I wasn't able to talk about my feelings at the time either. Matter of fact, some of the things I have posted in this thread are the first time I have talked about them.

I am glad you can at least post here. :)

[flexuality]

Geeeez.....every time I post in this thread, I feel very vulnerable. It seems to set off old emotions like crazy......I post, then I cry for a while.....sometimes hard.... it's all good in the long run I think....but it's not easy...talk about risking being rejected....

It's kinda odd how that works.....the extreme anti-incest views seem to scream rejection...feels like I put my feelings out there and they get slammed....

That probably won't make any sense to someone who hasn't been through this.....

Just a thought...

[trip1]

Geeeez.....every time I post in this thread, I feel very vulnerable. It seems to set off old emotions like crazy......I post, then I cry for a while.....sometimes hard.... it's all good in the long run I think....but it's not easy...talk about risking being rejected....

It's kinda odd how that works.....the extreme anti-incest views seem to scream rejection...feels like I put my feelings out there and they get slammed....

That probably won't make any sense to someone who hasn't been through this.....

Just a thought...

You and Sol will get no rejection from me...Trip1

[Solomon]

sammie 19,

just to clarify, I have no doubts about your feelings then or now, and I think your feelings probably are very healthy for you. I was simply trying to understand what you were trying to express.

and thank you for sharing that part of you.

glantern,

you made some very good points that like Flex I wholeheartedly agree with, I also realize that that's a judgement that I make for me.

I also think that LDD, Flex, and darkeyes hit the nail on the head with not judging others once they reach the legal age to decide for themselves. And I'm certainly not advocating that this become the norm lol.

[wingnut]

No family members or anyone who is far younger than myself who I might serve as a surrogate parent, mentor or any other similar function--I pretty much have a cut off age of about 25 as my absolute minimum age that I would consider having sex with the person in question being either female or male---anyone younger than that and I would feel as though I am a cradle robber and a pedophile!!!!!!

We don't want you either, gramps. Go take your Viagra.

[matterinhand]

[QUOTE=sailorashore] I will never attend another Woody Allen flick, because I think his betrayal of his position of trust vis a vis his adopted daughter is the lowest kind of sleaze.

Just to correct something:
His adopted stepdaughter (Mia Farrow and Andre Previn had adopted her when they were together).
She was above the legal age for sexual consent.
Woody and Mia did not live together most of the time.

None of these are an excuse for what happened, but it is interesting to note that they now live together and act as though they are very much in love.

Sex, as a one off expression of lust (from either party) would have been wrong.
Love between two consenting ADULTS, not related by blood, thats more difficult.

I just stopped watching the films because they stopped being funny.

[deletetacount123]

Im adopted and I used to be bullied in school BIG TIME for this......

I have NO INTEREST in ever knowing who my birthfamily is.... why should I?? The family that raised and cared me IS my family.... I have a mom and a dad and brothers and a sister.

The bullies not only used the "Your "real" parents didn;t love you" lines which was so not true.... they also said "Since you don't want to know who they are,. what if you fall in love and later realize its really a blood related family member??"

While that question is interesting and I think about that often, I seriously doubt it. I know bits and pieces of my birth family and I know its a LARGE family.... but really, its a big world.... I don't even live near them so chances are very little to none.

Really tho, its not soemthing Im gonna worry about.... if it DID happen and we realize later we're really blood related..... well, we'll figure out what to do AT the time.... right now theres nothing to be concerned about.
No point worrying about something that most likely will never happen.

I figure if the bullies want to waste thier time on something like that, let them.... for me..... Im not gonna think about it. :-)
Beside, it helps too when you know the last name of my birth mother lol Soooo ya, just be careful of the people with that last name *grins*

But I can imagine if they are ever looking for me, they are gonna come across dead ends cause my whole name was changed when I was adopted.
Such a pretty name too.... I actually like it better than my current lol SHHHHH

[sammie19]

Im adopted and I used to be bullied in school BIG TIME for this......

I have NO INTEREST in ever knowing who my birthfamily is.... why should I?? The family that raised and cared me IS my family.... I have a mom and a dad and brothers and a sister.

The bullies not only used the "Your "real" parents didn;t love you" lines which was so not true.... they also said "Since you don't want to know who they are,. what if you fall in love and later realize its really a blood related family member??"

While that question is interesting and I think about that often, I seriously doubt it. I know bits and pieces of my birth family and I know its a LARGE family.... but really, its a big world.... I don't even live near them so chances are very little to none.

Really tho, its not soemthing Im gonna worry about.... if it DID happen and we realize later we're really blood related..... well, we'll figure out what to do AT the time.... right now theres nothing to be concerned about.
No point worrying about something that most likely will never happen.

I figure if the bullies want to waste thier time on something like that, let them.... for me..... Im not gonna think about it. :-)
Beside, it helps too when you know the last name of my birth mother lol Soooo ya, just be careful of the people with that last name *grins*

But I can imagine if they are ever looking for me, they are gonna come across dead ends cause my whole name was changed when I was adopted.
Such a pretty name too.... I actually like it better than my current lol SHHHHH

Tash. x

[deletetacount123]

HI Sammie :-) I sent you a PM on here....

[Daisy999]

Who would you draw the line with in having bi sex with?

Would you ever consider step family as viable? (step Son/ step Daughters)

That's sick and incest as far as I'm concerned.

Parents are supposed to be role models/guardians/responsible for their kids and not have sex with them, and doing sick stuff like that even with step children would seriously warp a person and it's an abuse of power/responsibility.

Get some therapy if you think that it's somehow OK since you're technically related only by marriage.

[Solomon]

i think you need therapy period Daisy.

[Avocado]

i think you need therapy period Daisy.

Agreed, though I'm not sure it would do the trick.

[Resurrection]

incest is a bad thing no matter who it comes from even if they're just related by marriage. I have friends who have had it done to them and it seriously f*****ked them up in the head. :(

[the sacred night]

To me the problem is the power dynamic. It is not appropriate for somone who has influence over someone else (boss, parental figure, etc) to engage in, or ask to engage in, sexual relationships with that person. :2cents:

I agree. Relationships like that can seem consensual, but when one person is an authority figure over the other, the one in the less powerful position can feel pressured even if the other person doesn't mean to put pressure on them. Like if my boss came onto me, even if they were being nice about it and didn't threaten to fire me or anything, I would still feel like they *might* fire me if I said no. Wouldn't mean I'd do it, but it'd be very awkward.

Two family members who are of equal power standing, though, maybe. I am actually very attracted to a female cousin of mine, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I have no plans to tell her about it, because I don't want to lose her friendship if she thinks I'm disgusting for being attracted to her. If I thought she would return my feelings, then I might, since my fiance and I have talked about it already. Since we're the same sex, there's no risk of inbred children, and the power dynamic isn't an issue with us because we're on the same level.

[Avocado]

I agree. Relationships like that can seem consensual, but when one person is an authority figure over the other, the one in the less powerful position can feel pressured even if the other person doesn't mean to put pressure on them. Like if my boss came onto me, even if they were being nice about it and didn't threaten to fire me or anything, I would still feel like they *might* fire me if I said no. Wouldn't mean I'd do it, but it'd be very awkward.

Two family members who are of equal power standing, though, maybe. I am actually very attracted to a female cousin of mine, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I have no plans to tell her about it, because I don't want to lose her friendship if she thinks I'm disgusting for being attracted to her. If I thought she would return my feelings, then I might, since my fiance and I have talked about it already. Since we're the same sex, there's no risk of inbred children, and the power dynamic isn't an issue with us because we're on the same level.

Not impossible for 2 members of the opposite sex to not have children either...

[purplespider]

"Yurk...

excuse me, I just threw up a little"

a little in my mouth...ohmygod...people...relatives??!!

yikes


Okay i know its not always easy to meet people..but really..thats a tad ..well not right isnt it?!

[Solomon]

just want to say that Tasha, you seem to have had some similar challenges to me... although i did grow up with mom, i didn't ever know my father or his side of the family either.

i tried to look'em up a couple times, but that fizzled as just being a feeling of the moment, and i hear what you're saying about not even being interested in contacting'em.

from what i understand they know about me, and they don't wanna bother with me, so i also figure that what comes around goes around.

for a long time i considered my step dad to be just that, a step dad but after awhile i realized that he was the one who did want me around, and he was the one that sacrificed all those years that i was growing up so that i could.

so yeah, he's my real dad. :cool: :cool:

btw, spider, you're entitled to your opinion. as north bi east and many others have pointed out, i think the thought that most people would struggle with would be the power dynamic, but since you've read all of the posts you would know this about me, so i don't really need to clarify myself in that respect again do i?

at no time did i or do i say that it's ok to abuse anyone, especially children.

abuse normally happens within a power dynamic of the parents supporting the kids while they're kids.

as a matter of fact i'm very very familiar with the dynamics of abuse and how it generally works. and yes i do have a sense for it.

take daisy for example, typically an abuser looks to isolate the victim, and looks for specific tendencies (or beliefs) to be exhibited.

daisy did in fact do her best to isolate me, by trying to get everyone to look at me as some sort of pedophile. she did this probably out of recognition that i am a real threat to exposing her, because i do know a little bit about what i'm doing in regards to dealing with abusers and she more than likely sensed that. not to mention she couldn't steal my confidence and probably wanted to punish me for it.

daisy also used a classic tactic of posting seemingly innocent (albeit controversial) initial posts, and after she recieved a bit of replies her very next post was to attack someone. this is a tactic to steal someone's confidence. it's very effective, especially on a website that promotes a supportive community where trust is very much an issue.

daisy also re-signed on as under another name of resurrection after she was banned. this is another tactic which is intended to send the message that noone is safe and that she's still able to punish, thereby further stealing confidence.

another tactic is to give orders under the guise of advice or stating an opinion. again this is stealing confidence because the unspoken message is "you can't do it right, you need to be told".

i could get more analytical, but i'll avoid writing a book here lol.

[Avocado]

"Yurk...

excuse me, I just threw up a little"

a little in my mouth...ohmygod...people...relatives??!!

yikes


Okay i know its not always easy to meet people..but really..thats a tad ..well not right isnt it?!

Surely we of all people should know not to call people desperate based on attraction?

[darkeyes]

I am no Christian, but is Jesus not meant to have said "Judge not lest ye be judged"? Avocado is right, we should not start name calling those for whom we have an affinity.. society's outsiders.

[meteast chick]

I fully agree with you darkeyes. We come here as a respite from the everyday, to be who we are and expect no condemnation. Allthough I have my personal opinions about incest, et all, and certainly states and countries have made themselves clear on the issue, who are we to name call?

luv and kisses,
xoxoxoxoxoxox
meteast