"Big Brother" Bill

[Just_Gem]

This is the 1st thread I've started here but feel that this is too important to ALL Americans not to post here. It is a link to a petition to sign to stop Bush's newest bill to take away more of our freedoms. It is a bill aimed at legalizing his illegal wire-tapping and access to our private e-mails.

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/295861101

I have already signed it and hope that all Americans will as well. There is also a link on the site for you to send it to others and hope that you send it to others as I have.

I am very passionate about the rights we have as many in my family have fought and died over the years since 1635 when we 1st came to what was at that time just a small colony in Massachusetts, and abhor what GW is trying to do now while he still has a Republican Congress to back him up - or at least he thinks he does.

Gem

[ambi53mm]

Thanks Just Gem for bringing this site to my attention. I did sign and will pass it on to as many as I can. I have the feeling that we'll be feeling the effects of GW for many years to come and will personally do all within my power to protect those few precious rights we have left.

Ambi :)

[Mrs.F]

I signed it! I just can't stand GWB!!!!! :disgust:

[Doggie_Wood]

The bill is aimed at circumventing terrorist activity. Not to invade your precious privacy. I am getting so freeking tired of the stupid assholes who are trying to make this bill a political agenda based on personal preferences against the President.
We, as Americans, are in a new ere of warfare against those who don't give a rats ass about you or me, be you democrat, republican, conservative or liberal. These fucking rag-head sob's (here and over seas) have one ideology, either you beleive and worship Alla their way or NO WAY. It's that simple folks. According to their Kuran, either you are of Islamic faith or you are an infidel. And infidels are to be put to death. Period - no ifs, ands or buts. Put to, DEAD, death!!!
Wake the fuck up people - stop the petty fighting and nay-saying amongst ourselves. You better get serious about stopping those over there from coming over here and stopping the ones who are already over here (and beleive you me, they are here) plotting to blow up train stations, bus stations, shopping malls, commuter tunnels or any other public place where American people congregate. This is what the bill is about! Not who you fucked on your last date or who gave you a blow job. Who really cares! Not me.
If they intercept one of my many communications in the proccess of tracking or attempting to zero in on a terrorist cell or activity, it's perfectly fine by me. Why? Because the terrorist activity they are looking for or to stop might save your sniveling whining ass, that's why. Not mine but yours. Although I don't agree with a good many of you on many things (and some of you really piss me off) - I do care for each and everyone of you. It's real simple, I love all of America and all Americans.
I will not sign the petition. I have nothing to hide if they happen to glance at one of my emails or hear one of my conversations. I say / print nothing to go against the laws of my country. I am a Vietnam era veteran as well. I don't always agree with what is said or done by our government, but hey, it's a democracy. You don't like someone or something, cast yer vote. That's the way it's been done for 200 years. If yer gonna be an American, quite yer fucking sniveling, do it the American way and vote.
The pen is mightier than the sword.
And yes, I support my President. Just like I supported WJ Clinton, I support GW Bush. I am a patriot and if you don't like it - tough shit - vote me out.

BTW - I said enough "Key" words in one paragraph that "Big Brother" will have read this reply to the tread before some of you. It's already being done and has been for the past tree Presidents. Nothin new - just more technocressy.
:2cents:

:doggie:

[meteast chick]

As Americans, it is our God given right to own, harbor and even shout out loud our personal opinions. I'll freely admit I did not vote for George W. either time, and allthough I'm proud to be an American(most days), I did sign this bill. I understand its underlying intentions, I do, but what prevents them from using it in ways that are the most concerning to all of us? What right does the government have to invade our personal space? To say it's under the guise of national security is a big steaming pile of horse shit. There will always be people who will hate America, but America is the 'Big Brother' to every other fucking country out there. We have always tried to push our political agenda's on other countries, and they don't like it. As far as Islam goes, I've had it. I'm officially getting this t-shirt...

[ambi53mm]

I am getting so freeking tired of the stupid assholes who are trying to make this bill a political agenda based on personal preferences against the President. :doggie:

LOL You need to take a chill pill man...at this rate you'll be lucky to 2008. I appreciate the laugh tho

Ambi: )

[LoveLion]

Ok GET THIS! The Us government now has access to all online essays, written by students or not, stored in American servers. They use this to find potential terrorists. Not only is this a rediculas measure BUT it also gives them access to any essay stored on the servers NOT written by Americans who dont even live in the US! Thats right, the US government has access to all of our Canadian University data bases and all of the essays and papers our students and profs write. Any high school that uses US data bases (which most universities do because of access ability and sharing with US schools etc) are all accessible to the US government as well! The US gov. can accuse a Canadian student of terrorism for a piece he/she wrote in Canada, for a Canadian school! This is not only a gross invasion of privacy but also an Invasion of our country! Alot of schools are now getting together to build their own Canadian data base

[Herbwoman39]

Good God people, this is nothing new. There have been wire taps since the invention of the telephone. There have been government reading of emails since the early 90's. We really have never had anything even vaguely resembling privacy from the government. We just had an illusion. Clinton read emails and scanned college student's papers. This is no different.

This is the price we pay for living in an age of technology. If you don't want to live like this, stop emailing people, sell your computer, get rid of your cell phone, buy a cabin in the Rocky Mountains and move away from anything even remotely resembling the civilized world.

I'm not saying I like it. I'm just saying that this is the way it is.

[Lisa (va)]

I find your thoughts on the issue interesting Dogwood, so much so I asked my husband to read it. One thing you said he had a comment on was when you said cast your vote, Jeff told me that the first term for Bush the majority of America didn't vote him in, he actually lost the popular vote. Now I'm not into politics by any means but seems to me we put a loser into the office, and I'm sure most think he is a loser :).

Also, like you, I have nothing to hide. But isn't there a reason that we call it our "private lives", should they be allowed to randomly select individuals for screening? Will this bill change anything, they been doing it and will keep doing it regardless.

Lisa

hugs n kisses

[Azrael]

Also, like you, I have nothing to hide. But isn't there a reason that we call it our "private lives", should they be allowed to randomly select individuals for screening? Will this bill change anything, they been doing it and will keep doing it regardless.

Exactly.

[sailorashore]

Dogwood~~
As one of the "sniveling assholes" whom you urge to waken, I would like to point out to you that reacting to this government's assault on privacy is not simply a matter of liking or disliking the Bush family. If this, or any other, administration is given carte blanche to review our personal conversations, reading habits, and history of political affiliations they might just get the notion that we are worthy of their careful scrutiny with an eye toward squelching future public dissent--has nothing to do with terrorism or protecting our safety. Are you old enough to remember the Nixon gang's "Enemies List" or perhaps "Tailgunner Joe" McCarthy? American history is replete with examples of efforts by those in power to discredit or disenfranchise those who disagree with their policies, or who have the audacity to try and expose their corruption. Get a clue, man! Rights are like muscles--if you don't exercise them they wither and atrophy. We Americans like to throw that word "freedom" around a lot, but if we give up the freedom to live and speak as our convictions dictate, without wondering who might be making a tape of it, and for what purpose, then hell the terrorists have already won. We will have sacrificed our most basic principles out of fear.
Sorry, pal, but I'm WAY more afraid of Big Brother than of some pissed off radical on the way to his own funeral.

[dfwbi-cyclist]

Thanks for opening the can of worms Dogwood :tong:

I can't help but realize no one has addressed Herbwomans statement that this went on all throughout the '90's (Clinton Era) and have maintained the typical "my party is better than you party" tunnel vision.

And what is this crap with "private lives staying private"?? It sounds like some people need a freakin kindergarten education on the internet if they think ANY aspect of the internet is private (it was created by the government and top schools to "share information" you know).

Holy crap! Where do you think all that spam comes from??? Companies track were you go on the web, everyone posts personal info on profiles, myspace etc. and Joe Blow hacker is accessing info (info that is and will stay off limits to the government) to destroy peoples personal lives every day. They are getting this info from companies that we continue to deal with and provide info to of free will. But by God, if the government wants to read our emails about bomb making, then internet abuse has gone too far! what a joke

Get an education about how long this has been going on, who all is involved and who is getting what info. Then come back and bitch appropriately about the goverment accessing info (which we all (BI's) can't agree on) or the government restricting marriage (which we all (BI's) can't agree on) while HIV continues it's growth among BI people due to a lack of education. Gee, we really have our priorities "straight" on how we spend our "resources" don't we.

Hey, maybe that is the next step. The gov. can read emails to see who is playing "unsafe" so we can finally educate them and save lives. Nah, you're all right, saving lives is wrong, go ahead and sign the petition that is not going to be sent to anyone. :rolleyes:

[Doggie_Wood]

...... One thing you said he had a comment on was when you said cast your vote, Jeff told me that the first term for Bush the majority of America didn't vote him in, he actually lost the popular vote.

I am not a political activist either Lisa - and Jeff is correct. Pre-final counts of the popular vote had Bush at under a 2% margin of loosing (I believe). However, in Presidential elections, the electoral college is what is used.

The United States Electoral College is the official name of the group of Presidential Electors who are chosen every four years to cast the electoral vote and thereby elect the President and Vice President of the United States. The "electoral college" was established by Article Two, Section One of the United States Constitution, which provides for a quadrennial election of Presidential Electors in each state. The electoral process was modified in 1804 with the ratification of the 12th Amendment and again in 1961 with the ratification of the 23rd Amendment. wikipedia

But in most all other issues that concern us as Americans, electing our representatives in each state, bills, bond pakages, etc. - it is our voices and our votes that is heard on the hill (hopefully).

:doggie:

[LoveLion]

We really have never had anything even vaguely resembling privacy from the government. We just had an illusion. Clinton read emails and scanned college student's papers. This is no different.

First Id like to ask if just because its been going on for years it makes it ok? These invasions into our privacy are getting worse and worse, but there happening slow enough that people just dont seem to care. Its one little sacrifice of privacy here and another little sacrifice there, and one day we'll have nothing left and no one will remember how things got so bad. Accept the rate at which people are giving up their privacies is increasing with each privacy we give up. Its a slow slide into a world none of us want to live in.

I know its an extreme example, but the Nazis used a similar slow process while processing the Jews. At first it was just sign a sheet if your Jewish, then it was wear a star in public, then it was move out of your homes, until finally they were slaughtering them. No one saw it comming and amost didnt even know it was happening because it was a gradual transition. If in Germany in 1930 The gov. just stated that all Jews must die, and started rounding them up and killing them There would have been huge resistence form the people bith Jewish and non. But because it happend so gradually, the Nazis slowly took away the Jews freedoms and privacys as they slowly turned the rest of the country against them.

Now Im not saying that this is happening in America, but I am saying be careful. At what point are you willing to say enough is enough and not give up that more one little cumb of freedom?

And as for the American Gov accessing Canadian citizans info and reading it, This is NOT ok. In the US you probely dont heat anything about it but America has a tendency to Nab Canadians and imprison then on "suspected terrorism" Its happend several times to Canadian Citizans and every time our Gov tries to fight to get them back the American Gov refuses to release them. Canada is already "The Heaven for Terrorists" and we are dealing with our own freedom and privacy issues. We DO NOT need another country's Gov invading our privacy and taking the freedoms we are granted by our own country. How would you feel is France suddenly started accessing your personal information and accusing your people of terrorism? probably not very happy.

[dfwbi-cyclist]

How would you feel is France suddenly started accessing your personal information and accusing your people of terrorism? probably not very happy.

Seeing as how France has been getting "bitch slapped" by their own Muslim youth, that worry doesn't rate real high. :rolleyes:

...and seeing as how Canada has more in common with France than the USA, I am just fine with us trying to keep it from coming over here.

If other country's don't like it, they can take it to the UN to "punish" us with sanctions. lol

And again, No one EVER had internet privacy. Post and surf in the public domain on pages owned by public companies and then be stupid enough to gripe about privacy? Come on.

[citystyleguy]

damn, it; after reading all this pro/anti political viewpoints, a few side trips into early u.s history, and a couple of soapbox rants, i have damn well forgotten what was the point of this tread!!!??? :2cents:

oh, yeah, to sign or not to sign the petition! do one or the other and lets get back to the sex talk, the sex surveys, and the sex rants and ravings!!! o, lordy, it must be my hormones talking, i am so damn horney!!! :rolleyes:

i would rather stand and die, then to kneel and live... (or something like that?!) e. zapata

[his wife]

I can't help but realize no one has addressed Herbwomans statement that this went on all throughout the '90's (Clinton Era) and have maintained the typical "my party is better than you party" tunnel vision.

And what is this crap with "private lives staying private"?? It sounds like some people need a freakin kindergarten education on the internet if they think ANY aspect of the internet is private (it was created by the government and top schools to "share information" you know).

:

Before bashing a person's thoughts you may try reading the whole post, seems to me they were saying pretty much the same as you.

It's been going on, and will continue.

As to whether or not this petition gets sent anywhere, who knows, but I doubt it will make much difference. Did I sign it? Not telling, but if I did, I did it on the internet, so everyone must know by now.

[ambi53mm]

You can’t overcome fear based ignorance with words anymore than you can instill courage into the heart of a coward. Two wrongs will never make a right. There will always be those that choose do to nothing but bitch and complain about the way things are, and leave the fight for protecting freedom to those of less words and more action.
So rattle your sabers…rant and rave all you like…To me it’s just boring prattle of the same old same old… I live Viet Nam every day of my life so don’t try and tell me about the price of freedom or what rights I should or shouldn’t stand up for..Just show the common decency of respect that not everyone views things in the same way…our experiences make us what we are…and there’s nothing either of us can say that will change that reality :2cents:

Ambi

[wss30152]

This bill may be for fighting terriost now but who knows how they will use this power later on. Only 2 more years of GWB, I hope in 2008 we dont elect another dick.

[JohnnyV]

Hi,

Just wanted to correct a few things posted by Herbwoman, the Cyclist Guy, and Dogwood, that aren't quite accurate.

The bill that Bush would like to pass is dangerous by itself and also more dangerous in combination with the Military Commissions Act of 2006. The present bill would allow him to eavesdrop with less documentation, oversight, and judicial review. The MCA of 2006 woud allow him to use the information he gets through these reviews, and hold secret hearings about people when the defendant isn't present, to label individuals enemy combatants. The defendant wouldn't have a right to a hearing to explain what he or she was saying or meant in the transmission that got intercepted. And once labeled an enemy combatant, the person could be held indefinitely without a trial, be denied access to a lawyer or any contact with the outside world, as well as transported to secret prisons in Central Europe, Cuba or anywhere else to be tortured.

This is not business as usual. I did not like Bill Clinton so I won't get into the predictable Bill v. Bush debates, but suffice it to say that Bush is now extending his powers beyond anything that mainstream Repubs or Dems had ever wanted in the past.

Since the creation of the CIA from the remnants of the OSS in the late 1940s, there has been a constant tension within the government over the balance of power in government. I think there was an imbalance, because covert operations like CIA and NSA often act like a government within a government; we as the citizenry have no influence over their decisions yet their actions -- like overthrowing the Chilean government or providing WMDs to Saddam Hussein -- backfire and we pay the price for things we had no say in.

So yes, there is a shred of truth in your perceptions that there has always been surveillance that clashed with the spirit of the Constitution. But to the extent that such a clash existed it was a problem, and we don't want to go further in that direction, as Bush is pushing is. To say that it's okay to accept these intrusions because we are in danger is to say that democracy doesn't work in its full capacity and therefore all Americans should be content to accept indefinite martial law. I am not content to accept that.

About the point of reading student and professor papers, as an educator I have to say that's a seriously dangerous problem. Currently the US defines people as "supporters of terrorism" or "enemy combatants" depending on how they give "aid and comfort" to the enemy through the beliefs they express. Not only does such a logic collide with free speech, it's also ridiculously ineffective at fighting terrorism because you are chasing after people's ideas instead of pursuing criminal activity -- the actual terrorists are not going to be publishing essays online but meeting offline to figure out how to blow things up. At different times, for instance, they have compiled a "profile" of the likely terrorist to include anti-Semitism, then defined anti-Semitism as anyone who criticizes the right of Israel to exclusive Jewish control and/or who sympathizes with the aspirations of Lebanese Shia or Palestinian Sunnis. Should I be deemed an enemy of the state because I write an essay criticizing the creation of Israel in 1948? Am I a terrorist because I think a Jewish life is equal in value to an Arab life?

Just a side note -- I am an independent. While I am enjoying the midterm change of power, I do not think the Democrats are without blame. Nor can we rest complacently while the Democrats hold these overextended powers in their hands, esp. if a Dem wins the presidency in 2008. A Clinton or a Bush or a McCain or anyone is dangerous with this much power in his/her hands. And my biggest long-term foreign-policy issue is with Israel; the Democrats are far more dangerously devoted to Israel than the Republicans, believe it or not. The Democrats are likely to use these extra powers to share information and aid with the Mossad, Israel's CIA, which I consider treasonous and anti-American, even terroristic. So it's the law, not the partisanship, which is the problem.

And as for this threat to our national existence from the "rag heads," you're going to have to calm down. We've seen where your hysteria and warmongering has gotten us and the majority of the US is tired of it. Instead of bashing France and Canada, maybe you should move to Israel and fight the good fight there. Leave us Americans alone.

J

[warmpuppy]

You are re-writing history, Lisa. There is no empirical evidence that Bush lost the popular vote in 2000. There were several million absentee ballots in a number of states that were not counted because the regular votes in those states were overwhelmingly in favor of one candidate or the other. Because of the electoral college process, where a candidate gets all of the electoral votes for that state if the popular count is in his favor, they don't want to spend the time or the money to count votes that will not alter the outcome.

Therefore, there is no way of telling who actually collected the most votes in 2000.




I find your thoughts on the issue interesting Dogwood, so much so I asked my husband to read it. One thing you said he had a comment on was when you said cast your vote, Jeff told me that the first term for Bush the majority of America didn't vote him in, he actually lost the popular vote. Now I'm not into politics by any means but seems to me we put a loser into the office, and I'm sure most think he is a loser :).

Also, like you, I have nothing to hide. But isn't there a reason that we call it our "private lives", should they be allowed to randomly select individuals for screening? Will this bill change anything, they been doing it and will keep doing it regardless.

Lisa

hugs n kisses

[warmpuppy]

I guess it depends on what is more important to the individual: Protecting your civil rights, or getting your ass blown away.

I tend to want to save my ass. If eavesdropping on suspected terrorists' communications will stop another 9/11 or two, then I say do it.

My privacy means nothing to me if I'm six feet under.

[Tocowboycub]

This says it all.....
http://aclu.org/pizza/images/screen.swf

[Tocowboycub]

...and seeing as how Canada has more in common with France than the USA, I am just fine with us trying to keep it from coming over here.

HUH ????? DUH !!!!!!!
Thanks for the good laugh. That's the most hilarious thing I've heard in a long time.
LMAO

[Lisa (va)]

You are re-writing history, Lisa. There is no empirical evidence that Bush lost the popular vote in 2000. .

No I am not trying to rewrite history, just passing on something that was told to me. I asked Jeff again and this time he gave me the numbers.
Bush - 47.87 % of the popular vote
Gore - 48.38 % of the popular vote
this is according to the Federal Election Commission

[LoveLion]

This says it all.....
http://aclu.org/pizza/images/screen.swf

I work at a call center for an American ISP, and I have to say this is not that far from the truth! I was amazed when I learned what I could pull up with only some ones phone number and even more suprised at how easily someone could call in and steal the information if they knew your phone number and bit about you. I was even mroe suprised with what I was so carelessly given the power to do to peoples information and internet connecitons as soon as I started working there. Ofcourse I would never abuse anything like that but Its kinda scary to think what could happen if the wrong person worked there or called in, and scinces theres hundreds of people working at the same center, who knows?

[canuckotter]

...and seeing as how Canada has more in common with France than the USA, I am just fine with us trying to keep it from coming over here.
...? WTF? Dude, do you have the slightest freaking clue what you're talking about? :mad: I mean, seriously, what the hell kind of delusional fantasyland do you live in that you believe that kind of horseshit? Have you suffered massive head trauma lately or something? Maybe been lobotomised?

As for the original topic... Here's something for the "My safety comes first!" folks: Could the police be more effective with these expanded powers? Yes, they could. But there are a dozen other things you could (and should) do first that would have a bigger impact on their effectiveness and don't involve raping your Constitution. You could start by trying to find ways to minimise the personal politics in the various agencies and finding ways to minimise inter-departmental rivalries. Next you could look at improved information-sharing processes. And so on, and so forth. Go take care of that and you'll find that your police have had all the powers they've needed all along.

[Doggie_Wood]

This says it all.....
http://aclu.org/pizza/images/screen.swf

that clipp was real entertaining. But I can't remember which movie inspired that clip.... hhmmmm.... Jonnie Nemonic ... no ... Running Man ... no ... NOW I REMEMBER - - - it was Total Recall --- LOL
The ACLU does do good for some in a very few cases . . but I rate them with the rest of the Lawyers who pray on peoples fear to get action on something (like that clip).

but that's another thread to be entirely.

Thanks for the laugh Cowboy :tongue:

:doggie:

[Tocowboycub]

...? WTF? Dude, do you have the slightest freaking clue what you're talking about? :mad: I mean, seriously, what the hell kind of delusional fantasyland do you live in that you believe that kind of horseshit? Have you suffered massive head trauma lately or something? Maybe been lobotomised?

Thanks, Canuckotter. I wanted to say something like you did, but didn't have the balls. Glad you did. Maybe people should actually travel beyond the boundries of thier own city limits to actually have a freaking clue about Canada (and the rest of the world).

Hey Dogwood. Glad you enjoyed that clip. :bigrin: .

[sointou]

As the court system has said, if we have no privacy, our freedoms are in jeopardy. It's not our right to freedom that makes us weak. It's our right to freedom that makes us strong and every time we weaken our rights we give the advantage to the terrorists and totalitarians.

[Slick Jackson]

Dogwood~~
As one of the "sniveling assholes" whom you urge to waken, I would like to point out to you that reacting to this government's assault on privacy is not simply a matter of liking or disliking the Bush family. If this, or any other, administration is given carte blanche to review our personal conversations, reading habits, and history of political affiliations they might just get the notion that we are worthy of their careful scrutiny with an eye toward squelching future public dissent--has nothing to do with terrorism or protecting our safety. Are you old enough to remember the Nixon gang's "Enemies List" or perhaps "Tailgunner Joe" McCarthy? American history is replete with examples of efforts by those in power to discredit or disenfranchise those who disagree with their policies, or who have the audacity to try and expose their corruption. Get a clue, man! Rights are like muscles--if you don't exercise them they wither and atrophy. We Americans like to throw that word "freedom" around a lot, but if we give up the freedom to live and speak as our convictions dictate, without wondering who might be making a tape of it, and for what purpose, then hell the terrorists have already won. We will have sacrificed our most basic principles out of fear.
Sorry, pal, but I'm WAY more afraid of Big Brother than of some pissed off radical on the way to his own funeral.


I know it's much harder to get back the rights once they are taken away....I have fought hard in my life to acquire less government intervention into my life, so I will sign the bill, but our dear dictator wannabe GW, would only make a signing statement along with the bill, so he could interpert it in his own way..but he won't be able to do as much for too much longer...

[LoveLion]

Originally Posted by canuckotter
...? WTF? Dude, do you have the slightest freaking clue what you're talking about? I mean, seriously, what the hell kind of delusional fantasyland do you live in that you believe that kind of horseshit? Have you suffered massive head trauma lately or something? Maybe been lobotomised?

agreed

[tommyswing]

I do agree that civil liberties are very important. I do wonder if we where hit again and lost a 100,000 people and our economy collapsed what would a lot of you would think then. You either get it our you don't, we are at war. In every major conflict civil liberties have been restricted, and theses restrictions are nothing compared to WW2 or the civil war. It should be noted the government uses a lot of the provisions in this bill on organized crime.

In this war intelligence is the key to preventing another attack I know I'm in the minority here but I would rather risk a government official looking at my hard drive then hundreds of thousands of people dieing in a nuclear or biological attack. If you think that statement is ridiculous you don't believe we are at war. And do not understand the seriousness of the threat. My fear is the majority of people now believe this way. Importunely this has happened to democracies before. During the rise of Fascism in the 1930's Europe ignored Hitler’s taking over country after country and mass murdering Jews. Of course in Europe the only good Jew is a dead Jew, many in Europe still hold those disgusting views today. Churchill was considered a barbarian for wanting to stop Hitler. It was not until Hitler walked into France and starting bombing England the populations of both those countries figured out there where at war. What is scary is we have already been hit and many still cannot figure that out.

[LoveLion]

America is at war, and its true that they have been hit. However, this does not really compare to WWII. The terrorists that attacked America in 2001 have nearly been destroyed. The war in Afganastan was a just war in rooting out the terroist cells, and the same terrorists no longer have nearly the same strength or resources to carry out any further large scale attacks. Its true there are still Terrorist left in afganastan (Which the Canadians are fighting because the Americans, for some reason even god cant figure out, have to focus on Iraq rather then the enemy that actually attacked them) but they are severly weakened.

The war America is in now (Iraq) is completly different form WWII. In WWII there was real threat against America. Japan acctual attacked America and there was always the threat of more attacks.In a situation like this it makes sense to give up liberties to win. However, in this current war there is no real threat against America. The enemy that attacked them is defeated and there new enemy (Iraq) has never attacked them and most certainly does not have the ability, weapons or resources to attack America.

People need to realize that the threat of terrorism has been blown way out of per portion and is now only used as an excuse to take away civil liberties. I understand that Sept. 11 was a devastating event that shook everyone's sense of security, but that threat is over now. And I dont think those who lost their lives in the attack would be very pleased to see where it has taken them.

After sept 11, Bush and the American government had a real opportunity. After the attack the entire world was behind America and ready to work together to destroy terrorism. This terrible event brought hundrends of nations together with a single goal of making our world safe and America should have been ready to lead them. But what happened? Instead of leading this just fight, the Bush Gov. decided to use it as an excuse to invade Iraq, part of his own agenda. The American Gov. abandoned their own just war in Afghanistan (one the UN supported and many countries joined in the fight), defied the UN and went off to fight their own little war for greed. And now we get th where we are now, the world is divided. All the countries that were ready to support American in its war on Terror are now against America again. The unity we had is gone and we have a mess of a war in Iraq. Good move Bush. Im sure the victims of Sept 11 are proud.

Further more, Any real threat of Terrorism on the level of Sept 11 is not going to come from a university student writing an essay, or an American citizen writing an email to their friend about how they hate what their gov is doing. The threat would not come form farmer Joe or Business man Glen phoning their mothers. IF there was a threat it would come from a major and well organized foreign terror cell. Invading the privacies of American AND Canadian citizens would not help in the least in this misguided War on terror, that got lost in the woods some years back.

Anyways, I got kinda fumed there, so sorry if I offended anyone, but thats how I feel about it.

[Long Duck Dong]

not being a american, nor been a conspiracy theorist, I tend to roll my eyes at the petition

i live in new zealand, 20 minutes drive from my house, is the * golf ball * a white large sized building in the middle of nowhere... it simply was a weather monitoring station....with the most intensive security I have ever seen.... you could get arrested for taking pics of it

27 years that building has been there and for 22 years the nz goverment denied what we all knew.... it was no weather station...it was a spy building, built for the purposes of monitoring trans pacific communication... built by the american government and funded by the nz goverment

couple of years ago the nz goverment finally admitted the truth... it is there to monitor ALL transpacific communication.....now the government used the excuse it was there to help prevent acts of terrorism and things like 9/11

now the interesting thing is that the spy station was built near 20 years BEFORE 9/11 and terrorism......
thats 20 years of spying on people....and if you think a recent petition is gonna do anything.... well that petition is like toilet paper near 27 years after ya shit ya pants

every transaction that is electronic or otherwise, is monitored, its a known fact... and its done illegally 90 % of the time.....so I am curious how a piece of paper is gonna stop something that is going on with or without your consent

[ramboan69]

Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both. -Ben Franklin

[LoveLion]

Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both. -Ben Franklin

GREAT quote! I really like that.

And in response to Long Duck Dong: I agree that the petition will not do any good. Theres no harm in signing it and if you believe in it you should sign it (its the same idea as voting for a candidate you believe in but has no hope of winning an election) but It is not going to fix the problem.

Unfortunately, I cant see any realistic end to the problem. The people who care about it lack the will to do anything about it, or maybe there just arnt enough people who care. Theres been many people speaking out against it, but todays gov. dont listen to the voice of the people and just keep on doing what ever they want, saying "What are you gunna do about it?". The people of todays world have no more power over their government. If you defy them your labeled as a Terrorist or criminal and locked up, and even the democratic process is corrupt, yet still nothing can be done about it.

I think it ironic that America started with a group which would today be referred to as "radicals" defying their gov. in what would today be referred to as "Acts of Terrorism" (Boston Tea Party is a prime example). George Washington was considered a traitor to his government.

When you look back at the American Revolution you get these images of heroic men fighting against an oppressive controlling gov. for freedom. But then you turn on the Television and you see the exact opposite. Those who are trying for freedom are being ignored by the gov that is supposed to be based on the ideals of the revolutionists of old, and they go on day after day taking away more and more freedoms. more then a little Ironic

[canuckotter]

You either get it our you don't, we are at war.

I agree with the first part of that statement: you either get it or you don't. But you're not at war. You have no defined enemy; you have no specific goals; you have no-one to surrender to you. If you want to give your government crazy powers to invade your privacy because it's necessary to conduct the war, that's fine -- but first you need to be at war.

Handing over that kind of power just because you're scared of terrorists -- a massively exaggerated threat, by the way -- is an incredibly dangerous road because once you've given over that power there's no point at which the government is forced to relinquish it. At least with a war, you know what victory means, you know when the war's over and you can go back to your old lives.

Terrorism isn't a war, because there will always be terrorists and the government will simply keep saying "Now the war is against this other group over here". If you give up your rights in the name of fighting terrorism, you will never get them back.

The US should be a shining beacon of hope and courage, not a cesspool of fear.

[gh05t]

"Big Brother" Bill

Ok here we go....

Yes these laws pass obscene powers to authorities BUT:

In the absence of any superheros coming in to overthrow the US Government & put an end to the permanant war just yet. We must all take a little responsibility here to make sure they gain as little as possible.

Your privacy is YOUR concern, no one else can be blamed for what you leak out about yourself on the internet or in email.

If you are concerned, then learn how to use encryption properly..

You are responsible for your privacy.

An unencrypted email should be regarded in the same way as a postcard, it is open for anyone to read in transit, not just a government, but any system administrator, script kiddy, packet sniffer or anyone else that cares to look.
Properly used, 128 or 256 bit pgp encryption is good enough & you can be pretty sure that no 3rd party will be able to read your mail.

You are responsible for your privacy.

Once your picture or information or thoughts (such as this forum post) have been posted to a website, you must realise that they are no longer in your control, so think very carefully about what you divulge and bear in mind that tracking a user over a period of months can reveal much much more about them than they have consciously given away.

You are responsible for your privacy.



:soapbox:

Love ya all!
Stay safe.
:cool:

[Doggie_Wood]

"Big Brother" Bill

Ok here we go....

Yes these laws pass obscene powers to authorities BUT:

In the absence of any superheros coming in to overthrow the US Government & put an end to the permanant war just yet. We must all take a little responsibility here to make sure they gain as little as possible.

Your privacy is YOUR concern, no one else can be blamed for what you leak out about yourself on the internet or in email.

If you are concerned, then learn how to use encryption properly..

You are responsible for your privacy.

An unencrypted email should be regarded in the same way as a postcard, it is open for anyone to read in transit, not just a government, but any system administrator, script kiddy, packet sniffer or anyone else that cares to look.
Properly used, 128 or 256 bit pgp encryption is good enough & you can be pretty sure that no 3rd party will be able to read your mail.

You are responsible for your privacy.

Once your picture or information or thoughts (such as this forum post) have been posted to a website, you must realise that they are no longer in your control, so think very carefully about what you divulge and bear in mind that tracking a user over a period of months can reveal much much more about them than they have consciously given away.

You are responsible for your privacy.



:soapbox:

Love ya all!
Stay safe.
:cool:

Well said gh05t - well said

:doggie:

[gh05t]

Cheers Dogwood ;)

[LoveLion]

Originally Posted by gh05t
"Big Brother" Bill

Ok here we go....

Yes these laws pass obscene powers to authorities BUT:

In the absence of any superheros coming in to overthrow the US Government & put an end to the permanant war just yet. We must all take a little responsibility here to make sure they gain as little as possible.

Your privacy is YOUR concern, no one else can be blamed for what you leak out about yourself on the internet or in email.

If you are concerned, then learn how to use encryption properly..

You are responsible for your privacy.

An unencrypted email should be regarded in the same way as a postcard, it is open for anyone to read in transit, not just a government, but any system administrator, script kiddy, packet sniffer or anyone else that cares to look.
Properly used, 128 or 256 bit pgp encryption is good enough & you can be pretty sure that no 3rd party will be able to read your mail.

You are responsible for your privacy.

Once your picture or information or thoughts (such as this forum post) have been posted to a website, you must realise that they are no longer in your control, so think very carefully about what you divulge and bear in mind that tracking a user over a period of months can reveal much much more about them than they have consciously given away.

You are responsible for your privacy

Privacy is our concern to a point, as in if we post a picture of ourselves on the internet, we cant expect that no one will look at it. However, when the gov. or anyone else is invading on our privacy this is EVERYONES concern. Your saying its ok for anyone to invade anyones private info and its only the original persons responcibility to protect it. Your saying that if a man watches me having sex with someone from a hole in my wall, its my fault for having a hole in my wall and the other man is totally justified in doing so.

Privacy is a socially co-operative contract. We respect others privacy and they respect ours. It is up to both you and everyone else in society to maintain your and everyone else's privacy.

If you find a letter on the road thats fallen out of the mailman's bag that belongs to your neighbor, your not going to read it and it would be a breach of the social contract of privacy to do so. Any decent human being would respect your neighbors privacy and return the letter.

The same goes for Email. Here we have a great new technology that offers a safe and secure way to transmit info quickly, and we are ruining it. It is just as much an invasion of privacy to read someone's email as it is to open the letter on the road. People are going to stop expressing their views freely in emails or other forms of info transition because they are afraid of being labeld terrorists. Invasions of privacy like this are just a way to take away our freedom of speech.

Another problem: look at things like SPAM. all the spam email you get is because someone is breaching the social contract and giving out your personal info to companies against your will. The same goes with Telemarketers. Some where you are asked for your email on a ligitamite site, and then the next thing you know your email is being sold to spammers with thousands of others. This also spreads viruses that can destroy your computer.

Sorry Gho5t, but everyone is responsible for everyone's privacy. As soon as people breach it, it makes it ok for others to breach it and suddenly privacy as we know it is gone. Because it is impossible to maintain one's own privacy without the others respecting it. How can one man keep anything private from everyone else in the world when they are all trying to get it?

[gh05t]

I don't intend to dis you lovelion, please don't get offended at a rebuttal but I'm going to excersise my freedom of speech!

In a perfect world, everyone looks out for each other & have nothing but the greatest respect for each other.

That's beautiful, but just a little bit utopian.
This world is far from perfect, if you think that anyone else is going to have your best interests at heart, you are bound for some nasty surprises.
To have technology work for you, you MUST understand the technology, it's weaknesses & it's strengths otherwise the technology will enslave.
By example:
"email. Here we have a great new technology that offers a safe and secure way"
Email is ANYTHING but safe & secure, it is almost the digital equivilent to an old fashioned "party line" telephone system. Except that for me to email you, it could involve that message passing through literally hundreds of machines in many different countries, and all in plain old english, and, in many cases even leaving copies of itself on their hard drives for anyone to read that cared to look as it passes through.

Yes privacy is EVERYONES concern, but start with looking after your own privacy first.

"How can one man keep anything private from everyone else in the world when they are all trying to get it?"

By knowing how to, education is always worth the effort.

Be good now!
:cool:

[LoveLion]

First off, No offense taken. I love expressing opinion and listening to others, and I love a good friendly debate to :)

I would like to correct a couple of things in my last post and elaborate a bit on my meaning.

The comment where I said "email. Here we have a great new technology that offers a safe and secure way," this was subjecting an ideal. really what it was saying is "Here we have a great new technology that could easily and should be a safe and secure way to transfer info. and letting it fall victim to all the invasions of privacy is a terrible waste of this great technology."

Next, when discussing the social contract of Privacy, it does exist in reality and is far from Utopian. There is of course the respect for each other that drives it, but we all know that respect only goes so far and often breaks down. The other big thing that keeps this social contract going is fear and paranoia. We don't invade each others privacy, because we are terrified that once we do, it would mean others would invade ours. Its like the whole Cold War syndrome. In the Cold War both Russia and America kept building up bigger weapons and bombs to fight each other, but the weapons became so big that each country was afraid to use theirs on the other for fear of what the opposing country would drop on them. Heres another more direct example. In my grade 12 philosophy class, we were studying the idea that humans ability to lie holds society together. Our teach had us do an exercise where for one whole day none of us could lie about anything or deceive anyone in any way. Obviously someone could break the exercise and just lie without consequence, but most people in the class were genuinely interested in the topic and wanted to do it. So here we had a full class of Students who could ask each other ANYTHING and would get a perfectly honest anwser, the ultimate lack of privacy. However, no one asked anyone anything. Why? Its was the fear that once someone asked the person next to the "whats your most guarded secret?" that the person after answering, would turn around and ask the same question back at the original asker. Everyone know that everyone in the class had a secret they dont want getting out and everyone know that they could find out anyones if they wanted. But the social contract of privacy held out, and no one asked these questions out of either respect or fear.

So now we get to the real world today. The government has begun to breach this social contract. And because no one can get private info from the gov. the gov. has no fear to drive them. Therefore, the gov. needs to relay on their respect for their people to keep the people info private. And there in lies the problem: The gov. has no respect for its people.

Further more, when the gov. starts invading privacy, then it makes it ok for private citizens or corporations to do it too. When a citizen's privacy is breached and they cant "get back" at the gov. by invading their privacy, they turn to other citizens to steal their privacy. And of course, the gov is also setting a poor example for its people when it comes to respecting people's privacy

[gh05t]

Took me a little bit to think about that Lovelion, all in all I think we are on the same team but approacing from different angles, I am more concerned with the immediate technical approach, which I see as the most direct route. You seem more concerned with the bigger social issue here. Kudos.
Interesting concept, that of social contract, from where I sit, it works up to a point but once there is enough people to be able to hide in the numbers, it falls apart.
Think of a small country town Vs a big city, you are generally safe to leave your car unlocked in a small town but would you do that in a city? There is more at work here than just being more people, because there are more people, the "social contract" fails to bind in the same way as it does when everyone is no more than a couple of degrees separated from each other.
Just my :2cents:

:bigrin: