The Gay scene and Bi attitudes towards it

[smokey]

I think I have made my feeling of disconnect from the gay scene rather clear on this site. I may be an actively bisexual man but I find the whole "gay"thing a major turn off (if that is the correct word). I am interested in people, not a pose. Hell there are even guidebooks on how to live the gay life. Give me a break. So lets discuss it. How do other bisexuals here relate to to gay scene (as it stands) or don't as the case may be?

[sammie19]

I dont particularly. I do attend a number of Gay events and do go to gay and lesbian places but am not one who frequents the gay scene per se. Partly it is because it isn't my thing but mainly because so many gay people are vociferously anti bisexual. I would even hazard a guess at the majority. In this I do hope I am wrong.

I have suffered a good deal of hostility from sections of the Gay community and it saddens me that an often persecuted minority treats another such minority not with solidarity but active hostility. I know it is not every gay or lesbian who does this and I have so many wonderful friends in the gay and lesbian community, yes and have had lovers too from among them. But so many do not even believe bisexuality exists and/or will not accept that it is a valid sexual state, while others condemn its' morality and give us a really hard time.

The gay and bisexual communities have far too much in common to feel acrimony towards each other and I feel none whatever against them. So I do go to gay events to show solidarity with them even if many do not feel that solidarity for the community of which I am a part and support and for whom they should feel kinship not antipathy. I shall continue to do so until the need no longer exists.

[smokey]

A bi man that I know said that he wouldn't mind the gay scene so much if there weren't as many queers in it. :bigrin:

[shameless agitator]

Like Sammie I go to a lot of gay events (pride & political activist stuff mainly) but don't feel any real connection. My beef with the gay scene is that everybody seems to be trying too hard to make themselves into some kind of charicature. The "flamers" seem to be trying to be girlier than any woman I would ever have anything to do with while the more butch ones seem to want to be paragons of machismo. This weird binary was actually what kept me in denial of my attraction to men for so long. I'm not particularly butch & I'm not a flamer so I figured I must be straight. I have found lots of gay people who don't fit these stereotypes, but they're not generally part of teh "scene" for teh same reason.

[glantern954]

My wife and I have many gay friends and regularly go out to gay bars to dance and have fun. The gay community is just as diverse as the bi community. So I think it is a little unfair to try and lump all gay people together under a "scene" or stereotype.

I know many bi guys that would not be seen at a gay bar for fear of being mistaken for gay. Why is that? It's because many times they equate "gay" with all of the negative stereotypes. This is actually a form of homophobia, or internal biphobia.

As bisexuals we spend lots of time feeling misunderstood and judged by our sterotypes, yet we often turn around and are guilty of the exact same thing.

I'm not pointing any fingers here. Just making an observation on some of my experiences.

[shameless agitator]

I agree with you Lantern. What I was getting at was how many gay people, especially those involved in the "gay scene" try to conform to those stereotypes. I think they're doing a dis-service to themselves & to teh gay population as a whole.

[LouiseBrookslover]

A lot of us will continue to play it straight until we're convinced that the majority of , or at least a sizable amount of, women are cool with it. I know I don't like scaring possible female lovers away.

It's not my attitude, but I must admit I'm willing to be less than perfectly honest and out if the alternative is doing without female companionship.

[jkl21019]

I have always had an issue with the gay scene. My wife I go to gay clubs at times and have many gay friends. The issue I have is that there is no bi to most gay men. I have come to catch more flack from the gay community than the str8 one on this. Most of the gay men I meet say there is no such thing is bi...you're just a gay man who doesn't want to come out. Nothing makes me more angry than this attitude. And, I find it A LOT in the gay community.

[glantern954]

I think that for some gay people it probably has something to do with feeling like you need to act, talk ,dress, walk, a certain way to be recongized by others in the group, or sub-group for that matter. I am sure it is easier for a gay guy to meet other gay guys if he is unmistakenly gay.

So some of the stereotypes that others see as negative are actually useful to them in some ways.

I think all humans do it in different ways to attract people they are interested in.


I agree with you Lantern. What I was getting at was how many gay people, especially those involved in the "gay scene" try to conform to those stereotypes. I think they're doing a dis-service to themselves & to teh gay population as a whole.

[LouiseBrookslover]

As everyone here knows, that pisses me off royally, too, jkl.

[ziggybabie]

I could care less about the "gay scene". It's like friggin high school. Immature and shallow, materialistic, etc. This is unrelated, or kinda related, but anyway, a friend of mine was getting shit a few years back, for having a few tattoos and spikes. Some uber-gay club fem type mocking him in a gay bar. Said something that really pissed him off, though I can't remember what, now.

But, I swear I don't get how some of those stereotypical anti-masculine type "femme supremacists" (lol) gay guys can talk too much shit about alternative culture or fans.

I mean, seriously, if not for guys like Marilyn Manson and Judas Priest or even Kurt Cobain, they might be getting their ass beat on a more regular basis. That's not a homophobic comment. I'm just saying that many artists like that have actually helped tolerance for gay people in society.

[12voltman59]

Over the course of my life--I have lived in a number of places that have large gay communities and therefore--"gay scenes" Such places include but are not limited to: Savannah and Atlanta, Georgia; Key West, South Florida (Miami, Ft. Lauderdale and the Palm Beaches, Florida; Orlando, Florida and San Francisco, Calif.

I say scenes because, from what I have observed--there are a number of ways to be gay--such as--drag queens, the hard core leather boys, the ultra "pretty beach buff boys", "house/electronica" etc...

Long before I had come to truly realize, accept and have some understanding that I had a side of me that had an attraction to other males--I was always accepting of those who were gay-I never disparaged them, put them down or used the ugly epithets that so many do use against them.

But--I knew that even though I had attraction to some aspects of homosexuality---I knew that the different gay scenes were not anything for me---

As someone else noted in a previous thread--it appeared to me that vast majority of gays were seemingly very much oriented on the purely physical--i.e--you had to look really, really good to be accepted--by whatever standard the respective gay scenes thought was good looking.

For instance-the "pretty boys" that seemed to inhabit Key West--they all pretty much had the same look in nearly all aspects--very slender body with absolutely zero body fat--they had to be blonde and all buff and tannned--not a bad look but it was a look that due to my genetics--forget diet or workout regime--I could never attain---oh yeah-they had to have huge cocks---

I found each of the varying gay scenes to be extremely superficial and shallow---it was even moreso than being in the "straight/hetero" scenes in those respective locales---which were already shallow and superficial enough.

When in college I did hang out in some gay bars in Columbia, South Carolina--mostly because I worked as a bartender and when we finally got the bar closed up--around 3 or so--the choice on bars was to go to the Dry Gulch Saloon--Columbia's version of Mickey Gilley's place from "Urban Cowboy" or go to a few gay bars.

We would mix it up as to where to go but we would often go to the gay bars because many on of the food servers were gay or lesbian--I liked those bars because I was with people I knew and liked and because they were just basically "bars" without much of a scene aspect to them.

Being a Jimmy Buffett fan and from having lived all those years on the beach or close to it--my favorite types of bars are more laid back ones that serve oysters, shrimp and other such foods--a nice selection of beers and they have Jimmy Buffett or other such music on the jukebox or soundsystem or they have a Buffett wanna-be playing live with his acoustic guitar in a corner of the place---

I am not much of a "scene" person of any kind really--so no gay scenes for me thank you very much---they are usually too damned noisy and oh yeah--they always seem to also center around some sort of drugs as well---another reason I avoided "scene" night spots of all kinds-not just gay ones....

Forgive me if what I said in this post regarding gays seemed to some as though I am guilty of sterotyping---I guess that in some aspects I may be guilty as charged---

It just did not seem to me that there was no place in the gay community for those who did not want to go out and be wild and crazy in the ways that they proscribed.

Any affinity I may have felt for homosexuals was negated by the fact that I felt they would have no place for me----

[DiamondDog]

I personally enjoy gay/GLBT/queer bars/environments.

I like them because they are a safe space where I can hit on men and kiss men and I'm a lot more comfortable in them. Plus I can talk about sexuality in a way that I can't with het friends, who while they may be accepting don't really get it and I can talk about things with gay/bi friends and nobody will be stunned/disgusted or act like it's "wrong" like het people do.

I'm also to the point where I'm honest about my sexuality and people who won't accept it or try to learn about it at least with an open mind how it's their problem and not mine. Or I don't really care if people assume that I'm gay since if I do pick someone up at a gay bar bar it will probably be a man for gay sex, or a prospect for a boyfriend. I've even met bi/het women that were nice, who I'd maybe consider dating, and who into bondage like me too!

I've made some good gay/bi/lesbian and even trans friends by going to gay bars and for the most part everyone is accepting of bisexuality.

Sure there are a few rotten apples in every bunch but don't let a few people spoil your enjoyment of life or cloud your experience.

I don't care if the people at bars aren't "straight acting" and just the word/concept of wanting to be "straight acting" is a form of subconscious self loathing and internalized homo/biphobia. But internalized homo/biphobia is something that we all supposedly have a bit of and carry around to varying degrees.

I am not saying that if you are anything other than het how you have to be a flaming nelly queen or a stoic butch cigar smoking leather daddy; but I do understand why people who aren't familar with the whole femme/butch dichotomy would feel weird about that, and I even know gay/lesbian people who get annoyed at the femme/butch extremes or the gay "community" in general.

I grew up around a lot of gay men and even guys who did drag, and I enjoy seeing people for who they are, not what they are. But even with all of this, I will admit even that even I was a bit of a lurker at first.

But like I wrote before, don't let a few people cloud your judgement of something. Also, I forced myself to talk to people and the truth is you make your own friends, or at least that's what I and several others have done.

People were even accepting of me when I was just coming to terms with my sexuality and I was confused about being myself when I identified with other orientation labels, was in sort of a limbo, and the terms I'd use to describe myself were all other words for bisexual.

[mistymockingbird]

I'm completely comfortable with the gay scene. In fact, the other day I tossed off a comment about how all of my male friends are gay. Upon further reflection, I realized that indeed, all of my close male friends are gay or bi. Not a straight one in the bunch. My women friends are more mixed, but my closest female friend is bi.

I've always been comfortable around the GLBT community. In part I think because I was exposed to a very out community at a younger age than most. Even more than feeling comfortable around other members of the community, I always felt a draw to the GLBT community in ways I didn't fully understand untill much later in life.


Plus I can talk about sexuality in a way that I can't with het friends, who while they may be accepting don't really get it and I can talk about things with gay/bi friends and nobody will be stunned/disgusted or act like it's "wrong" like het people do.

Yes! This is so true for me. I love that with my queer friends we can talk about all sorts of adult activity and no one really bats an eye. Around some of my straight and narrow folks, these topics are better left untouched.

When I go out dancing, its always to a gay club. There's one here in Seattle that I love. When I lived in upstate New York my regular party place was a gay club frequented by drag queens. I just don't have as much fun in straight bars as I do in gay ones.

There are stereotypes associated with every scene. There are people in every scene that are trying hard to be something they're not. I don't identify with the hets and I don't identify with the homos. But in my experience the homos are closer to me than the hets and have been more accepting.

[darkeyes]

Gays r gr8. Sum like ne 1 else can b right bastards but me have no complaints bout them really. Let em dress an act how they like. Afta all I duz. But me dress nice all the time. hehehe. Shud. costs me enuff. Some of them hav the style of some century old corpse an ther pongie stuff. oooo gross. Some tho looks really dishy. An smells yum 2.

Yea sure some harp on bout us bein tarts cos we likes it both ways but wtf? Its ther loss. But think Sam is wrong bout most of em bein like that. A row we will no doubt continue eh babes? Ya duz hav sum chip on ya shoulder bout em sumtimes. But ya r right bout lots of em thinkin we really gay. Silly sods.

Lots of gays an lezzies duz hav chips on ther shoulders 2. Ne opressed community duz an wy not? Centuries of bigotry an prejudice do that for em. For us 2 cos wile things r much betta still we gets sum stick from hets as well as sum gays. But we big boys n gels now. Time we stopped bubblin an skrikin an jus gorron wiv life an bein who we r. Serves no stupid purpose 2 moan bout it. If ya wanna moan do it in the sack. Wot we shud b doin is gettin on wiv em an not takin the bait wen folk get at us. Its discussion an argument an provin we hav the rite 2 b considered as a sexuality in our own rite that deserves respect an consideration. 2 many of us slag gays off for ther attitude 2 us. Wont convince em by that. Wot ne 1 win by slaggin? A punch in the mouth mayb.
Reinforcin ther prejudices cos of an incident.

So luv em. I duz. Luvs arguin 2 but tries 2 keep it good humoured. Even me duznt always succeed. Specially wiv the dickheads. An we have em 2. an str8s.

So get that chip of ya shoulder if ya hav it an jus live ya life. We r winnin the war against prejudice. Don let ya own prejudice lose it for us.

[Reprob8]

I think I have made my feeling of disconnect from the gay scene rather clear on this site. I may be an actively bisexual man but I find the whole "gay"thing a major turn off (if that is the correct word). I am interested in people, not a pose. Hell there are even guidebooks on how to live the gay life. Give me a break. So lets discuss it. How do other bisexuals here relate to to gay scene (as it stands) or don't as the case may be?

I am put off by the extremes we see in the gay community but for allot of people it is only once a year when they really cut loose so more power to them.

Never having done anything it is hard to tell but I think I am moderately high on the Kinsey scale (5 maybe) and have always sexually identified with men but I find overt camp behavior to be a complete turnoff. That said the only real grief I have with the gay community is that it expects me to forget that I love my wife, leave her, get an apartment in Seattle and start cruising. I think many bi people just pick a partner from the gender they are most attracted to then just try to ignore the other side of themselves trying to convince the world that they are straight or gay.

What I don't want to do is stereotype the Gay or Straight communities like they do us but it is almost inevitable.

[shameless agitator]

qwert

[shameless agitator]

qwertSorry about the gibberish, but the forum was being stupid & wouldn't let me read the rest of the thread until I posted something. :eek:

[JohnnyV]

The gay scene is cool overall. Gay politics is the only thing I have trouble with.

On the other hand, if there were a bi scene, which there is not, we wouldn't have to vent all our frustrations on the gay scene.

J

[Seeker72]

There is a bar in Portland that is Gay/Lesbain and Bisexual accepting, and I know of a few others dotted around town as well, that is as far I am willing to go.

It's a good atmosphere, there is no hatred even from the straight singles/couples that go there, it's a place to hang out and enjoy yourself.

[Tynary]

I've always liked the gay commumity. I always thought the idea of gayness was attractive. I knew what gay wa before I knew what bi was. I thought I was a lesbian for two years before I knew I was bi.
I think people should not stereotype others but I have no problem with people comforming to a certain stereotype. I like butch woen and feminine men and femish women and masculine men.
I support gays and lesbians to the very fullest and I love the gay community but this is why it upsets me so much when gays are hostile to bisexuals.
Although I often am a littke illogically frustrated with totally gay men and totaaly straight women cas I want everyone on the planet to fancy me. haha
Lv gays but wish they lved bis.

[Buck Naked]

Since we're talking about the "gay scene" I think it's reasonable to generalize to a certain extent. That being said, I don't relate to the gay scene at all because it represents behavior that is too effeminate for my tastes. Gay individuals are an entirely different situation. I’ve had several gay friends who were not effeminate at all but our friendships were outside the “scene” and I don’t know whether they acted differently at the gay bars or other events.

[12voltman59]

I hope no one took what I said as a put down of gays--it is not that at all.

About a decade ago-I had joined a Unitarian Universalist church---UU is a faith that is very accepting of and welcoming to gays.

I became friends with many of the gay and lesbian couples who were members of the church---they were all older then myself and many of them had been together as committed couples for many years--there was one gay couple who were both professional types-one was a full tenured professor--at a Catholic university--and the other a medical researcher who worked for a large government agency.

At that time--they were in their early to mid 50s and had been together as a couple since they were both in college.

There was a similar lesbian couple and it was a revelation to me that folks who were gay/lesbian weren't all out there living a wild--party, party, party lifestyle--they were people who were responsible, highly productive members of society and all that----

In the case of the lesbian couple---they were both professionals as well--one was an attorney and the other was also a college professor-they had adopted several kids and other than their work--their lives were focused on raising those kids---

Other than the fact that their "partners" were of the same sex--they were basically "normal"--down to earth folks---they were not into any "scenes"--just people like anyone else trying to make their way through life's up and downs--good times and bad--

[taurus]

k its my first time posting a reply to a forum so here goes. i have one gay friend that I complete stopped talking to because he refuses to except the idea that I'm bi. He told me that i was really gay and i just don't want to come to terms with my feelings, this really offended me because i don't try to "convert" or force him to go out with girls and i don't feel that its fair that he won't accept my sexuality but he wants me to accept his. so back to the topic i agree completely that the gay community isn't that excepting of bisexuals.

[Tynary]

THe gay scene is awsome. parades and bars rock. I like effeminate men. I quite like the idea of a bi or straight effeminate man or a kinda butch bi or gay girl. I wanna be part of the bi scene when I go off to uni. I want to go to parades and bars for straights or gays or bis or all of the above. I want gfs and bfs and maybe at the same time occasionally. I can settle down later. much later. I wanna party. Gay rocks, straight rocks and bis rock hard haha.

[darren2458]

said it before and i can say it again ;) and to just throw out a few here:

asians can't drive
black guys got rhythm
latinos are hotheads
jews love money (or is it that they are responsible for every war in the world? ;)
bis can't make up their minds

generalizing isn't inherently a BAD thing. stereotypes DO exist for a reason. assumptions aren't totally wrong - it's ACTING UPON those assumptions, stereotypes and generalizations that shows ignorance. when you act upon, or form a belief about a group, you are closing off your mind and THAT is the point that people become racist, sexist, homophobic, etc.

that being said, people are also the sum of their experiences. if someone has only had negetive experiences with the "gay community" then they might not like the "gay community" (i'm gay and BELIEVE me - i've been there before! lol). but with anyone - minority, majority, etc - you have to give people a little slack. when i'm dating i find alot of freakish gay guys out there... but i try to look at it like this:

in dealing with the "gay community" you've got to understand that there are ALOT of people who have been assaulted (physically and mentally) and ridiculed all of their lives - abandoned by friends and, in extreme cases, abandoned by their families... then ask yourself, how you might be if you grew up in that environment. maybe a little guarded? maybe a little "off the wall." the gay men that i know that are the MOST "out there" are usually the ones who are coming from years of abuse from their community.

personally i LOVE flamingly gay guys! but ONLY if it's natural (you can tell the difference between a front and the truth). there's something so endearing and cute to me, when i see some kid who's SO PAINFULLY gay that i just think, "oh you poor guy!" haha! the sad part is that most of them will be lucky to come out of the experience and NOT be bitter, jaded, and just as closed off to the idea that "everyone is different and it's okay" as their own communities have been to them for years.

[coyotedude]

I have a couple of thoughts about all this:

(1) To be blunt, some gays and lesbians are just assholes -- just like some str8's are assholes and some bis are assholes. Being an asshole is very equal opportunity -- it's a club that anyone can join, regardless of sexual orientation, gender, age, race, ethnicity, religion, yadda yadda yadda.

(I can just see the bumper stickers now: "Assholes - 2 B 1, Ask 1")

But I personally don't hold gay or lesbian assholes against the gay or lesbian communities as a whole.

(2) I have a hypothesis that I would love to get feedback on. My hypothesis is that some (although by no means all) gays and lesbians discount claims of bisexuality based on their own experiences in coming out of the closet.

For most of the gays and lesbians I have known, coming out of the closet was (at best) a trying process. For many of them, one of the most difficult and painful experiences was coming out to themselves.

I know one guy in particular who lived in denial for years. He didn't come out of the closet until his mid-30's; the joke among his friends was that he was the last to know he was gay. (He was quite disappointed when coming out to his friends, each simply shrugged and said, "yeah, we figured that out a long time ago....")

Perhaps some gays and lesbians equate claims of bisexuality with their own experience with denial. Perhaps they believe that by claiming to be bi, we still hold onto that str8 world a little longer, unwilling to face the truth of our sexual orientation. Perhaps some gays and lesbians do claim to be bi as part of their own coming out process.

If that's the case, I can see where it would be difficult to accept that bisexuality does exist, and that there are individuals who can lust for -- and more importantly, love -- men and women equally.

I dunno, whaddya think?

Peace

[shameless agitator]

I think your hypothesis is dead on. I've heard many people refer to bi-sexuality as a stop on the road to gay town. I think part of it oo is that they figure we can avoid a lot of the stigma & discrimination by having opposite sex partners, in effect being able to stay perpetually in the closet.

[Lorcan]

Actually the GLBT Center was cool to me recently in that they are now sponsering a Bisexual Support Group. I have yet to see how it goes, but i will be in more contact with the GLBT community. And i don't care what they think.... i got my foot in the door and i'm not leaving! :bibounce:

[darren2458]

hey coyote - i think i see where you're going with this - and correct me if i'm off...

in my experience coming out - i first started telling people i was bisexual, not gay... i was still trying to figure things out and, while i ALWAYS had attraction to men, i wasn't sure how i felt about women. (i was also 16 at the time ;) by the time i was 17 i was out and considering myself gay.

my experience in coming to terms with it is a little funny (to me anyway ;) in that i thought that EVERYONE was gay until puberty. in school they told us that when you go through puberty you start to look at the opposite sex in a sexual way... so i just assumed that, until puberty, boys liked boys and girls liked girls... it wasn't until i had body hair and all my friends we pairing off that i started to wonder why i was still attracted to guys ;)

but i digress... i think alot of gay men and lesbians come out as bi initially - perhaps as a way to "test the waters" and perhaps, as in my case, just to say SOMETHING while they are still figuring things out. and i have to say, mos of my friends who said they were bi eventually came out as gay... and yes, that probably breeds that thought of, "bi being the offramp on the way to gaytown."

incidentally, and i would like to know if this is common or not, i have also had friends who claim to be bi because it seems that they are ashamed of the part of themselves that is "gay." (to clarify, when i say "ashamed" i mean downright violently homophobic.)

i think (and i've said this before) that it's all a matter of understanding. it's hard for people to grasp that a person could consider themselves bisexual if they've always lived a gay or straight lifestyle. people need to get past the idea that everyone is the same - when everyone is anything but...

did that make sense? ;)



I have a couple of thoughts about all this:

(2) I have a hypothesis that I would love to get feedback on. My hypothesis is that some (although by no means all) gays and lesbians discount claims of bisexuality based on their own experiences in coming out of the closet.

Perhaps some gays and lesbians equate claims of bisexuality with their own experience with denial. Perhaps they believe that by claiming to be bi, we still hold onto that str8 world a little longer, unwilling to face the truth of our sexual orientation. Perhaps some gays and lesbians do claim to be bi as part of their own coming out process.

I dunno, whaddya think?

Peace

[Tynary]

I never knew that bi was on the way to gay town. As a young child I did like boys but saw why women were attractive, however the second at hit puberty and learnt about sex and stuff I had a desire for women but I said I was bisexual (just like the stereotype of bi to gay one might say (hey that rhymes)) but then out of shame of people saying i was doing it for attention I said I was straight then had two lesbian relationships and didn't fancy men and thought I was a lesbian (like a perfect example of bi to gay) even when I moved to a newly co-ed school where I was the only girl I thought I was gay for ages.
but then you could say I woke up to the fact that men are HOTies!! :devil: oh yeah baby. I fell in love with my best m8t :love: (a boy) (I'm over it now tho cas he didn't want me(I'm too hot for him to handle haha)) I still liked girls but I wanted guys to. I love men. they r sexy and I love tobe loved by all.

Also I have this issue where I really prefer male friends and need them in my life so its weird. but I'm 100% BI beautiful bisexual and I love. I'm not ashamed i wanted to be gay, tried to force it. bi is perfection for me. :three: