Malaysian Goverment holds seminar to teach signs of "gay"

[DuckiesDarling]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/7679949/Parents-taught-to-spot-signs-of-homosexuality



"It is a multi-religious and multicultural (event), after all, all religions are basically against that type of behaviour," said the official. The federal government said in March that it is working to curb the "problem" of homosexuality, especially among Muslims who make up over 60 per cent of Malaysia's 29 million people.
According to a handout issued at a recent seminar, signs of homosexuality in boys may include preferences for tight, light coloured clothes and large handbags, local media reported.
For girls, the details were less clear. Girls with lesbian tendencies have no affection for men and like to hang out and sleep in the company of women, the reports said.
Malaysia frowns on oral and gay sex, describing them as against the order of nature. Under civil law, offenders - male and female - can be jailed for up to 20 years, caned or fined.
Actual prosecutions are rare, although former deputy prime minister Anwar Ibrahim has twice been tried for sodomy, in cases he called political conspiracies.
He spent six years in jail, but the courts have since cleared him on appeal or dropped charges for lack of evidence.
Official intolerance of gays has been on the rise. Last year, despite widespread criticism, the east coast state of Terengganu set up a camp for "effeminate" boys to show them how to become men.
The latest seminar for the teachers and parents was run by deputy education minister Puad Zarkashi, his office confirmed.
Zarkashi wasn't immediately available for comment but national news agency Bernama quoted him as saying that being able to identify the signs will help contain the spread of the unhealthy lifestyle among the young, especially students.
"Youths are easily influenced by websites and blogs relating to LGBT groups," he was quoted as saying, using the acronym for the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender community.
"This can also spread among their friends. We are worried that this happens during schooling time."

[darkeyes]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/7679949/Parents-taught-to-spot-signs-of-homosexuality
I first heard of this from an email from a Malaysian friend I went to uni with over a decade ago.. she is bisexual and I wrote of her once in a thread and her sad tale...married, kids. typical Malaysian middle class mum... but still in love with the same (Arab) woman from all that time ago...tied and conditioned by her society to suppress any hint of her sexuality as much from fear of husband, family and society as anything else. as well as fear of losing her children....but her greatest fear is that any of her children are as she, and it terrifies her that these activities by the authorities will somehow out her own children in time... the Guardian did an article earlier in the week about it... most likely what it will do is give any children and young people a very hard time and probably most of them will be neither gay or bisexual...such is usually the result of such hit and miss policies of any state.. haphazard, unreliable bollox and the Malaysian government probably knows it... for fear and misinformation are useful tools in suppressing and oppressing a people.. however bad it is in the west, and relatively speaking it isn't.. in much of the world our kind has it much harder and we are almost helpless to do too much about it... not entirely.. but almost...

[darkeyes]

Aaahh I see... nowt to do with the US or UK or anyone nice and western so we iggie it.. ty Darlin' darlin' for raising it... this has nowt to do with the US either...http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/14/uganda-jails-briton-over-gay-play but does with the UK.. but very little is said even here.. few grumbles for the chattering classes. odd mutter of disapproval from a few western leaders.. but really not much.. I know well there is little we can do, but there isn't nothing we can do... about Malaysia, Uganda or anywhere else where the likes of us are persecuted... are we so isolationist and insensitive to suffering that we don't care? I have noticed on .com that over the years if it has no direct bearing, peeps iggie it.. they have no interest.. yet it does have direct bearing.. thousands of us go on our hols to these places every year..and thousands more work there, thousands more have families and friends there,.. a large percentage are bisexual or gay... and we bury our heads in the sand and don't utter a word.. we just let it be.. we still go on our hols and take up jobs there knowing for the most part we will be sheltered by the fact we are western, keep our heads down and say nothing, while thousands of our kind are hunted down and persecuted, even killed by regimes which are less than nice and which for reasons of their own implement bigotry and intolerance...... and it has direct bearing because these are people who have the same desires and wants as us.. the same wish to be free, to live and love with whom they want not channelled or forced into a life they have no feeling for.. with people they have no desire for...

This isn't the first time people on this site have shown lack of compassion or a preparedness to discuss an issue because it affects people if I may used an old hackneyed phrase, "in a far away land of which we know nothing".. I would add "and for whom we care nothing for we are all right Jack.. stuff u...". Yes I get angry and frustrated because so few of us seem to get worked up about these things...prepared to say or do nothing... and feel shame because we just let these people, people like us, get thrown to the wolves.. .com isn't alone in that.. it permeates throughout our societies and my shame and frustration at that is even greater as they sit and say nothing, do nothing and our leaders just allow persecution to continue and pay (if we are lucky) lip service to things were they to exist in our own lands we would be much less than quiet about...... what is so scary is, that by allowing such things to pass in these far off lands unchallenged, before long we may have to face them in our own...

[DuckiesDarling]

Fran, while I do agree there are times that people just don't respond to certain threads, I don't think it's because they don't care, but more because they have no idea what to say. It's enough for me they read them. Your link is interesting,I saw that story earlier as I was reading a link Duck gave me about a gay couple who got married right before one of the partner's succumbed to lymphoma. It never fails to amaze me how the rest of the world is just a click away, real time news and history unfolding before your webcamed eyes are something commonplace now. In a few years, we won't even have to go looking for something, it will automatically appear before us as it will "know" we are interested.

[SlimDandy]

Islamic Malaysia is only about 50 years behind the Christian rooted USA. Ignorance is like a very resistant virus!

[darkeyes]

U may well be right darlin' darlin', and possibly I am being unfair.. but over the years I have been a member of this site there have been quite a number of occasions where things go on in foreign places where is just seems to me no one cares.. it isn't simply the 2 threads in question but can think of a number of others which have elicited no interest. Several have been of interest to me personally because of friends I have who were or/and still are involved... others because it seemed to me to be of nominal interest or no interest because people could not easily identify with what is going on... I identify with such issues because I am human, and feel for any who share my world and have a hard time... I just find it so frustrating and infuriating and if I have been unfair I apologise.. but just as I could and do scream when in my country people ignore by their silence things which happen abroad I feel just the same here.. there is an old adage about silence meaning consent which I have never entirely accepted but it does have some truth one way or t'other... for by our silence when we see and know things which are patently unfair we tacitly consent to them because we say nothing...

Kate tells me I stress too much about such things for there is so little I can do about them.. and there is truth in her words.. but there is not nothing I can do personally.. even if it is just a message of support for those who are having it so bad to stop them feeling forgotten... but most of us can do more than that even if it is in the great scheme of things very little.. and occasionally, as with friends in Malaysia or Bahrain, I can do a little more, and as I told my friends in both countries, if they can get here, I will do a lot more.... and will help them both practically and financially as best I can to do just that..

[Long Duck Dong]

honestly.... why post a opinion about a situation when people just rip holes in anything that is said ?.....sometimes not saying anything is still doing something.... there may be people that are actively doing something in support of the LGBT in malaysia and other countries without wanting to draw attention to themselves or ending up involved in another forum * war *.....

the issue arises unfortunately, of what cause of action should be taken ??? tell a another country how to live in accordance with our beliefs ? tell people that their way of life is wrong ? pressure people to influence change that we deem, to be right ?

sorry fran, too many people are tired of being told what to do, how to live, what to wear, eat, think, read, watch etc.....and the last thing they want to do, is do the same thing themselves to others..... or to have what they do for others, thrown in their face while they are told they are wrong for doing so......

dammed if people do post, dammed if they don't post...... either way, its harder to go after the people that do not post, than the people that do

[Gearbox]

I can't stand watching wildlife docs where I'm made to feel guilty about being Human because certain species are dying out 'naturaly' or due to man etc.
There's nothing I can do, and as far as I'm concerned I'm not personaly guilty either. Although of course I want that to change, improve and we ALL live fairly reasonable existances (man & beast).

What Malaysian Government could teach us is that inteligence counts for nothing where beliefs are concerned, as they are not stupid. Knowing that, we should question ourselves and our own countries, as we'd like the Malaysians to.

[darkeyes]

Of course we should question ourselves and our own countries. that should go without saying.. for in theory at least we have more and greater opportunity to try and change things Gear.. it does not however take from us our obligation to try and do something where we see what we consider a wrong in other parts of the world.. I have never been so thin skinned as to object to people from other countries taking an interest in and making criticism of ours.. I may on occasion get a bit uppity if I think that criticism is unjustified just as those from other lands have every right to defend theirs against any criticism from me for the same reason..

Duckie's point has some validity about people not liking and being tired of being told what to do.. we also get tired about being told about what we cannot do and peoples in those and other countries are in large part being told that.. and being told who they can and cannot love or have sex with, how they can dress, what they can think, what theatre they can see, and denied many of the rights we take for granted... now we can sit back and say nothing and allow that to continue and hope that in time that changes or we can try and influence by supporting forces for change... yes we (may) deem something to be right or wrong... because people are of a different culture and in a different land should not prevent us from arguing that a wrong needs righted.. just as they have the same right to argue that in our own societies a wrong needs righted.. it happens all the time and so it should.. short of these fucking interminable wars which are extreme manifestations of it but also extreme manifestations of the wish of some to improperly dictate by force what should and should not be instead of having a civilised dialogue..

..and Gear... u can excuse urself for what happens to the wildlife of our planet if u so wish.. I know I couldn't and don't excuse myself even although I am active in several wildlife campaigns.. for 'bout the flora and fauna with which we share our planet, contrary to what u say, there is a great deal we can do, all of us... from making a career of working for wildlife conservation, to voluntary work helping to save red squirrels, as I do work to save and help expand the Caledonian forest and for the pine marten, crossbills and eagles, Kate does for whales and porpoises, to help save habitat for endangered native species, to planting our gardens (if we have one) with plants and flowers to encourage bees, butterflies and other insects and so help the birds survive and ourselves for we need the pollinators if we too are to survive.. hanging out peanuts or wild bird food, putting out a little cat food for hedgehogs, to not using bleach in our sinks and toilets.. . many people do a great deal.. but all of us could and should do more... once our wildlife is gone we will well and truly suffer for we need them far more than they need us... sorry.. I have gone right off the subject.. will shurrup for now.. *laffs*

[Gearbox]

Yes but Fran, when you were going around doing all this 'Save mother Earth' hippy stuff, you were driving a car!:yikes2: You are killing me and the planet...!cough!...!Wheeeeeeze!....:upside: No such thing as 20% non fatal.lol
I'm a hippy, I've done and do that kinda thing (cars excluded). I still can't go out to Malaysia and teach them how to ease up on their sex views.

What can we do? Should we e-mail the primeminister and tell him to sort it out?
And please.....!cough!.....!choke!...!gasp!....just inject us with poison and speed it up.:kiss:

[darkeyes]

*laffs*.. indeed so Gear.. touche... some evils we need.. doesn't mean we can't do something 'bout even cars..and in little ways and less little ways we do...not enough tho I freely admit.. don't think very many of us do enuff 'bout cars.. but I don't love my car or cars.. they are but a means to an end...in part luxury in part necessity... but as a supporter of and contributor to Friends of the Earth I do me lil bit to do summat 'bout cars.... and Gear.. it doesn't mean u have to go out 2 Malaysia and teach them 2 ease up on their sex views, but u can do ur little bit to help those who are gonna suffer for it.... letting them know they haven't been forgotten is very little, and the occasional little thing to try and stop them from being forgotten is another... they have the net too u know... and some will look at this site among others about bi and homosexuality (and at least one I can think of is actually a member of this site)...Me point is that there are little things u can do even about most things time permitting... we cant do or involve ourselves in everything... cos none of us are that good or smart and we all have our priorities for good or ill.. but in little ways, where we can, there is usually something we can do... and if everyone does a little.. it is a helluva lot...

..and emailing the PM? why not? Peeps do.. I have.. don't really expect it to work but as part of a larger campaign it has its value.. spesh if he gives u a shitty reply.. many a slip as they say... but u have councillors, MPS, Welsh Assembly members, MEP's, trades councils, ur own trade union if u have one, Chambers of Commerce, local newspapers, national newspapers, even radio and telly... from little acorns, Gear dear.. don't knock it... what else for instance stopped the flogging off of England's forests?

[tenni]

"This isn't the first time people on this site have shown lack of compassion or a preparedness to discuss an issue because it affects people if I may used an old hackneyed phrase, "in a far away land of which we know nothing".. I would add "and for whom we care nothing for we are all right Jack.. stuff u..."


When I first read the OP, I thought that there was nothing to comment on or action being suggested or question connected. I would agree that we may lack compassion for their plight. They are in a far off land under a different culture. If someone is going to "do something" it is often best to do it at home. It may be safer to sign a petition heading to the UN. In my country, lately the government has been ignoring protests even about our own political system. People vote them back in. We are either dumb or like the quote don't care..or care about other things.

Just how important is it for me what sexuality issues Malasya (sp) has? Not a lot. I commend those who do something whether it is about eco issues or sexuality issues. I do find that this site doesn't have more than ten posters who seem to care about sexuality issues from a political sense. I may be wrong.

[darkeyes]

Tenni.. I know I expect too much.. I feel things intensely and some things more intensely than others.. it is just who I am.. I know myself to be opinionated..know I harp on about things too much and sometimes don't know where or when to stop.. badger, hector and get on peeps tits... can't help that either but do try and curb the worst of it.. we all have opinions about whether or not to take up the cudgels on any issue, and some of the strongest are on issues affecting countries other than our own...

...but on the issue of Malaysia and sexuality, and Uganda and sexuality, both affect both u and I more immediately in some ways rather than the US or anywhere else since both, like our own, are paid up members of the Commonwealth and they are not alone in having policies on sexuality with which both of us and our countries should have difficulty.. within the Commonwealth is a ready made block of states which oppose homosexuality and by extension bisexuality and can have a real influence in the wider world community... should this give us concern? Of course it should, since not only do both our countries have large scale immigraton from the Commonwealth but many hundreds of thousands of people whose origin lies in those countries and we have to enlist their support if we can, for if we do not potentially we set for ourselves a time bomb of anti lgbt intolerance I think we cannot ignore..

Of course other countries round the world have similar views to that block within the Commonwealth, but the Commonwealth provides them with an extra and extra platform to mobilise against our kind... neither within or without the Commonwealth are all those countries Islamic... Uganda is not Islamic, neither outside of the Commonwealth is Russia where legality of homosexuality hangs by a thread and may yet disappear.

Please understand I do not wish to overplay the Commonwealth and its importance, but it does have influence and importance both to its members and to those outside of it who are not... I can be a pain the the arse I know that.. and do expect far too much of people.. but as I said in effect in #3, we ignore what happens elsewhere at our peril because by doing so we may yet have to face the same in our own societies.. just as there are those in those other societies who would support the lgbt, there are many in our own who are hostile and who will be encouraged by those developments abroad.. in the global village we can no longer treat events in isolation wherever they are... the world is just too small... so I would argue that contrary at your opinion of what happens in Malaysia as having no importance to you that it is of far more importance than u realise... I agree that it is best if change comes from within a society, but..

...any movement for change in the struggle to eliminate oppression needs support from outside and those of us who are gay, lesbian or bisexual should play our part, however great or little that support may be, in letting our kind in countries hostile to our very existence that they aren't alone or forgotten... do more if we can, and how much more is for each of us to decide, but that is the least we can do... u can bet ur bottom dollar that the forces within the likes of Malaysia and Uganda resistant to change get support from outside... can.. dare we do any less?

[Gearbox]

"~ Beneath this mask there is more than flesh. Beneath this mask there is an idea, Mr. Creedy, and ideas are bulletproof.~" - 'V' for Vendetta.
Your absolutely right Fran. Ideas are powerful, and if those Malaysian LGBT get the idea that they are not alone, nor 'faulty', but feared, who knows how strong they'd become?:)

"Youths are easily influenced by websites and blogs relating to LGBT groups," he was quoted as saying, using the acronym for the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender community.
"This can also spread among their friends. We are worried that this happens during schooling time."
'Schooling time' it would be too.;)

[darkeyes]

"~ Beneath this mask there is more than flesh. Beneath this mask there is an idea, Mr. Creedy, and ideas are bulletproof.~" - 'V' for Vendetta.
Your absolutely right Fran. Ideas are powerful, and if those Malaysian LGBT get the idea that they are not alone, nor 'faulty', but feared, who knows how strong they'd become?:)

'Schooling time' it would be too.;)..and schooling is about letting the world know that the lgbt is not to be feared but to be allowed to be... that they are not perverted, monstrous or abominations.. merely natural born humans wishing nothing more than to be allowed the same rights, privileges and obligations as everyone else in Malaysian or any other society.. :)

[Long Duck Dong]

what do the lgbt malaysian people think, fran.... do they want us to jump up and down and holler from the rafters, or do they want us not to rock the boat cos it would make it worse for them ?

there are rarely any prosecutions cos the LGBT do not make themselves visible as targets, any action drawing attention to them, would stir up attention, but generally the government ignores the LGBT for the most part, and believe me the LGBT lifestyle over there is anything but discreet... the sex action is illegal, not the sexuality....

I am not sure if you remember the thread and article that was posted about a year ago in the site about the LGBT in a middle eastern country and how they were facing the death sentence, and the video that was posted featuring some LGBT people that said as long as they are discreet, they are left alone, the government doesn't want the LGBT to be visible and in peoples faces, and in return the LGBT were not targeted.... it was the LGBT that pushed the limits that became the targets of the police.....

there are times when its best to make sure that people want action taken on their behalf, otherwise its very possible that in a vain attempt to make things better, things are made a lot worse... and its too easy to say " hang in there and just endure the beatings and imprisonment while we make a stand for you cos we want to feel that we are doing the * right thing * for you ", so some people have to suffer while we fight on your behalf ".....

there are times when letting sleeping dogs lay, is the better option..... unless of cause, you want to go to malaysia yourself and stand on toes over there......

so fran, what are you standing up for.... your own agenda... or the people that asked you to stand up for them ?

[darkeyes]

I am not asking them to stand up for anything..I am asking that outside of the country we show them that they have friends outside of Malaysia.. I know just one Malaysian.. and know she is afraid not for herself but her children and what this "spying" may mean for them.. any agenda is not my agenda, but the agenda of tolerance, compassion and human decency.. the agenda of the right of human beings to be who they are.

[Long Duck Dong]

its politicking, fran...... the word out of malaysia is that its a fringe group of people that want to try and look like they are doing something about the * immoral * behievour of people as there is a shift in ideas within malaysia.... and the conservative muslims are losing their stranglehold on things.... so this is a attempt to do something about it......

its something I am watching with interest as more and more muslim people around the world are starting to pull away from the extremist / conservative muslim ideas...... and the muslim religion itself is splintering as more and more modern muslims are questioning the old ways....... it is going to take decades for some things to change but the change is coming from within the muslim community.....in the same way that the christian community is really splintering over LGBT rights..... and those that are trying to retain the old ways, are finding that they are starting to lose support from within their own ranks as some churches are divided over the * we are all gods children equally * and * god has issues with different people *

the trouble with malaysia and other conservative countries is they are not so much seeing equal rights, they are seeing epidemic drug abuse, suicides, teen pregancies, divorces and the multitude of other issues surfacing in countries that stand on equal rights, acceptance and tolerance......and they see it as countries that have lost control and society is up shit creek without a paddle...... so places like malaysia are trying to stop their society becoming as * corrupted * as other countries, in the same way that some churchs believe that getting LGBT rights will cause society to implode...........something that I am still waiting to happen as society has been imploding quite well without the help of the LGBT lol

[darkeyes]

I understand that, duckie.. but I don't agree with the use of the word implode.. a fractious society does not implode.. the more liberal a society the more fractious it is likely to be and to the conservative mind more likely to tear itself apart..but it is that very open-ness and fractiousness of the more liberal society, which if left to its own devices, prevents it from ripping itself asunder as people accept and try to understand the thoughts and views and ways of others.... a repressive conservative society is more likely to explode or implode than any one which is liberal... for all our problems, I would rather have to deal with the things u mention than the oppression and repression which exists in countries such as Malaysia.

Much of the anti homosexuality which exists in what was the British empire was imposed by the Victorian British and those who rule many of those countries now are products of the end of that empire and of the thoughts and moral standards of those old colonial masters.. what was imposed from outside can be undone by learning from outside.. we cannot impose upon another nation (although the beligerent actions of some countries may cause some to doubt this) or people our ways and our standards but by dialogue we can hope to influence and hopefully change those old and hoary moral standards.. just as tbh they will try to do to ourselves... and I have no problem with that.. it is what dialogue is for. Peoples of every country learn from dialogue with peoples of other countries every day... and it is soomething the pace of which speeds up as we become an increasingly smaller and better informed and much smaller, yet in other ways much larger, world...

[jamieknyc]

Whatever we want to say about it, in Malayasia an other Asian countries they see themselves as rolling back Western influence in their societies, and LGBT rights are only one more Western idea that they are in the process of eliminating. If you don't believe they think that, read the writing of Mahbubani.

[jamieknyc]

Whatever we want to say about it, in Malayasia an other Asian countries they see themselves as rolling back Western influence in their societies, and LGBT rights are only one more Western idea that they are in the process of eliminating. If you don't believe they think that, read the writings of Mahbubani.