Homosexuality in Saudi Arabia

[Brian]

A fascinating, very detailed look at homosexuality in Saudi Arabia: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2007/05/the-kingdom-in-the-closet/5774/

The Kingdom in the Closet
Sodomy is punishable by death in Saudi Arabia, but gay life flourishes there. Why it is “easier to be gay than straight” in a society where everyone, homosexual and otherwise, lives in the closet

By Nadya Labi

Yasser, a 26-year-old artist, was taking me on an impromptu tour of his hometown of Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, on a sweltering September afternoon. The air conditioner of his dusty Honda battled the heat, prayer beads dangled from the rearview mirror, and the smell of the cigarette he’d just smoked wafted toward me as he stopped to show me a barbershop that his friends frequent. Officially, men in Saudi Arabia aren’t allowed to wear their hair long or to display jewelry—such vanities are usually deemed to violate an Islamic instruction that the sexes must not be too similar in appearance. But Yasser wears a silver necklace, a silver bracelet, and a sparkly red stud in his left ear, and his hair is shaggy. Yasser is homosexual, or so we would describe him in the West, and the barbershop we visited caters to gay men. Business is brisk. ....

....More.... (http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2007/05/the-kingdom-in-the-closet/5774/)

- Drew :paw:

[tenni]

I found that the article made several interesting points. The first is about homosexual acts and how they exist in Saudia Arabia. What is formally not permitted and scorned and how it seems to be overlooked if done more privately.

The most interesting aspect for me was how it was defined as to who was homosexual. The bottom being penetrated was seen as a homosexual act while the top was not. The separation of homosexual acts as being separate from sexual identity is interesting. Frequently, on this site people object to labelling. Others refer to self labelling as being the most appropriate. Here we have sex acts separated from sexual identity. I've frequently thought that a guy who sucks a dick more than once or certainly more than ten times may call himself a hetero but really now,...is he? His behaviour indicates non heterosexual behaviour and he may claim purity..or if he gets his dick sucked by a guy he is hetero and if he sucks a guy he is gay...following Saudia Arabia's position on it ;)

[darkeyes]

I have a number of arab friends mostly Barhaini from my earliest uni days, some of whom I remain in contact with to this day.. so I am a little familiar with how homosexuality and same sex relations is viewed in the arab word and in much of islam.. I found the article interesting and does coincide with what I learned from my Bahraini friends, all of whom know Saudi well.. none when I knew them considered themselves gay, nor did they ever admit to same sex relationships and indeed this remains the case to this day, but we did discuss it from time to time and so I gleaned a little about an arab view of sexuality... one Jordanian friend who lives in the south of England does so because he does consider himself a gay man as we would consider a gay man and feels more free and less restricted than even the "blind eye" which authorities often turn if the unwritten rules of much of the arab world are followed..... he is a "top" for preference, tenni, and this of course is at variance with the more normal arab view of what constitutes a homosexual.. there is a great deal on the net about same sex/homosexuality for both Islam and the arab world., and some about bisexuality if u care to have a lil surf...

I also have one Arab friend from another country who had a relationship at university with a girl from Malaysia.. it was a huge affair between the two.. yet both did not consider themselves gay either even if they were very much in love and were broken hearted when the time came to part and return home. This is interesting because emotional attachments and love are things which can make people labelled as homosexuals in the arab and much of the Islamic world....One I haven't heard of in 7 or 8 years, but the girl in Malaysia still writes, is married, has kids and is quite happy with the life she has... and even although she still sighs a bit for the days when she and the other girl were so close, she still does not consider herself gay or bisexual even if she is fully aware of and admits to her desires.. although being Islamic she never could to her husband or anyone else in her own country... what men can get away with in those countries is one thing..what a woman can is quite another in many instances... they have a different cultural view of what homosexuality, and bisexuality are.. it does not mean the same thing to them as it does to us.. both are relatively common, or at least not rare, as long as u follow the unwritten rules of the society in which u live..

[DuckiesDarling]

Very interesting and very thought provoking, Drew, thanks for posting. What struck me the most was the possibility that Western influences are, and probably will even more in the future, leading to an imbalance in Saudi Arabia. It was interesting to note that several commented that they are like men in prison. It's been debated on here before if a man has sex with a man in prison does it change his sexuality? Some think so, some didn't. It seems to be that as long as they "outgrow" their bottom period they are considered to fine upstanding men who go on to use other young people when they need sex but are no longer considered gay as they don't bottom. One thing did really strike me though the quote that it was "the land of sand and sodomites" and that older men were abusing youths. How young is too young there? There was a Frontline documentary that 12volt posted awhile back about the dancing boys. How they dressed them up as women then used them as women, it seems to be that the East is far behind in several issues regarding human rights. But does the West have the "right" to determine what the East does? We may not like it, but it is their life.. even if it's one of lies and being in the closet.

[innaminka]

One of the girls who works for me is Iranian. She came to Oz to marry a refugee in a (sort of) arranged marriage. (Very successfully, too)
Having a confirmed femme lesbian (my business partner) and myself (now labelled lesbian) as her bosses, the question of homosexuality has been discussed over coffees.
She knows nothing about "The Kingdom" except to describe it as barbaric and medieval, but in Iran homosexuality is well and truly a capital offense - if you flout it!
That's the important bit. Everyone knows there are as many gay Iranians as in other countries, but you can't hang 7-10 percent of the population, so as long as you don't openly show you're gay, or don't piss someone important off, you'll be tolerated.
Notice I didn't mention gay women. Homosexuality is a man thing.
Officially gay women doesn't exist. She knew a few at University in Tehran, but nothing seems to happen: relationships between women are very rare. they don't exist, and certainly don't have the public exposure that gay men do.

[elian]

This seems much the same way the ancient greeks and other native cultures practiced pederasty and like others I am well familiar with people excusing their behavior if they are a "top". What would have been interesting to hear is the perspective of a "bottom" .. the only thing the author eludes to is being forgiven for "youthful transgressions" later on in life.

Speaking of social experiments, do they still have a problem in China with "mostly men" where females are discarded? As it turns out not valuing females becomes a bit of a problem when the men start feeling lonely, or the nation needs to ensure its longevity. I see a headline in google for "40m bachelors and no women by 2020".

[darkeyes]

Not so much discarded as aborted Elian...

[Gearbox]

I think it's a good idea to make m&f sex more serious than same gender sex. It can create life, and that IS pretty serious.
Same gender sex seems to be viewed as an outlet to sexual frustration due to that regard for m&f sex, and for many that's what it is. I don't see why it's a crime to enjoy it though.LOL!

As a top I've wondered what that might indicate about my sexuality. I do the same things with m&f, and it would be easy to delude myself into thinking that I just like doing my 'hetero thing' with men. That would be utter bolox of course, because I love the male form for what it is, and not because I'm forced into it. If it's just a hole I want, there's a perfectly nice goat in my garden.:yikes2: NO!! I have no sexual thoughts about goats!lol I have sexual thoughts about men, and so do everybody who tops men too IMO, whether their in prison or in Saudi Arabia. That doesn't make them hetero!
I'd waver that bigoted view of sexuality only IF I could see what was in the mind of the top when he's balls deep in a bloke. If he truly convinces himself that he's topping a woman, and that's the only way he could enjoy it, and cum, then I'd say that top is pretty hetero. Same goes for a bloke who sucks cock.lol Being blown too.

It's not what goes on with our bodies that really counts! It's what's going on in our minds at the time.;)

[Long Duck Dong]

lol gearbox...... nice way of working it out...... but now add this into the mix, a man with a female that he is not married to, is dangerous in saudi arabia.... and based around the reaction of one of the males in the article, he was more concerned about being seen with a female, than being gay......

it comes across as its safer for a guy to be balls deep in another man, than be with a female and run the risk of being caught or getting emotional involved with her....

I am not sure if that aspect of looking at it, is realistic or not... as I am not in saudi arabia..... but based around some of the posts in the forum, m/m sex is seen as no strings attached sex, without the hassle of finding a woman for sex, so I am going to assume that it may be the same for some people in saudi arabia......

part of the trouble, in my eyes, is that people have sex with people that they are not really attracted to..... IE the person that looks good after 6 beers but OMG in the morning......and yeah there are times that people will go to bed with somebody that they have no interest in, just for the sexual release.......

where I see the difference in you is that you do have the attraction to males and females, you know what interests you, you know what you enjoy and you do not have the cops breathing down your neck for doing it..... unless you are doing it in the wrong places..... and we all know that you would never do that...... lol

but like you say, and I agree, its hard unless you are in the persons head at the time.....and so much of what I am applying to the situation, is statements made by other people that ID as hetero, IE males that have sex with males..... and bearing in mind that in other threads, a lot of the arguments that no man would fuck another man unless there was attraction, has been made mainly by men that have sex with men and ID as bisexual..... yet in a lot of hetero forums, the guys talk about fucking butt ugly chicks cos there is nobody else to fuck and it would not surprise me if they would screw another guy under the same circumstances as long as they could walk away from the encounter like it never happened.... or NSA sex

[darkeyes]

:yikes2: NO!! I have no sexual thoughts about goats!lol
I quite believe u Gear.... bein' Welsh its the baaa lambs innit?

[æonpax]

Excellent article. Well written. One thing it unintentionally does is add confirmation to an already known axiom:


"It's still a man's world."

[darkeyes]

Excellent article. Well written. One thing it unintentionally does is add confirmation to an already known axiom:


"It's still a man's world."


Tee hee.. u lil stirrer... tell that 2 he who iggies Fran.. an a few othas..;)

[elian]

I quite believe u Gear.... bein' Welsh its the baaa lambs innit?

<sighs> my jaw dropped onto the lunch room table at work today when I read in the daily police arrest record that the police arrested someone in a local town for performing oral sex on a horse.. I just shook my head, now I need to think of some childish and immature horse jokes for when I go visit my friends up in that area.

[æonpax]

Tee hee.. u lil stirrer... tell that 2 he who iggies Fran.. an a few othas..;)
`

It's just that it follows the old gender duplicity of the west. The House of Saud uses Wahhabism to enforce a very strict social/moral order that is especially more heinous and deadly, to women. One thing the article mentions but glosses over is the sheer amount of pedophilia, child slavery and female sexual abuse that is being done, right under the nose of their so-called "morality police."

[elian]

Yes, it would be kind of interesting experiment if we did not have this gender duality. Unfortunately for certain men they have a continuous reminder in their pants that they are different, and they can't seem to be able to find a way to get over it.

[Gearbox]

@LDD- I have to add how difficult it must be to convince yourself that the man your topping is a woman.:bigrin: Unless he's fem, in drag, and has the physique of a woman, I'd say that it would be a pretty hard task. Initially anyway (not during!)!
It mentions boys dressed as girls in the article, so I expect that goes on for that purpose. But even so, those 'heteros' KNOW they are about to top a male. That there is no vagina to be had! So in a physical sense, they are attracted to the male for the use of sex. A tool!

BUT (here's where it gets kinda sticky.lol) in an emotional & masc/fem/sub/dom sense, they maybe fucking the sub/fem of the male, which may include NO attraction to anything male oriented in a physical nor emotional/sexual sense, and leaves the male pretty much a female in the mind of the top.:tongue:
If so,you'd have to wonder if he really was acting on homosexual or bisexual attraction to males. Or was he fucking Halle Berry in the same way he was fucking her if he used a blow up doll instead of the male person?
Btw, not many fuck a 'butt ugly' woman! They fuck Halle Berry, and wake up with a 'butt ugly' woman.;)
Same goes for blow up dolls, fleshlights, and own palms too. Nobody fucks those! Not where the mind is concerned!
The only attraction to them, are of a tool nature, to get to where the 'real' sex is going on. The mind.

That must be a very fragile 'tool mindset' for a m-m hetero top. Any deviation from the mental female subject, and it's "Hello bisexuality!".:!: Sucking cock would be a fine example of that IMO.lol