bullying people into accepting what they do not want to accept....

[Long Duck Dong]

interesting concept isn't it.... that we can try to bully people into accepting things as ok and acceptable...... but how does it work ?

Bullying to the understanding of most people, is the targeting of weaker / smaller or different people based around their race, culture, beliefs, sexuality etc. What about when it comes to acceptance of people, is it possible that we can bully others into accepting who and what we are, by using our own thinking that what we do, is correct? And what happens when the issue of acceptance is not one of people not accepting us but one of us not accepting ourselves?.

Take this situation: A father and son, the son is gay and the father was aware the son was gay. The father expresses to a friend about how they feel bullied by their son into accepting the sons sexuality. The father feels pressured by the sons continuous " Parading by my son, of his boyfriends, the constant kissing of the boyfriend when I walk into the room, the son making sure to mention about LGBT acceptance and that it is a families obligation to embrace their children, sexuality and all "

The son admits to the same friend later: " Yes, my first boyfriend was a older man and I did it more as a way of making my father see how wrong he is about LGBT people, to show him that I am fully capable of making my own life choices, so the other boyfriends were more outrageous. I want my father to see how wrong he is for his way of thinking about LGBT people. I want my father to change his way of thinking and be more accepting of me and my lifestyle "

some of the tactics that we can use with people in order to get them to see our point of view by way of debate, conversation, constructive interaction and so forth, are not true forms of bullying. How we can employ bullying tactics for the same purpose by way of peer pressure, mental / emotional blackmail and manipulation, non threatening harassment and so forth.

The need for what we feel to be acceptance is a very gray area for many people. What is acceptance and what constitutes acceptance will differ with each person based around what they are going through and the choices they have available to them. What is normally the biggest barrier to acceptance is not what society may think. The greatest barrier to acceptance is that people do not accept themselves so they turn the responsibility of acceptance on to other people, in a unconscious attempt to make the other person responsible for the situation. That is something that is so counter productive and destructive, that people often find that they are doing to avoid their own lack of self acceptance, by turning the people around them into the enemy and the ones responsible for things not working out as planned.

Such is what happened in the case of the father that is not gay friendly and the son that is gay. The son was acting in a manner that he thought, would make his father more accepting of the gay lifestyle of the son. The using of homo phobia statements, other people and visual interaction with partners in the fathers presence, were being used by the son as a form of bullying and pressure against the father. The father made the statement to the friend that he was tired of feeling bullied by his gay son, tired of feeling like that he was wrong for his thoughts and feelings about gay people and he was close to the point of telling his son to move out of the family house.

The son admitted to the friend that he was not happy with his own life style and resentful with his father as the son felt that he could not talk to his own father because his father was not accepting of gay people. The friend pointed out to the son, the fact that the father was accepting him as a son and as a gay son, tho it was time that the son realized that he was the problem, not the father, The father was being bullied by the son for something he was not doing and the son was trying to bully the father into accepting a person that could not accept themselves or what they were doing with their own lives.

I found the situation to be very, very interesting lol........kinda makes you wonder tho..... laws aside.... if a lot of the issues with society, is not really society accepting us... but us not accepting ourselves and blaming others cos of it, then using reasoning for our own behievour.. IE being closeted, biphobic behievour, accusing others of being the " enemy " and generally acting in the same manner that we accuse others of doing and yes bullying people...lol

and all cos it could be a case of the inability to accept oneself......

[The Bisexual Virgin]

You know. I knew someone just like the son in your scenerio. He was a big tall guy, and went on and went about liberal stuff, and just randomly tell people that he's gay or bisexual. No one would ask btw, he would just say it.

[jamieknyc]

The son needs to be straightened out about respecting his parents- especially when it is in the father's home.

[Nextyearsxmassgifts]

I find that story interesting as well. Bullying comes from many places and in many different forms. Someone can become a bully even when fighting for the most noble caws. But in this case. The son needed to accept him self. The acceptance of a father for a son is a vary self defining thing in a sons life. But fathers are only human and as such are flawed. Its just as important for a son to accept his father and his flaws, on his journey to becoming an adult.

I do have to say that as a closeted bi male. I don't see my choice to remain closeted as a lack of self acceptance. I am often encouraged to come out by the LGBT community. Or looked down upon because I wont. I have fully accepted who I am and what I am. Who and what I am attracted to is my business. So I have experienced some bullying my self. I just chose to ignore it and move on. I don't feel the need to find acceptance from anyone ells.

[IanBorthwick]

I couldn't agree with you LESS LDD. The father in this situation is, and always will be, the authority figure and the son the one seeking to equalize and and rise to similar standing, but as we know with parenting never occurs. This situation is essentially saying that it is ok for the authority figure to feel at the same level as the one over whom they have authority and license to ruin, when in fact they do not. You're not seeing the situation as clearly as you normally do, this digresses me.

In a relationship where one is always the junior/subordinate, there is no way in which the one who is essentially powerless to bully the powerful. They have shown his to be true in situations where a female teacher uses her power over students, especially male ones, to send them to jail for being distressed at having a CRUSH on the teacher at as little as 6 years old.

I'd say the problem in the scenario you have drawn is that the father/authority figure doesn't know his place in things, and yes, he does have a responsibility to love what he has made, no matter what the issues the child has. Whether it's a special needs child or an LGBT one, society and parenting responsibility says they must love it...or else grow up and find someone who can better love and care.

This entire thing sounds as bad as the idea of sexually "Topping from the Bottom"...it works only in fiction stories.

[tenni]

"What about when it comes to acceptance of people, is it possible that we can bully others into accepting who and what we are, by using our own thinking that what we do, is correct? "

Uh, a poorly written question.
Is it possible to force/bully others to accept a group or individual?
It would depend upon who had power. The bully is usually seen as imposing their will on a victim. If a person/group are marginalized they do not have the power to force the stronger person/group to yield. The marginalized individual/group is without power.

In the example of a father and a gay son, I agree with the others that the father seems to be the victim. The father has power though but fails to use it. The son's behaviour is disrespectful regardless of the gender of the son's lover. Over display of sexual affection in front of a parent is disrespectful and so it is not just a GLBT issue as much as a familial issue. The father is uncomfortable and the son is disrespectful to his father. The father's options and power remains with whether he is permitting the son to remain in the house or asked to move out. (based on the age of the son but even a 16 year old showing disrespect may be asked to move out or not permitted to have a lover visit etc.) For some unmentioned reason the father has not presented the son that the son is being disrespectful. Did the father and mother constantly "make out" in front of the son when he was young? If not, why is it acceptable for the son to act this way regardless of the gender of his lover?


"And what happens when the issue of acceptance is not one of people not accepting us but one of us not accepting ourselves?"
Again, the son is not accepting the rights of the father in the father's own house. It has nothing to do with the son's sexuality and whether the son accepts his homosexuality. This is circular logic.

"if a lot of the issues with society, is not really society accepting us... but us not accepting ourselves and blaming others cos of it, then using reasoning for our own behievour."
? Write in clearer sentences as this reads as jumble or at best an attempt to use circular logic.

[Nextyearsxmassgifts]

I couldn't agree with you LESS LDD. The father in this situation is, and always will be, the authority figure and the son the one seeking to equalize and and rise to similar standing, but as we know with parenting never occurs. This situation is essentially saying that it is ok for the authority figure to feel at the same level as the one over whom they have authority and license to ruin, when in fact they do not. You're not seeing the situation as clearly as you normally do, this digresses me.

In a relationship where one is always the junior/subordinate, there is no way in which the one who is essentially powerless to bully the powerful. They have shown his to be true in situations where a female teacher uses her power over students, especially male ones, to send them to jail for being distressed at having a CRUSH on the teacher at as little as 6 years old.

I'd say the problem in the scenario you have drawn is that the father/authority figure doesn't know his place in things, and yes, he does have a responsibility to love what he has made, no matter what the issues the child has. Whether it's a special needs child or an LGBT one, society and parenting responsibility says they must love it...or else grow up and find someone who can better love and care.

This entire thing sounds as bad as the idea of sexually "Topping from the Bottom"...it works only in fiction stories.

IanBorthwick, I can see where your coming from. The son is and always will be the junior. But is not a subordinate. A father will not and should not always be the authority figure. His roll as the authority figure in the sons life should end when the son becomes a self supporting adult. A school teacher and there student share vary few similarity's to the father son relationship. As the son strives to become an adult. The dynamics of the relationship change as they should. That's why teenagers are such pains in the ass. The father starts to loss control over his sons life. As the son starts to take control. This has never been a smooth transition threw out all of history.

A fathers job is to raise there children to become an adult. To do that yes they must be the authority figure. But if and when the job is done, a father should become an adviser. Someone the son can come to for advice about life. Not to tell the son how to live it with authority. The son seeks acceptance as a gauge of self worth. When a child is young, you accept there good behavior and punish the bad.....that's why as adults we still want our parents acceptance. (I am a bad person because my father wont accept my life choices.)

The son in this case is trying to force acceptance. The lack of acceptance does not mean a lack of love. The father must have loved the son or I don't think he would be concerned about his fathers acceptance. Family are the only people I believe, you can love and not accept. If your child becomes a drug addict or a criminal. You don't stop loving them. But by no means do you have to accept the behavior. The father may believe his sons life as a choice, bad behavior. That he cant or wont accept. That is the fathers flaw and should try to change his way of thinking. The son is trying to do that threw a confrontational way "bullying". Its hard enough to change your self. You cant change someone ells.

The sons is by no means powerless in this relationship. The father must love him or he would not be concerned with his sons behavior. When someone loves you. There love does give you power in the relationship. It gives you a direct line to there emotions. That power can be used to make them happy or to crush them. The sons behavior is crushing him. If it wasn't, then he wouldn't feel bullied. That's the difference between a son and a subordinate. You don't love a student or a subordinate. You love a son.

The "Topping from the Bottom" comparison dosnt quit fit. It would be more of a "Bottom" becoming a "Top"...and his Top not wanting to except it.

[Long Duck Dong]

I couldn't agree with you LESS LDD. The father in this situation is, and always will be, the authority figure and the son the one seeking to equalize and and rise to similar standing, but as we know with parenting never occurs. This situation is essentially saying that it is ok for the authority figure to feel at the same level as the one over whom they have authority and license to ruin, when in fact they do not. You're not seeing the situation as clearly as you normally do, this digresses me.

In a relationship where one is always the junior/subordinate, there is no way in which the one who is essentially powerless to bully the powerful. They have shown his to be true in situations where a female teacher uses her power over students, especially male ones, to send them to jail for being distressed at having a CRUSH on the teacher at as little as 6 years old.

I'd say the problem in the scenario you have drawn is that the father/authority figure doesn't know his place in things, and yes, he does have a responsibility to love what he has made, no matter what the issues the child has. Whether it's a special needs child or an LGBT one, society and parenting responsibility says they must love it...or else grow up and find someone who can better love and care.

This entire thing sounds as bad as the idea of sexually "Topping from the Bottom"...it works only in fiction stories.


I am going to disagree with you, ian, not on the father son scenario, but on the power issue... manipulation, emotional and mental blackmail etc, wielded the right way, they are very dangerous weapons, and invisible as opposed to physical abuse and violence, but they are often the tools of the * weaker * person....

if a fight broke out between the father and the son, the son has the ability to cry lgbt discrimination, abuse etc, the father doesn't have that option, but the fact that he is not LGBT accepting, becomes a noose around his neck...... advantage to the junior / subordinate.....

I agree with you about a parents love for a child.... but there is no way in hell that I am going to say that it is a parents obligation to respect their childrens choices or lifestyle, but not will I say that it is a childs obligation to respect their parents choices and lifestyles either.... its a common trait of people to separate parents from the human race and try and turn them into superhuman beings that are perfect parents.....

society tells us how we should be better parents, society is full of people that will tell people how they should be better parents, but practice what you preach, is something that comes to mind, as some of the top child psychs in NZ, have no child and have never been parents, however they are good at telling others how to be parents
I will not tell a parent how they should rise their children and I generally turn a blind eye to parents that talk about how they are raising their children the *right * way...
cos there is no *right * way.... there is only teaching the children our values and how we believe the children should think and feel......then feeling like we have done a good job when the kids grow up * right * or wonder what the fuck we did wrong when they don't...... and we forget that the kids are people too and have the right of choices and self expression in their lives,... and often what they do, is not a reflection on us, but them expressing themselves......

we can punish the children for failure to behave in a manner that we feel, is correct...... and in a way, children can punish the parents for being too set in their ways ( rebelling etc ) and that is what I see in the scenerio.... the father is not seen as being a *perfect parent * as they are not a LGBT friendly parent, by the son, so the son is * rebelling * as he comes to terms with his sexuality and lifestyle, and is trying to * punish * the parent and bully the parent into being what the son wants and needs at this point in his life.... and the father is feeling that in order to be a better father in his sons eyes, the father has to change his thinking and understanding in order to make the son happy, but the father is questioning why he has to change, why can the son not be accepting of the father, even if the son disagrees or feels the father is wrong....

we ask others to be accepting of us, even if they disagree... yet often, we are not accepting of others when we disagree with them

[darkeyes]

My dad used to say that it is he and my mum who had most of the obligation to my siblings and I, for it is they who brought us into the world and their obligation is to care for us and teach us as best they can in preparation for our life to come. It was not for them to decide who we become and how we live our lives but for the person we grow to be. Further he did not believe he was obligated to love us, nor us he or my mum, but that such feeling was dependant upon the dynamics of the relationship between parent and child. Luckily for my sister, brother and I, we had much love in our home and we returned it in kind.

As a child grows that child will increasingly stretch her or his wings and attempt to break free and begin the journey of who that person is. Influenced but not dominated by parental view they begin their journey through life and increasingly are influenced by external factors which develops them as people and contributes to the person they will become. This inevitably causes friction between parent and child, especially if the child remains living with the parent. Proximity and exposure to each other can between parent and child increase friction between the two as a result.

No child is obligated to accept the life choices, standards and beliefs of any parent, and no parent has the right to demand that. As long as the child remains under the roof and largely dependant upon the parent she or he has certain obligations to accept the rules of the parent and to respect those, but that obligation ceases at the front door when the child is both adult enough to make her or his own everyday decisions and through maturity, independent enough to make her or his own life choices.

As in any relationship between two people communication is important.. if a child while living with parents has to accept house rules, preferably house rules where a parent has consulted and listened to and the feelings of the growing child taken into account and catered for, the child has to accept that within the home the parent has the last word in what will be within the confines of the home.. dealing with each other with mutual respect is important and respecting each others dealings with the outisde world. Of course this is not always possible.. there will always be areas of conflict and disagreement but when that happens both have an obligation to each other to listen to the other and hopefully settle differences civilly and sensibly and both should try and accommodate the sensibilities and feelings of the other as far as they can. Compromise is not always possible but nor is it always impossible even when there is a yawning gap between the two..

Children can and do try to intimidate and bully parents into submission, just as many parents do their children throughout their lives. It should not be but it is something which is real as it is hardly conducive to either party holding the respect of the other and more often creates more division, less respect and seething resentment makes future friction almost inevitable. Children have an obligation when they are young to listen to the parent but far too few parents pay heed to their obligation to listen to the child and parents must realise that the child is not and never shall be a clone of the parents.

Listening to, consulting, advising, guiding.. not hectoring, demanding, indoctrinating, moralising.. these are parental obligations and these make for greater certainty of love and respect by the child of the parent and parent of the child more likely, if not to accept the standards and morality of the parent, but understand the parent and give him or her the love and respect they crave for and for the parent to act in ways which do the same for the child. Most parents and children instinctively love each other.. often under extreme stress and with much friction between them. but not all.. sometimes love and respect has to be earned... but love and respect whether earned or instinctively given, can by the thoughtless, selfish and stupid actions of either party, can just as easily be thrown away and lost.

[DuckiesDarling]

As a parent, I can honestly say that I would love any of my three boys the same as I do now if they came out to me as gay. But that's me. That's not all parents. And sadly there are many tales of woe of parents who cut off contact with children when they come out as gay or bisexual or transgendered. I do agree if the child, even as an adult, still lives at home with parents they would need to abide by the parents rules. Those rules don't just magically change because a child is LGBT. The parent has the right to say no to any child having any friend or boyfriend or girlfriend over regardless of sexuality being an issue. The parent has the right to expect their home to be what they worked hard to create as the child was growing up, a loving environment where food and shelter are provided. If the child is an adult living with parents, they still need to abide by the rules. I chafed under my parents rules when I was staying there after the fire, but I abided by them, because it was their home. Did I get out on my own again as soon as possible? Yes. But while there I kept my time on the net to a minimum and I had to completely change my sleep cycles to match theirs after eight years of being awake all night and sleeping during the day, it was hard, but I did it. Because I love and respect my parents.

In this scenario there is no respect for the father, simply a son trying to rub the fact he is gay in his father's face. Quite frankly, if I was the father in the scenario, I'd give the son the ultimatum of abiding by my wishes or finding another place to live. I'll be curious to see how the the scenario plays out as the season moves along on that show.

[elian]

In a relationship where one is always the junior/subordinate, there is no way in which the one who is essentially powerless to bully the powerful. They have shown his to be true in situations where a female teacher uses her power over students, especially male ones, to send them to jail for being distressed at having a CRUSH on the teacher at as little as 6 years old.


I disagree, I know a few passive-aggressive children who scream bloody murder until their parents do exactly as the child wants - it's all in how the parent reacts that determines whether or not they can be "bullied" and some of them who want to be more of a friend than a parent will definitely capitulate to the demands of the child.

What you are really asking LDD is do people give into peer pressure? Yes, an emotional force constantly working on you is just as draining as a physical force (imagine trying to hold up an anvil for a few hours). There are times when the right and proper thing to do is to push people emotionally, spiritually and/or physically but society also needs to realize that the "spirit" of a person (the sum of their experiences, to include emotion) is just as real as the corporal being. If you wouldn't think of hauling off and punching someone in the nose for no good reason, why would you consider doing the same thing to their spirit?

Of course, that is why we are here isn't it? To imagine an idea, bring it into physical form and then learn from the consequences - so we are bound to get a few bumps and bruises along the way - but hopefully it's all good if we remember that in the end we really are worthy, we really ARE loved and to have patience and compassion for one another.

[swmnkdinthervr]

Just a few thoughts about bullying...I agree that it's all about acceptance...self acceptance and self approval...

Sadly all of us are under constant harassment (bullying) by politicians, corporate advertisers and our peers! The only way to avoid bullying is to be self confident enough to be able to discriminate between someone else's lack of confidence or a sincere attempt to discuss an alternative way of thinking! We are all products of our environment and teach our children to act pretty much the way we did/do...in others words the need to bully others is a largely learned trait/personality defect except where it is commercially applied to shove some product down your throat! It's a cultural thing, we all are looking for acceptance in an world growing ever more complex!

I suppose I was fortunate that as a child, my parents told me over and over to stop caring what other people think of me. They told me that as I grow up, and become more confident in myself, I won't care how others feel about me. They went on to further explain that if I don't care what others think of me, they'll stop judging me and have less control over my feelings. Few of us are actually totally successful at putting those feelings aside! You clearly remember the hurtful things others have said to you, those kids in your past that put you down to increase their own self worth, a controlling or abusive partner even codependent friends/peers, it's their attempt to cover their own insecurities by pointing out yours, simply put I can feel bigger/better if I make you feel small/worse. We all realize that those actions are a bottomless emotional hole, when viewed from the outside but how many of us have lived IN that scenario...I submit virtually all of us

Confident people don't need to bully or judge others, nor do they seek approval from others. Everything that someone likes or dislikes, approves of or rejects, is a reflection of the values/views/emotions of that person, and that person alone. They can only impress those values/judgements on you if you let them!!! It's tough though, there's a drive in all of us to want to be liked, and approved of by a specific person, specific people, or society in general. We all waste a lot of time trying to impress those around us, while everyone we're trying to impress is wrapped up in impressing everyone else!!!

Giving others the power to approve or reject who you are is giving up your ability to make your own decisions, think your own thoughts, and feel your own feelings. The need for approval is ego based, it's more about how good we want others to see us than it is about how we want to see ourselves! So...are you seeking self approval or the approval of others? You would not be consciously aware of it when you are doing it, but you will have a developed habit of approval seeking....it can control the direction you take in conversations with other people, the way you act in front of others etc. You either decide you are okay....or....you need other people to tell you that you are okay. If the latter is the case then you probably either practice/participate in bullying or are often the victim of bullying!!!

[Long Duck Dong]

lol thank you swm,........ thank you very much indeed.... you got to the heart of the issue that I was talking about.... its not the father / son role or the authority / subjugate, or the LGBT vs the non LGBT role.... but the dynamics behind what was happening, that was the key to the whole situation....

thank you so much again for your post.....

[darkeyes]

By use of reason throughout our lives we attempt to get through that life as unscathed as possible and and make as much progress without conflict that we can. This means caring about others and how they feel, and discussing rationally with them any difficulties which may arise.. we should care about what people think, because we want people to care about what we think. This does not mean we buckle down and allow ourselves to be bullied and certainly not that we should bully.. caring about others and how they feel and think is a sign of decency and reason. I have never accepted that we should not care how others see us or of how or what we think because by not caring we enter the law of the jungle, selfishness, greed and this creates mistrust and conflict between people.

[*pan*]

acceptance ? did the son accept that his father is straight and respect him, i would think when in Rome do as the Romans to para phrase. when one is in the company of straight why would one want to draw attention to them selves and make others feel uncomfortable. there is a time and place for everything although i am pagan i would not go into a church and do ritual in front of other church members no matter how i felt. this would be counterproductive, he is in his faters house and should respect that. it is obvious his social skills need work. it seems he has no empathy for others knowing it makes his father uncomfortable. people today need to have empathy for others feelings and refrain from actions no matter how right they think they are. the son is wrong for not having empathy, consideration and social tact. this is just bad manners plain and simple.

[swmnkdinthervr]

lol thank you swm,........ thank you very much indeed.... you got to the heart of the issue that I was talking about.... its not the father / son role or the authority / subjugate, or the LGBT vs the non LGBT role.... but the dynamics behind what was happening, that was the key to the whole situation....

thank you so much again for your post.....

I always like seeing subjects that make people think, thanks! Sadly the need for acceptance is so strong in most people that they never recognize how much effort they put into being accepted by others. You can see it all the time here on these and other boards, often those arguing the loudest are the most insecure about their position and the need for acceptance drives them to bully others! Our egos are a fragile thing, we will often protect them at any cost!!!

* If you are seeking approval of others....you will be anxious that the interaction goes well.
* If you are seeking approval of others....you will worry about what the other person is thinking about you.
* If you are seeking approval of others....you will try to say/do the right things (while trying to dodge the wrong things).
* If you are seeking approval....and you don't think you are going to get it, you may simply avoid the interaction.
* If you are seeking approval....and you don't get it, or you get disapproval, then you become upset, miserable, annoyed or angry.

[Gearbox]

IMO the son was already accepted as a son who happened to be gay. But the son chose to change his behaviour becoming something he wasn't, just to exaggerate the part of himself he's not comfortable with himself. He became a gay evangelist, when he's really just a gay bloke.
He chose 'outrageous' partners, and exhibitionist kissing solely to bring the issue of 'Gay' up to his father. A desperate attempt at becoming an identity which he himself creates and gives prominence over his overall identity. I'm unsure, but I think Goth's are compensating their weak identities. (No offence to Goths!).

So IMO, it's more to do with insecurities than acceptance. I wonder what would happen if the dad started bringing home 19yo girls to feel up in front of his son?LOL! I'd bet £2.75 that the words "Mid-life Crisis!" would be heard from somebody.:bigrin:

[Long Duck Dong]

lol gear.... nice way of looking at it..... looking at the scenario that way, it fits quite well, and yeah, I see the same type of thing with some of the mardi gras / LGBT parades in NZ, the excessive, over done LGBT *look * when most of the people are sane and normal LGBT people the rest of the time lol.... its kinda like creating a image, that is not really who the person is... in order to draw attention to themselves...

the mid life crisis is something that i find very interesting... I never looked at the scenario from the point of view of how a gay son would feel about about the father acting in a * excessive * manner with younger females, as a way of hiding his own insecurities cos of a mid life crisis.....
I must remember to ask a few of the younger gay guys I know, what their reactions and thoughts would be about something like that, cos its definately something that I am interested in hearing their point of view, if they have to deal with that.....