America: It sure isn't what it used to be--and it will probably only sink lower

[12voltman59]

A few stories I found tonight on the net:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/10/az-abortion-bills-arizona-gestational-age_n_1415715.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/10/tennessee-evolution-bill-haslam_n_1416015.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000009


http://www.algemeiner.com/2012/04/09/corporations-plan-for-post-middle-class-america/

It is simply amazing at how far we have fallen so fast!

[slipnslide]

Many years ago I listened to a podcast that explained how the conservative right in the US planned to gain control and manipulate people by adopting extreme policies so middle-of-the-road, mainstream kind of ideas would become the left. This would leave more liberal politicians fighting just to maintain moderate ideas. At the time I thought it was ridiculous and people would never fall for that. Alas. . .here we are.

In some ways it might be good for world. The rest of us with progressive ideas and policies will continue to march forward while progressives in the US fight just to stop losing ground. It could make the planet less dependent on the US. I do though feel bad for those of you having to live there now. It's very Orwellian.

[DuckiesDarling]

Volt, just one question. Exactly where is it any better?

[falcondfw]

You know, one thing I have learned about America and Americans is to NEVER count us out. Oh we may be down and out from time to time. We may even get our asses handed to us from time to time. But those are the exact moments when we rise up and kick the ass of those who have gotten us down.

[Long Duck Dong]

lol falcon... and that is why england got told to F off and canada hides under the US's skirts......

seriously tho, its the same for NZ, we are in pretty bad shape, PC and the like have hurt the country... and we are busy selling off assets to overseas investors like china... who are also the USA's biggest money lender with something like 14 trillion lent to the US..... we just do not have the laws that we see appearing in the US, like the arizona bill.....yet... lol

[lvtwojo]

We're definitely not the America we were 50 or even 100 years ago. BUT! We're still the best county in the WORLD!

[Jobelorocks]

We're definitely not the America we were 50 or even 100 years ago. BUT! We're still the best county in the WORLD!
For sure we are not, but we have improved in some ways and have declined in others. A 100 years ago women couldn't vote. 50 years ago, not all schools were integrated. My main concern these days is that now corporations pretty much run what happens in this nation.

[darkeyes]

We're definitely not the America we were 50 or even 100 years ago. BUT! We're still the best county in the WORLD!
Maybe so..maybe not.. 200 odd countries in the world and prob half of them have populations who feel just the same.. mine sure as hell isn't the best.. tho lots claim it 2 b daft buggers that they r..but it's ok as countries go as a place 2 live.. love it more than ne other ne way.. reckon the Nordic countries have it bettern ne 1 and Denmark is 'sposed 2 b the happiest place on earth.. winter a bit grim but some peeps like no daylight an lotsa snow.. an they do have Sara Lund in Denmark.. always a plus.. but powerful an rich doesnt mean best.. everywhere has good things and bad.. rich an poor.. happiness and misery.. daft claims are daft claims cos they cant b proven 1 way or totha.. its all subjective... what matters isn't whether where we live is the best but it is the best that it can be.. and we poor lowly tarts an sods a have a duty 2 do our bit 2 make it so.. pity far 2 many just don't give a sod an so nowhere is half as good as it could be.. doesnt matter if nations drop down the ladder as good places 2 live.. not as such.. does matter just what that means.. as long as they are still becoming better places in which to live their place in the pecking order isn't important.. so don't worry bout the US losing much of its hegemony.. that's not important.. worry more bout it losing its compassion and its tolerance, its fairness and its understanding of each other and those from outside.. worry about it losing its prosperity and its environment... is it still getting better.. it is here in some ways.. but not in ways that are really important.. and that is a question which we should each ask and try and have addressed..

[tenni]

We're definitely not the America we were 50 or even 100 years ago. BUT! We're still the best county in the WORLD!


Sorry Ivtwojo but you are buying into your societal propaganda. The USA (not America) has never been declared the "best country" in the WORLD except by the US (people) themselves. Did you know that there is an annual analysis as to which country is the best to live in? The US is never in the top five and sometimes as low as tenth or lower.

Slippy, you may have a point but Canada is falling into similar manipulation by the Right. Although Canada's right (hopefully) has always been a bit more radical that the US left, manipulation and undemocratic attempts endanger us as well. Jobel has a good point about corporations controlling governments. I'm not sure how true it is but there is a suspicion as to when government cuts are made they rarely impact the corporate world as much as individual citizens in the middle to poor classes.

[nutme]

lol falcon... and that is why england got told to F off and canada hides under the US's skirts......

seriously tho, its the same for NZ, we are in pretty bad shape, PC and the like have hurt the country... and we are busy selling off assets to overseas investors like china... who are also the USA's biggest money lender with something like 14 trillion lent to the US..... we just do not have the laws that we see appearing in the US, like the arizona bill.....yet... lol

Obviously you are so far on the bottom of the planet that your facts are upside down. China, in no way, shape or form, has lent the United States 14 trillion dollars. The entire US debt, is fourteen trillion, which China owns 7 percent. This is what happens when ne'er do wells, like 12voltman, scream FIRE is a crowded theatre, just to get his silly ya-ya's off. " Facts are stubborn things" John Adams

[Long Duck Dong]

Obviously you are so far on the bottom of the planet that your facts are upside down. China, in no way, shape or form, has lent the United States 14 trillion dollars. The entire US debt, is fourteen trillion, which China owns 7 percent. This is what happens when ne'er do wells, like 12voltman, scream FIRE is a crowded theatre, just to get his silly ya-ya's off. " Facts are stubborn things" John Adams

sorry, 1.14 trillion... it was a typo and when I realised, it was too late to edit it to correct the mistake.....that number was correct as of nov 2011

As of May 2011 the largest single holder of US government debt was China, with 26 percent of all foreign-held US Treasury securities (8% of total US public debt) ( source wikipedia )

[jamieknyc]

I have been reading America-is-in-decline literature since I was a teenager, and I am in my fifties and it is still the richest and most powerful country in the world.....

[darkeyes]

lol falcon... and that is why england got told to F off and canada hides under the US's skirts......
The first part is inaccurate and the second contemptuous.. without the French and their navy in particular, the revolutionary war would probably have been lost by the colonists.. didn't do the French much good cos the new republic still preferred to do business the with the old colonial power rather than the French once peace came and that was a contributory factor in the causes of the French revolution.. thats gratitude forya.. just as well for the US that for about the only time in 4 centuries the French actually had maritime superiority over the British... the British Duckie, not the English.. a common enough mistake by English peeps and non Brits... but a mistake almost unforgivable in one born in the county of Renfrew...;).

The American Revolution was a fight between three nations not two, four if we count Hanover who supplied much of what is thought of as the British Army..... and the US needed the French to win, just as modern day Canada and many other nations feel the need to ally with the US for good or ill, just as the US chose to accept the offer of alliance with France.. for their mutual benefit.. and just as the revolutionary army did not hide behind French skirts in that war, Canada does to hide behind the skirts of the US today, but work with the US for the mutual benefit of both states in matters of common defence and other areas of mutual interest.. certainly Canada with about 1/15th of the population of the US will, by being junior partner contribute less to the relationship and that is unavoidable.. but if Canada was not there, or worse suddenly became a foe of the US, then we would see just how much the US relied on Canada in their alliance and friendship.. the US may be Canada's most powerful ally and trading partner... but that does not mean Canada is not invaluable to the interests of the US or any of its other allies or trading partners.. Canada does not hide behind American skirts at all.. it has by alliance and friendship chosen to do best by its people in the face of an overwhelmingly rich an powerful neighbour by being that neighbour's friend, not as was the case as recently as a century and half ago, its bitter and suspicious rival, and not as just a half century or so before that, together with their then colonial master, its enemy.

[darkeyes]

I have been reading America-is-in-decline literature since I was a teenager, and I am in my fifties and it is still the richest and most powerful country in the world.....
True Jamie, but in relative terms becoming less so with every passing year.. that as I said earlier isnt important..what is important is that things continue to get better.. and I very much doubt we can say that about the US or that many other countries for that matter...

[jamieknyc]

I should have added they also said the US was losing standing too, and that the exact same things they now say about China, back then tehy said all of them about the Soviet Union.

[darkeyes]

I should have added they also said the US was losing standing too, and that the exact same things they now say about China, back then tehy said all of them about the Soviet Union.
Nane sae blind indeed Jamie... seem to remember history telling us about another top dog who thought as u do... complacency had much to do with its place in the world becoming far more modest... it also tells us about many others going back millenia losing their place too... sleep well..

[jamieknyc]

I don't pretend to be a pundit, but for fifty years, I have been hearing the dsame song with different names.

It was less than ten years ago when the pundits were writing ereams of stuff about how American influence was going to be repalced by- I kid you not- the Euro zone!

[BiCplAz]

sorry, 1.14 trillion... it was a typo and when I realised, it was too late to edit it to correct the mistake.....that number was correct as of nov 2011

As of May 2011 the largest single holder of US government debt was China, with 26 percent of all foreign-held US Treasury securities (8% of total US public debt) ( source wikipedia )

And you're blaming this on the right?????

[jamieknyc]

It isn't a right issue or a left issue. It is the product of globalization trends that neither political party really has any control over.

[slipnslide]

Slippy, you may have a point but Canada is falling into similar manipulation by the Right. Although Canada's right (hopefully) has always been a bit more radical that the US left, manipulation and undemocratic attempts endanger us as well. Jobel has a good point about corporations controlling governments. I'm not sure how true it is but there is a suspicion as to when government cuts are made they rarely impact the corporate world as much as individual citizens in the middle to poor classes.

oh for sure, there's a shift here too in polarization.

[**Peg**]

... and that is why ... canada hides under the US's skirts...


we Canucks don't hide from anyone!

5181

[darkeyes]

we Canucks don't hide from anyone!

5181
Bloody cant canya wiv the size of the place Granmumsie!! But must b dead easy 2 get lost tho... tee hee.. muaaaaaah!;)

[12voltman59]

The reason that I do have concern over issues like those I posted links to --is that not that they are not important issues---but because it is things like "the war on women/gays/immigrants" or fill in the blank with your favorite group de'jure, is that they basically serve as ways to help divide people, only increase the degree of negativity and polarization being fostered among the various elements in our society and that is not good----such things are "weapons of mass distraction" away from us being able to get down and deal with some very real pressing issues.

One issue that concerns me is the fact that in America----our infrastructure systems are crumbling.

http://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/

There is a large list of such critical issues that we face----but it seems that either out of design or just the situation seeming to be so overwhelming, so many people just kind of give up and allow themselves to be distracted on other things--whether that is who is winning on Survivor or American Idol or get all stoked up over issues like contraceptives or what have you.

I say that what we need to do in America is to stop focusing on these sorts of "Bullshit" issues and drop our divisions to get back to the work of "setting things right" like rebuilding our infrastructure--to that I say that we need to do an equivalent of "The Marshall Plan" that America came up with to help rebuild Europe after World War II and instead of doing that sort of thing for someplace else---we need to do whatever is required to get the money to set out to not only rebuild, but to extend our nation's infrastructure to make it ready to handle what we foresee coming in the next 50 to 100 years--to make a system robust enough to last that long.

Not only would this effort provide a boost to the economy now--what it is, is an investment to help grow and prosper into the future and to help lay the groundwork for new industries and the jobs they will bring----right now the with the polarization and "do nothing government" we have at the national and sadly in many states too--not much is really getting done.

When it comes to projects like this----it does take government to do it---out of the concept of 'the commonweal" and surely in the more personal level of "We are all in this together."

It might sound great to extoll the virtues of "the individual"---but the fact is---no person is ever 100% "self-made"----no matter the endeavor a person engages in---even if it might be "a one man band" sort of thing--that a person can try to start a new business, offer a new product or service----that person can only do that thanks to the fact that collectively we have done things like build roads, have a transportation system or have the internet---those things are all a result of collective action---no person is "an island unto" themselves, as a romantic notion that might seem--it is simply pure fantasy.

In addition to this idea of an modern corollary in America to the Marshall Plan--I think that should go along with resurrecting another idea from the past---I would like to see us do a new age version of "The GI Bill" that we did back at the end of WWII, in which returning war vets were able to get funds to attend college or start businesses----something that they would never have had an opportunity to do otherwise---the results of that program was immeasurable because it led to so many getting an education or starting businesses--all of which lead to an unprecedented level of economic growth, national and personal prosperity the world had never seen.

My proposal would be that we do a version of this today that would be open to all in our country----for people of all ages and backgrounds with it doing one of several things----the first would be to provide FREE or very low cost to anyone who wants to attend college either for initial level or advanced degrees, another part would be to provide low cost loans or even eventually total loan forgiveness to those who have the capability to start new businesses or to train them to do so.

Money for these purposes would be available to anyone who meets a threshold level of minimum qualifications--with even bad credit not being a long term barrier to the program---those with bad credit would have to take classes in things like proper budgeting, financial management, and then be involved in programs to establish a good credit rating.

I know that all of this would cost a great deal of money--but the fact is--even though we are not to the level we once were when it comes to our financial status as individuals and a nation---we seem to have no problem to come up with the money to fight "wars" in all kinds of places---money that we could have used to do things of this sort.

If you go to the site I have posted the link to--they have a series of videos on the infrastructure issue and have an estimate as to the cost of doing a major redo of the infrastructure---that figure comes out to $2.2 trillion. A big number to be sure---but the amount we have spent the past decade or so to fight two wars comes to far more than that--and the money we have spent to "rebuild" both Iraq and Afghanistan---has been untold hundreds of billions of dollars that basically went down a rathole.

I say that what we need to do as a nation is to once again----THINK BIG--and get behind a program such as this---it is an investment in our future that I think we really need to make.

In the past, when things like the interstate freeway system was proposed by President Dwight David Eisenhower---there were some voices that said the same sorts of things about that, which get bandied about today---like "we cannot afford it" or "that is kinda socialist, isn't it?"

Thankfully, those in favor of funding and building the interstates held sway and in a few years--we went from having a primitive series of roads in America to having those wonderful roads. Look at how a government program lead to a fundamental transformation of the entire nation.

The same sort of thing was said about when the proposals to create the Tennessee Valley Authority first came forth---it was derided as government trying to "take over" and such--but what it did do---it created an electric power system for an entire region of the nation that had been pretty well "backwater" and undeveloped.Those lakes they built to power or provide water for power plants---also served as economic engines for those regions---with them becoming huge tourist and sport fishing destinations which in turn created many companies and jobs to serve those who came to recreate on the lakes and in the areas.

This crap that some people spout about "lets take government and make it so small we can drown it" sounds sorta good on one hand--but I say that this a mythical and romantic notion that is not only foolish---it is down right dangerous in a world that has other large and powerful governments (and potentially hostile) that they aren't hellbent in undoing.

This might surely seem like pure pie-in-the-sky dreams---but I say that we have done similar sorts of things in the past---and instead of "killing government" only thinking "small" and being "fiscally frugal"---while that all sounds great---the reality is that what we need to do is to THINK and ACT BIG---if we follow this path of just allowing the status quo in the area of infrastructure---then we will surely fail and head towards mediocrity and even irrelevance because if everything is falling down under, and around us---then all other economic measures we might do are bound to fail and so are we as a people and nation--and if we allow this to happen--well then---we actually do deserve the fate that will befall us!!!!

As far as the original posting----I don't apologize or back away from it and others like it---things like that are really a way of me blowing off steam about things I see that I think are "stupid" and as such that I just feel are worth sharing---I am sure to continue to post them---and don't apologize for that, not one damn bit and if you don't like them--go ahead and blast me--or alternately---just don't click on the things you see me post if you think I am full of shit!!

[12voltman59]

As a separate post to answer how in the hell someone like me thinks he has any place in proposing something like I have done above---to that I direct your attention to the following: http://theleaderlessrevolution.com/

After watching this show---I immediately went to purchase and download his book to my Nook Tablet I recently purchased--got to say--those things are wonderful!!

I am still reading the book--but I am glad that someone has come up with a way of action for "the common person" to play a vital role in actually working to "take back the country."

For those who are open-minded enough to consider what Ross proposes---I urge you to get his book, read and and see if this is something you think you can and will do as well.

I have decided now that I am on this new direction towards film and video making---I am going to use those mediums to do my part in to try to do things of this nature--when it comes to something like proposing a major effort to totally upgrade and rebuild our nation's infrastructure and to help educate and/or retrain people out of work.

If relying upon government funds to kickstart such infrastructure projects---well I will join in my lot with that den of notorious communists and socialists of the American Society of Civil Engineers in advocating for such a program.

The thing with things of this nature---it may not be a "perfect solution" to the current one we are in when it comes to government and societal dysfuntionality---but we do have to start someplace and to try---and surely not to give up as much as we might want to at times.

Now--I can tell you----at age 50 plus---I am to that point in life that "I have more days behind me than in front of me now" and I don't have any children--and probably won't ever have---this is so in part due to both by my design and due to circumstances on how my life has evolved. I am not rich by any means, but have "done Ok" in life---I could just go and hunker down someplace like a farm stead sort of place I am working to get in a few years---and not give a shit about the way things are going to be for those in the future, since whatever takes place won't affect me or my direct descendants---but I simply cannot do that----I have this very strongly held conviction that whether in the places we are like a property we might buy or in the world at large---it is our duty and responsibility to "leave the place just a bit better than the way we found it."

I feel that in whatever capacity I can---and no matter if I do try and fail---at least I have tried to make things better in some ways.

I know that people got sorta pissed at this posting---well I cannot help that---and one thing about getting older--I guess you do get a bit more cranky----but you also get freedom that you realize--you cannot help what other people think about the way you are, what you say or do--and that you come to a point that you just don't give a crap about that and can tell them---if ya don't like this--then go kiss my ass!!

[FinkDoodle]

So . . what exactly is the point of trying to spread fear and insecurity? You're not clairvoyant and you have no way of knowing that this government nor any other is going to sink their respective countries into the crapper. Further, every political environment has its ups and downs. I didn't see anybody shrieking how great we were a few years ago when we were at the top of the economic curve - but when things slip a couple of notches all the freaks are quick to come out of the woodwork and start braying about how doomed we are and how it'll never get any better. . . so, again, I ask . . what exactly is the point of that?

Politics are cyclical. There have been doomsayers since the beginning of recorded history and, funny thing, nobody's been doomed to anything yet.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem . . so kindly STFU and ride this out like the rest of us with somewhat saner heads, rather than squawking about how the sky is falling.

[darkeyes]

So . . what exactly is the point of trying to spread fear and insecurity? You're not clairvoyant and you have no way of knowing that this government nor any other is going to sink their respective countries into the crapper. Further, every political environment has its ups and downs. I didn't see anybody shrieking how great we were a few years ago when we were at the top of the economic curve - but when things slip a couple of notches all the freaks are quick to come out of the woodwork and start braying about how doomed we are and how it'll never get any better. . . so, again, I ask . . what exactly is the point of that?

Politics are cyclical. There have been doomsayers since the beginning of recorded history and, funny thing, nobody's been doomed to anything yet.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem . . so kindly STFU and ride this out like the rest of us with somewhat saner heads, rather than squawking about how the sky is falling.
Well.. isn't this just a nice way of saying do nowt and let big biz do its thing and let the politicians carry on running before them and preparing the way for their worst excesses... the very excesses which have got us in the poop we are in.. bit late 2 worry 'bout the sky falling.. it has already landed slap bang on our heads an' it bloody well hurts...

[pepperjack]

So . . what exactly is the point of trying to spread fear and insecurity? You're not clairvoyant and you have no way of knowing that this government nor any other is going to sink their respective countries into the crapper. Further, every political environment has its ups and downs. I didn't see anybody shrieking how great we were a few years ago when we were at the top of the economic curve - but when things slip a couple of notches all the freaks are quick to come out of the woodwork and start braying about how doomed we are and how it'll never get any better. . . so, again, I ask . . what exactly is the point of that?

Politics are cyclical. There have been doomsayers since the beginning of recorded history and, funny thing, nobody's been doomed to anything yet.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem . . so kindly STFU and ride this out like the rest of us with somewhat saner heads, rather than squawking about how the sky is falling.


And then there are the naysayers, those who downplay and promote a false sense of security. " Nobody's been doomed to anything yet?" How about the fall of six previous world empires? I wouldn't minimize that historical reality as simple political " ups and downs."

[realitychek]

So . . what exactly is the point of trying to spread fear and insecurity? You're not clairvoyant and you have no way of knowing that this government nor any other is going to sink their respective countries into the crapper. Further, every political environment has its ups and downs. I didn't see anybody shrieking how great we were a few years ago when we were at the top of the economic curve - but when things slip a couple of notches all the freaks are quick to come out of the woodwork and start braying about how doomed we are and how it'll never get any better. . . so, again, I ask . . what exactly is the point of that?

Politics are cyclical. There have been doomsayers since the beginning of recorded history and, funny thing, nobody's been doomed to anything yet.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem . . so kindly STFU and ride this out like the rest of us with somewhat saner heads, rather than squawking about how the sky is falling.

I'm one hundred percent behind you on this. There are ugly Americans and then there are self hating Americans. I've seen much of both here.

[pepperjack]

I'm one hundred percent behind you on this. There are ugly Americans and then there are self hating Americans. I've seen much of both here.

During less than a month of membership here? What an astute observation.:rolleyes:

[*pan*]

hmmmm... this country is not waht it was for simple reasons, #1 no one minds their own business any more. it seems anything and everything anyone does some one has something to say. this is a social mentality, the people of the united states have become socialists, in that society's rights are above the individual's rights. this is but one problem. one can't even fart without someone complaining and wanting to make a law, that coupled with no tolerance for anyone else and the government turning everyone into stool pidgons on each other for the benefit of society. i can remember when people had rights to raise their kids as they seen fit and a wife was not forced to testify against her husband because of the sanciety of marriage. the parents were responsible for their childern and not schools, neighbors or society, the parents had the last sayso. this has all disapeared and is but one thing different from how we used to be free. and costs the tax payer. #2 the country has changed from a punitive state to a preventive state. this in it self is unconstitutional. where a persons freedoms are denighed because of what they might do and not because of what they have done. in the punitive state one is punished for what they have done. it is stupid to think any law will prevent a crime, that is why it has always been to punish if the crime is committed. preventive state laws are not only stupid but a lie in that they promise a false sence of safety and to reduce crime when reality the crimes still are committed. this is not only stupid but costs the tax payer out the wazoo to keep the laws active. this is but another difference in our country. #3 forcing our beliefs on people in other country's to the point of war. ever since vietnam this country has wanted to police the world, invading other country's and killing it's people claiming posession of weapons of mass distruction amoung other lies just to keep the occupation going. in the past americans were respected and now are hated and disrespected in a lot of other country's. costing the tax payers even more money. these are but 3 items and i could go on forever with this thread but it would be of no use because people would not want to change it because they are scared and think with these laws and behaviours today we are better off. ben franklin one of the founding faters once said they that give up liberty for a little temporary safety deserve neither the liberty nor the safety. that one statement sums it up as to one of the biggest problems in this country.since the 70's the government has been setting it up with propaganda on radio and tv getting people to believe they way they want them too. about social and community, and now that all have been brain washed or confused they can do what they like. ye reap what you sow.

[nutme]

hmmmm... this country is not waht it was for simple reasons, #1 no one minds their own business any more. it seems anything and everything anyone does some one has something to say. this is a social mentality, the people of the united states have become socialists, in that society's rights are above the individual's rights. this is but one problem. one can't even fart without someone complaining and wanting to make a law, that coupled with no tolerance for anyone else and the government turning everyone into stool pidgons on each other for the benefit of society. i can remember when people had rights to raise their kids as they seen fit and a wife was not forced to testify against her husband because of the sanciety of marriage. the parents were responsible for their childern and not schools, neighbors or society, the parents had the last sayso. this has all disapeared and is but one thing different from how we used to be free. and costs the tax payer. #2 the country has changed from a punitive state to a preventive state. this in it self is unconstitutional. where a persons freedoms are denighed because of what they might do and not because of what they have done. in the punitive state one is punished for what they have done. it is stupid to think any law will prevent a crime, that is why it has always been to punish if the crime is committed. preventive state laws are not only stupid but a lie in that they promise a false sence of safety and to reduce crime when reality the crimes still are committed. this is not only stupid but costs the tax payer out the wazoo to keep the laws active. this is but another difference in our country. #3 forcing our beliefs on people in other country's to the point of war. ever since vietnam this country has wanted to police the world, invading other country's and killing it's people claiming posession of weapons of mass distruction amoung other lies just to keep the occupation going. in the past americans were respected and now are hated and disrespected in a lot of other country's. costing the tax payers even more money. these are but 3 items and i could go on forever with this thread but it would be of no use because people would not want to change it because they are scared and think with these laws and behaviours today we are better off. ben franklin one of the founding faters once said they that give up liberty for a little temporary safety deserve neither the liberty nor the safety. that one statement sums it up as to one of the biggest problems in this country.since the 70's the government has been setting it up with propaganda on radio and tv getting people to believe they way they want them too. about social and community, and now that all have been brain washed or confused they can do what they like. ye reap what you sow.

I agree en toto till #3 and there, in my opinion, you blew all four tires out.

[DuckiesDarling]

And I'm still waiting for an answer to my question... Just where is it better, Volt?

[*pan*]

I agree en toto till #3 and there, in my opinion, you blew all four tires out.

so you agree then we should be in other countries at war with them to further our goals and force our ways and beliefs on them killing them when it is justified by the lies of our government. sending our brave soldiers to die and killing others even childern then pulling out when the war isnt winnable or popular opinion goes against it.

[Gearbox]

And I'm still waiting for an answer to my question... Just where is it better, Volt?
Well according to this site: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/photo/2010-08/18/c_13450304_10.htm
1. Finland. 2. Switzerland. 3. Sweden. 4. Australia. 5. Luxembourg. 6. Norway. 7. Canada. 8. Netherlands. 9.Japan. 10. Denmark.
There! Now you know.:)

[darkeyes]

You are naughty, Gear.. which is best depends on the list u check.. France, Denmark and yea, Finland all top some list or t'otha.. other countries other lists... our pitiful lil country tends to rate somewhere between 17 and 25 depending on each list and the criteria used for rating. The US invariably lower but not always and is usually also top 25 or so. The US's best rating I know of is as a place for working mums.. it is rated at 5... avery specific rating but as we are talking generally, it obviously has some areas just like every other country where it is much further behind... Britain is just a tadge behind in this area..... a very large tadge behind and falling a tadge further behind every day... but it's all subjective, babes, innit? I'm not sure 'bout the US but Britain is losing ground overall compared to other developed countries and has been over the last 2 or 3 years, dropping down 8 places on one list in the last year alone. Seems our lot relative to others isn't that hot.. fact is tho.. nowhere is getting better particularly, just some places are gettin' worse slower than others...

[Gearbox]

LOL! Well yes Fran, it's subjective. Even though Finland was rated No1 in that chart for perfectly good reasons, would we want to live there?
Well I don't. I'm happy, despite the many great reasons not to be. I might be happier in Finland, but there's no guarantee of that, so I'll take my chances here for now. (as if I had a choice.lol)

[darkeyes]

LOL! Well yes Fran, it's subjective. Even though Finland was rated No1 in that chart for perfectly good reasons, would we want to live there?
Well I don't. I'm happy, despite the many great reasons not to be. I might be happier in Finland, but there's no guarantee of that, so I'll take my chances here for now. (as if I had a choice.lol)
This lil town of mine has been voted in the top 10 or so cities of the world more often than not in the last decade as a place 2 live.. not sure its that good..reckon it wos outa town peeps that keep votin' it that and ver much doubt they ev put foot in the place.. not Glaswegians.. they wudnt give us the doggiepoop offa ther shoe... tee hee... but its home and Im comfy tyvm and am not shiftin'... not even 2 France which I love and adore and am comfy ther like nower else on earth.. 'cept here.. home is where the heart is..the the Fran heart aint shiftin' least till I'm a lil ole lady an kno zactly wer Im goin' then.. an don't mean in hole in the ground!

[Gearbox]

My 2 goat town isn't even on the map. Never mind being voted for in any pole.lol We have a new 8million quid state of the art school despite that, and my lil Angel comes home asking what part of the sky will I go to when I'm dead, and thinks I'm lying when I say Jesus wasn't necessarily real.:tongue:
The other week they had a neighbour of mine give a talk there. He's a born again Christian minister (or something). What they REALLY need Fran is me giving a talk about upping our ranking of sarcastic bastardism, cos we'll never get on the map with the likes of Merthyr Tydfil in the running.:eek2:

[DuckiesDarling]

Well according to this site: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/photo/2010-08/18/c_13450304_10.htm
1. Finland. 2. Switzerland. 3. Sweden. 4. Australia. 5. Luxembourg. 6. Norway. 7. Canada. 8. Netherlands. 9.Japan. 10. Denmark.
There! Now you know.:)

You missed the point, Gear. Unless you want to say you don't bitch about your own country. Every country in the world is experiencing issues at this point whether it is economical or natural. But for all the faults I find with America, I'm still glad to live in the land of the free.

[tenni]

Well, the organizations that determine the best countries to live in use a standard method of comparision. Canada was #1 a couple of years and now has fallen to 7 according to Gear. It may be only a few points or a large gap. Canadian government claims that Canada is one of the best countries on economic scales based upon debt and deficits. The wacko government has certainly screwed up the decade of surpluses.

As far as living in the land of the free, that is not quite qualitatively true compared to other western countries...if you want same sex marriage it isn't universally available in the USA. Freedom of expression varies depending upon how it is defined. During the Bush 2 era there was severe censorship in the US media as far as war actions, inbedding media to keep track of them and control what they reported etc..nope no freedom there.. Dead soldiers being returned home were done under darkness etc. There are several countries that may claim to be the land of the free. Some of those countries are also proclaimed the best (better) countries to live in.

The US still has the most billionaires in the world I think.

[BiCplAz]

Of all u negative people answering this question how many Americans or anybody have lived in another country? How many have ventured over 500 miles from their home town??? Well we have and we and we have traveled the world and we can tell you the United States is, or was, the greatest country in the world. The problem is we have become complacent and let the socialists crawl up our ass with us not paying any attention. Obama is no more an American than Hitler in his beliefs, and his citizenship may be in question but that's another story, and he and Pelosi, I would include Reid but he is too stupid to be included, and the rest of the radical liberals want to destroy this country. I voted for Kennedy because he was a sane person who lowered taxes and did not empower the welfare state. Ever since Lyndon Banes Johnson started the "Great Society" this country has been on a downhill slide. I really think I will go out having lived in the greatest times the United States ever had or ever will have. If you don't believe me and you can venture over 100 miles from where you hide go to Baltimore, for example, and look ant the projects LBJ started. DON"T GET OUT OF YOUR CAR THO. So yes America isn't what it used to be and that's a Damn shame.

[DuckiesDarling]

BicplAZ, I disagree with your statements that President Barack Obama is not an American. He was born in Hawaii, the birth certificate was released, that's a dead horse, stop beating it please, it's not gonna get up and run the Kentucky derby. Yes, I am an American and I have lived abroad, I have also lived in several states and I continue to the see the beauty in our country, the way neighbors will help neighbors, the way we come together in times of tragedy and send one voice out to the world. We are America, we will not be terrorized. We will fight back. We get dragged into other nation's wars by the United Nations. We are the strong arm of the United Nations. We do our duty and that makes us hated around the world by those that know that freedom will ring for anyone who wants to reach for it. We do it knowing that others will hate us for it, but we do it for the men, women and children in those countries that can't fight back.

Jamie was absolutely correct in that people have been saying for years that America is declining, they will still be saying for it years. We are on the road to recovery and if other nations would quit begging aid we might get their sooner. But we could no more let people starve in the aftermath of a national disaster than we could let Canada be attacked. We are the watchdogs on the border. And I really don't care if those non Americans don't like it.

[Long Duck Dong]

america.... is no different to my own country... its simply not perfect.... but like my country, what makes america the place it is... is not the laws, the national debt, the unemployment rate..... its the country and the people in it......

I have not met the people that come to visit NZ to check out our debt, our trade tariffs with the us, the national wage, our healthcare system.... they come to see the scenery and the people.... the heart of NZ and its the same with people that go to america, they want to see the rich heritage that makes america such a diverse country.....

is america truly a free country ?? yes... as a outsider and have checked options for travelling the US, I can honestly say that I am more likely to be able to enter the US than a lot of other countries.... I would even be stopped from entering NZ, and I live in NZ....

pound for pound, america is actually has more freedoms for a person like me, than my own country, NZ, which is rated as one of the leading countries for human rights, health care, employment, living, education etc.... and america has better healthcare than NZ, which is interesting cos in NZ, we do not have to have insurance to get treated..... the issue there, is that we can not get access to many of the treatments and meds that the US offers......

can I marry the same sex partner in NZ... yes I can... but I pay a high price for any marriage... like loss of benefits... and the only real support for people in NZ, is for married people that have more and more children ( and end up unable to care for them ), but I can marry DD and america will look after us both while DD lives in NZ,.... my own country will wipe me after 3 months abroad.....

sure it can be argued that america looks after people from other countries better than it looks after its own people..... well in NZ, 14% of the population are looked after better than the other 86% simply cos of race.... so america is still coming out on top there......

btw, wanna become a NZ citizen.... please have $2 mill in your pocket cos that is what would make you more desirable as a NZ citizen than a person with full nursing certs or a person that buys and owns a small business that now employs 12 staff, or a fully certed and experienced aviation engineer ( no, none of them are me, they are people that were refused entry, or told to leave cos they were not suitable for citizenship )..... the list goes on .......

america may not be perfect in the eyes of many people... but I have a different set of eyes, as I do not live in the us, but I can see what america will do for me and how america will welcome me when other countries will not.... and that may be a bad thing in some peoples eyes.... but its not just the laws of america that would welcome me, its many of the people too

[darkeyes]

My house is posher than ur house.. can me join in?:tongue:

[cbj4162]

it is because of open borders and globalization that our standard of living has declined ... if you think of it as 2 bins of water side by side, one is 3/4 full and represents our standard of living in mid 20th century the other bin is less than half full and represents the standard of living in most developing economies...... when we open borders as in free trade and ineffective immigration and globalization it is like removing the wall between the bins of water and the higher bin loses water and the lower bin gains water and they move to more equal or level, that is what is happening to our standard of living.

[darkeyes]

it is because of open borders and globalization that our standard of living has declined ... if you think of it as 2 bins of water side by side, one is 3/4 full and represents our standard of living in mid 20th century the other bin is less than half full and represents the standard of living in most developing economies...... when we open borders as in free trade and ineffective immigration and globalization it is like removing the wall between the bins of water and the higher bin loses water and the lower bin gains water and they move to more equal or level, that is what is happening to our standard of living.
What utter tosh!!!!

[DuckiesDarling]

What utter tosh!!!!

Fran, you don't live here and just because you read something in the Guardian it doesn't make you qualified to make that comment to someone who does live here. Not that I agree fully with CBJ but there is no denying that NAFTA had an adverse effect on our economy.

[tenni]

What role does a large national debt play in the decline of a country?

What role does having to pay a large or majority of taxes collected on the interest payment on that national debt?

What role does a lack of natural resources play in the decline of a country?

What role does spending tax dollars on a large military industrial complex at the expense of a country's infrastructure and health care needs of your citizens play in the decline of a country?

Someone said to me yesterday that the USA is a wonderful place to live if you are extremely wealthy. Is that the majority of US citizens though? What precentage of mid twentieth century individual personal material goods were acquired via credit rather than cash? Was mid twentieth century perception of a good life real or artificially created via credit that finally came due in the end of the first decade of this new century?

[darkeyes]

Fran, you don't live here and just because you read something in the Guardian it doesn't make you qualified to make that comment to someone who does live here. Not that I agree fully with CBJ but there is no denying that NAFTA had an adverse effect on our economy.
The Guardian is but a handy website for some issues.. I read and think a lot more about issues than just the Guardian.. I also know a little more about economics than u give me credit for and know that what his post hinted at was that to stay top dog economic growth elsewhere must be held back... the British tried that and fell on their face.. no hun.. what he said was utter tosh.. it is still utter tosh no matter what country or countries economy we consider.. my exclamation of disdain was on the principle he was espousing.. not the fact that he is American and talking of the US...

..and I can make certain judgements about your country and others because I read much more than one newspaper and research many resources and because I am interested.. just as u do about other countries about which u have commented upon so knowledgeably in these pages over time and will again no doubt.. as do many Britons and Americans and people from just about anywhere u care to mention when making statements about other countries.. we all have views about other places... it is no used getting narked at us simply because we have views about a place simply because it happens to be yours and give vent to them..

[JP1986UM]

Sorry Ivtwojo but you are buying into your societal propaganda. The USA (not America) has never been declared the "best country" in the WORLD except by the US (people) themselves. Did you know that there is an annual analysis as to which country is the best to live in? The US is never in the top five and sometimes as low as tenth or lower.

That's a bullshit poll anyway and you should know it. The requirement to be on one of the top tiers is socialized medicine and socialism as a general principle when you look at the countries at the top. Thanks for playing.

[tenni]

That's a bullshit poll anyway and you should know it. The requirement to be on one of the top tiers is socialized medicine and socialism as a general principle when you look at the countries at the top. Thanks for playing.

hmm So the only polls that are valid are polls that show the US as " best in the world", the "land of the free" and done by US sources?
Have you considered that the US is behind the rest of the Western world on defining "best"?

The Organization for "Economic Co-operation and Development" has released its Better Life Index, a gauge of what nations boast the highest quality of life, based on measures like housing, income, education and safety. *Full list of OECD considerations: housing, income, jobs, community, education, environment, governance, health, life satisfaction, safety, work-life balance.

Head quarters
OECD
2, rue André Pascal
75775 Paris Cedex 16
France The OECD is represented outside of Paris by Centres. They serve as regional contacts for the full range of OECD activities, from the sales of publications, to inquiries from the media, to liaison with governments, parliaments, business, labour and civil society.
Berlin, (http://www.oecd.org/pages/0,3417,de_34968570_34968795_1_1_1_1_1,00.html)Mexi co City (http://www.oecd.org/pages/0,3417,es_36288966_36287974_1_1_1_1_1,00.html), Tokyo (http://www.oecdtokyo.org/),Washington (http://www.oecdwash.org/)



from their website
The mission of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) is to promote policies that will improve the economic and social well-being of people around the world.

"The OECD provides a forum in which governments can work together to share experiences and seek solutions to common problems. We work with governments to understand what drives economic, social and environmental change. We measure productivity and global flows of trade and investment. We analyse and compare data to predict future trends. We set international standards on a wide range of things, from agriculture and tax to the safety of chemicals.


We look, too, at issues that directly affect the lives of ordinary people, like how much they pay in taxes and social security, and how much leisure time they can take. We compare how different countries’ school systems are readying their young people for modern life, and how different countries’ pension systems will look after their citizens in old age.

Drawing on facts and real-life experience, we recommend policies designed to make the lives of ordinary people better. We work with business, through the Business and Industry Advisory Committee to the OECD, and with labour, through the Trade Union Advisory Committee. We have active contacts as well with other civil society organisations. The common thread of our work is a shared commitment to market economies backed by democratic institutions and focused on the wellbeing of all citizens. Along the way, we also set out to make life harder for the terrorists, tax dodgers, crooked businessmen and others whose actions undermine a fair and open society."

[BiCplAz]

BicplAZ, I disagree with your statements that President Barack Obama is not an American. He was born in Hawaii, the birth certificate was released, that's a dead horse, stop beating it please, it's not gonna get up and run the Kentucky derby. Yes, I am an American and I have lived abroad, I have also lived in several states and I continue to the see the beauty in our country, the way neighbors will help neighbors, the way we come together in times of tragedy and send one voice out to the world. We are America, we will not be terrorized. We will fight back. We get dragged into other nation's wars by the United Nations. We are the strong arm of the United Nations. We do our duty and that makes us hated around the world by those that know that freedom will ring for anyone who wants to reach for it. We do it knowing that others will hate us for it, but we do it for the men, women and children in those countries that can't fight back.

Jamie was absolutely correct in that people have been saying for years that America is declining, they will still be saying for it years. We are on the road to recovery and if other nations would quit begging aid we might get their sooner. But we could no more let people starve in the aftermath of a national disaster than we could let Canada be attacked. We are the watchdogs on the border. And I really don't care if those non Americans don't like it.

I said his citizenship was another story, I was talking about him being a socialist. Read before answering, for Christ sake.

[darkeyes]

I said his citizenship was another story, I was talking about him being a socialist. Read before answering, for Christ sake.
Trust me.. I am a socialist.... and know sociailism.. Obama is about as much of a socialist as Blair was here... less I would say.. much less.

[nutme]

Trust me.. I am a socialist.... and know sociailism.. Obama is about as much of a socialist as Blair was here... less I would say.. much less.

Obama is only constrained by a little thing we call a Constitution. I don't think Obama is a socialist......he's a Marxist.

[darkeyes]

Obama is only constrained by a little thing we call a Constitution. I don't think Obama is a socialist......he's a Marxist.

Sometimes some people don't haff gimme a giggle on this site... sometimes they gimme a huge belly laff at the things they say... u wouldn't know a Marxist if he got up an slapped ya in the face... how do I know this? The very words u use betray ur ignorance...

[tenni]

Why is it that some posters from the US use words like "socialism" as if it is a dirty word? Victims of fear mongering? ;)

All social democracies have constitutions. Some better than the US constitution in certain areas.

[12voltman59]

The thing with being a Marxist--there has not been a real once since Marx died----it was a term that got appropriated for some very fucked up systems--and Barack Obama is hardly a communist or a socialist---he is too much in the pockets of the Wall Street people---look at the sort who populate his Dept of The Treasury---all of them come from the big financial firms past and present like Goldman Sachs and such.

What does piss me off when it comes to the sorts of things that I posted up on the original post is because those sorts of things are really non-issues when we take a look at the bigger picture---being that we have an economy that has basically been doing away with the sorts of jobs for like three decades now that both created and sustained the "great American middle class" with that process beginning back when Barack Obama was like five years old or maybe even before he was born---but sure has escalated in the past decade or so---with those jobs in large measure moving to a place that I can recall being called as a kid: "Communist Red China." A place that still is a "communist" country and it wasn't any socialist or Marxist elements in our country that did that--it was the owners of those companies like Nike, RubberMaid, and on with that list way too long to list here.

The Tea Party type Republicans sold themselves as being all about "JOBS, JOBS, JOBS" to get elected in 2010--but for the most part in most states all they have done is introduce legislation to MANDATE that a woman who seeks an abortion has to undergo invasive medical procedures like vaginal ultrasound, trying to totally outlaw abortions in many places, enacting laws that restrict access to voting, requiring the teaching of Creationism in schools like Tennessee just did this week--all kinds of "stupid shit"

So yeah--I do get pissed about such nonsense---when our dear leaders, should go and start trying to figure out how they are going to actually encourage economic development and dealing with issues that are not off in the far distant future like crumbling infrastructure---as unsexy as that might be--but if things like that aren't addressed and done so soon---then many other issues are moot because we simply are not going to be able to not only keep what we have in working order and be safe---we can forget about having anything new because even if ya built it--it will be like the bible story about building a castle on a foundation of sand over one of stone--it might last for awhile but its eventually going to crumble and blow away and that is not being chicken little and "oh my fucking God, the sky is falling"--it is a real hard and fast coming situation and that is only one such thing of this sort we face and you as easy as it is to go and say: "that's no big problem"--I may be slightly overstating the case---but sometimes you do have to engage in a bit of hyperbole to get anyone to even consider such things--I'd rather not have to resort to that--but hell---pretty much everyone does these days and you have to do something to get yourself heard over the din.

[Gearbox]

You missed the point, Gear. Unless you want to say you don't bitch about your own country. Every country in the world is experiencing issues at this point whether it is economical or natural. But for all the faults I find with America, I'm still glad to live in the land of the free.
Well you didn't ask which is your personal favourite country. I might have given the correct answer had you done so.:bigrin:
Same here though, I like living here despite a LOT of crazy crap going on with 'those in power' etc. Home sweet home.

[slipnslide]

That's a bullshit poll anyway and you should know it. The requirement to be on one of the top tiers is socialized medicine and socialism as a general principle when you look at the countries at the top. Thanks for playing.

Or maybe those principles make for better countries - and why those people report being happier and live longer.

[slipnslide]

Sometimes some people don't haff gimme a giggle on this site... sometimes they gimme a huge belly laff at the things they say... u wouldn't know a Marxist if he got up an slapped ya in the face... how do I know this? The very words u use betray ur ignorance...

Some guy on the TV told him them that Obama is a Marxist! So it *must* be true! :bigrin:

[slipnslide]

Why is it that some posters from the US use words like "socialism" as if it is a dirty word? Victims of fear mongering? ;)

All social democracies have constitutions. Some better than the US constitution in certain areas.

I'm not sure they even know what it means. People on the TV tell them it's bad and un-American - that's all the evidence they need.

I believe the Americans are told that so they'll work harder for fewer benefits making someone else richer. Now *that's* the American way!

[BiCplAz]

Trust me.. I am a socialist.... and know sociailism.. Obama is about as much of a socialist as Blair was here... less I would say.. much less.

So u want to sit on ur ass and let a government take care of u. Wait until u get old and they wont do it any more. There has NEVER been a socialist government that worked in the history of man.

[nutme]

I really do love how people who do not live in America know so god damn much as to what goes on here and what the thinking is of an American. It goes well beyond arrogance.

[falcondfw]

Some guy on the TV told him them that Obama is a Marxist! So it *must* be true! :bigrin:
Obama IS a Marxist. Look at the doctrines he espouses - class warfare, telling us how evil the rich are, WHEN HE'S ONE OF THEM! Wanting the government to control 1/6 of the US Economy (healthcare). Sorry, but centralized, government control is a main tenant of Marxism/Socialism/Leninism/Communism. Actually, he wants to control more than just healthcare. Look at how his government (and yes, he is involved) picks winners and losers in the energy sector - BILLIONS of dollars handed to these solar energy firms, even though his own government accountants warned against it. Now where are those companies, those jobs. They are in bankruptcy court. Look at the Keystone Pipeline. He kills construction of something that would raise supply of oil, lower the cost of oil, and provide tens or hundreds of thousands of jobs. Sounds like a marxist/communist doctrine to me.
I could go on and on, but if you don't see how his record shows what a communist/marxist/socialist he is and how much he loves government control of the people by now, you probably never will.

[slipnslide]

So u want to sit on ur ass and let a government take care of u. Wait until u get old and they wont do it any more. There has NEVER been a socialist government that worked in the history of man.

LOL. You're so well programmed! That's what you've been *told* socialism is - we'll let you in on a secret - that's not it. But shhh, don't tell the other pawns.

[slipnslide]

I really do love how people who do not live in America know so god damn much as to what goes on here and what the thinking is of an American. It goes well beyond arrogance.

You're probably not aware, but it's well discussed around the world how the Americans live in a bubble and don't know what goes on outside their borders. It's likely why it's so easy to program the whole lot of you to believe crazy ideas about the evils of socialism.

[slipnslide]

So u want to sit on ur ass and let a government take care of u. Wait until u get old and they wont do it any more.

Come on up to Canada. You'll get the exact same quality of health care service at age 91 that you get at age 19.

[cbj4162]

agree .....


Fran, you don't live here and just because you read something in the Guardian it doesn't make you qualified to make that comment to someone who does live here. Not that I agree fully with CBJ but there is no denying that NAFTA had an adverse effect on our economy.

[cbj4162]

my thoughts do not neccessarily hint at other nations being kept down, it's more of an open border thing .....


UOTE=darkeyes;227489]The Guardian is but a handy website for some issues.. I read and think a lot more about issues than just the Guardian.. I also know a little more about economics than u give me credit for and know that what his post hinted at was that to stay top dog economic growth elsewhere must be held back... the British tried that and fell on their face.. no hun.. what he said was utter tosh.. it is still utter tosh no matter what country or countries economy we consider.. my exclamation of disdain was on the principle he was espousing.. not the fact that he is American and talking of the US...

..and I can make certain judgements about your country and others because I read much more than one newspaper and research many resources and because I am interested.. just as u do about other countries about which u have commented upon so knowledgeably in these pages over time and will again no doubt.. as do many Britons and Americans and people from just about anywhere u care to mention when making statements about other countries.. we all have views about other places... it is no used getting narked at us simply because we have views about a place simply because it happens to be yours and give vent to them..[/QUOTE]

[Paul B.]

Ironically, just began rereading Morris Berman's "Why America Failed" this evening. Would anyone be headed in the general direction of Denmark, pray tell?

[nutme]

You're probably not aware, but it's well discussed around the world how the Americans live in a bubble and don't know what goes on outside their borders. It's likely why it's so easy to program the whole lot of you to believe crazy ideas about the evils of socialism.

Jealous, aren't you. So unbecoming.

[tenni]

Jealous, aren't you. So unbecoming.

Why would we who live in social democracies be jealous of you? Are you one of the US billiionaires? You are rather offensive (unintentionally?) when you put socialism down. You do appear to be crazy lunatics and easily programmed to us when you spout off about socialism and compare it to Marxism. It is just like the fear of communism that the US people use to spout. I've been to the Soviet Union and I wouldn't want to live in that type of country. I did see it for what it was though. There was nothing to fear..but fear itself.

I do think that most people are proud of their country though. That is completely understandable if they like where they live. It does read as odd for some person living in the USA to write about being proud all while posting a lie about what country that they live in? If you are proud of the country, you should list it as where you live if you live there.

[BiCplAz]

You're probably not aware, but it's well discussed around the world how the Americans live in a bubble and don't know what goes on outside their borders. It's likely why it's so easy to program the whole lot of you to believe crazy ideas about the evils of socialism.

"Well discussed around the world"??? You've never gotten your head out of your ass much less been in an around the world discussion. I am always amazed how the eastern Canadians can be so narrow and socialistic and those in the central and west are so much more likable and level headed.

[nutme]

Why would we who live in social democracies be jealous of you? Are you one of the US billiionaires? You are rather offensive (unintentionally?) when you put socialism down. You do appear to be crazy lunatics and easily programmed to us when you spout off about socialism and compare it to Marxism. It is just like the fear of communism that the US people use to spout. I've been to the Soviet Union and I wouldn't want to live in that type of country. I did see it for what it was though. There was nothing to fear..but fear itself.

I do think that most people are proud of their country though. That is completely understandable if they like where they live. It does read as odd for some person living in the USA to write about being proud all while posting a lie about what country that they live in? If you are proud of the country, you should list it as where you live if you live there.

Listen, dimbulb........if you're going to accuse me of something, at least get it right. I never likened socialism to marxism; I stated that Obama is a Marxist. Cripes almighty, you people really are tools of idiocy.

[DuckiesDarling]

Why would we who live in social democracies be jealous of you? Are you one of the US billiionaires? You are rather offensive (unintentionally?) when you put socialism down. You do appear to be crazy lunatics and easily programmed to us when you spout off about socialism and compare it to Marxism. It is just like the fear of communism that the US people use to spout. I've been to the Soviet Union and I wouldn't want to live in that type of country. I did see it for what it was though. There was nothing to fear..but fear itself.

I do think that most people are proud of their country though. That is completely understandable if they like where they live. It does read as odd for some person living in the USA to write about being proud all while posting a lie about what country that they live in? If you are proud of the country, you should list it as where you live if you live there.


Tenni, your sideswipe at me is completely uncalled for, especially when I have posted the reason I list where I do. But since your tiny little brain can't hold a thought longer than a fleas.. I'll say it again. When I had it listed as my state in the United States, I got hookup requests from bisexual males who supposedly were here to find a discreet male per the profile yet were pming females. I got one while I was in New Zealand with LDD that was pretty much nothing but a phone number and call me to hook up. I changed my location and I have no intention of changing back.

[*pan*]

socialism is everything for the society, common freedoms can be taken at the whim of society. the constitution is in the way here because it puts restraints on government as to what they can and can't do with it's people. the founding fathers put these restraints into the law of the land to protect what they fought for and that was freedom, socialism being society, communism being community, these were all things taught in school as bad and didn't work. the u.s.s.r. took communism to the extreme, and with the present mind set of society what makes any one think it will not end up the same way. in communism one is told what jobs they are suited to hold to benifit society. what kind of house or property they can have, how many cars they are allowed to have if any at all depending on the need to benifit society, for nothing is owned privately everything is done for society. laws now intrude on private land owners telling them what they can and can't do with their land, taxes keep increasing on all sorts of goods in an attempt to keep existing laws on the books and active rather then taking a look at present laws and laws in the past and the benifit of having such laws. as for people in other countries commenting on the problems in the u.s. i say welcome and thanks, and remember my history during the reveloutition other countries also had they ideas and comments and they helped the people to fight the red coats, france for one supported the reveloution because of their love of freedom. for i see some of them are more in touch with whats going on here then the sheeple living here who are happy being led and told what they can and can't do with their posessions and family. if the founding fathers were to suddenly awake and walk the streets again here in america they would be disgusted and want to go to war with the facist government we have now. they would most likely be jailed or carted off to a nut house because of their love and beliefs in freedom. these people went to war wit ha world power because they felt over taxed and too much regulation on the people. well the red coats are back but the people instead of getting mad are convinced to lay down and take it. all the founding fathers warned about the ever encroaching power of government. and the sheeple here just keep giving them more and more power letting them make any laws they can bullshit the sheeple into accepting. i am glad i am so old that i will not have to put up with it for too many more years, but i have been fortunate to have had and expirence what true freedom is. i have seen it comming for years and tried to warn people 30 years ago about what is happening right now but people said nah they would never do that the constitution will protect us. yea right. power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. it sickens me to even have to discuss what should not need to be discussed in a so called free nation. i guess the only thing free here is the freedom to let the government do what it wants to. because that's what is going to happen anyway. this is my rant so take it where you will. the sheeple who accept and do what they are told know who they are.

[darkeyes]

france for one supported the reveloution because of their love of freedom.

Not so.. France supported the revolution because it was still smarting from the loss of its North American colonies and because of its historical rivalry with Britain. It saw an opportunity to gain a toehold back into North America and much economic benefit, possibly even in time the recovery of French Canada under its crown. It had nothing whatsoever to do with France (at least not France the state) loving freedom. It gained nothing from its support of the Americans except bankruptcy for the hoped for benefits did not materialise as the former colonists preferred to renew their economic relationship with the British.

That the US revolution had an influence on the French is undoubted and its success was a factor in the subsequent French revolution which began in 1789 as was the economic hardship and social deprivation caused by the French failure to profit from the war. France was tyranny which supported the revolutionary war for its own reasons.. it had nothing to do with France as a state being a lover of freedom. French involvement in the American struggle for freedom, and the downfall of its political system has lessons for anyone who cares to learn them, many of which are applicable to the plight of the US today..

[falcondfw]

Basically, whatever flavor you choose - socialism, marxism, lennonism, communism, or any of the others like it, I don't want government controlling me or telling me what I can and cannot do.
I don't want them telling me I am too old to get a hip replacement if I need one at 81 years old. I don't want them to tell me I can't get a heart stent because I am over age 65 so they can save money. If I have the money, I want the best care available. I don't want it rationed.
And I don't want the government taking any more of my money than they already do. They can't manage what they have, which is why we have a 15 Trillion dollar debt. Sweden has between a 29 and 57% personal income tax rate with a VAT of 25%. Who the hell wants that?

[darkeyes]

We from outside of the US are at least as qualified to comment on US matters as Americans are about what goes on outside of its borders. This is not 1912 but 2012 and the day of global communication enables us to view other places and what goes on there as never before. We may not know a country as well as those who live there yet but that does not mean we do not have knowledge of what goes on in other lands. None of us from outside have ever claimed we know the US better than its citizens or anyone else who lives there, but as Americans have a right to express a view of what goes on in my country or anywhere else, we have exactly that right to comment on what we know of others. We will get things wrong, but sometimes those of us who are outside do have a perspective which is as valid as any Americans make, for from outside it is possible to see things that those who are too close to an issue do not.. and we have many similarities between our countries and the problems they face and the problems people in those countries face, and wish to share experience which can open eyes to other possibilities and bring to attention things which internal mainstream media or politics do not... the days of isolation are long gone and I think that is a great thing, although I do know many would disagree..

[darkeyes]

Basically, whatever flavor you choose - socialism, marxism, lennonism, communism, or any of the others like it, I don't want government controlling me or telling me what I can and cannot do.
I don't want them telling me I am too old to get a hip replacement if I need one at 81 years old. I don't want them to tell me I can't get a heart stent because I am over age 65 so they can save money. If I have the money, I want the best care available. I don't want it rationed.
And I don't want the government taking any more of my money than they already do. They can't manage what they have, which is why we have a 15 Trillion dollar debt. Sweden has between a 29 and 57% personal income tax rate with a VAT of 25%. Who the hell wants that?Socialism isn't about government controlling people but people working together for the good of all within a democratic system where government such as it exists is truly of the people and for the people and by the people.. government would be controlled by the people because it is the people who are the government.

[falcondfw]

Socialism isn't about government controlling people but people working together for the good of all within a democratic system where government such as it exists is truly of the people and for the people and by the people.. government would be controlled by the people because it is the people who are the government.

"Social democrats (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy) advocate redistributive taxation in the form of social welfare and government regulation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_interventionism) of capital within the framework of a market economy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_economy)."

There are many different forms of socialism. Some have more government control. Some have slightly less. Regardless, the above statement is what I object to in my politicians. If I bust my ass to earn a good living, who the hell are they to take it from me and give to someone else with less ambition or even the same ambition?
We already have government regulation choking off the ability to create new companies (and jobs) and to innovate. We don't need any more.
And as for taxes, we have a bomb ready to explode in January 2013, when the "Bush era tax cuts" expire, the 2 year "Social Security tax holiday" expires, and the taxes for Obamacare kick in to full gear. I have heard estimates that just the Obamacare taxes alone will cost the average family of 4 an extra $8,000 per year. Who has that kind of money to give to the government in addition to what they take? Sorry, you can keep your socialism, whichever flavor you advocate.
And if socialism is so great, as is practiced in Europe and, to a lesser degree, Canada, then why is over half of Europe teetering on the brink of Economic collapse? Why does Spain have an unemployment rate in the neighborhood of 25%? Why does Germany (primarily) have to keep bailing out all these other countries? Greece can't manage it's money so Germany and England have to give them hundreds of billions of dollars? Where does this make sense?

[darkeyes]

"Social democrats (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy) advocate redistributive taxation in the form of social welfare and government regulation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_interventionism) of capital within the framework of a market economy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_economy)."

There are many different forms of socialism. Some have more government control. Some have slightly less. Regardless, the above statement is what I object to in my politicians. If I bust my ass to earn a good living, who the hell are they to take it from me and give to someone else with less ambition or even the same ambition?
We already have government regulation choking off the ability to create new companies (and jobs) and to innovate. We don't need any more.
And as for taxes, we have a bomb ready to explode in January 2013, when the "Bush era tax cuts" expire, the 2 year "Social Security tax holiday" expires, and the taxes for Obamacare kick in to full gear. I have heard estimates that just the Obamacare taxes alone will cost the average family of 4 an extra $8,000 per year. Who has that kind of money to give to the government in addition to what they take? Sorry, you can keep your socialism, whichever flavor you advocate.
And if socialism is so great, as is practiced in Europe and, to a lesser degree, Canada, then why is over half of Europe teetering on the brink of Economic collapse? Why does Spain have an unemployment rate in the neighborhood of 25%? Why does Germany (primarily) have to keep bailing out all these other countries? Greece can't manage it's money so Germany and England have to give them hundreds of billions of dollars? Where does this make sense?
Falcon, Europe does not practice socialism and never has.. neither does Canada.. all are as committed to the capitalist system as is your own.. almost all at present have governments of the right, many of which are to the right of even the Republican hard liners within the US... what Europe has is a system which has a social safety net through which people should not fall (although they do).. and health services paid for out of taxation. We do not live in a socialist system but socialism has had a marked influence on how each European and the Canadian systems operate. Most people do accept and believe that our systems hav an obligation to its people as well as the people an obligation to the system.. the degree to which each EU state or any other Social Democratic state around the world varies but it is an essential truth that each state (save possibly the UK at present) is committed. That they should not starve, be homeless, be workless, be uneducated or be deprived of top quality health care and other social benefits because they cannot afford to pay for them..that they are not simply cast aside and junked because of circumstance... while some, arguably all of these things are realities, these systems exist to minimise the worst effects of any or all of these evils.

We are high tax economies, yet in Europe our living standards are generally comparable to those of the US, and our lifestyles as good.. we travel more around the world and are less inward looking.. we have less poverty and less ill health because of our health care services that dreaded socialised medicine many Americans seem to hate so much. Most people accept that we should be high tax economies because most accept that the state has an obligation to provide certain public services available which should be available to all, and people more or less are willing to pay for them through taxation.. the argument is how much we pay and not whether we should pay it but it is generally agreed that we should not leave those services to the market or let people suffer because of how much they have in their pay or social security packet.

That within the EU, states aid other states to help keep their economies afloat is in part why the EU was formed... to cooperate with each other for the good of all and to help those who are least able to help themselves and yes, dig member states out of the poop when they acted stupidly either fiscally or socially. The EU is a family of states working for the common good in a much looser union than the US admittedly, yet with very much the same purpose in mind... now is the time when it is up to other member states to make good their promises when some states are in the shit and it doesn't matter whether those states were inept and have fallen into that mire because of that ineptitude or anything else.. for the common good of the whole EU (and almost certainly the world) they should be helped through the worst of times and those states better able to help them are now being asked to make good their word. I would hope that if the day comes when any state within the US should fall into economic difficulties the Union would do all it could with both fiscal and practical help to aid them out of their predicament.. none of this is socialism... it is human and a basic need and desire to help those who are less well off than ourselves when they are in deep trouble.. it is what friends do for each other.

Don't get me wrong here.. there are many within the EU who think as u do and we have many of the same problems u do.. we are in a mess and it will get worse before it gets better.. and not all our solutions will be right and many American ones will be. The difference if I may be so bold between the American and European way is simply this.. our system may not be socialist, but it does have more heart and is built upon compassion..and these things have to be paid for.. few Europeans grudge it.

[Hephaestion]

"Social democrats (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy) advocate redistributive taxation in the form of social welfare and government regulation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_interventionism) of capital within the framework of a market economy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_economy)."

There are many different forms of socialism. Some have more government control. Some have slightly less. Regardless, the above statement is what I object to in my politicians. If I bust my ass to earn a good living, who the hell are they to take it from me and give to someone else with less ambition or even the same ambition?...........

People not doing well is not usually about freeloading or lack of ambition. Usually it's more about lack of opportunity and resource. There is a second component and that is competition. For there to be success implies a winner. If there are winners then there must be losers. Capitalism is not kind to 'losers' and tends to exterminate them. One has only to trawl the histories of corporations in any country to see this in action.



"........We already have government regulation choking off the ability to create new companies (and jobs) and to innovate. We don't need any more. And as for taxes, we have a bomb ready to explode in January 2013, when the "Bush era tax cuts" expire, the 2 year "Social Security tax holiday" expires, and the taxes for Obamacare kick in to full gear. I have heard estimates that just the Obamacare taxes alone will cost the average family of 4 an extra $8,000 per year. Who has that kind of money to give to the government in addition to what they take? Sorry, you can keep your socialism, whichever flavor you advocate......."

Think one needs reminding that for any body to function then there must be adequate reward for the efforts and activities of its participants else a sort of gangrene can set in. One can choose to forget that its participants are people and let them perish, the sort of thing that happens in an unchecked global free market economy. That I see as what was being fortold in one of volty's 3 articles. The aspiring middle class (as if there should be any classes) will be quietly eliminated working towards a sort of polar 'have' and 'have nots' situation. After all, one can get cheap workers abroad forgetting that to sell anything one needs a population capable of buying.

Look at what happens when this basic principle collapses. In history it has spawned communist and facist revolutions. Wasn't there once a basic tennet that there should be 'no taxation without representaiton'?

There they were, this struggling body of people being exploited, where there was all take and no give i.e. no social conscience, no investment in the people that constituted that body. It was then all about unbridled capitalism. The war against the French wanting to own a land had cost and the ungrateful inhabitants of that land needed to be taxed to pay for this. It is a pity that the great nation that emerged from this has lately largely lost its way and is ignoring the lessons from yesteryear.

One lesson stands out - If there is resulting debt then perhaps the cost of wars should be taken into account. Apparently every time that a missile is fired from ana aeroplane it costs tens of thousands of pounds / dollars (name your currency)



........And if socialism is so great, as is practiced in Europe and, to a lesser degree, Canada, then why is over half of Europe teetering on the brink of Economic collapse? Why does Spain have an unemployment rate in the neighborhood of 25%? Why does Germany (primarily) have to keep bailing out all these other countries? Greece can't manage it's money so Germany and England have to give them hundreds of billions of dollars? Where does this make sense?

Think that you'll find that it was failed, unchecked capitalism that caused the problem in these countries not failed socialism.

[tenni]

Listen, dimbulb........if you're going to accuse me of something, at least get it right. I never likened socialism to marxism; I stated that Obama is a Marxist. Cripes almighty, you people really are tools of idiocy.

No you did not but someone from your choir(philosophical perspective) did. You may want to read rule 2 about personal attacks. Discuss the issue not the person. Where is your proof that Obama is a Marxist btw? Dropping an accusation without evidence to support your thesis is well weak. Give the key components of Marxism and relate this to your president's practices.

"And if socialism is so great, as is practiced in Europe and, to a lesser degree, Canada, then why is over half of Europe teetering on the brink of Economic collapse?"

Canada is a social democracy to some extent. It is still doing relatively fine in comparision to the US and other G8 countries. Why? Up until the right winged Conservative government was elected, Canada had ten years of surplus budgets while the US and some Euro countries had huge deficits without increasing taxation. That placed Canada in a very different fiscal position that the US,Greece and some other European Union countries. It is not the socialism that causes a society to decline as much as poor fiscal management. The US is in a position that it is in due to a/ poor banking practices with poor regulations(socialism), b/ starting two wars without increasing taxes for the first time in its history c/ partially tied in with poor banking practices its poorly regulated housing market then d/ international fiscal matters. Perhaps if the US did not have the first three factors it might be doing better. There may be other reasons but socialism is not one of them because the US doesn't have a socialistic government. (circular logic?)

Another interesting factor in both the US and Canada is that the right winged political parties speak about cut backs but more than not when they get in power they increase spending while reducing taxation on the corporations and upper income brackets. The US people just have to look at the spending practices of the last presidency(Bush).

[Jobelorocks]

Sometimes some people don't haff gimme a giggle on this site... sometimes they gimme a huge belly laff at the things they say... u wouldn't know a Marxist if he got up an slapped ya in the face... how do I know this? The very words u use betray ur ignorance...

Darkeyes, while I agree Obama is no socialist or Marxist, they way you write does make it hard for me to take you seriously. Unless you are using correct spellings, and using proper English, I am not going to take you all to seriously in any sort of intellectual, political, philosophical, or really any sort of debate. I know that you are an intelligent person, but your "writing style" makes it hard to take you seriously in any sort of debate.

[falcondfw]

"Think that you'll find that it was failed, unchecked capitalism that caused the problem in these countries not failed socialism."

No. I don't think I'll find that. The thing that is bankrupting the countries of the European Union is the high cost of the social welfare state without having the money to pay for those safety nets or long vacations. All of the government run health care, the shutting down (basically) of business for the month of August. These are the kinds of things that bankrupt countries.

Nothing is free. There is no free ride. It all has to be paid for some how. No matter what a government tells you, you can't shut business down for a month without your competition getting a jump on you and you can't have medicine from cradle to grave that covers everything without paying for it. As long as I am going to pay for it anyway, I want the choice of where to go and what procedure to have. My doctor and I can make that decision just fine. We don't need the government's help.
And just for the record, there still is a place that holds to the basic tennet of "no taxation without representation". It's called America. We kicked out the last people who tried it and we started doing it again in 2010. We're about to finish the job in November. Why do you think the "Tea Party" came into existence in 2009? Why do you think so many people are screaming about taxes, the deficit, and the debt over here? We don't want to become Greece's big brother and go down the same road they have. We see the perils. At least, those of us outside of Washington see them.

[falcondfw]

"The US people just have to look at the spending practices of the last presidency(Bush)."

Seriously? Have you looked at the spending habits of the current President? Bush gave us 3 trillion in new debt in 8 years. Obama has given us 5 trillion in 3 years. Now who was the more profligate spender?

[12voltman59]

Yet one more example of what I call, STUPID SHIT: http://thinkprogress.org/health/2012/04/13/463317/tennessee-anti-hand-holding/

I am sorry if my posting up things of this nature piss some people off, but tough.

Can anyone not agree that wasting time on the part of an elected body to draft, work through the process, then pass things of this nature when we have so many other REAL and pressing issues is not totally foolhardy and is a waste of time and resources and certainly the attention of lawmakers.

That we get more of this sort of stuff these days from so many of our state legislatures just goes to prove my point that our "leaders" are much like like the saying: "Nero fiddled while Rome burned!!"

[darkeyes]

"The US people just have to look at the spending practices of the last presidency(Bush)."

Seriously? Have you looked at the spending habits of the current President? Bush gave us 3 trillion in new debt in 8 years. Obama has given us 5 trillion in 3 years. Now who was the more profligate spender?
Bush had his presidency in economic good times.. Obama, like almost every other political leader around the world has been faced with the greatest recession in 80 years as well as the Bush legacy in Iraq and Afghanistan and the war on terror... simply saving the US from complete collapse necessitated such high spending just as other economies required to do the same... subsequent belt tightening is attempting to bring deficits down but it is highly arguable whether or not the pain will prove to be the cure...

[falcondfw]

Bush had his presidency in economic good times.. Obama, like almost every other political leader around the world has been faced with the greatest recession in 80 years as well as the Bush legacy in Iraq and Afghanistan and the war on terror... simply saving the US from complete collapse necessitated such high spending just as other economies required to do the same... subsequent belt tightening is attempting to bring deficits down but it is highly arguable whether or not the pain will prove to be the cure...

Bullshit on the greatest recession in 80 years crap. Reagan inherited worse from Carter and he made the right moves. Obama has made all the wrong moves. By this time in Reagan's first term, we were having 8% GDP growth monthly. Now, we are lucky if we scratch out 2%. How did Reagan do this? HE CUT TAXES!!!! And increased revenue to the treasury by doing so, because of the growth it spurred.

Obama is constantly trying to raise taxes or he will cut them for a month or two, which leads to economic uncertainty. A proper business can't hire if it has no idea what the tax rate will be from month to month. They can't plan for the future without knowing what health care costs will be. That's plain economics 101.

And if you want to blame 4 years of recession on the mess the European economies are in and not see the real problem was the many years of out of control spending not matching revenue, then that is your choice.

If cutting spending on programs they cannot afford is not the cure for governments like Greece, then what is? I am all ears.

[slipnslide]

Basically, whatever flavor you choose - socialism, marxism, lennonism, communism, or any of the others like it, I don't want government controlling me or telling me what I can and cannot do.
I don't want them telling me I am too old to get a hip replacement if I need one at 81 years old. I don't want them to tell me I can't get a heart stent because I am over age 65 so they can save money. If I have the money, I want the best care available. I don't want it rationed.
And I don't want the government taking any more of my money than they already do. They can't manage what they have, which is why we have a 15 Trillion dollar debt. Sweden has between a 29 and 57% personal income tax rate with a VAT of 25%. Who the hell wants that?

Swedes.

[slipnslide]

Socialism isn't about government controlling people but people working together for the good of all within a democratic system where government such as it exists is truly of the people and for the people and by the people.. government would be controlled by the people because it is the people who are the government.

I am trying to understand how Americans don't see this point. Seems us in social democracies view the government as *our* government, whereas Americans view their government as an external entity out to get them.

[nutme]

Tenni, you pull out the rule book whenever it seems to fit you. You and darkeyes take more swipes at people here than anyone else. When you are called on it, you revert back to the rules. Get a life.

[darkeyes]

Bullshit on the greatest recession in 80 years crap. Reagan inherited worse from Carter and he made the right moves. Obama has made all the wrong moves. By this time in Reagan's first term, we were having 8% GDP growth monthly. Now, we are lucky if we scratch out 2%. How did Reagan do this? HE CUT TAXES!!!! And increased revenue to the treasury by doing so, because of the growth it spurred.

Obama is constantly trying to raise taxes or he will cut them for a month or two, which leads to economic uncertainty. A proper business can't hire if it has no idea what the tax rate will be from month to month. They can't plan for the future without knowing what health care costs will be. That's plain economics 101.

And if you want to blame 4 years of recession on the mess the European economies are in and not see the real problem was the many years of out of control spending not matching revenue, then that is your choice.

If cutting spending on programs they cannot afford is not the cure for governments like Greece, then what is? I am all ears.
Regarding Regan, history remembers better than u I think, and few if any even right wing economists think what Reagan inherited remotely comes near to the mess which exists now and Reagan it was whose tenure as President began the decades of US fiscal deficits.. however, enough of distant history.. as I recall the mess we are in now began over ur way not on this side of the pond... whether spending was out of control in Europe or not is debatable but certainly if that was so it became that way out of necessity to prevent a crumbling of the entire economic system and to save the skins of some very precious capitalists and banks balls.. what is certain is that when the US economy went belly up the dominoes in the rest of the world followed as is ever the case when the US hits economic hard times.. the sheer power of the US economy and its near collapse made that inevitable..

If u want to plan a business and know what the health costs will be, then abolish the system u have now and develop a National Health Service paid out of taxation... seems simple to me... there is a case for improved stability in tax rates but governments of all colours do enjoy to play with them a great deal to help pay for their pet projects.. right wing governments are no different..

.. and occasionally there is a case for cutting programmes.. no government of any political complexion would deny that.. what is always highly contentious is which programmes should be cut and which ring fenced... and that depends on the political leanings of those in power.. the problem with Greece is that by leaving them to their own devices and not providing them with help, the solution becomes worse than the ailment and a greater tragedy would unfold than is currently facing the country now. As it is, Greece faces years of increasing economic misery and ever increasing poverty and there is no guarantee that whatever the EU or anyone else does will do the trick. But standing by and letting the place disintegrate is not an option and world ultimately would harm the world economy than the present intervention. It is in for a long hard slog.

[darkeyes]

Tenni, you pull out the rule book whenever it seems to fit you. You and darkeyes take more swipes at people here than anyone else. When you are called on it, you revert back to the rules. Get a life.Tenni can answer for himself but I do not take "swipes" at people as a rule.. I take issue with what they say and the arguments they make.. I argue on issues not personalities.. if I make a comment about something a person has said which I believe in error I say so in my own way which I did when the issue of Obama being a socialist or Marxist was raised and taking issue with the above comment..none is personal from my point of view, but I speak as I find and allow others to do the same..

[tenni]

Falcon
You seem like an articulate fellow. You make comments about various presidencies ie Carter. When I google I find that Carter and Clinton are being referred to as the last presidencies where there was an actual surplus. Reagan inherited a surplus according to some information while you state that Reagan inherited a deficit? Can you give us your sources?

I found another little item of interest(to me) stating that Obama changed the accounting practice.

"The Obama Administration also made four significant accounting changes to more accurately report the total spending by the federal government. The four changes were:


accounting for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (”overseas military contingencies”) in the budget rather than through the use of supplemental appropriations;
assuming the Alternative Minimum Tax will be indexed for inflation;
accounting for the full costs of Medicare reimbursements; and
anticipating the inevitable expenditures for natural disaster relief.

According to administration officials, these changes will make the debt over ten years look $2.7 trillion larger than it would otherwise appear."

2001–2005 debt is increased +2,135 trillion +7.1% increase of debt to GDP
2005–2009 debt is increased +4,521 trillion or 20.7% increase of debt to GDP
2009–2011 debt is increased +4,334 trillion or 15.4% increase of debt to GDP

Now, what percentage of the increased debt is due to interest payments on the debt escalating while attempting to maintain government costs? If your debt is increasing then so are your interest payments. There was discussion a year or so ago that the increasing debt will eventually consume all of the US taxation if measures are not taken. (similar to Greece)

Now, this is not of any importance to me, I'm just curious basically about how people in the USA throw around the term socialism mixing it with Marxism and Communism as if socialism is a bad word and the blame for any contemporary countries faults. You(Falcon) seem to be slightly aware of Marxism but also mixing it up with socialism and communism. All are differing theories with subset theories and no country's government has really been pure models of these theories (so I read). If you don't want any form of socialism, why not privatize the US military?(just kidn')

Still waiting for the detailed posting of Marxism and how Obama is a Marxist. (Falcon came close but where is Nutme's clear concise write up)

[falcondfw]

Swedes.

Ummm. No, Slip. I meant what I wrote, the way I wrote it. I was saying the COUNTRY - SWEDEN - has between a 29 and 57% personal income tax. When I mean the people of Sweden, I will say it. But thank you for the English lesson.

[falcondfw]

I am trying to understand how Americans don't see this point. Seems us in social democracies view the government as *our* government, whereas Americans view their government as an external entity out to get them.

1. There are many different forms of Socialism. Thus, there are many different kinds of Social Democracies. The Socialist experiments we have seen around the globe have scared most Americans away from Socialism.
2. I think it is presumptuous of you to speak for Social Democracies around the world and how the people view their government. Have you asked the people of Greece? I would seriously doubt they see the government as a government of the people.
3. We don't view our government that way, at least I don't. I view it as an entity that is VASTLY overstepping its bounds. The bounds that were written into our governing document, the Constitution. I view our government (for the most part) as a collection of idiots who could not hold a job in the real world and who are using questionable tactics to enrich themselves on the backs of the people who pay their salaries.

[falcondfw]

Regarding Regan, history remembers better than u I think, and few if any even right wing economists think what Reagan inherited remotely comes near to the mess which exists now and Reagan it was whose tenure as President began the decades of US fiscal deficits.. however, enough of distant history.. as I recall the mess we are in now began over ur way not on this side of the pond... whether spending was out of control in Europe or not is debatable but certainly if that was so it became that way out of necessity to prevent a crumbling of the entire economic system and to save the skins of some very precious capitalists and banks balls.. what is certain is that when the US economy went belly up the dominoes in the rest of the world followed as is ever the case when the US hits economic hard times.. the sheer power of the US economy and its near collapse made that inevitable..

If u want to plan a business and know what the health costs will be, then abolish the system u have now and develop a National Health Service paid out of taxation... seems simple to me... there is a case for improved stability in tax rates but governments of all colours do enjoy to play with them a great deal to help pay for their pet projects.. right wing governments are no different..

.. and occasionally there is a case for cutting programmes.. no government of any political complexion would deny that.. what is always highly contentious is which programmes should be cut and which ring fenced... and that depends on the political leanings of those in power.. the problem with Greece is that by leaving them to their own devices and not providing them with help, the solution becomes worse than the ailment and a greater tragedy would unfold than is currently facing the country now. As it is, Greece faces years of increasing economic misery and ever increasing poverty and there is no guarantee that whatever the EU or anyone else does will do the trick. But standing by and letting the place disintegrate is not an option and world ultimately would harm the world economy than the present intervention. It is in for a long hard slog.

Darkeyes, we have kept this civil, so far, let's continue on that road. I don't appreciate the backhanded swipe at me, nor was it necessary. My memory is fine. I lived here in the USA through the Carter and Reagan years. Can you say the same? I remember 21% interest rates, jobless rates over 10%, inflation in the teens under Carter. I also remember 8% GDP growth per month, reduced tax rates, increased employment rates under Reagan.
No, he did not decrease spending and if you read his memoirs, that is the one regret he has about his Presidency. It is funny how liberal and Socialist publications try to rewrite history to make it the way THEY think it ought to be. I was there.

As for where the current economic situation began, does it really matter who is to blame? Yes, we had issues. So did Europe. Whether we increased the speed of the European collapse should be left for men far more intelligent than I to debate for many years to come. We had our problems with the housing crisis and several other issues. You had your problems with spending too much and taking in too little.

As for nationalizing health care, Obama is trying that and 67% of the people don't want it. We don't want the extra taxes. We don't want rationed health care. We don't want some stupid bean counting bureaucrat telling us we are too old to get a procedure and that we should just take a pill for the pain and quietly die. Obama had to jam healthcare down our throats. They couldn't even vote on it in the US Senate (cowards). They had to "deem" the bill as passed.

As for businesses, it is not just one or two issues when planning for the future. Stability is everything. We do not have that because of temporary tax juggling, obamacare, over-regulation, and a myriad of other reasons. These are the reasons businesses are not hiring. It is not just one or two issues, but each little piece helps.

I agree with your statement that Greece is in for "a long hard slog". But they should have started cutting programs years ago when they realized things were on an unsustainable course. If they had done that, the pain would be far less right now. We are trying, in the USA, to enforce a little of the fiscal discipline by voting the idiots out and replacing them with people who actually have the guts to take on the socialistic aspects of our government (entitlement programs) and can bring a budget into balance and reduce, not increase the debt.

[falcondfw]

Falcon
You seem like an articulate fellow. You make comments about various presidencies ie Carter. When I google I find that Carter and Clinton are being referred to as the last presidencies where there was an actual surplus. Reagan inherited a surplus according to some information while you state that Reagan inherited a deficit? Can you give us your sources?

I found another little item of interest(to me) stating that Obama changed the accounting practice.

"The Obama Administration also made four significant accounting changes to more accurately report the total spending by the federal government. The four changes were:

accounting for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (”overseas military contingencies”) in the budget rather than through the use of supplemental appropriations;
assuming the Alternative Minimum Tax will be indexed for inflation;
accounting for the full costs of Medicare reimbursements; and
anticipating the inevitable expenditures for natural disaster relief.
According to administration officials, these changes will make the debt over ten years look $2.7 trillion larger than it would otherwise appear."

2001–2005 debt is increased +2,135 trillion +7.1% increase of debt to GDP
2005–2009 debt is increased +4,521 trillion or 20.7% increase of debt to GDP
2009–2011 debt is increased +4,334 trillion or 15.4% increase of debt to GDP

Now, what percentage of the increased debt is due to interest payments on the debt escalating while attempting to maintain government costs? If your debt is increasing then so are your interest payments. There was discussion a year or so ago that the increasing debt will eventually consume all of the US taxation if measures are not taken. (similar to Greece)

Now, this is not of any importance to me, I'm just curious basically about how people in the USA throw around the term socialism mixing it with Marxism and Communism as if socialism is a bad word and the blame for any contemporary countries faults. You(Falcon) seem to be slightly aware of Marxism but also mixing it up with socialism and communism. All are differing theories with subset theories and no country's government has really been pure models of these theories (so I read). If you don't want any form of socialism, why not privatize the US military?(just kidn')

Still waiting for the detailed posting of Marxism and how Obama is a Marxist. (Falcon came close but where is Nutme's clear concise write up)

Thank you for the compliment.

1. We do not privatize the US military, because that is one of the few things in the US Constitution that our federal government is charged with taking care of and maintaining.

2. Clinton WAS the last President where there was an actual surplus. in 1998. And actually, according to the White House's own numbers, Carter ran a deficit every year : http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/Historicals. Choose table 1.1 And interestingly enough, the last time Gross Debt went down as a % of GDP was ... UNDER GEORGE W. BUSH!!!! (table 7.1 on the same page) Clinton and Reagan also reduced debt as a percent of GDP.

3. As for the accounting methods, you can fudge the numbers any way you want, which is why our official unemployment rate is 8.2%, because they no longer count people who have given up looking or who only have a part time job and need a full time one, and those whose unemployment benefits have run out. If these people were counted using the proper way of gathering unemployment figures, our unemployment rate would be somewhere between 12 and 20%, depending on who you listen to.

Finally, I will say it again. As for Socialist/Marxist/Lennonist/Communist doctrine, the important thing I know about them is they all involve government control of the economy and the people. I don't want anything to do with that. Neither do most Americans.

[slipnslide]

Ummm. No, Slip. I meant what I wrote, the way I wrote it. I was saying the COUNTRY - SWEDEN - has between a 29 and 57% personal income tax. When I mean the people of Sweden, I will say it. But thank you for the English lesson.

And then you asked "Who wants that?" and I answered: Swedes. They want that.

[Hephaestion]

"Think that you'll find that it was failed, unchecked capitalism that caused the problem in these countries not failed socialism."

No. I don't think I'll find that. The thing that is bankrupting the countries of the European Union is the high cost of the social welfare state without having the money to pay for those safety nets or long vacations. All of the government run health care, the shutting down (basically) of business for the month of August. These are the kinds of things that bankrupt countries.

Nothing is free. There is no free ride. It all has to be paid for some how. No matter what a government tells you, you can't shut business down for a month without your competition getting a jump on you and you can't have medicine from cradle to grave that covers everything without paying for it. As long as I am going to pay for it anyway, I want the choice of where to go and what procedure to have. My doctor and I can make that decision just fine. We don't need the government's help.
And just for the record, there still is a place that holds to the basic tennet of "no taxation without representation". It's called America. We kicked out the last people who tried it and we started doing it again in 2010. We're about to finish the job in November. Why do you think the "Tea Party" came into existence in 2009? Why do you think so many people are screaming about taxes, the deficit, and the debt over here? We don't want to become Greece's big brother and go down the same road they have. We see the perils. At least, those of us outside of Washington see them.

You are wrong Falcon. It was the myth that the financial world was doing just fine that caused the economic problems in all of our countries. The money world was quite simply lying about its health. Through government we the tax payers have been volunteered to step in to bail them out and consequently are in hock for some time to come.

One should never underestimate the cost of war.

When it comes to medicine and welfare again you are wrong. We pay for everything. There is ample choice here in the uK and throughout the EU. We function as a nation as there are better economies in scale. We do not kick the unfortunate and ill out of the way in our pursuance of life. The only people moaning about taxes are those who are wealthy enough to indulge in avoiding them.

You choose to miss the point about the birth of the USA. It was the lack of social conscience about the American colonies that preciptated the schizm. As for the modern day result, when a nation chooses to see a substatial part of its population as expendable then one wonders whether that claimed representation is worth the paper it was written upon.

As for the name Tea Party that is nothing more than a PR stunt. It's the same old 'same old' with a different wrapper

[slipnslide]

1. There are many different forms of Socialism. Thus, there are many different kinds of Social Democracies. The Socialist experiments we have seen around the globe have scared most Americans away from Socialism.


No. The lies presented to them by their political overlords whose pockets are filled by lobbyists representing big business who fears a shift from the status quo are what "have scared most Americans away from Socialism".

The American system relies on treating regular citizens like a slave class - with incentives. They dangle material goods in front of you and tell you if you work hard you can have this shiny thing - or you can die penniless and alone. All under the guise of "freedom". You're free to do what you want, as long as the overlords approve.

[slipnslide]

This gives some interesting of the failures of capitalism in the modern world and the needs to reinvent it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14972015

[falcondfw]

And then you asked "Who wants that?" and I answered: Swedes. They want that.

ah. Sorry. Misunderstood.

[darkeyes]

Darkeyes, we have kept this civil, so far, let's continue on that road. I don't appreciate the backhanded swipe at me, nor was it necessary. My memory is fine. I lived here in the USA through the Carter and Reagan years. Can you say the same? I remember 21% interest rates, jobless rates over 10%, inflation in the teens under Carter. I also remember 8% GDP growth per month, reduced tax rates, increased employment rates under Reagan.
No, he did not decrease spending and if you read his memoirs, that is the one regret he has about his Presidency. It is funny how liberal and Socialist publications try to rewrite history to make it the way THEY think it ought to be. I was there.

I didn't take a backhanded or any other kind of swipe at u.. merely pointed out something about which I believe u to be in error. I am far too young to remember any of the Carter of Reagan years but can read US treasury reports and history as well as histories of the time..and in memoirs once our time is done we can all express regret for doing or not doing one thing or other... all sides can and do rewrite or at least reinterpret history to suit their own purpose.. not just socialists or liberals.. conservatives and others on the right have always been particularly good at it.

[falcondfw]

You are wrong Falcon. It was the myth that the financial world was doing just fine that caused the economic problems in all of our countries. The money world was quite simply lying about its health. Through government we the tax payers have been volunteered to step in to bail them out and consequently are in hock for some time to come.

One should never underestimate the cost of war.

When it comes to medicine and welfare again you are wrong. We pay for everything. There is ample choice here in the uK and throughout the EU. We function as a nation as there are better economies in scale. We do not kick the unfortunate and ill out of the way in our pursuance of life. The only people moaning about taxes are those who are wealthy enough to indulge in avoiding them.

You choose to miss the point about the birth of the USA. It was the lack of social conscience about the American colonies that preciptated the schizm. As for the modern day result, when a nation chooses to see a substatial part of its population as expendable then one wonders whether that claimed representation is worth the paper it was written upon.

As for the name Tea Party that is nothing more than a PR stunt. It's the same old 'same old' with a different wrapper

Ok. I'm getting confused. First you are talking about the money world lying to us being the cause of all the world's ills, the next sentence you are saying we shouldn't underestimate the cost of war. Which is it?

So what you are saying in the first part (I want to make sure I understand) is that all of the businesses, all of the accountants (including government accountants) have been lying to us about the health of their various industries? That's a pretty large conspiracy and, to be honest, inaccurate, at least as far as the USA goes. If people had examined the financial reports and government reports (a few did), the signs were there of what was about to happen. We just chose to ignore things and try to continue living in our own little fantasy world of "the world is sunshine and everything is fine". lol.

As for the cost of war, who's underestimating it? War is an expensive thing. No one is saying it is not.

As for kicking the unfortunate and ill out of the way, we have safety nets here already. Unemployment compensation, Aid to families and dependent children, medicaid, WIC, Social Security Disability, Medicare. There are also charities. There are plenty of safety nets here. And you might want to ask the people in Canada who come across the border in Niagara Falls for surgeries because they would have to wait years in Canada or they have been denied there, how they feel about the Canadian medical system.

In England, you may like the system, but many of the English I know that have moved to the USA do not feel so fondly about your National Health care after they experience health care over here.

"You choose to miss the point about the birth of the USA. It was the lack of social conscience about the American colonies that preciptated the schizm. As for the modern day result, when a nation chooses to see a substatial part of its population as expendable then one wonders whether that claimed representation is worth the paper it was written upon."

Pardon my French, but what the hell are you talking about?? I thought we both spoke English? The birth of the USA was caused by many factors, but the main one, as someone earlier said, was "taxation without representation".

And if the Tea Party is just a publicity stunt, how do you explain the election results in 2010 and the results that will slap Liberals in the face in November?
The Tea Party, while not an official political party, is molded after taking back our government from the fat cats. Kinda the same way we did in the late 1700's. Only this time, the battle is with votes and ballots, instead of guns and bullets.

[falcondfw]

No. The lies presented to them by their political overlords whose pockets are filled by lobbyists representing big business who fears a shift from the status quo are what "have scared most Americans away from Socialism".

The American system relies on treating regular citizens like a slave class - with incentives. They dangle material goods in front of you and tell you if you work hard you can have this shiny thing - or you can die penniless and alone. All under the guise of "freedom". You're free to do what you want, as long as the overlords approve.

It must be nice to live in a perfect world like Canada where there is never any wrongdoing or scandal.

Our system is not perfect, but it is definitely not the end all/be all of evil you make it out to be.

If we are so horrible towards "the underclass", then how do you explain President Obama or Senator Marco Rubio of Florida?

[falcondfw]

I didn't take a backhanded or any other kind of swipe at u.. merely pointed out something about which I believe u to be in error. I am far too young to remember any of the Carter of Reagan years but can read US treasury reports and history as well as histories of the time..and in memoirs once our time is done we can all express regret for doing or not doing one thing or other... all sides can and do rewrite or at least reinterpret history to suit their own purpose.. not just socialists or liberals.. conservatives and others on the right have always been particularly good at it.

Ummm. Yes, you did. Telling me "history remembers better than u I think" is a swipe. It is saying either I forget the times I live through or it is saying I only remember what I want to. Neither of which is true. We both know that revisionists rewrite history all the time. Who is to say that you are not being fed some revisionist garbage by your media? And most economists agree (over here) that Reagan inherited a FAR worse situation than Obama ever dreamed of.

[falcondfw]

And by the way, to the original poster - 12volt, if this country is so f'd up, there is no door stopping you from leaving and giving up your citizenship. Put your money where your mouth is.

[darkeyes]

Ummm. Yes, you did. Telling me "history remembers better than u I think" is a swipe. It is saying either I forget the times I live through or it is saying I only remember what I want to. Neither of which is true. We both know that revisionists rewrite history all the time. Who is to say that you are not being fed some revisionist garbage by your media? And most economists agree (over here) that Reagan inherited a FAR worse situation than Obama ever dreamed of.
I don't deny your own experience but interpretation of that experience and what it meant in the greater scheme of things, just like any thing else is subjective.. u have one view others take another. I do not dismiss the hardship many had at that time but do have a different view of how both ur and my own governments of the day dealt with them. History does remember more than either of us will ever remember..it was not a swipe at u but simply a fact which none of us can deny. In 30 years people will be pulling both of us up at our interpretation of what we experience now..

Regarding economists, if this downturn as is generally accepted by both sides of the spectrum is the worst in 80 years I have no idea which economists u are referring to because most around the world take a different view and most American ones I have heard or listened to agree.

..and the media of this country does try to feed us all sorts of dross and revisionist garbage... certain parts of our media are far more unscrupulous and dishonest in that regard than anything I know from the US.. which is why I try and find other sources, very often foreign sources, to get to the truth of the matter as best I can..

[darkeyes]

And by the way, to the original poster - 12volt, if this country is so f'd up, there is no door stopping you from leaving and giving up your citizenship. Put your money where your mouth is.
As I understand it American citizens cannot surrender their citizenship, but why leave a country he loves even if he may hate much of what it is and does.. far better to stay and make it better... that's what I call putting money where the mouth is, not running away.. makes it too easy for the opposition doesn't it?;)

[JP1986UM]

As I understand it American citizens cannot surrender their citizenship, but why leave a country he loves even if he may hate much of what it is and does.. far better to stay and make it better... that's what I call putting money where the mouth is, not running away.. makes it too easy for the opposition doesn't it?;)

You would be wrong, we can give up our citizenship. If he hates it here so much, other countries will take someone with certain restrictions. Colombia, Bolivia, Costa Rica....

[slipnslide]

And by the way, to the original poster - 12volt, if this country is so f'd up, there is no door stopping you from leaving and giving up your citizenship. Put your money where your mouth is.

America! Love the status quo or leave it!

[falcondfw]

As I understand it American citizens cannot surrender their citizenship, but why leave a country he loves even if he may hate much of what it is and does.. far better to stay and make it better... that's what I call putting money where the mouth is, not running away.. makes it too easy for the opposition doesn't it?;)

Then he should work to change it, instead of just complaining about it. If he's not willing to work to change it and he doesn't like it, the only options left are 1. Stay and whine and complain and become known as a "grouser". 2. Leave.

[falcondfw]

As I understand it American citizens cannot surrender their citizenship, but why leave a country he loves even if he may hate much of what it is and does.. far better to stay and make it better... that's what I call putting money where the mouth is, not running away.. makes it too easy for the opposition doesn't it?;)
JP is correct. Here is the link: http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html

[falcondfw]

America! Love the status quo or leave it!
Slip,
I know I am beating a dead horse, but I am going to try and use logic one more time with you. If a person does not like what is going on in a country, they have several choices:

1. Leave
2. Stay and whine and complain and become known as a "grouser" and a general PITA.
3. Work to try to fix things the way you want them.

Since I have not seen any postings for "12Volt For Senate", my guess is he is just trying the complaint route. No one wants to hear it from someone who isn't doing anything about it. The other choice is for him to leave. Simple logic and deductive reasoning. Try some.

[slipnslide]

Slip,
I know I am beating a dead horse, but I am going to try and use logic one more time with you. If a person does not like what is going on in a country, they have several choices:

1. Leave
2. Stay and whine and complain and become known as a "grouser" and a general PITA.
3. Work to try to fix things the way you want them.

Since I have not seen any postings for "12Volt For Senate", my guess is he is just trying the complaint route. No one wants to hear it from someone who isn't doing anything about it. The other choice is for him to leave. Simple logic and deductive reasoning. Try some.

You're speculating.

[Gearbox]

4. All professional country runners in the world unite. Start 'borrowing' rocks & soil from home countries. Sail out to predetermined coordinates in the Atlantic ocean. Dump the goods there, until a brand new continent has formed.
Start building and running the new Utopia the way it should be.
All live happily ever after.:)

[darkeyes]

JP is correct. Here is the link: http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html
O well..did say we will get it wrong sometimes.. was only repeating what an American member of this site said once a year or two back.. *makes note* "check facts more carefully!!!"

.. but to leave just cos we don't like the way things are? A bit extreme.. if everyone did that there wouldn't be too many left cos at one time or other just about everyone feels that way.. a rather crass statement if I may say so... and what u call whining and complaining in print is a time honoured method of advertising our dissatisfaction with what is or will be... whatever people's political views I do not think it whining in the least.. but one method of beginning the fight for what people believe.. that it is normally only be one part of a greater overall campaign to achieve our ends is unquestioned but when there are enough who "whine and complain" garners sufficient support it helps motivate many to greater and more direct action. Never underestimate the value of those who "whine and complain". When there is something to complain about it shows scant regard and respect for those with whom we disagree and is a valid aid to the process that we call democracy and of instigating change because whether u like it or not "whining and complaining" do play their part in influencing how people act and how people vote and even sometimes what governments do.. allowing citizens to air their grievances publicly is an important part of freedom of speech and we belittle "whining and complaining" at our peril...

[falcondfw]

4. All professional country runners in the world unite. Start 'borrowing' rocks & soil from home countries. Sail out to predetermined coordinates in the Atlantic ocean. Dump the goods there, until a brand new continent has formed.
Start building and running the new Utopia the way it should be.
All live happily ever after.:)

DAMN! I KNEW I forgot one! lol

[falcondfw]

O well..did say we will get it wrong sometimes.. was only repeating what an American member of this site said once a year or two back.. *makes note* "check facts more carefully!!!"

.. but to leave just cos we don't like the way things are? A bit extreme.. if everyone did that there wouldn't be too many left cos at one time or other just about everyone feels that way.. a rather crass statement if I may say so... and what u call whining and complaining in print is a time honoured method of advertising our dissatisfaction with what is or will be... whatever people's political views I do not think it whining in the least.. but one method of beginning the fight for what people believe.. that it is normally only be one part of a greater overall campaign to achieve our ends is unquestioned but when there are enough who "whine and complain" garners sufficient support it helps motivate many to greater and more direct action. Never underestimate the value of those who "whine and complain". When there is something to complain about it shows scant regard and respect for those with whom we disagree and is a valid aid to the process that we call democracy and of instigating change because whether u like it or not "whining and complaining" do play their part in influencing how people act and how people vote and even sometimes what governments do.. allowing citizens to air their grievances publicly is an important part of freedom of speech and we belittle "whining and complaining" at our peril...

I am not trying to be extreme. I am just stating the options.

As for "beginning the fight for what people believe", then he needs to have a plan to fix things before he complains. Otherwise, he is just "pissing in the wind" and complaining to get attention.

[darkeyes]

I am not trying to be extreme. I am just stating the options.

As for "beginning the fight for what people believe", then he needs to have a plan to fix things before he complains. Otherwise, he is just "pissing in the wind" and complaining to get attention.
We have had a good and from my point of view enjoyable series of exchanges on this point.. I don't intend to say any more. We have different views and that's life as they say.. but I end by making these points... not everyone is a planner but they have opinions which are valuable to any cause in which they believe.. whatever our political or any other kind of opinion.. but it would not be the first time that a post or article, pamphlet or book has been the catalyst to others taking up the cudgels in pursuit of an aim.. he..assuming u mean Voltie, may indeed have a plan, neither of us can know for certain that he does not.. but even if he does not, others may devise one inspired by what he says.. unlikely u may say, but while that may be true, neither of us can know that for certain either... some can write and inspire.. some can take up the cause and do.. thinkers and doers... both essential and some lucky buggers can do both.. but mostly not.. so don't dismiss as nothing what people argue because they have no plan... a plan may easily be devised by someone completely different.. he may need a plan.. but he doesn't necessarily have to be the one to think it up...

..and in general no I do not think u have been extreme.. but telling people to leave their homeland because they do not like x y or z is an extreme view.. most people who want things changed prefer to stay to see things change and many actively pursue change... so yes.. it is an extreme view however much u may protest otherwise.

[Hephaestion]

Ok. I'm getting confused. First you are talking about the money world lying to us being the cause of all the world's ills, the next sentence you are saying we shouldn't underestimate the cost of war. Which is it?

So what you are saying in the first part (I want to make sure I understand) is that all of the businesses, all of the accountants (including government accountants) have been lying to us about the health of their various industries? That's a pretty large conspiracy and, to be honest, inaccurate, at least as far as the USA goes. If people had examined the financial reports and government reports (a few did), the signs were there of what was about to happen. We just chose to ignore things and try to continue living in our own little fantasy world of "the world is sunshine and everything is fine". lol.

As for the cost of war, who's underestimating it? War is an expensive thing. No one is saying it is not.

As for kicking the unfortunate and ill out of the way, we have safety nets here already. Unemployment compensation, Aid to families and dependent children, medicaid, WIC, Social Security Disability, Medicare. There are also charities. There are plenty of safety nets here. And you might want to ask the people in Canada who come across the border in Niagara Falls for surgeries because they would have to wait years in Canada or they have been denied there, how they feel about the Canadian medical system.

In England, you may like the system, but many of the English I know that have moved to the USA do not feel so fondly about your National Health care after they experience health care over here.

"You choose to miss the point about the birth of the USA. It was the lack of social conscience about the American colonies that preciptated the schizm. As for the modern day result, when a nation chooses to see a substatial part of its population as expendable then one wonders whether that claimed representation is worth the paper it was written upon."

Pardon my French, but what the hell are you talking about?? I thought we both spoke English? The birth of the USA was caused by many factors, but the main one, as someone earlier said, was "taxation without representation".

And if the Tea Party is just a publicity stunt, how do you explain the election results in 2010 and the results that will slap Liberals in the face in November?
The Tea Party, while not an official political party, is molded after taking back our government from the fat cats. Kinda the same way we did in the late 1700's. Only this time, the battle is with votes and ballots, instead of guns and bullets.

Correct you are confused.

The key point is that economic ills in the west have not been caused by socialism as has been mooted.

They have been caused by the money boys playing silly buggers. Fact was that governments had to intervene to keep them going in Europe and USA. 'Too big to be allowed to fail' was the buzz phrase. Rescue has been at the tax payers expense. You are correct in saying that it could have been foretold, as many of us knew, but the inertia in 'finance world' proved too great. Economic ills are certainly aggravated by any costly wars that may be indulged. You are wrong about the British economy being as strong as that of the Germans. We are in as bad a situation as the Greeks or any other. It's just that our 'credit rating' is better i.e there is belief that we will be good for our debts or rather our children are expected to be.

Socialism eh? At one time it was 'Reds under the bed'.

Perhaps your safety nets have large holes. We hear accounts of unnecessary travel to the appropriate hospital to match the depth of wallet and treatment being compromised by the size of the insurance available. In a different arena, perhaps the accounts of the way some sectors of New Orleans were treated at the time of the floods were entire myths.

Funny that we have US citizens over here that marvel at the health care available.

The taxation levied on the Americas pre schizm was to pay for the war that had been fought on their continent against the French. The colonists were aggrieved that they were being asked to pay and were being seen as cash cows when they had little or no representation in the British Parliament. The British establishment merely thought in terms of finance not people.

The Tea Party didn't spontaneously appear out of thin air. It comprised people who had previously been around, so 'same old'. One wonders why they chose that name if not an emotive PR move.

Hope that's plain enough.

[tenni]

"And you might want to ask the people in Canada who come across the border in Niagara Falls for surgeries because they would have to wait years in Canada or they have been denied there, how they feel about the Canadian medical system."

Well, there may be some truth to what you write but it may vary depending upon the operation. I doubt that any surgeries are on a one year wait list and certainly not in Ontario. What you may be not understanding is that these cross border operations were covered by the state health care system. There are some types of procedures that are not covered though as they are considered experimental etc. There may be another procedure that is covered and some Canadians may decide to go over the border and pay for the operation or procedure not covered. Hip replacement operations sometimes have a longer wait period but no life threatening procedures are denied. I don't know the wait time for hip replacements and the length may vary from year to year.

What I have found is that it seems nearly impossible to find common ground on the issue of social democracies and the perceptions in some US people. We simply do not have the same belief systems.

[slipnslide]

"And you might want to ask the people in Canada who come across the border in Niagara Falls for surgeries because they would have to wait years in Canada or they have been denied there, how they feel about the Canadian medical system."

Well, there may be some truth to what you write but it may vary depending upon the operation. I doubt that any surgeries are on a one year wait list and certainly not in Ontario. What you may be not understanding is that these cross border operations were covered by the state health care system. There are some types of procedures that are not covered though as they are considered experimental etc. There may be another procedure that is covered and some Canadians may decide to go over the border and pay for the operation or procedure not covered. Hip replacement operations sometimes have a longer wait period but no life threatening procedures are denied. I don't know the wait time for hip replacements and the length may vary from year to year.

What I have found is that it seems nearly impossible to find common ground on the issue of social democracies and the perceptions in some US people. We simply do not have the same belief systems.

I just read an article the other day about the number of Americans coming up here for this weight reduction surgery that isn't offered in the US. It's a two-way street.

I happen to know someone who just had hip replacement surgery. When he made the decision he wanted it, the wait was under 3 months I believe. A 3-month wait for a surgery he elected to have at that time - he didn't complain.

I've never heard of anyone being denied surgery either. Remember when people in the US were led to believe that we have bureaucrats involved in our healthcare? How crazy was that? Your doctor decides what happens here - the first time a bureaucrat is even aware is when they get the bill to pay. I do recall a co-worker's wife getting ill on vacation in the US and they had to call the insurance company at every turn to get "permission" to perform procedures and tests. They were lucky that the doctor offered to take the phone and tell the insurance company why he was doing what he was doing.

I've also never heard of anyone having to wait for emergency / time-sensitive surgeries. Cancer is found and should be operated on ASAP? Then that's what happens.

Could help explain the CIA life expectancy rankings.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html

[tenni]

Well, Slippy..if we are going there..lol

There are lots of stories about US people coming down with a major illness such as cancer. After awhile, they are cut off their "insurance" or denied renewal. I thought that Obama was trying to close that loop hole. Yet, US people call him a Marxist? Things are not as simple as they may look on both sides.

[12voltman59]

This is going to be my last word on this thread and that is to answer "the one question" that someone asked of me---I had seen it on one run through but couldn't seem to find it on a second run through the responses--and the question was to the effect of "where is is better?'

I don't really give a hoot if there are better places than the US or not--or that other places also have their problems---what my problem is, is that America is not a perfect place--and I don't subscribe to it "being the best country on earth now or ever" for a number of reasons I am not going into here----on the other hand it is surely not the worst-----but what bugs me is that it is an overall pretty good place that a certain cohort here--who claim that they are some sort of majority, but they are not who are hell bent on doing their damndest---in spite of their oft expressed claims that only they and they alone love America so much and are the defenders of her greatness and all--but are actually out to diminish this country in so many ways--and as an American citizen--it is not only my right to bitch about such things--it is my duty to do whatever I can to get them to change their ways if at all possible.

If I am a rabble rouser, malcontent and such--well I guess I am in good company since the Founding Fathers surely spoke out against those they saw were doing things they found wrong headed, unjust, etc. and were surely called such by the English Crown and government.

I do the things that it is said that as an American citizen you are supposed to do when I see something I don't agree with being done in my name--I try to change that by voting for those who most align with my views, I give money to those candidates, I go work for them, I give money and time to "causes" that suit me---and I surely call, write, or have even paid visits to the offices of my elected officials at all levels from township trustee, to state reps and senators on up.

I may not be a perfect citizen--but I think I am a pretty well engaged and active one, surely more than most---if I have any regrets in this regard--is that I don't have enough time or money to work for all the things that I care for or the candidates I feel could do a good job if elected or have done a good job while in office and work against those that I think have done poorly in some way.

And yes--I bitch, piss and moan about or mention things on this and other web sites that get me variably angry, pissed, depressed, upset, cynical, happy, pleased or what have you and I am going to continue to do so.

[*pan*]

Socialism isn't about government controlling people but people working together for the good of all within a democratic system where government such as it exists is truly of the people and for the people and by the people.. government would be controlled by the people because it is the people who are the government.

i stand corrected on the reasons for the french involvement but they did help. and if socialism isn't about government control then why is it the government is gaining more and more control of the people. it's because socialism can't survive with the present constitutional freedoms garanteed to the individual. mark these words as the us goes socialist the constitution will be over written and eventually discarded because it stands in the way of facist agenda. giving more power to the government has always led to tyranny, read the history's of other countrys, the founding fathers knew this and is why there are so many restrictions on government to protect individual freedom. why were so many presidents in the past against socialism and the other doctrines, why is it now we want to give up what always worked and gave us freedom to go the way of others. many a country has been destroyed with good intentions. rome was a great empire and it fell because of change and so will the us.

[12voltman59]

I am sure that Nutme said something very intelligent, enlightening, complimentary, etc--but I will just have to not become so informed and enlightened--since I have found that most if not all of his comments really add nothing but poison to the discussion----someone did suggest that he is probably one of our medusa head trolls making a return appearance---I for one---have put him on my "iggy list" and might suggest to others to consider doing the same.

[BiCplAz]

Take a look at this about socialism. Very cleaver and soooo true. http://youtu.be/3h8O7V-WxWQ