Down Low

[æonpax]

The term originated in the African American community, and was originally used to describe "any kind of slick, secretive behavior, including infidelity in heterosexual relationships."

According to a study published in the Journal of Bisexuality: "The Down Low is a lifestyle predominately practiced by young, urban African American men who have sex with other men and women, yet do not identify as gay or bisexual. – Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Down-low_(sexual_slang)


I belong to a non-nationally affiliated LGBT group and we meet once a month. Out of 60 some members, if 20 show up it’s really something. That happened a year or so ago when we took up the topic of the “down low” culture.

Of particular concern was the slow but steady proliferation of HIV within the Lesbian community. This was on the heels of a report put out by the “Woman’s Institute” of the GMHC, entitled; “HIV Risk for Lesbians, Bisexuals & Other Women Who Have Sex With Women” - http://www.gmhc.org/files/editor/file/GMHC_lap_whitepaper_0609.pdf

While the report never mentioned it directly, our nonscientific findings concluded that the “down low” culture is not a black phenomenon anymore, not always male and that men who practice “down low” have spread HIV to bisexual females who in turn, have had sex with lesbians, thus infecting the lesbian community.

From my perspective, I’ve always seen a marked bias from my lesbian sisters, against bisexual females and occasionally is a source of ideological arguments. Nonetheless, their point is well taken that bisexual females whom have sex with bisexual males of the “down low” culture, places them a far greater risk of HIV than a lesbian, who does not have sex with any male.

Casual sex with a married person who is secretly “down low” and bisexual, carries a much greater risk and making it worse, is when he (or she) does not inform you of their sexual proclivities. It is a practice I stopped many years ago.

The key here is openness and trust and unfortunately, while in great demand, such values are hard to find…the exception of course, being groups like this who encourage pride and sensibility when dealing with sexual liaisons. Still, the “down low” male and his secretive practices should be a concern to all.

[LastGent]

Definitely need to end unsafe sex. My view is, if someone won't tell you how many folk he or she has sex with, if he or she don't use condoms/gloves/dental dams/whatnot and won't get tested for STDs, then they are rapists waiting to happen in my opinion-and there is still misunderstanding about how HIV is transmitted! I talked to a friend a few days ago and he says people only get HIV from anal sex, so I asked him if that is how it's transmitted to women and he said he wasn't sure. Asshole.

[keefer201]

The only time I've heard the expression used was as a southern colloquialism for getting honest before death. Down low.......:2cents:

[Realist]

I know a few people who are on the "down low".

I was on the down low, myself, when I was married to my 2nd wife. Even though that was before the 80's epidemics, I was gambling with my life and my wife's, too. I was so stupid...but lucky! Never got a "bug".

My doctor used to have an office in Miami.

He told me that many retirees are ending up with AIDS, because they think they can't get it at their ages. He's treated both men and women in their 80s for AIDS!

Some will say you can only get it through anal sex, or, if you don't swallow you won't get sexually transmitted diseases...plus many other misguided theories.

Teen and even pre-teen girls, who want to remain virgins, but are sexually active, will often have anal sex. Some girls have refused to have sex with boys, thinking they're totally safe...but some have gotten AIDS, regardless. As mentioned above, sex with only girls is not a sure and safe thing.

Doc said that he's diagnosed virgins with AIDS and they'd never had vaginal intercourse! (My theory: Since the anal passage is more tender than the vaginal canal, I'd think that it'd be easier to get AIDS anally)

Doc said that boys are even worse at having many partners. They often think they are invincible.

Those who disregard common sense...especially those who have multiple anonymous partners, are playing Russian roulette, as far as I'm concerned.

Of course, nothing is 100%.......your safety is never guaranteed!

[elian]

STDs know no gender, age, racial or class boundaries but I would point out the the "Centric" channel, which is the reincarnated "BET" does actively run an advertising campaign that advocates testing for STDs. The ads feature both men and women and I think it's pretty progressive and cool that they do it. I would love to see the same ads on like say, ABC - I'll let you know the day THAT happens...<whistling to self>

[æonpax]

All the guys I personally know (2) that go either way sexually without their mates (wives in this case) knowing, tell me if what they did became public, they would contemplate suicide. I found that to be sad but informative.

A man who is involved in being "down low", violates two of societies moral taboo's; a) infidelity and b) same gender sex. A third would be if that sex was promiscuous. The point here is that a same sex interest by a "heterosexual" married man sounds a lot like being bisexual. But the social stigma that is still practiced in public, abhors that kind of behavior.

Bisexually needs to get more public.

[Gearbox]

^ If we all outed ourselves, would that help society dump the idea's that same gender sex, infedelity and promiscurity are immoral?
Or would it just be easier to spot us if a scapegoat is needed?

Did your bi friends explain why they might kill themselves?

[elian]

Probably both gear, and you answered your own question. In general people predicate their social standing and social respect on the idea that they are "moral" people in society. But society says that a man showing too much affection with other men is immoral, if you stand up in front of the community and dedicate your life to your spouse publicly, and then cheat on them with another partner and the community finds out about it that potentially destroys your social standing.

Ancient Rome was a lot like this as well, very prim and proper up front, but people often engaged in a good ol' rodgerring 'round the back out of the view of the public eye.. I have to think Victorian Era was the same way - whole premise of Jekyll and Hyde maybe?

I encountered that on this site already, biased thinking about sex being safer with one gender than another .. that's why I won't play with anyone if they are in a committed relationship already and the other partner doesn't know about their "extra" activity.

I grew up in a divorced household, I don't want to be the cause of a break up, there ARE spouses who know and approve - and for the ones who don't know or don't approve there are plenty of horny men who will take my place and play anyway.. It may not be fair to the person who doesn't know about their orientation before they got married, but I also don't think it's fair to the partner not to know.

[tenni]

The double standards in society condemning same sex activity between men is much stronger than it is for same sex activity between women. The risks and stigma for men in marriages with hetero women is even greater beyond the risk of HIV infection. The real issue is spreading disease and the possible false assumption that a married man will be behave without using protection. I don't know about black men who are on the down low but the married white guys seem no more likely to not protect themselves than any other man. It is my experience that married men are not any more careless about safe sex than other men. In fact, many married bi men seem to be even more cautious than heteromen or gay men.

These lesbians who persecute bisexual women for having sex with men need to raise their concerns but won't. It is the stigma of same sex activity that lesbians should be fighting against. As far as lesbians supporting bisexual men to remove societal stigma against bisexual men well that will happen two weeks after hell freezes over. ;)

As far as people having sex outside of their marriage, I recall stats that 70 % of men and 45% of women will have an affair outside of their relationship at some point in their life. My percentage may be off but it is no small number for either men or women. It is a reality of today's society and condemning them seems to be the role of out of touch moralists.:bigrin:

[darkeyes]

These lesbians who persecute bisexual women for having sex with men need to raise their concerns but won't. It is the stigma of same sex activity that lesbians should be fighting against. As far as lesbians supporting bisexual men to remove societal stigma against bisexual men well that will happen two weeks after hell freezes over. ;)





I can just about grin and bear the first part of this paragraph.. cos there are lesbians who are as u say.. but the last part is a generalisation which goes too far... what am I hmmmm? And the lesbians I know who feel as I do? And those I have met who similarly feel the same way? :rolleyes:

[Gearbox]

@Elian- Yes that's prob the case. Women are not innocent of 'Down Low' activity either mind. It's not a black, male nor a sexuality thing. It's a monogamy thing.:rolleyes:

It's not fair to keep your partner in the dark, but some find themselves in a catch22 situation: Do they risk loosing their partner? Or do they suffer discontentment for sure?
The solution to some is to keep shtum and satisfy both parties. No it's not fair, but it's understandable.

[æonpax]

The double standards in society condemning same sex activity between men is much stronger than it is for same sex activity between women. The risks and stigma for men in marriages with hetero women is even greater beyond the risk of HIV infection. The real issue is spreading disease and the possible false assumption that a married man will be behave without using protection. I don't know about black men who are on the down low but the married white guys seem no more likely to not protect themselves than any other man. It is my experience that married men are not any more careless about safe sex than other men. In fact, many married bi men seem to be even more cautious than heteromen or gay men.

These lesbians who persecute bisexual women for having sex with men need to raise their concerns but won't. It is the stigma of same sex activity that lesbians should be fighting against. As far as lesbians supporting bisexual men to remove societal stigma against bisexual men well that will happen two weeks after hell freezes over. ;)

As far as people having sex outside of their marriage, I recall stats that 70 % of men and 45% of women will have an affair outside of their relationship at some point in their life. My percentage may be off but it is no small number for either men or women. It is a reality of today's society and condemning them seems to be the role of out of touch moralists.:bigrin:

Tenni,

I will say this;
I am unconcerned as to the so-called "moral aspects" of "down low" or any such proclivity. If it's sex between consenting people, it's up to their beliefs. As a hedonist, I'm beyond such things.


The bias some lesbians feel towards bi-sexual females, is a matter I understand and is not really an issue with me. It's something that just exists but also can be worked around in a mutual respect and loving relationship.



Black males (in the US) are still, by far, in the "at risk" group for being HIV carriers. Having said that, I date predominantly black males, if an opportunity presents itself, but, I exercise common sense and elevated caution.

[dafydd]

[INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][I]

The key here is openness and trust and unfortunately, while in great demand, such values are hard to find…the exception of course, being groups like this who encourage pride and sensibility when dealing with sexual liaisons. Still, the “down low” male and his secretive practices should be a concern to all.
[/SIZE][/FONT]

It's having sex without condoms that is the main risk factor in spreading HIV. Somebody's gender, race, or their 'down low' status is not a risk factor if they use condoms. In terms of 'down low' HIV males being a risk threat to lesbians, I don't follow. Your responsibility and care is towards the people you have sex with, not their future lovers, and the future lovers of their lovers. You should't be held accountable for the unsafe sex practices of anyone else but yourself.

Surely if there is a concern, its these bisexual women who are having sex with men without using condoms, and then lying to their female sexual partners about their sexual history. Lesbians also need to decide on using safe sex practices with the bisexual woman they are with.

In the end, just have safe sex.

If you don't want to, then be clear of the potential consequences beforehand and share the burden of responsibility with your partner.

In any case, it's not about trust. Even trustworthy people who genuinely believe they are negative can be positive and transmit the virus and not know it. The responsibility for your safety is with you, each and every time and the only thing that you can confidently rely on is an HIV test, a 3month wait, and another HIV test. (Even then you need to know your sexual partner isn't having unsafe sex anywhere else). Cultural/social identities on their own make no difference.

[biblkman]

Ok, if i were to contract hiv from a bi woman who git from a lesbian who got from a bi woman who got it from a straight man who got from a bi woman who got it from a bi man who got from a gay man who got it from a bi man who got from a straight woman who got from a straight man....do u see were i'm going with this, stop pointing fingers and look in the mirror, u cant rely on what someone tells u as far as who they have been with and how many and are they safe, safe sex is your resposability...

[æonpax]

It's having sex without condoms that is the main risk factor in spreading HIV. <snip>

1) Two words: "Common Sense."

2) It's enough of a problem where the federal CDC (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention) have issued guidelines about it - http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/aa/resources/qa/downlow.htm
`

[dafydd]

1) Two words: "Common Sense."

2) It's enough of a problem where the federal CDC (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention) have issued guidelines about it - http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/aa/resources/qa/downlow.htm
`

The 'powers that be' have before mistakenly classed risk, according to social type. In the early 80s there was guidance about a new virus that was mysteriously only contracted by gay men. They called it GRID (Gay Related Immune Deficiency).
Then a couple of Haitians and hemophiliacs who weren't gay got infected and the guidance was rewritten.
Turned out to be this thing called HIV and anyone could get it.
d

[PeterNZ]

It's having sex without condoms that is the main risk factor in spreading HIV. Somebody's gender, race, or their 'down low' status is not a risk factor if they use condoms. In terms of 'down low' HIV males being a risk threat to lesbians, I don't follow. Your responsibility and care is towards the people you have sex with, not their future lovers, and the future lovers of their lovers. You should't be held accountable for the unsafe sex practices of anyone else but yourself. Surely if there is a concern, its these bisexual women who are having sex with men without using condoms, and then lying to their female sexual partners about their sexual history. Lesbians also need to decide on using safe sex practices with the bisexual woman they are with. In the end, just have safe sex. If you don't want to, then be clear of the potential consequences beforehand and share the burden of responsibility with your partner. In any case, it's not about trust. Even trustworthy people who genuinely believe they are negative can be positive and transmit the virus and not know it. The responsibility for your safety is with you, each and every time and the only thing that you can confidently rely on is an HIV test, a 3month wait, and another HIV test. (Even then you need to know your sexual partner isn't having unsafe sex anywhere else). Cultural/social identities on their own make no difference. You are correct Daffy, someone engaging in unprotected sex spreads HIV and it doesn't matter if they are out of the closet and have been for awhile, if they're newly out, or if they're on the down low and living in a locked closet. Then again aeonpax loves to shit on us bisexual men, claim that we're somehow responsible for spreading HIV to others, and she won't change her opinion at all since she's a bigot and highly biphobic.

[The Bisexual Virgin]

Ok, if i were to contract hiv from a bi woman who git from a lesbian who got from a bi woman who got it from a straight man who got from a bi woman who got it from a bi man who got from a gay man who got it from a bi man who got from a straight woman who got from a straight man....do u see were i'm going with this, stop pointing fingers and look in the mirror, u cant rely on what someone tells u as far as who they have been with and how many and are they safe, safe sex is your resposability...

Wow that's a mouth full.

[BiBrandon]

The term originated in the African American community, and was originally used to describe "any kind of slick, secretive behavior, including infidelity in heterosexual relationships." According to a study published in the Journal of Bisexuality: "The Down Low is a lifestyle predominately practiced by young, urban African American men who have sex with other men and women, yet do not identify as gay or bisexual Casual sex with a married person who is secretly “down low” and bisexual, carries a much greater risk and making it worse, is when he (or she) does not inform you of their sexual proclivities. It is a practice I stopped many years ago. Being DL is not something that only black men and women do and the idea that it is is racist. In fact most of the DL men I have met who wanted me to fuck them were white! Just because a bisexual or gay man is DL or discreet that does not mean that he's going to have HIV or that whoever has sex with him will get HIV since you get HIV from having unprotected sex not from having sex with someone that's DL, discreet, or closeted.