Wall Street Protests & the media

[tenni]

Are you hearing about the protests and occupation of Wall Street?

This has been going on for about three weeks but is getting no "official" media coverage. The protests are against corporations. I'm not sure of the details though.

There is also a rumour that this may spread beyond Wall Street to other cities soon as people grow more concerned about Corporations and their own loss of income. Another rumour is that this will begin to impact state legislatures soon as Congressmen etc. grow more concerned about the protests getting wider. Time will tell...but not in US or Canadian media. Pictures are being posted on Facebook and so far that is not being shut down.

[void()]

Had not heard about this. I am not too involved on Facebook. Have an account there which is used once in a blue moon. Can you offer a link or so?

Been watching for U.S. Dollar to lose world reserve currency status. This allegedly started happening back in the late 1990's to early 2000's. It has not taken effect wholly on a global level yet, as far as I am aware. If it does, the 1930's Depression will seem like Utopia from what I gather.

Want to start up a seed swap network, veggie surplus network? I see corn prices skyrocketing. Maybe grow it as a cash crop, if we can keep the deer out. Deer around here are over populated, walk around in town like the new overlord pets or something. Pelts make good blankets, clothes, tipi covers. Can use sinew for fishing nets or line. Bone makes good needles.

Sorry. I diverged there into poor hillbilly survival mode. Oh well, nothing wrong being who you are I guess. "Me, ... I survive." I am literally a character from the Alabama song, "the market crashed but we were too poor to tell." We got health, family, can live with and off the land. What else we need? Knowledge?
We got free Internet learnin' and PBS on satellite. Barring that we got NPR on battery operated radios and public library cards if need be.

We aren't the sort to ask help but appreciate that we get. We have food stamps bu know they can be gone any time. I dislike having to use them, call it pride. Really do need to start gardening again. Should probably find a good walk behind tiller.

[Diva667]

OF course it hasn't made the news, no one would pay attention to it. They haven't (really) done anything other than camp out in the middle of wall street.

Here's an article on it though -
http://www.npr.org/2011/09/27/140854961/wall-street-protest-continues-this-week

Kinda reminds me of this - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooverville

Especially with unemployment at the highest it's been since the great depression.

[12voltman59]

Its no surprise that this little protest hasn't been covered all that much----back earlier in the year when all the school teachers, firefighters, cops, public workers and the rest were protesting the changes brought to Wisconsin by their new governor and "tea party" type legislators--with tens of thousands of them basically taking over the state capital building---that only got the most cursory coverage by the "lamestream media"--with FAUX, I mean FOX news giving it lots of coverage---making out the protestors to be hired hands by the unions and such----when they were simply average folks tired of getting stepped on by the "big money interests"

Back in the late 90s and early 2000s when they had things meetings of the IMF, G7/8 nations, and the like--with major protests in cities here in the US such as Seattle and Miami--with the cops basically setting upon not only those few "anarchist" thugs who did do stupid things like break into stores, bash cars and set fires--but also upon journalists covering the events, those marching legally and peacefully and even some not even involved in the protests, but just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time when the cops went ballistic and starting clubbing, pepper spraying and tasing anyone and everyone within reach.

That hardly made the major news at that time--save some erroneous reports that all of the protestors had been doing things like throwing Molotov cocktails at police and into businesses.

It is pretty much the case in America now---if you are a good little "consumer" who goes out and shops, watches your sports events or shows like "American Idol," "Survivor," or "American Idol"--you are a good American and all---but as soon as you step out and protest the things that "our masters" do that we don't like then we are "BAD, BAD, BAD!!!"

This article talks about the way that FOX News portrayed the protests in Wisconsin by teachers, firefighters, cops and other public workers to the changes put into place earlier this year by the new governor and "tea party" type legislators: http://mediamatters.org/research/201102180015 but supported protests done by the tea party types--so much for their being unbiased, "fair and balanced"!!!

It is even the other supposedly "liberal" media sources that ignore such things these days--not just FOX and also portray those who do protest as malcontents, anarchists or whatever.

It tends to be the case that the only media sources covering in any detail and to any degree such protests are those truly independent and admittedly "liberal/progressive" media outlets such as Pacifica Radio and Democracy Now! but their reach to the "masses" is rather small and is really not much more than a very narrow "niche" market.

[jamieknyc]

This demonstration is in Zuccotti Park outside my office, so I see them every day (they are not on Wall Street, don't believe the claims made on the Internet). There are about 50 to 100 people hanging out there. Almost all of them are college kids. They did make a lot of protest signs, some of which are actually quite creative. Each day around lunch time and during the evening rush hour they bring out a few drummers to make a noisy protest; the rest of the day is generally pretty quiet. The NYPD just watch, posted around the perimeter of the square. Most of it is pretty orderly, but there are always a few hotheads who try to provoke the cops.

Despite the claims they make on the Internet, there is no media blackout. Local New York press and TV have been reporting on it, and on a national level, a college-kid demonstration isn't news, especially with the UN General Assembly going on the same week.

[void()]

Thank you 12volt for the NPR link. When I do look at news seriously, it comes down to NPR, PBS or Democracy Now. Link TV provides other good news media sources as well but most tend on being more of a global view. And I honestly do not heed much actual news media. This is from seeing how much of a propaganda circus news media has become.

What I can infer from the camping on Wall Street recalls The Haymarket Affair.


From (http://www.marxists.org/subject/women/authors/jones/ch02.htm) 1880 on, I became wholly engrossed in the labor movement. In all the great industrial centers the working class was in rebellion. The enormous immigration from Europe crowded the slums, forced down wages and threatened to destroy the standard of living fought for by American working men. Throughout the country there was business depression and much unemployment. In the cities there was hunger and rags and despair. Foreign agitators who had suffered under European despots preached various schemes of economic salvation to the workers. The workers asked only for bread and a shortening of the long hours of toil. The agitators gave them visions. The police gave them clubs.

It appears not much has change (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama_presidential_campaign,_2008#Slogan)d. If I would have voted, he would have been my ballot. Obvious now, why I abstain. I'm no good pickin' horses. Besides, soldiers don't vote.

[jamieknyc]

Thank you 12volt for the NPR link. When I do look at news seriously, it comes down to NPR, PBS or Democracy Now. Link TV provides other good news media sources as well but most tend on being more of a global view. And I honestly do not heed much actual news media. This is from seeing how much of a propaganda circus news media has become.

What I can infer from the camping on Wall Street recalls The Haymarket Affair.



It appears not much has change (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama_presidential_campaign,_2008#Slogan)d. If I would have voted, he would have been my ballot. Obvious now, why I abstain. I'm no good pickin' horses. Besides, soldiers don't vote.

On the contrary, the protestors are almost entirely white and middle class, mostly college kids. People in lower Manhattan who actually are workers (building employees, counter workers in food establishments, construction workers, secretaries and so on) see the protestors as a bunch of entitled rich kids, and are not shy about telling it to the protestors' faces.

After all, we all know that in two or three years, the protestors are all going to be applying for jobs at Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan Chase.

[darkeyes]

After all, we all know that in two or three years, the protestors are all going to be applying for jobs at Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan Chase.

That may be Jamie.. but for now that doesn't make what they are doing wrong or heart felt and who knows.. important.. if I lived in New York I'd be there with them and would be arguing with those ordinary workers that they should be on the protest too...

[jamieknyc]

That may be Jamie.. but for now that doesn't make what they are doing wrong or heart felt and who knows.. important.. if I lived in New York I'd be there with them and would be arguing with those ordinary workers that they should be on the protest too...

No doubt you would, and those workers would tell you "get a job" like the other protestors.

Are you volunteering to join the topless women in the protest?

[darkeyes]

No doubt you would, and those workers would tell you "get a job" like the other protestors.

Are you volunteering to join the topless women in the protest?

They can say what they like.. have a job as it happens but whether or not I did wouldnt stop the daft buggers catchin sharp end of me tongue.. protest isnt usually looked on wiv such disdain here.. even nob protests if the principle is right.. workin peeps look on nob protests a bit strangely but as with students.. also considered middle class and nobby lil prats by most, they will throw their weight behind them.. as they did last year and will again in future.. tf I live 'ere..:bigrin:

..an if the cause was right.. and it would do any good.. yep.. would flash the tidgies to the world.. they may need 2 screw up ther eyes a bit 2 c 'em but hav nev been too bothered bout gettin 'em out wen the occasion arises.. :tong:

[tenni]

Thanks for your info Jamie & Diva

The images on the internet are not of college age kids. They may be (former?) middle class people but most seem to be in their 40's? They were holding simple cardboard signs. Are other people really telling these protestors to get a job? I thought some were there because they can not get a job or a full time job that pays enough for them to live on? I thought that their protest had something to do with the structure of the corporations?

Diva
Now, that your article mentions it, I can recall seeing a protestor talking about the fact that the media could not believe that there was no leader or spokesperson for these protestors? I recall now, someone saying that on a news report that I seem to have ignored. I'm not sure why there is no leader spokesperson but it almost seemed like a philosophical position on the protestors part?

[jamieknyc]

Fran you do not get it- to someone who works serving pizza and coffee, or mopping the floors in an office building, or working on the construction sites in the area, you are a pampered, privileged college kid, and they don't feel sympathy for protestors carry signs complaining that college didn't prepare them for a job and demanding that strudent loans be bailed out. You would have to be there and talk to such people to grasp the degree of visceral anger they have at seeing privileged white middle-class kids out protesting while they are doing backbreaking labor.

Tenni, walking through Zuccotti Park (which is in front of my office) I assure you that ninety per cent of the protestors were under age 25, and I was the oldest person in the crowd, save maybe one or two. In fact, my son went there to talk to them because at his age, they can relate.

Just so everyone is clear, where they are camped out is not on Wall Street.

[void()]

On the contrary, the protestors are almost entirely white and middle class, mostly college kids. People in lower Manhattan who actually are workers (building employees, counter workers in food establishments, construction workers, secretaries and so on) see the protestors as a bunch of entitled rich kids, and are not shy about telling it to the protestors' faces.

After all, we all know that in two or three years, the protestors are all going to be applying for jobs at Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan Chase.

There is still a middle class?

Thinking about going to college myself, soon. I am looking at 40 in April. I admit being a slow learner. I learn the hard way. See now I can possibly do better doing system administration work than blue collar work.

Do not get me wrong. There is nothing wrong in blue collar work. But ask yourself Johnny Blue, are you really getting anywhere, or did you just settle for some dream The Man spun for ya?

Try making wife, kids, home of your own on blue collar. It's not there now. The bosses can pay you less or hire immigrants. They prefer immigrants, really. Let them go after 90 days, get a fresh batch and avoid taxes, insurance.

So, you would probably call me a 'white and middle class, entitled kid'? I am white. But I have lived in poverty all this life. We thought ourselves middle class. Until someone made a slip on PBS, revealed the standards. Been doing blue collar stuff most of this life.

Look at everything as it is now and see the song remaining the same. Unless I do something. I can go to school, get the fancy toilet tissue for a wall hanging, get a job that actually pays. At least I can for now, while the government is still afloat. Kind of looking shaky.

[darkeyes]

Fran you do not get it- to someone who works serving pizza and coffee, or mopping the floors in an office building, or working on the construction sites in the area, you are a pampered, privileged college kid, and they don't feel sympathy for protestors carry signs complaining that college didn't prepare them for a job and demanding that strudent loans be bailed out. You would have to be there and talk to such people to grasp the degree of visceral anger they have at seeing privileged white middle-class kids out protesting while they are doing backbreaking labor.

Tenni, walking through Zuccotti Park (which is in front of my office) I assure you that ninety per cent of the protestors were under age 25, and I was the oldest person in the crowd, save maybe one or two. In fact, my son went there to talk to them because at his age, they can relate.

Just so everyone is clear, where they are camped out is not on Wall Street.

Don't presume to tell me what I do and dont get Jamie.. cant say bout ordinary working people in your country.. but can say this bout them 'ere.. when the chips are down.. they do not generally suffer from the inverted snobbery which can blight a just cause..

[void()]

There is still a middle class?

Thinking about going to college myself, soon. I am looking at 40 in April. I admit being a slow learner. I learn the hard way. See now I can possibly do better doing system administration work than blue collar work.

Do not get me wrong. There is nothing wrong in blue collar work. But ask yourself Johnny Blue, are you really getting anywhere, or did you just settle for some dream The Man spun for ya?

Try making wife, kids, home of your own on blue collar. It's not there now. The bosses can pay you less or hire immigrants. They prefer immigrants, really. Let them go after 90 days, get a fresh batch and avoid taxes, insurance.

So, you would probably call me a 'white and middle class, entitled kid'? I am white. But I have lived in poverty all this life. We thought ourselves middle class. Until someone made a slip on PBS, revealed the standards. Been doing blue collar stuff most of this life.

Look at everything as it is now and see the song remaining the same. Unless I do something. I can go to school, get the fancy toilet tissue for a wall hanging, get a job that actually pays. At least I can for now, while the government is still afloat. Kind of looking shaky.

In all fairness I want to point out a few things regarding poverty in the U.S.

Being in the U.S and poor is not quite like being in other countries and being poor. Those countries look at the U.S. poor, justifiably so, as being far better off than they could ever dream.

Yesterday my wife reported back to the Human Resources department. They are the agency which handles issues of welfare, namely in our case, food stamps. My wife has recently found herself employed. This employment, albeit merely at minimum wage, causes us to be unqualified for food stamps.

She complained of the guy on the other end of the phone conversation. "Idiot." He was expecting her to scream, bawl and carry on rashly over loosing food stamps. Instead, "That's fine. I at least needed to report it as required." She knew it would disqualify us, we knew.

We were getting around $300 a month to help buy food. Now, we don't get it because it goes to help others whom are in more need. That's at least how it is supposed to function. We pay taxes in to help offset our welfare, get food stamps when not employed, help others when employed. But the system is corrupt.

There are many cases where immigrants drive to minimum wage jobs in new expensive cars. They pay no taxes as they aren't citizens. They get food stamps, free medical care, free school funds. But they can afford all sorts new and expensive stuff. They can take unscheduled weeks off at a time, not call off and still have jobs. I have seen it.

No, I am not prejudice. But the system is corrupt when it allows this. And it does not stop with immigrants. Affirmative action is a big problem as well. Some African Americans do much the same as the leeching immigrants. Even some of their own call these sorts niggers in derogatory tones. Have to agree with that, trash is trash. Of course, there are also white niggers whom follow the same course as the leeches. So it is honestly not prejudice, unless you say it is prejudice against leeches.

Me and mine are not leeches. Yes we may have it a little better than elsewhere. But there are large gaps between have and have not, even in the U.S.. We appreciate having help when we ask. But it is harder for those offering help when leeches exist, to help those whom do try helping themselves.

I served in the military. Would have died for our country if needed. Look around now and probably still would. But understand if given my choice I would not die for leeches. Nor would I expect another to die in my place. Our country has become a cesspool because of corruption. You can not swim to live for all the dung. The dung includes all this rhetoric. The rhetoric is probably the more dung filled.


Sarcasm or irony here a bit. "Welcome to 1984, where it hurts to think. But I still think. Sorry, I'm not a robot or capital. I'm human."

[tenni]

I think that we may be experiencing and have for a few years a re defining of what constitutes the middle class. I just checked wiki as a good place to start. It references a difference between middle class in North America and Britain.

In Britain, it speaks of the middle class as those people who typically have had a good education, own a family house, and hold a managerial or professional post. It references upper middle class defined by occupation as being upper management. It references the middle class as being between the working class and upper class.

In North America, nearly everyone at one time aspired or believed that they were middle class. If they were not middle class they saw the potential to become middle class. The poor existed but so many did not identify as that. Factory workers (in particular the auto industry) could earn a good income sufficient to own their own house/property, have several cars, adult toys such as boats and even a cottage. Yet, they may not have had a university education or held a management position. The term working class was used less frequently. Today, we hear more of the "working poor" and what that constitutes has changed. People who have had managerial jobs and university education are finding themselves more working poor without full time employment or on contract jobs without benefits.

I suspect that the term middle class is either changing or as some who wish to maintain the definition by property ownership and professional status is being shaken. If people can not get a full time job with university degrees or buy a home without losing it due to banking nonsense with mortgage shysters around every corner, is there still a middle class?

I think that it will be re defined in North America. The majority of workers saw themselves as middle class and now are either depressed at their status or maybe growing angry. As Void suggests, we may only have the poor and the upper class soon in North America.

[tenni]

"They pay no taxes as they aren't citizens."

That's interesting Void. As an aside, people in the US should know what their government is doing to Canadians who may have been born in the US but are now Canadian citizens and US citizens. Your IRS is harassing Canadians to pay their tax to the US even though they are earning it in Canada and live in Canada as a Canadian dual citizen. Threats of fines and even jail time are being made public in the past few weeks. One man who has worked in Canada for forty years as a Canadian Citizen received a letter from the US IRS stating that he would be given a $10 000 fine for not filing a tax return to the US. Its a strange world. I guess that the US born Canadian citizens' option is to give up their US citizenship if they ever want to go back to the US for a visit without threat of being arrested for tax evasion on money earned in Canada by Canadian citizens. It sounda a little messy or strange. I may have it wrong though.

[darkeyes]

I think that we may be experiencing and have for a few years a re defining of what constitutes the middle class. I just checked wiki as a good place to start. It references a difference between middle class in North America and Britain.

In Britain, it speaks of the middle class as those people who typically have had a good education, own a family house, and hold a managerial or professional post. It references upper middle class defined by occupation as being upper management. It references the middle class as being between the working class and upper class.

In North America, nearly everyone at one time aspired or believed that they were middle class. If they were not middle class they saw the potential to become middle class. The poor existed but so many did not identify as that. Factory workers (in particular the auto industry) could earn a good income sufficient to own their own house/property, have several cars, adult toys such as boats and even a cottage. Yet, they may not have had a university education or held a management position. The term working class was used less frequently. Today, we hear more of the "working poor" and what that constitutes has changed. People who have had managerial jobs and university education are finding themselves more working poor without full time employment or on contract jobs without benefits.

I suspect that the term middle class is either changing or as some who wish to maintain the definition by property ownership and professional status is being shaken. If people can not get a full time job with university degrees or buy a home without losing it due to banking nonsense with mortgage shysters around every corner, is there still a middle class?

I think that it will be re defined in North America. The majority of workers saw themselves as middle class and now are either depressed at their status or maybe growing angry. As Void suggests, we may only have the poor and the upper class soon in North America.

Athur Scargill, one time mineworkers leader, left wing bogeyman and the man who led the British miners to disaster back in the 1980's has a simple definition of working class. He may have been have walked into Thatcher's trap and seen his union and industry crushed underfoot, but he has an interesting definition of class. There is no middle class. If you are employed by another you are working class, and if you employ people and own industry you are upper class. Small business he is unclear about but really he means those people who own the wealth of the nation and are the power brokers of our society are the upper crust and those governments toady to.

The definition of middle class is incredibly mixed up. A white collar civil servant is considered middle class yet most civil servants of that type earn lower than the average wage and have the same problems as any other sector of our society.. industrial civil servants are considered working class yet some earn more than many white collar civil servants. Many of those white collar civil servants are messengers and the like earning little more than minumum wage. I was raised in a family of people who were from mining stock and by no stretch of the imagination does my father or mother consider themselves or their children middle class even although we are all professional people earning good salaries and living prosperous lives. We all had to work for our prosperity and were given nothing on a plate. We have all endured hard times and been skint wondering where the next penny was coming from. Even me, the most spoiled and fortunate of my siblings.

I am considered middle class by society and even some of my friends but I am anything but just like my parents and grandparents. That I am accorded a class which I do not accept for me is not an inverted snobbery but a realisation and acceptance that because I have professional qualifications and studied to get where I am does not make me better than anyone else. I have had good fortune, but I still have to work and still have to pay bills. My personal history does not make me something I am not. It does not deprive me of my working class heritage. I work for an employer and as Arthur Scargill stated, if he got nothing else right and he did more than he is given credit for, his observation of what constitutes working class is spot on.

And the son of a miner, like my father, who studied and has raised himself and his family out of poverty, and provided for them a good prosperous lifestyle has not graduated out of the class to which he was born? He is employed by large firm, but employed well and is a very successful, well paid professional. People such as my father should never forget where they come from and my father never has.. and people such as me should never forget that but for his efforts and those of my mother, my brother and sister and I would have very different and probably much less fortunate lives.. and we never have forgotten that.. we have grasped opportunities, all of us which were available, but by taking those opportunities we remain as we always were and our families always were... very working class.

My family and I are as much working class as those pizza delivery boys of which Jamie speaks or those manual labourers. We are subject to the whims of employers and our working lives are not in our full control. We cannot do as we please and can be sacked as can any other person who is employed. We have to ask permission of our employers and their managers when to take holidays, or to change how things are done, how to deal with our colleagues and have to work as their guidelines tell us. We are at their whim, their beck and call... we can be victimised by our own managers or the employer.. our careers strangled and ended by personal emnity by employer and manager alike.. as we rise through the ranks, professional people may have more authority, and power over the lives of others, but most remain employees.. subject to the demands of the job and the whims of their employer. it doesn't matter one jot whether person is the pizza delivery boy a clerk or bus driver, or the Head of the Civil Service, the Chief Executive of a local authority or the top man in a multi national.. if they are employed... they are whether they like it or not, working class... we all have different degrees of prosperity, success and authority but that does not change what we are...

I can go on about others who are within that class.. most of the self employed.. the unemployed (not an underclass as people seem to claim these days in yet another attempt at dividing peoples loyalty), but for now just discussing those who are employees of others is sufficient for my purposes... class war remains alive in my country, and probably in the USA, not because of people like me or left wing agitators, but because it is in the interests of those with the wealth and power within our societies to keep it alive.. ruling class, upper middle, middle, working, underclass.. they attach us a label and expect us to show loyalty to it... the labels exist to divide us by enabling those of the upper tiers to be bought off and the lower used as whipping boys.

[darkeyes]

"They pay no taxes as they aren't citizens."

That's interesting Void. As an aside, people in the US should know what their government is doing to Canadians who may have been born in the US but are now Canadian citizens and US citizens. Your IRS is harassing Canadians to pay their tax to the US even though they are earning it in Canada and live in Canada as a Canadian dual citizen. Threats of fines and even jail time are being made public in the past few weeks. One man who has worked in Canada for forty years as a Canadian Citizen received a letter from the US IRS stating that he would be given a $10 000 fine for not filing a tax return to the US. Its a strange world. I guess that the US born Canadian citizens' option is to give up their US citizenship if they ever want to go back to the US for a visit without threat of being arrested for tax evasion on money earned in Canada by Canadian citizens. It sounda a little messy or strange. I may have it wrong though.

I'm not sure Tenni but isn't it a fact that the United States does not accept that American citizens can surrender their citizenship even upon taking out that of another country?

British citizens who are expats can remain in the country for so many days a year and pay no taxation (90 I think) but no doubt Jamie or some American will be able to enlighten you about their tax obligations as expats. I have several American friends here who have never heard from the IRS since they settled in this country so what the rules are God knows.. but if they expect a contribution for nothing they do have a bloody cheek.

[Diva667]

Saw this in the Guardian today


"This is a new way to protest. Many of us have done our fair share of street protesting. But they drag us into the streets, and they mace us. Now we have brought our protests into the online social media space. We do it all at once – the street protesting along with our distributed denial of service [DDoS] attacks. We are a bit of an online flash mob."



http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/sep/27/occupy-wall-street-anonymous?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038

[12voltman59]

"They pay no taxes as they aren't citizens."

That's interesting Void. As an aside, people in the US should know what their government is doing to Canadians who may have been born in the US but are now Canadian citizens and US citizens. Your IRS is harassing Canadians to pay their tax to the US even though they are earning it in Canada and live in Canada as a Canadian dual citizen. Threats of fines and even jail time are being made public in the past few weeks. One man who has worked in Canada for forty years as a Canadian Citizen received a letter from the US IRS stating that he would be given a $10 000 fine for not filing a tax return to the US. Its a strange world. I guess that the US born Canadian citizens' option is to give up their US citizenship if they ever want to go back to the US for a visit without threat of being arrested for tax evasion on money earned in Canada by Canadian citizens. It sounda a little messy or strange. I may have it wrong though.

It took a bit to find the information--but I found some websites that had info regarding the taxation of US citizens even when they are aboard--while I sure am no expert on this subject and it does seem pretty complicated--the bottom line is that for at least the past 150 years-the US government's view about taxing US citizens, is that no matter where they are in the world-the US is entitled to getting its share of a person's income--so the only way to get out of future US tax liability is to Expatriate oneself--that doesn't mean that a person is not on the hook for past taxes owed--just that from the point of expatriation onward they shouldn't have to pay US taxes any longer.

This one site seems to have a pretty good bit of information on the subject of expatriation specifically and to some degree info on related tax issues: http://www.renunciationguide.com/

I seem to dimly recall in passing--- some years back one US congressman had proposed legislation that would prohibit expatriation on the grounds that people only do it to avoid paying US taxes and the story had him saying that anyone who would renounce their US citizen was a "tax cheat."

That apparently never went anywhere--- but the Congress made it pretty damn easy for corporations to transfer their corporate charters to "offshore" locations so they can avoid paying most US taxes and we have some politicos praising that as "a wise business decision" since our tax rates are supposedly so onerous on the poor old corporations!!

If you are an individual though---once the US gets its hooks in ya for taxes---they don't wanna let go!!!!

[void()]

Saw this in the Guardian today

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/sep/27/occupy-wall-street-anonymous?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038

Go Anonymous! :)

tenni and volt,

That frankly bites ear wax flavored toe jam, the U.S. continuing to assail one with taxes after one leaves. I am all for paying a fair share if you do live here. And I would prefer immigrants paying that fair share.

I'm not referring to those 'just visiting'. If you set up house and start working here, then you ought to contribute, at least seems only fair. Once you leave and set up house elsewhere, you contribute there. But you should not be expected to continue contribution here as well.

This seems to infer double jeopardy and possibly cruel and unusual punishment. But INAL or tax agent, just a dumb country boy.

[softfruit]

Saw this in the Guardian today
"We are a bit of an online flash mob."

And quite a bit of a bunch of bullies.

We have similar far-right thugs over here in ukuncut/bnp, spinning the line that it's all the fault of the bankers. Last time around they popped the word "Jewish" in front of the word "bankers", but the message is otherwise unchanged from the 1930s.

[tenni]

Today's Democracy Now reports on last nights event in Liberty Square of Wall Street. Cornell West speaks about
people of all colours,

all cultures,

all sexual orientation

growing tired with Corporate against everyday people who are now taking a stand against the greed of Wall Street Oligart Complex and Corporate Media Multi plex who squeeze the democratic juices out of this country and other places around the world. This is the US response to the Arab Spring...he said.

and more leftist statements....:eek:

ok...they sound like robots chanting but get the idea. ;)

http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2011/9/29/cornel_west_on_occupy_wall_street_its_the_makings_ of_a_us_autumn_responding_to_the_arab_spring

[cuttin2dachase]

Leave partisan politics out of the equation. On one side in our country there are liberal notsees, and on the other side, conservative notsees. Neither of them can 'see' past their own agenda of greed and lust for power! They are actually all Nazis, but it would be politically incorrect to say that, wouldn't it? They are ALL very wealthy and powerful and they either control the politicians or they are elected politicians (or both). The goal of both groups is to eradicate the middle class and suppress all dissent to both their agendas in our country, so that it will be only them and US, the rich and POOR, the powerful and the POWERLESS, just as in feudal times. The lower classes will continue to accept the libnots' handouts in exchange for votes...the upper classes will continue to wag the dog for their liberal or conservative benefit and vote accordingly...what will the middle class do? We can tip the balance because we outnumber the lib/con nazi bastards, but what are we to do? That is the question......and I don't see any answers at the moment...anybody got any suggestions?

[tenni]

700 airline pilots protested yesterday on /near Occupy Wall Street.

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.246533542059875.56631.181577995222097

[void()]

Been following this a bit in a Metafilter (http://www.metafilter.com/) post and comments. Someone linked to Reedit post. The post was from a former Marine. He and several other former service people were heading to Occupy, to protect the protesters, in full dress uniforms. Also, police wound up kettling protesters to cross the Brooklyn Bridge this evening. Protesters, former service people are all adamant in remaining non-violent save for possibility of self-defense either personal, or on behalf of one another, in peril of immediate bodily harm. In other terminology, defensive support. This is rooted partly in Akido and works extremely well.

tenni,

Having no leader is part of a highly advanced para-military thought process and strategy. If there are no leaders, no easy targets exist. If no leaders then different groups can merge, work individually, swarm. It works out logistically as 'Mass Confusion', which does confound an opponent. There is no leader, the group, individuals work autonomously. What is happening though is a basic mandate agreed on by all protesters, non-violence, dignity, honor.

Imagine the uproar of video with police assaulting non-violent acting former service members in full dress would\will cause. Imagine the same involving non-violent civilians. The police will lose it all by any sort of aggressive physical action toward the protesters.

In the kettling today, reports defined the police as being polite but firm. They did not engage physically save in making very public arrests. These were done by the numbers as is said. Although, likely most charges will be dropped and detainees released. The strategy is to arrest en masse, breaking up the 'swarm' and hopefully causing it to consider dispersing. No leaders means the cops just grab anyone catching their eye. It isn't anything personal. They're just doing a job.

[darkeyes]

Leave partisan politics out of the equation. On one side in our country there are liberal notsees, and on the other side, conservative notsees. Neither of them can 'see' past their own agenda of greed and lust for power! They are actually all Nazis, but it would be politically incorrect to say that, wouldn't it? They are ALL very wealthy and powerful and they either control the politicians or they are elected politicians (or both). The goal of both groups is to eradicate the middle class and suppress all dissent to both their agendas in our country, so that it will be only them and US, the rich and POOR, the powerful and the POWERLESS, just as in feudal times. The lower classes will continue to accept the libnots' handouts in exchange for votes...the upper classes will continue to wag the dog for their liberal or conservative benefit and vote accordingly...what will the middle class do? We can tip the balance because we outnumber the lib/con nazi bastards, but what are we to do? That is the question......and I don't see any answers at the moment...anybody got any suggestions?

I may disagree with your labels but not the sentiment and analysis very much... whoever is in power, left or right, liberal or conservative or any other poltical division, it is not they who hold all the reigns of power.. both are in thrall to essentially the same group of wealthy and powerful people.. people who pull the strings and to whom whichever group of rich and wealthy ne'er do wells is indebted and indented for their term of office.. each group can tinker with what needs to be done to suit their agenda but they are unable and unwilling to so radically change the way things that things more or less stay the same... most of us remain in effect powerless in the face of the powerful and wealthy elite who really run things.

Witness the current crisis.. who is paying for the mess which bankers and politicians the world over have landed us? The lower orders.. the vast bulk of the population.. everything that is being done is to retain the system and to retain the elite's hold on power and wealth.. twas ere thus.. they will throw us a bone now and then to keep us happy and every time we fall for it...

..what is to be done? A century and more ago ago socialist, social democratic and liberal oppositions grew and with high ideals tried to change the way things were.. to some extent they succeeded for the world is a far more compassionate and prosperous place than it was then.. poverty levels are nothing like as bad and nothing like as severe in their effect. Working conditions are so much better and many things have improved.. but the fact is little has really changed in how ordinary people have a say in how things evolve and how society works... we mave have the vote but a vote every few years does not give us real power nor does it give us sufficient control over the legislature or executive to truly call us democracies.. they are our servants not we theirs is this not so???

A century and more ago the progressive parties which grew and to some degree prospered were vilified by state and press alike.. then as now the press was the tool of the ruling class.. and with the franchise far less available than it is now it did not have to pander the the disenfranchised majority. And neither did government...

Now we have a far more sophisticated and varied media which in many was has been liberating.. but when the chips are down, and people try to progress against the power brokers, coverage is such that is aimed and intended to discredit those who wish change and it closes ranks to defend the state against the "destroyers". Coverage of such events differs when we compare how events abroad are covered to those at home... the political reasoning alters to suit the purpose of state and elite...

An unforeseen circumstance which no one dreamed of when arguing for the universal franchise, is that now that we have it in theory, and a more sophisticated press and media, it has become more difficult to bring real change through the ballot box, or to introduce new radical politics to society, and and pity help anyone who wishes to create a new party whose aim is to introduce real change and real democracy.. such is the way they are presented by the media, from the liberal to the conservative, that their project is either still born or a very sickly child indeed.. the vilification which is heaped on those who wish real change is such that even although we desire it, our fears of what such change will bring makes most fall into line with the wishes of the elite who wish them little good. The elite has binkered down and become more ruthless and infinitely more clever... universal franchise allied to the more sophisticated way our media now is, has served to foster even more division among people, and a deprivation of real power away from them to both state and the unelected elite who run that state de facto through those we elect into office..

So the old politics of our countries continue.. the elite still holds the power and even garners more into its arms.. for instance 30 years ago the wealthy in the United States held 80% of American riches... that remains the case but instead of that 80% being shared among 20% of the population it is now shared among just 10... therefore the remaining small piece of cake has to go round a much larger percentage of the population... and consequently..that wealthy elite, smaller, much more incredibly wealthy and therefore even more powerful, has far greater resources available to ensure their power is retained and extended and that governments and legislatures remain in thrall to them... things are no different in my country or anywhere else...

..what is to be done? Nothing less than a root and branch overhaul of the system.. even dumping it into the ocean.. but anyone who suggests such a thing or campaigns for it? Look to your laurels, because changing anything fundamentally, even simply changing the system radically is not easy within the systems we have in the west... and God help anyone who suggests giving the people a real say in the running of their country.. who wants a truly democratic society?

The resilience of the present system and those who pull its strings is incredible.. the world's economy is down the pan and likely to end up in the sea... and still because of who holds the real power and how they wield that power, we cannot see past how things are done now politically, socially or economically.. we poor minions are sucked into our historical political loyalties because that is how the powers that be like it, or we float and chop and change our vote to achieve change which is never going to come or to retain what we believe is a society which is as it should be.....

...and because of that our world is heading for chaos, disaster and real tragedy.. and that too suits those who hold the real power in our world... and that may yet prove their undoing.. unfortunately, it could well prove also to be ours...

[jamieknyc]

Don't presume to tell me what I do and dont get Jamie.. cant say bout ordinary working people in your country.. but can say this bout them 'ere.. when the chips are down.. they do not generally suffer from the inverted snobbery which can blight a just cause..

I can't speak for twhat they do "'ere", but in America working people are unwilling to put up with condescending treatment like what you posted in this thread from the Frans of the world.

[tenni]

Well, it looks like after this weekend that the mainstream media has finally caught up with the internet social media. As previously stated on places like Facebook, it has spread. Los Angeles, and several other cities in the US are planning similar events. In Canada, there will be a protest on Bay Street(Financial district in Toronto) as well as many large cities across Canada. The first planning meeting was Sept. 29 and by Sunday today over 800 people had signed up stating that they would attend on Saturday, Oct. 15. The protest of Occupy Toronto is the same. Other places such as Tokyo are also making similar plans. It is interesting that comments of Facebook and statements about what will be coming are so far ahead of the mainstream media. I'm not sure but I wonder what is behind this ability to be able to predict that this type of protest is going to spread? Is this the Western worlds reaction to the Arab Spring as is being stated or is it some kind of manipulation of the masses?

I also know/believe that if 800 people say that they will come on Facebook doesn't always make it so. However, there has been another similar protest in Canada over our PM and democracy. Over 100 000 Canucks came out in the cold of a January protest.

[darkeyes]

I can't speak for twhat they do "'ere", but in America working people are unwilling to put up with condescending treatment like what you posted in this thread from the Frans of the world.

...like wot I did hey Jamie... s'ok.. Jambos gubbed the Tims 2 day so am in 2 gud a mood 2 rise 2 the bait...:tong:

[void()]

And quite a bit of a bunch of bullies.

We have similar far-right thugs over here in ukuncut/bnp, spinning the line that it's all the fault of the bankers. Last time around they popped the word "Jewish" in front of the word "bankers", but the message is otherwise unchanged from the 1930s.

Well, then maybe there is truth in it being the bankers or wall street tycoons. I do not sense the 99% movement as seeking to escalate to warfare. If there is warfare it will most likely involve use of non-violence on the movement's part. I do think capturing of resources such as PayPal, government web interfaces illustrates several valuable points. The main one being how incompetent those allegedly in control really are. They are unable to keep services viable for users.

This also does illustrate a pure definition of terrorism. It also lets the 'powers that be' know they are on notice. We, the 'common people' can at will assert ourselves and gain control. We see what the 'man behind the curtain' does in our names. We do not like it and if need arises, we can abolish it.

And this was granted us in America by the Preamble of our Constitution. "We the people in order to create a more perfect union ..." For solutions, I believe we should consult the United Nations or Earth Federation. These folks appear to have great wisdom to offer humanity, if we heed it.

[Diva667]

I dont think this is formulated by the same old crowd of rt and lft wing bullies.

Although I will say I saw an article on Forbes yesterday about 700 of the protesters being arrested on Brooklyn Bridge. I saw another article about how Chase Bank donated a really large sum of money to the NYPD, which may or may not have happened the same day that the protests began.

I think this is people who, are tired of always being in debt to large faceless corporations who change the rules at whim and always in their favor (of course.) Corporations who got bailed out by the American taxpayer, and yet still treat us all like we are dirt under their shoes.

I think George W Bush and his cronyism finally woke up the people.

[void()]

I dont think this is formulated by the same old crowd of rt and lft wing bullies.

Although I will say I saw an article on Forbes yesterday about 700 of the protesters being arrested on Brooklyn Bridge. I saw another article about how Chase Bank donated a really large sum of money to the NYPD, which may or may not have happened the same day that the protests began.

I think this is people who, are tired of always being in debt to large faceless corporations who change the rules at whim and always in their favor (of course.) Corporations who got bailed out by the American taxpayer, and yet still treat us all like we are dirt under their shoes.

I think George W Bush and his cronyism finally woke up the people.

J.P. Morgan Chase's donation was presented several months ago. Police officials were grateful yet admitted the $4.5 million donation was barely a drop in the bucket in accord with their actual need. Bit of irony, a poster-board or few read, "The police are the 99%".

That makes sense. Police and soldiers are constantly underfunded, under equipped, under trained, but tasked to risk everything just like the 99%.

Side note, some time ago I was reading about a group referred to as the "White Knights". These white knights were supposedly to come into the world, unleash economic freedom, abolish slave masters. I feel as though Anonymous may be seen to represent the White Knights.

Anonymous are we all.
Anonymous the corporate slave master.
Anonymous lessons learned by guns in faces.
Anonymous graves of fallen brothers and sisters lining our streets.
Anonymous heeding the voiceless' rallying battle call.


Here's a thought. What if the White Knights / Anonymous are but a tool sugar coating a method of forming one world government? Many have fought against such a beast for many varied and valid reasons. Maybe Anonymous is the populous method of some other corrupt slave master. I do not think it is, however caution never hurt.

[jamieknyc]

I dont think this is formulated by the same old crowd of rt and lft wing bullies.

Although I will say I saw an article on Forbes yesterday about 700 of the protesters being arrested on Brooklyn Bridge. I saw another article about how Chase Bank donated a really large sum of money to the NYPD, which may or may not have happened the same day that the protests began.

I think this is people who, are tired of always being in debt to large faceless corporations who change the rules at whim and always in their favor (of course.) Corporations who got bailed out by the American taxpayer, and yet still treat us all like we are dirt under their shoes.

I think George W Bush and his cronyism finally woke up the people.

As I said above, almost all of the protestors are college-age white, middle class people. Having spent a good part of the past three years working on relief for people facing foreclosure and other debtors, I assue you they come from a completely different class of people.

What people do not realize who are not in lower Manhattan is that the 100 or so regular protestors during the week are orderly and have followed the small number of very reasonable rules given to them by the NYPD, and that the protest down here has been generally uneventful. The incidents have all happened on the weekends, when large numbers of wannabes come around here, attracted by the publicity and itching for 'action.'

[tenni]

Jamie
I am unclear as to why you make these types of posts?

What I get from them is that you seem to be rationalizing to dismiss the concern of these people as being based on falseness?

Cornell West is a black middle aged man (all be it a university prof)

There was no violence on the bridge from these posters was there? If this movement gets larger it may attract some who want to stop it or are not in agreement with the philosophy. The 700 air pilots were peaceful and not part of the orginal base group. These pilots were not university age kids.

You seem to be posting to dismiss the concerns about abuses by banks and the corporate world. Its like you are posting for 'da man"...:bigrin:

[jamieknyc]

I'm not sure Tenni but isn't it a fact that the United States does not accept that American citizens can surrender their citizenship even upon taking out that of another country?

British citizens who are expats can remain in the country for so many days a year and pay no taxation (90 I think) but no doubt Jamie or some American will be able to enlighten you about their tax obligations as expats. I have several American friends here who have never heard from the IRS since they settled in this country so what the rules are God knows.. but if they expect a contribution for nothing they do have a bloody cheek.

As you requested:
The United States is one of the few countries that taxes its citizens anywhere in the world. You cannot do what people do in Britain and other European countries and acquire a residence in a tax haven and pay no taxes at home. Salary and other earned income is exempt up to $91,500 (or $183,000 for a married couple) for income earned in other countries. People drawing income from investments are not ex empt. Also, taxpayers may be entitled to credits for taxes paid in the foreign country.

Contrary to popular belief, you cannot give up your US citizenship for the purpose of evading taxes.

What Void was referring to about immigrants was the huge number of illegal aliens (12 million by last count) many of whom work in cash businesses or off-the-books employment nad pay no taxes.

[jamieknyc]

Jamie
I am unclear as to why you make these types of posts?

What I get from them is that you seem to be rationalizing to dismiss the concern of these people as being based on falseness?

Cornell West is a black middle aged man (all be it a university prof)

There was no violence on the bridge from these posters was there? If this movement gets larger it may attract some who want to stop it or are not in agreement with the philosophy. The 700 air pilots were peaceful and not part of the orginal base group. These pilots were not university age kids.

You seem to be posting to dismiss the concerns about abuses by banks and the corporate world. Its like you are posting for 'da man"...:bigrin:

First of all, the protestors are not in any way a threat to the banks and corporations, who aren't in Lower Manhattan and who are supremely indifferent. If you don't believe me, read the coverage of the protest in the Wall Street Journal.

Also, Cornel West is not out there protesting- he made a half-hour appearance with the TV cameras running, leaving the kids to camp out in their sleeping bags while Professor West's car and driver took him to his next $15,000 speaking engagement. I feel sorry for the protestors there with signs saying they have thousands of dollars in student-loan debt, while West gets a baseball-player salary from the university.

[darkeyes]

As you requested:
What Void was referring to about immigrants was the huge number of illegal aliens (12 million by last count) many of whom work in cash businesses or off-the-books employment nad pay no taxes.

We have the same prob here Jamie... but many thousands of illegal aliens actually do pay tax on their earnings and are recorded as having done so.. many thousands of other pay none and it can be a bug bear eve if not always their fault.. all pay indirect taxes such as VAT of course but one of the shittiest things is the unscrupulous employers who pay shit wages and then deduct tax and national insurance from wages of which the Revenue never see a penny..

However one thing which people should realise about illegal immigrants who work, is that so low are their wages in most instances that they would not be liable for income tax in the first place.

Something to be remembered at least in respect of this country is that illegal immigrants are responsible for modest but goodly slice of the national wealth (such as it is these days) and contribute by their employment, production and by the taxes they do actually pay, much more than they get back from a very unforgiving and often racist, xenophobic society...

[darkeyes]

Jamie
You seem to be posting to dismiss the concerns about abuses by banks and the corporate world. Its like you are posting for 'da man"...:bigrin:

Never mind Tenni, heavy handed bobbying and a few arrests has a nasty habit of galvanising protest.. nothing quite like a little bit of help from the forces of law and order to advertise a dispute...:)

[jamieknyc]

We have the same prob here Jamie... but many thousands of illegal aliens actually do pay tax on their earnings and are recorded as having done so.. many thousands of other pay none and it can be a bug bear eve if not always their fault.. all pay indirect taxes such as VAT of course but one of the shittiest things is the unscrupulous employers who pay shit wages and then deduct tax and national insurance from wages of which the Revenue never see a penny..

However one thing which people should realise about illegal immigrants who work, is that so low are their wages in most instances that they would not be liable for income tax in the first place.

Something to be remembered at least in respect of this country is that illegal immigrants are responsible for modest but goodly slice of the national wealth (such as it is these days) and contribute by their employment, production and by the taxes they do actually pay, much more than they get back from a very unforgiving and often racist, xenophobic society...

In the UK it is harder to avoid the reach of the authorities than it is in America. I have relatives in London, so I hear it from the source.

In the US, the burden of illegal aliens does not fall so much on the national government, since all the rhetoric aside, you have to make over $70,000 a year to owe more than a small amount of federal income tax, and the federal government collects most of its income tax revenue from the top 2% of taxpayers. Most of the burden falls on state and local governments, which have to provide schools, fire, police and emergency protection, and medical care for illegal aliens.

[jamieknyc]

Never mind Tenni, heavy handed bobbying and a few arrests has a nasty habit of galvanising protest.. nothing quite like a little bit of help from the forces of law and order to advertise a dispute...:)

here they have had the opposite problem: the NYPD has given them free reign, forcing the protestors to keep coming up with new ideas to try to keep the crowd from getting bored and quitting. Sometimes it even gets comical. This morning when I came in to work, I saw a pair of Japanese tourists having their picture taken in front of the demonstration, with the photo being taken by an obliging NYPD officer.

[darkeyes]

In the UK it is harder to avoid the reach of the authorities than it is in America. I have relatives in London, so I hear it from the source.

In the US, the burden of illegal aliens does not fall so much on the national government, since all the rhetoric aside, you have to make over $70,000 a year to owe more than a small amount of federal income tax, and the federal government collects most of its income tax revenue from the top 2% of taxpayers. Most of the burden falls on state and local governments, which have to provide schools, fire, police and emergency protection, and medical care for illegal aliens.

Is it? 'ccordin 2 u the US govt pursue citizens for tax an it dusn matta wetha they live in the country or not... but don't deny this is a nosey, over governed, big brother kinda place.. whether worse than yours I dunno... but suspect yours is moren u like 2 think..

..an we only have 1 centrally collected income tax (although Scotland can up or down it by 3p in the pound if the Scottish parliament so wishes) an bein a lil place, the burden, if burden it is, is shared by all throughout the Union... wont say equally cos the tax system is hardly fair an equal... but that's another issue for another day...;)

[darkeyes]

here they have had the opposite problem: the NYPD has given them free reign, forcing the protestors to keep coming up with new ideas to try to keep the crowd from getting bored and quitting. Sometimes it even gets comical. This morning when I came in to work, I saw a pair of Japanese tourists having their picture taken in front of the demonstration, with the photo being taken by an obliging NYPD officer.

.. funny how the reports we get here dont quite match up to the nice rosy an cosy pic u paint.. Tenni is prob right....

[love1234]

In all fairness I want to point out a few things regarding poverty in the U.S.

Being in the U.S and poor is not quite like being in other countries and being poor. Those countries look at the U.S. poor, justifiably so, as being far better off than they could ever dream.

Yesterday my wife reported back to the Human Resources department. They are the agency which handles issues of welfare, namely in our case, food stamps. My wife has recently found herself employed. This employment, albeit merely at minimum wage, causes us to be unqualified for food stamps.

She complained of the guy on the other end of the phone conversation. "Idiot." He was expecting her to scream, bawl and carry on rashly over loosing food stamps. Instead, "That's fine. I at least needed to report it as required." She knew it would disqualify us, we knew.

We were getting around $300 a month to help buy food. Now, we don't get it because it goes to help others whom are in more need. That's at least how it is supposed to function. We pay taxes in to help offset our welfare, get food stamps when not employed, help others when employed. But the system is corrupt.

There are many cases where immigrants drive to minimum wage jobs in new expensive cars. They pay no taxes as they aren't citizens. They get food stamps, free medical care, free school funds. But they can afford all sorts new and expensive stuff. They can take unscheduled weeks off at a time, not call off and still have jobs. I have seen it.

No, I am not prejudice. But the system is corrupt when it allows this. And it does not stop with immigrants. Affirmative action is a big problem as well. Some African Americans do much the same as the leeching immigrants. Even some of their own call these sorts niggers in derogatory tones. Have to agree with that, trash is trash. Of course, there are also white niggers whom follow the same course as the leeches. So it is honestly not prejudice, unless you say it is prejudice against leeches.

Me and mine are not leeches. Yes we may have it a little better than elsewhere. But there are large gaps between have and have not, even in the U.S.. We appreciate having help when we ask. But it is harder for those offering help when leeches exist, to help those whom do try helping themselves.

I served in the military. Would have died for our country if needed. Look around now and probably still would. But understand if given my choice I would not die for leeches. Nor would I expect another to die in my place. Our country has become a cesspool because of corruption. You can not swim to live for all the dung. The dung includes all this rhetoric. The rhetoric is probably the more dung filled.


Sarcasm or irony here a bit. "Welcome to 1984, where it hurts to think. But I still think. Sorry, I'm not a robot or capital. I'm human."

The local sheriffs busted some Mexican invaders. They were working construction. They happen to see their pay stubs. The sheriffs all said the would quit being sheriffs if they could work the same jobs as the illegals for the same money. This was front page news in local papers.

The companies did not pay most locals the same wages as they paid the illegals. Locals made much less is what I heard.

Guy working at little local store told me they at times are selling 5000 bucks a day in just beer. He told me it was mostly Mexicans buying the beer.

[love1234]

In the UK it is harder to avoid the reach of the authorities than it is in America. I have relatives in London, so I hear it from the source.

In the US, the burden of illegal aliens does not fall so much on the national government, since all the rhetoric aside, you have to make over $70,000 a year to owe more than a small amount of federal income tax, and the federal government collects most of its income tax revenue from the top 2% of taxpayers. Most of the burden falls on state and local governments, which have to provide schools, fire, police and emergency protection, and medical care for illegal aliens.

The tax burden is greatest on the working poor. They take large part of your check. Then they tax every move you make and near everything you buy. The working poor should revolt but they are too busy trying to survive.

Some people with children that know how to work the system like not getting married do better.

[Diva667]

http://youtu.be/Aqa78OQyp3Y

[darkeyes]

The tax burden is greatest on the working poor. They take large part of your check. Then they tax every move you make and near everything you buy. The working poor should revolt but they are too busy trying to survive.



For once yas sed summat 'bout how it is... the state (or in the case of the US, state and states) may gather less from the poor than it does from the better able to pay, but as a burden on they themselves, the poor, in the case of the UK, working or not working and on benefit and/or pension, pay a larger slice of their income to the tax man in income tax, VAT, Fuel duty (if by some miracle they can own a car), Road Tax, Council Tax (property tax) etc than anyone else..

..and since the fall of the Labour government last year, that share of the tax burden has increased mightily... especially on women, and most especially on poorer women.. child poverty which was falling until last year has begun to rise alarmingly and the buggers arent finished yet.. increases in tax accross the board have increased prices dramatically (as well as world commodity prices) and with a smaller take home, allied to swiftly rising prices, housing, transport costs etc, the burden on the poor, the least able to get through crisis, is becoming intolerable..

[Diva667]

http://wearethe99percent.tumblr.com/

[Hephaestion]

Recently it has been highlighted that there are a number of dodges being used by employers to circumvent their legal obligations towards the employed.

1) Under EU rules someone must be employed on part time or full time basis if they are effectively doing a job. We have borrowed Interships from the USA where slaves do the job for nothing, supposedly either being evaluated or gaining experience. Therefore these employed are being issued with ZERO hours contracts in which there is ZERO reward. Apparently this satisfies the legislation.

2) Nurses in private organsations are being restricted on theor claims. They are only allowed to claim for those periods where they are actively administering to the ill at their bedsides. Travel costs and time are not allowed neither is overnight attendance at the property involved. All of this effectively undermines the minimum wage legislation.

While on the point of exploitation, there are the effects of: robbing pensioners of their savings; milking the students through tuition fees, so much so that even the USA is now financially attractive; alterations proposed to the legal system to prevent no win no fee pursuance of general rights and the undermining of industrial tribunal opportunities to challenge employer misbehaviour.

We are in a financial mess and yet no one mentions that it costs £90k per missile fired in the various skirmishes. Latterly it has been acknowledged that the UK had failed in its mission to Iraq and is doing lamentably badly in Afghanistan.

[void()]

"If this movement gets larger it may attract some who want to stop it or are not in agreement with the philosophy. The 700 air pilots were peaceful and not part of the original base group. These pilots were not university age kids. " --tenni

Message to NATO (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LX-QJ4fY254&NR=1)
Message to You (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8S8U59IW0XM&feature=related)
The Plan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Drx8cwG-aKE&feature=player_embedded)
Days of Rage (http://www.usdayofrage.org/about.html)
Invade (http://www.examiner.com/anonymous-in-national/anonymous-announces-operation-invade-wall-street)
Occupy (http://www.occupytogether.org/)
Testify (http://www.occupyeverywhere.com/)
Khaled Said (http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2011/01/30/el-shaheed-the-mysterious-anonymous-behind-egypt-s-revolt.html) remember Egypt (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/01/28/939598/-Anonymous-statement-on-Egypt).

If we get any bigger, they may start shipping us off to the moon. We'd occupy it and formulate means to further expedite a revolution of evolution here on Earth. Bring more of our brothers and sisters with us to the moon.

Ideas are bulletproof. One falls, ten more arise.

"Recently it has been highlighted that there are a number of dodges being used by employers to circumvent their legal obligations towards the employed." -- Heph

Recently highlighted yes, but not merely a 'recent' problem. This 'song' has remained the same for quite a long time. The whispered rally cries of the voiceless masses now have become roaring thunder.

While not condoning violent terrorism, I do think non-violent protesting en masse a good tactic. Let 'the powers that be' arrest or jack boot everyone protesting, film it, spread the word. If only the method of defensive support and non-violent protest is is used, the world may change, we the people may win without a fight. I am not saying one needs to not defend oneself. Do defend yourself, or others but, only after defensive support and with the minimum amount of reasonable force needed. In other words, sure take a few punches for the team and cameras, but don't let thugs beat you to death. We have a right to defend ourselves, after all.

And this movement, this revolt is a tool, an idea. Many of us share it. The world is messed up. Let us unite and converse, figure out how we all may help fix it. We all may not always agree. That's fine. At the very least, we can agree on setting aside petty differences, hearing one another out, putting up a common idea and either vote it up or down as a true democracy. We have that ability now. It is the medium we're soaking in presently. No government can abolish the internet. Our voice will be heard.

[darkeyes]

Protest in a democratic society is our right.. it is our basic human right in any society, even those which make it illegal.. but illegality does not prevent protest from occurring nor shall it ever..

Protest and demonstration can be and is often effective.. but sometimes we have to go farther in combating injustice, not simply by the state and its tools, but against any organisation which infringes basic human rights and by its actions is an affrontery to people of good conscience. At times we must move from protest and demonstration to more pro-active campaign of civil disobedience where people may have to break the law albeit peacefully to achieve their ends.. sometimes breaking the law is not necessary but occasionally in any campaign of civil dsobedience this will be both unavoidable and necessary..

Two great proponents of civil disobedience were the American philospher Henry Thoreau, and of course the great Mahatma himself who preferred the term "civil resistance". Thoreau's great essay on civil disobedience can be downloaded on line and both what Ghandi and Thoreau have to say are important to any who love liberty and Ghandi's writings are everywhere if people care to look.. both what Ghandi and Thoreau have to tell us about is essential reading for any who believe that things are wrong in our society and feel the democratic system is inadequate to meet the demands of the people.... this does not mean we do not believe in democracy but recognises that democracy does have shortcomings which need to be addressed.. it is not anti democracy, but a democratic right of all free people and a protection of whatever democracy and freedoms we may have...the writings of both men take us away from simple protest and allow us to find that there is another way of achieving change by stopping short of violent revolution.

Civil disobedience, or civil resistence has a long history of success.. from changing great and small issues to entire societies it has had great effect. It is not infallable and does not guarantee success but iis a rect has an outstanding track record. usually it is non violent but most violence is inflicted upon the disobedient rather than the disobedient starting with violence.. the risk is always bloody revolution especially in societies where there is no democratic history or where there is a history of democratic instability and occasional absence. But where a society has that democratic history, civil disobedience generally does not turn into violent revolution. Even this year we have seen successful civil disobedience campaigns in the middle east and several less successful.. one turning to civil war and revolution..

Nothing is guaranteed in life,. from protest to civil disobedience to revolution danger always exists of failure.. but the chances of something good coming out of peaceful protest and/or non violent civil disobedience are far greater than by civil war and revolution...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Disobedience_(Thoreau)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohandas_K._Gandhi

[jamieknyc]

For once yas sed summat 'bout how it is... the state (or in the case of the US, state and states) may gather less from the poor than it does from the better able to pay, but as a burden on they themselves, the poor, in the case of the UK, working or not working and on benefit and/or pension, pay a larger slice of their income to the tax man in income tax, VAT, Fuel duty (if by some miracle they can own a car), Road Tax, Council Tax (property tax) etc than anyone else..

..and since the fall of the Labour government last year, that share of the tax burden has increased mightily... especially on women, and most especially on poorer women.. child poverty which was falling until last year has begun to rise alarmingly and the buggers arent finished yet.. increases in tax accross the board have increased prices dramatically (as well as world commodity prices) and with a smaller take home, allied to swiftly rising prices, housing, transport costs etc, the burden on the poor, the least able to get through crisis, is becoming intolerable..

In the US, the working poor can zero out income tax with an earned-income credit, and pay only social security tax. In the US, local taxes are mostly property tax, and fall mostly on middle-class homeowners rather than the poor.

[Diva667]

This on Salon:

http://politics.salon.com/2011/10/05/a_proposed_demand_for_occupy_wall_street/?source=newsletter


So my immodest proposal is simply this: Individuals and households in the bottom 99 percent who owe debt to any large financial institution that received federal government support during and after the 2008 crisis should see their debt forgiven. That would certainly stimulate the economy, as most people would suddenly find themselves with a great deal more money to spend on iPads (and food, and clothing, and housing, and healthcare). The debt can be forgiven by decree or if the government really wants to it can step in to pay it itself; I don’t much care either way. (Though it’d be nice to see it just wiped off the books, to enrage the banks.)

[jamieknyc]

Is it? 'ccordin 2 u the US govt pursue citizens for tax an it dusn matta wetha they live in the country or not... but don't deny this is a nosey, over governed, big brother kinda place.. whether worse than yours I dunno... but suspect yours is moren u like 2 think..

..an we only have 1 centrally collected income tax (although Scotland can up or down it by 3p in the pound if the Scottish parliament so wishes) an bein a lil place, the burden, if burden it is, is shared by all throughout the Union... wont say equally cos the tax system is hardly fair an equal... but that's another issue for another day...;)

In recent years, the IRS has tried to collect money held overseas for tax evasion, mostly from Switzerland and other bank secrecy and tax havens.

Tax enforcement actions at home are harder to carry out because it is difficult to enforce tax laws against small businesses and workers who make cash incomes.

[void()]

In the US, the working poor can zero out income tax with an earned-income credit, and pay only social security tax. In the US, local taxes are mostly property tax, and fall mostly on middle-class homeowners rather than the poor.

EIC does not completely abolish income tax. Yes it helps. No it does not eliminate all income tax. You also need to earn so much annually to qualify for the EIC. Employers can control wages, time you work, reporting figures and so cause you to not qualify.

And yes, there are laws to prevent such things. The laws are not equally enforced because larger employers afford lobbyists, lawyers to either litigate, or bribe law makers and enforcers. You cannot tell me corruption such as this does not exist. You could but how likely would it be true?

Wife pays property tax on her automobile. Our computers fortunately have depreciated continually, and can be upgraded in affordable manner without risking incursion of taxation. We in essence do not have property.

Currently, living in her parent's home and contributing best we can when able. And we don't always contribute money, might be spare hands for a project benefiting everyone, could be ideas on how to do or attain something.

Her automobile is paid for and an older model. It does use a fair bit of gas but having it paid off balances that. We do not really have many luxuries. We do all manage to keep a DirectTV subscription, as if that is really a luxury. At times when there is a little money ahead, we may rent an 'all day ticket' movie or two.

We keep the internet because my brother in law uses it for his college courses. It also offers some entertainment/educational/informative/social value for all of us. Me and my wife try to avoid shopping in Wal-Mart, as it can be expensive, not to mention some moral issues.

Her parent's home is paid off, yet property taxes come due on it. Never have understood paying fees for something you buy for your own. Oh well, maybe I ought to go to school and become a lawyer. Wait, cannot afford the debt of it, that's right. Darn. Americans pay taxes but education is not free. That seems really odd to me.

And yes, I note grants exist. I was recently looking at a course catalog for one of our local universities. One course required 12 hours for credit and was invoiced at $600 per course hour.

The Pell grant was only for $1k per semester. You needed 4 semesters to advance to the next grade level, where you needed another 12 course hours. So on until finally after two years, you have an associates degree.

The books and course materials were separate costs, averaging $4-600. That's only 1 class, a degree requires several classes. You are allowed only 1 Pell grant per semester.

So, yes the grants exist but fall very short of helping. Community coffers also only go so far. This means you need to work and hope you can manage to do school assignments. Employers can also demand you be present for more work time, not afford you time at school.

Lose the job, lose schooling. Lose schooling, lose the job. It is a no win ultimatum which forces slavery upon people. Want a good job to afford housing and necessities? Go to school. Need school? Go to work to afford it. No do not ask if education is a necessity. Shut up and buy junk products.

Wish I could wear your rosy shades about our situation, brother. But it seems even them on reality is still quite drab.

[jamieknyc]

Instead of carrying out a large load of bitterness, why don't you try making a contribution? Throughout the difficulties of the last three years, I have done my part to help people, usually for only nomimal pay and sometimes without pay. You can do your part too.

[darkeyes]

Instead of carrying out a large load of bitterness, why don't you try making a contribution? Throughout the difficulties of the last three years, I have done my part to help people, usually for only nomimal pay and sometimes without pay. You can do your part too.

I wont decry your contribution Jamie.. it is a good thing to help those less well off than ourselves.. many people do it and it is a good thing. However it isn't enough.. it changes nothing.. as long as we live in the world as it is there will always be those less fortunate than ourselves that society, the system and great corporations shit on and dispossess... always be those who will be needy because of a system which is unfeeling and unresponsive to thier needs in preference to the needs of those who are already incredibly wealthy, prosperous and powerful.. which does not care.

I did not sense in Voidie's post bitterness.. sadness.. anger.. almost resignation but not bitterness.. I can afford to live without bitterness for myself and mine own.. Kate and I live well and have good jobs and prospects.. Siobhan goes to a good school and we shall do what we can to ensure that she reaches her maximum potential, and the same will be done for Louise when the time comes...

Yet I have anger, and sadness.. but I have bitterness too... bitterness at a society, government and world which looks after its own, and allows the least able to fend for themselves to be even less able to fend for themselves.. denies them the resources and the opportunities which they deserve and have a right to.. every day I see misery on the streets of our country..I see kids at school wearing ever more threadbare clothing.. the increase in the numbers of beggars is noticable.. more businesses closing and more people walking the streets trying to find some kind of employment to keep body and soul as well as family together... and dont get me started on what is being done to the fucking health service.. and what is happening to the health of the poor as a result...

The least well off are the ones who are being deprived of most in our society.. like your own.. the safety net that the welfare state was set up to be is being eroded and millions more have dropped into poverty in just 17 short months since the government came to power. The future is as bleak as it is because the government is making it more bleak than it need be in the name of greed and capital.. by withering the welfare state which has served this country so well for 60 years.. not perfectly.. but well..

I am unable to sit idly by and watch my country and its least well off suffer the ravages of a government and system which cares not one jot for their deprivation and misery.. it is not enough to sit down and help people by doing things for a few, at a nominal fee or even for nothing.. so I am active at work, in my trade union, in my local community in trying to raise awareness that it need not be thus.. as the labour movement of my country begins to stir and campaign against cuts in the welfare state, in education, in health, in housing, in employment opportunity, in working conditions and in pensions.. as the government allows its own supporters, the banks, multi nationals and the wealthy more or less a free hand to do as they will without uttering a word of sincere condemnation, like many millions of workers, and unemployed people I will do my bit to stop them.. I am but one person.. but there are millions like me..

We may or may not make a real difference.. but by sitting on our hands and allowing government and corporations to do what they will by riding rough shod over people, nothing will change.. sitting down and doing a little work for those in difficulty for a nominal fee or even on a voluntary basis is laudible... but it is not enough and never will be... protest, demonstration, strike, civil disobedience are all far more important and effective than what you tell Voidie to do.. you told me a few days ago I was condescending... that may or may not be true in respect of what I said then.. but what you tell Voidie is condescending and fucking patronising and incredibly inadequate in the face of the attack on ordinary people which both your, and my own society are pursuing...

[void()]

Instead of carrying out a large load of bitterness, why don't you try making a contribution? Throughout the difficulties of the last three years, I have done my part to help people, usually for only nomimal pay and sometimes without pay. You can do your part too.

Wow. That is really harsh. You have no idea that we give to Red Cross, Salvation Army, some other worthy charities such as support for Vets, if and when we are able. All you know is what is here in text. You presume knowing we do not contribute? Wow. Just wow.

I never questioned your contribution, nor call you names. What I see of you leaves respect, usually. Wow, thanks for blowing away common ground. And even if one does contribute, there comes a point when one stops and thinks "why bother? It only keeps declining. It needs to change." Yes, I considered an education.

Upon seeing how much it changes a person and how, no thanks. You are a fine example. Carry on. Wow, wow.

*wanders off shaking noggin in pure astonishment*

To be honest, yes I do resent some people whom live far more affluently. Realize though, human beings are not a commodity as those whom are in such a case would present us as. If having resentment about oppression, corruption is bitterness then whatever floats your boat. I do not feel bitter. Enraged, resolute perhaps but also hopeful we can make a peaceful stand and change the world for the better.

*looks at jamie's post again, shakes noggin and puts hands in air* Wow, wow.

[darkeyes]

Wow. That is really harsh. You have no idea that we give to Red Cross, Salvation Army, some other worthy charities such as support for Vets, if and when we are able. All you know is what is here in text. You presume knowing we do not contribute? Wow. Just wow.

I never questioned your contribution, nor call you names. What I see of you leaves respect, usually. Wow, thanks for blowing away common ground. And even if one does contribute, there comes a point when one stops and thinks "why bother? It only keeps declining. It needs to change." Yes, I considered an education.

Upon seeing how much it changes a person and how, no thanks. You are a fine example. Carry on. Wow, wow.

*wanders off shaking noggin in pure astonishment*

To be honest, yes I do resent some people whom live far more affluently. Realize though, human beings are not a commodity as those whom are in such a case would present us as. If having resentment about oppression, corruption is bitterness then whatever floats your boat. I do not feel bitter. Enraged, resolute perhaps but also hopeful we can make a peaceful stand and change the world for the better.

*looks at jamie's post again, shakes noggin and puts hands in air* Wow, wow.

Shook me own head in astonishment Voidie and broke out in2 hysterical laughter.. the awesome complacency of some peeps.. do a lil voluntary work.. stuff on the cheap for peeps in bother.. chuck a few quid 2 charity.. an all will be well..

We both know none of these things change very much.. they all tinker with the periphery of the problem without getting to the root of it...they help shore up what is.. I prefer to knock down what is falling apart and rebuild.. if society and the social and economic system in which we live was a house it would have been knocked down years ago.. or at the very least it would have been renovated completely and made anew.. the rotten wood ripped out, rewiring done, broken lintels replaced and new walls, floors and ceilings created to make it habitable and decent for folk 2 live in..

When a landlord owns a delapidated slum he has to make it decent and if he doesnt, he has to be made to.. that means acting.. and sometimes by acting we will find it hard going and make sacrifices.. in the case of our delapidated slum we actually own it, but unfortunately, our housing manager thinks he does and he has lots of heavies around to keep us from improving our own property and financiers and others who want to make their fast buck out of us and tries to make us feel guilty both for the state of the slum and obligated to him for making it into the run down hovel it is and making it ever more difficult to afford to pay for and live in it..

Jamie's view is not untypical and I don't know why you are quite so surprised at the disappearance of common ground.. but babes, I too shake me poor lil noggin and laugh at a view of the world which has long since passed its sell by date..

[love1234]

Well, then maybe there is truth in it being the bankers or wall street tycoons. I do not sense the 99% movement as seeking to escalate to warfare. If there is warfare it will most likely involve use of non-violence on the movement's part. I do think capturing of resources such as PayPal, government web interfaces illustrates several valuable points. The main one being how incompetent those allegedly in control really are. They are unable to keep services viable for users.

This also does illustrate a pure definition of terrorism. It also lets the 'powers that be' know they are on notice. We, the 'common people' can at will assert ourselves and gain control. We see what the 'man behind the curtain' does in our names. We do not like it and if need arises, we can abolish it.

And this was granted us in America by the Preamble of our Constitution. "We the people in order to create a more perfect union ..." For solutions, I believe we should consult the United Nations or Earth Federation. These folks appear to have great wisdom to offer humanity, if we heed it.

The leaders are working for the same old banker, gangster thugs. There are some people that kind of really get it but those people will be shoved to the rear.

Till you hear hundreds of thousands of people yell loudly to end usury in many cities you know that the groups are being lead by people that are under control of The Powers That Be.

The common people are too programmed to ever assert themselves and gain control of any thing in this country.

[love1234]

As I said above, almost all of the protestors are college-age white, middle class people. Having spent a good part of the past three years working on relief for people facing foreclosure and other debtors, I assue you they come from a completely different class of people.

What people do not realize who are not in lower Manhattan is that the 100 or so regular protestors during the week are orderly and have followed the small number of very reasonable rules given to them by the NYPD, and that the protest down here has been generally uneventful. The incidents have all happened on the weekends, when large numbers of wannabes come around here, attracted by the publicity and itching for 'action.' The weekend people have jobs.

[love1234]

In the US, the working poor can zero out income tax with an earned-income credit, and pay only social security tax. In the US, local taxes are mostly property tax, and fall mostly on middle-class homeowners rather than the poor.

Lets just take a poor persons car. First they buy it then pay a tax. Then they register it and one more tax paid, then they have to have their permission slips to drive it. That would be three taxes learners permit, permit and plates.

Then the government makes them give bucks to corporation hidden tax and welfare for corporation. Its call insurance. The car is older so it needs tune up so they get taxed on parts and the labor getting this done. Then they need tires so taxed again twice most places as they get charged for each tire that is tossed out, the oil changed again they are taxed. Then they in many places have to have the car inspected maybe twice in some places that's a tax or two.

So now car is on road and they need to drive to work and are taxed on the fuel.

This is how they (bloodsucking scum) rob the poor people daily.

[Diva667]

http://raisinghelletcforagoodcause.blogspot.com/2011/10/o-ye-of-little-faith-why-i-support.html?spref=fb


Here are Occupy messages that are hard to miss:
1) There are a lot of people out there who are really pissed off about how hard it is to take care of their basic needs - food, shelter, health care (hence, the “99%” signs). Occupy protests are happening (or being planned) in Seattle, Olympia, New York City, Los Angeles, Chicago, Boston, San Francisco, Salt Lake City, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Milwaukee, Madison, among others across the U.S. … Looks like the “personal responsibility” meme isn’t working so well right now.

2) And they (the pissed) are serious about demanding change: When was the last time Seattle saw a tent city of protesters showing up to demonstrate, sleep on the ground, pee in a porta-potty, wash with hand sanitizer, and eagerly await the donation of some stranger’s used socks and sleeping bag? At the same time similar protests were going on across the U.S.?

http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2011/10/06/Occupy_Wall_Street_Protests_Go_Global/


The Occupy Wall Street protest gained more strength today as protesters across the nation — including hundreds, perhaps thousands of LGBTQ activists — marched in their own cities to show solidarity with the protest that began in New York City three weeks ago.

OccupyTogether, a website that sprung up as a hub for all the regional protests, lists 749 cities planning protests, rallies, or meet-ups this month, from places as diverse as Denver, Louisville, Chicago, Minneapolis, Fort Lauderdale, Fla., and Pocatello, Idaho or Birmingham, Ala. Organizers of the latter city’s protests say October 15 is expected to be the largest protest day yet: “Something big is going to happen on that date," reported a self-proclaimed member of Anonymous about what's in store for Occupy Birmingham.

http://www.occupytogether.org/

[Diva667]

http://youtu.be/xpOMlDVaXzc

Video of cops beating up protestors at Occupywallst

[darkeyes]

As summa ya may kno, me has a m8 lives in Seattle.. 'er parents are flyin 2 New York this weekend for a fun mucky well earned break 2 celebrate 'er dad's retirement.. an she is nippin ova ther 2 spend a llil time wiv 'em.. she also intends 2 hav a lil look c at the protest 2 day b4 they arrive..

.. now me knos 'er lil look c's an wot she means by lil look c.. an kno wot she thinks an feels bout the protest.. she is afta all the grandchild of coal miners and the child of a ver left wing one time Labour councillor.. an kno just how handy she is wiv 'er shoulder bag... an just how much girlie essentials she carries in that shoulder bag.. so if any ofyas r 'bout just warn the polis 2 go easy on 'er... she really wont mean 2 brain any of 'em if she thinks they r gettin a wee tadge heavy an unpleasant.. an she wont mean 2 brain ne protestor who she thinks is gettin outa hand... but mean it or not.. 'er shoulda bags r the stuff of legend 'ere.. an the accuracy wiv which they r swung..:eek: Do hope she uses 'er gob if things get nasty an not that bloody bag... :rolleyes:

..hmmm... hope she can have nice time wiv mummy an daddy an not just say hi from a prison cell or ova a courtroom floor..:(

[Diva667]

Declaration of the Occupation of New York City



We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known.

They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage.

They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.

They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one’s skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation.

They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.

They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless animals, and actively hide these practices.

They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.

They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.

They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay.

They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility.

They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.

They have sold our privacy as a commodity.

They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press. They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit.

They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.

They have donated large sums of money to politicians, who are responsible for regulating them.

They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.

They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives or provide relief in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantial profit.

They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit.

They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.

They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.

They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad. They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.

They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts. *

https://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/10/02-1

[darkeyes]

Luff me dad dearly but this mornin wen he returned the kids he an I had a lil tiff... wot 'bout? Well showed 'im this..

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/08/occupy-america-protests-financial-crisis

..an commented upon the Vietnam generation maybe.. just maybe findin their consciences and getting involved in the struggle for justice and fairness in the world.. a real change in the way things are...bit of a salve really.. an a bit bloody late since it was their, yes, my dad's generation that have brought us to the shit mess we are in.. them and the bloody 60's hippies of which he was one..an me mum.. who scorned the opportunity to make a real difference..

Now maybe.. just maybe after havin cocked everything up so badly over the last 40 years and turned our societies into greedy parasitical very selfish places, they have realised it just isnt working.. me dad has always known it wasnt working but has spent most of my life making excuses for his generation an saying that the day will come when they will come good.. well.. here is their bloody chance now that they are finding it hard going.. they have lived off the fat of (other peoples) land since they were kids and little moren kids... seduced by promises of riches and a nice comfy life which is now increasingly being denied them.. and they created our world as it is.. the selfish bastards have sat and waited until their balls were being squeezed hard before they finally began to switch their brains in gear.. early days yet.. over here even earlier.. but the signs are there..

..harsh? Me??? A child of that generation? Of parents who love me and did wonderful things for me? Who made sure I was educated and had a real future? Bloody right, not cos I'm hurting cos tbh I am not personally.. cant save quite as much but can still live well and am doing ok ta ver much.. me parents gave me everything they could.. including a social conscience and awareness of the world which I can never forget and am ever so grateful for.. but for all that, their generation didn't do enough, and that includes them personally, to stop the world being as shit as it is.. they brought their kids, the kids of the 80's and 90's into the world and turned them into pretty indecent imitations of themselves... greedier more selfish and downright less pleasant.. now they should be paying back something for that lil oversight.. a few are stirring or at least are beginning to..

They had a chance to make a real difference 40 odd years ago and blew it.. they were corrupted by what was which was deemed more attractive than what could be... and by their own hand made it worse... now they, and my generation have a chance to make a difference together.. what is happening in America and elsewhere are part of a larger world wide feeling of dissatisfaction with what is now..and peeps know what needs changing.. 'bout time we got around to making sure it happens and not repeat the mistakes of the generation before.. harsh? Bloody right I am harsh.. looking around the state of my country and the hardship and misery which surrounds me.. at the state of Europe and America and the rest of the developed world.. at the state the whole world has been brought to by the generation of the 1960's and early 70's.. they deserve all the odium that comes their way..

..and if my generation blows it like my parent's generation.. then my kids and every other kid on the planet have every right to hold me and my generation as well as that which went before up to absolute ridicule and contempt..

[tenni]

Ok...I'd like to address you darkeyes.

"They had a chance to make a real difference 40 odd years ago and blew it.. they were corrupted by what was which was deemed more attractive than what could be... and by their own hand made it worse... now they, and my generation have a chance to make a difference together.. "

What you need to understand is that not everyone was in agreement with that Peace Movement at that time. There was a manipulation of that movement as well just as the 26 year old is afraid that the Democrats will take over this Occupy movement.

Those who co opted the 40 odd year ago movement for commercial purposes went on to become the corporate bastards. They generally never really believed in it. Even if they smoked pot and dropped acid at one time. Others who believed were seduced into making a living to raise the children and all the pressures that involves. They became the profesionals or tradesmen. Some kept basic beliefs from that era that you may just consider normal..they were not the norm of the 50's and so it was a social revolution that did make huge changes. Some kept to the hippy belief otherwise we wouldn't have a Chasty Bono now Chaz. Or a Moonbeam(not sure I have that right) Zappa. Facing the real world of wanting comfort eventually impacted those who were ideal.

There was however a more universal "feel" venier to that era that was co opted and perpetuated by the corporate world through movies etc.

There was an idealism that did make changes though.

There was an extreme violent aspect to that era. Extreme as has not been really seen since imo. Within ten years, the idealism of Kennedy was murdered. His brother, Bobby, was murdered. Martin Luther King was murdered. All of these men embodied an idealism of hope and it was crushed. There were so many deaths of young people in places like Kent State and the Viet Nam war. Those protests were about the corporate world controlling and manipulating just as the protests are today about a the same basic issues. Some how materialism was presented to keep the masses calm. A belief that all are middle class but you can be too if you use our credit card. Credit cards didn't exist in the 50's I think..now why were they introduced in the 70's and became so mainstream and easy to get by the 80's?...hmmm gotta keep em under control..maybe?

The protests today that are spreading through the world may just be window dressing. I hope not. I think that it is good that those who once felt the idealism of wanting change ...real change have come back to this issue after having raised their kids. They may not have protested against the Viet Nam war when they were younger but I'm reading about retired nurses, retired teachers etc. joining this movement for the first time in their life they are wanting to be counted.

Good on em. We won't really change the world but damn it stand up and be counted. Something..however small may change.

YOU ARE WRONG...CHANGE DID HAPPEN in the 60's or because of the 60's. Sexuality changed. Race and equality did change. It matters. I will hope to find my convictions and join Canucks at Bay & King on Oct. 15 to join the world protest about our economy and the 99%. It may be just an illusion but worth trying.

[darkeyes]

I know change happened Tenni.. I see it all around me..an no not all was for the bad.. in many ways our societies are more tolerant and accepting than they were back then I do not deny that for one moment..and yet they are more selfish, greedy, materialistic, thoughtless, and passive at the same time.. the world is a far less stable and more dangerous place and our environment is being more polluted and more plundered every day, all in the name of corporate greed..

..that not all agreed with the anti Vietnam/anti war movement and the hippies of the day is all too true.. I am not stupid and do read my social history.. that some used both movements for their own purposes while kidding on they believed in them is also undeniable.. but as you quite rightly point out not all did..some believed and still believe... but for all that their was a hope for a better future which never materialised.. one where people treated their peers better, and cared more than they turned out to do not only for their immediate neighbour but for the world.. where suspicion and hatred of the system as it was became acknowledgement and acceptance that they could not beat it and had better join it pdq and they brought it to where it is now.. they didnt lose the debate back then.. they surrendered it.. things got tough and they backed off and conformed.. and so by their acquiescence led us to where we are today.. that some of that generation disagreed with the hippy and anti war movements and the promise they held.. it exonerates them not one bit.. they did their bit in turning our society and our world into mush and they have to hold their hands up and accept their responsibility..

I do agree with one thing for sure.. keep organised political parties away from it like grim death... because that will mean the high jacking of anything good which may come out of it.. if there must be a political movement to come out of it, it has to develop organically from the 99ers themselves and become a real achallenge and alternative to the existing political order... Obama is already making disconcerting mutterings that may move the Democratic party to try and make a heist for moral leadership.. and the same will happen in other countries as political parties jostle for their share of the action.. and if this movement is to make any headway and retain any credibility that has to be resisted.. it is an opportunity for them.. but by resisting their opportunism and blocking their opportunity, a proper movement towards making real change and humanising our political, social and economic systems can arise and has to arise for if it doesnt, it will be only a matter of time before what happened in the past recurs and then it is down to us to accept our responsibility for failure and and as is more than likely, succumbing to the the way things are in the much the same way as did our parents 40 years ago..

[tenni]

Actually, darkeyes, I am not convinced that you can see the change from 40 years ago. It was there for most if not all of your life. You may be able to see what is there but not the change itself. You can see the change from 911 or Steve Job influence on the world easier.

"more selfish, greedy, materialistic, thoughtless, and passive at the same time."

I'm not sure that it is more selfish and greedy. Greed and selfishness existed but so did caring for your neighbours pre 1960 but maybe that caring was false or genuine..dunno?. That makes it less caring today in some respects but greed was always there. Just as some spoke about communal living and sharing there were many increasing their wealth and building barriers to protect themselves. The War Machine existed and yes it has become even bigger and more gluttonous for funds.

"they didn't lose the debate back then.. they surrendered it.. things got tough and they backed off and conformed"

Again, I'm not convinced that those who truly believed surrendered. With every revolution comes instablity. After every revolution, there comes a calming in the society because a society can not continue in instability. There have been upheavals and challenges but not until 911 did the world experience such a shattering international Western event. The Tea Party stuff has been more of a US centred incident. This emerging movement may or may not have more international Western impact along with places like Greece.

The power players will more than not attempt to smooth things over to pacify. Get the masses back to a numb sleeping perspective. The loss of homes is not as great in my country as the US ...probably similar to Britain? The jobs and loss of this middle class dream may be a perkier incident. This may all blow over by the snowfall is the comment in Canada by the neo cons. With places like Facebook, people do not really need to make a physical presence for weeks and weeks without a pause. The Civil Rights movement didn't go on with constant marches month after month. The War protests were similar that they didn't happen in the bitter snowy cold days.

However, I have experienced a national protest where it just died out last year after the first national protest in the cold. The government didn't have to do anything but wait. They were re elected even though they did some very undemocratic things. They just lied and used a lot of PR ads to deceive the dumb masses.

I understand the concern about any political party co opting this movement for its own reasons but they are the ones who can change the laws. In this movement, it aspires to a consensual approach and from my experience that is very difficult...but I like it. Power players will eventually come forward as leaders and structure may co opt it.

[tenni]

From my leftist friends on Facebook chatter this afternoon....a quote.

US Congressman Peter King had this to say about Occupy Wall Street Movement, "We have to be careful not to allow this to get any legitimacy", he warned. "I'm taking this seriously in that I'm old eough to remember what happened in the 1960s when the left wing took to the streets and somehow the media glorified them and it ended up shaping policy", he said. We can't allow that to happen".


then a comment. "You heard him don't quit".

[void()]

Democrats, Republicans, Left, Right have all come too late and are found wanting. None of these will control the movement. It is clear this is not about political, religious, social class any longer. These entities continually fail people or cause far too much strife in creating solutions. No more labels, no more differences, only humanity. Humanity is We the People, we are the 99%.

[keefer201]

Go to www.drudgereport.com and you'll get all you need.

[DuckiesDarling]

Democrats, Republicans, Left, Right have all come too late and are found wanting. None of these will control the movement. It is clear this is not about political, religious, social class any longer. These entities continually fail people or cause far too much strife in creating solutions. No more labels, no more differences, only humanity. Humanity is We the People, we are the 99%.

I have to agree with this post. The protests finally hit Louisville. What I remember most was some young kid saying he doesn't want corporations to run America. I'm thinking to myself... if corporations ran America we'd be in better shape right now. Corporations fire managers when they are ineffective, we have to wait for elections and pray the next one isn't worse.

[darkeyes]

I have to agree with this post. The protests finally hit Louisville. What I remember most was some young kid saying he doesn't want corporations to run America. I'm thinking to myself... if corporations ran America we'd be in better shape right now. Corporations fire managers when they are ineffective, we have to wait for elections and pray the next one isn't worse.

ahhh Darlin' darlin'.. an we havta ask ourselves.. just wy are we in the mess we are in now? Just wot r banks and financial institutions? Yea.. they can fire their managers.. bit late wen the planet's in economic meltdown cos they wer greedy incompetent arseholes.. and a tadge pointless when they appoint more of the same to succeed the them...and I wont go in to the civil liberties and social aspects of such a scenario as you suggest..

[Diva667]

I have to agree with this post. The protests finally hit Louisville. What I remember most was some young kid saying he doesn't want corporations to run America. I'm thinking to myself... if corporations ran America we'd be in better shape right now. Corporations fire managers when they are ineffective, we have to wait for elections and pray the next one isn't worse.

They fire middle management when they are incompetent, but CEO's just get bonuses...

[jamieknyc]

Let me correct some misconceptions about my neighbors down in Zuccotti Park:

The demonstrations are completely peaceful. The regulars in the protest have adhered to this. During the week the protest has generally gone on without incident, but on weekends they get wannabes coming down to Zuccotti Park itching to fight the cops. Since last week's arrest, the protestors have taken steps to keep out troublemakers, in cooperation with the NYPD.

Drugs and alcohol are banned in the camp. They have also kicked out obvious bigots. A protestor-organized security force exists to enforce order.

The protestors are not working for Obama or Pelosi (whom they regard as being just as much in bed with Wall Street as the Republicans, and rightly so) and are not associated with any other outside political organization.

Anyone is free to go to the protest camp as much as they like. Stories that are going around about people being spat on for wearing ties are just rumors.

The NYPD has let them be so long as they don't block the street or the sidewalk passing the park. The protestors have cooperated. Nor are the police there in overwhelming or intimidating numbers. Generally there are about twenty or so officers stationed around the area, and they have stayed on the sidelines and kept out of the park.

[12voltman59]

I am glad that this "protest" has taken place and also hope that from this--it might become the nucleus of a more broad scale "mass movement" much like the Civil Rights Movement became.

We do see related sorts of rallies now taking place all over the country---I was busy this past weekend so I didn't get to attend the ones held in my local area, but hopefully there will be more of them to come and I can and will take part in future ones.

Thanks to Diva for posting up the points that make up "The Declaration" created by the loosely knit Occupy Wall Street organizers.

I know that the right wing media like FOX is totally dissing this thing as either it being "unfocused" and things of that nature and of course--they clearly diss the organizers are being "hippie college kids" or anarchists or simply "a mob"-----such descriptions might have had some slight kernels of truth initially but that is not true now with unions coming on board as well as many others from the "progressive/liberal" universe. (But then again--according to the right wing talk meisters like Fat Man Limbaugh and Adam's Apple Ann Coulter, if you are a liberal type--then you aren't a good and real American----and are some sort of sick, perverted socialist/communist, godless maniac or something of that sort)

It is sort of ironic in a way that the genesis of both the Tea Party and the Occupy Wall Street "movement" come from the same place---frustration that people do fundamentally get it that government and other aspects of our society are now pretty well fucked up and both represent (or did in the case of the "tea party" but I don't think does now) that people want to see some real change take place.

The Tea Party has, I think its clear, devolved from being all about the economy and jobs, government overreaching and such----now it is really a very finely filtered and concentrated form of the age old "cultural wars" crowd because the only thing I have seen from those elected under the "tea party" banner is do things like try to further limit abortions and even access to family planning and contraceptives, would like to turn back "Don't Ask Don't Tell" in the military, ban gay marriage, bust the unions, make it harder to vote and the rest of the huge laundry list that the far fringe right has fought for for decades.

The Tea Party really is in the main made up of those who are variably racist, xenophobic, homophobic etc. I happened upon a small Tea Party rally back in the summer of 2010 in Columbus, Ohio not far from the state capital. I parked my car and walked to the place they had gathered---I was horrified at many of the signs that people had---with many of them portraying Barack Obama in a very nasty way--such as being part monkey and part Hitler, some of them very clearly said things like "we gotta get rid of the (The Dreaded N Word) as president" and things of that nature. I know that was just one such rally in one place--but from what I have seen reported by other people who either planned to or happened upon such rallies---have video and still pics posted on the web that show this is actually pretty common for tea party rallies.

I know there are such rhetoric excesses that take place on both sides---but I dare say and hope that if the Occupy Wall Street protest does become a bonifide movement--it will be much more inclusive than what the Tea Party tends to be--which is for the most part---tends to skew to an older, mostly white demographic.

I do hope that the "Occupy Wall Street" protests leads to a major mass movement that can actually get the powers that be to realize----"We are mad as hell and we are not going to take it anymore"--meaning that we are tired of there being no jobs, that higher education is once again only going to be the province of the very wealthy or a few of the brightest students from the less well off, the ever widening gap between those at the top of the economic pile and the rest of us--things like that---and more than they just know that we are pissed off---either they had better do things to rectify the situation or "We The People" will do it and they may not like the consequences of that. (Like turn them SOMABITCHES into Prison Bitches!!!!)

I do have one question for Jaime----what are they doing for restroom facilities down at the "protest site"??? Did they set up a bank of porta Johnnies or what???

[12voltman59]

If there would be a theme song for the "Occupy Wall Street" protests---it could be this song by James McMurtry---"We Can't Make It Here."


This song is some REAL COUNTRY MUSIC---it falls under the heading of Americana or Outlaw Country music---not that faux Nashville popized stuff they call "country" these days and you won't hear this song on nearly any commercial country radio station since it doesn't waive the flag and say that America is just perfect and all.

By the way--if the last name sounds familiar---James' dad is the well known writer Larry McMurtry who wrote stories like "Lonesome Dove."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbWRfBZY-ng