What religion was,,,

[goldenfinger]

Adam and Eve brought up in by GOD??

[pepperjack]

Adam and Eve brought up in by GOD??

looks to me like you created confusion Goldenfinger.

[DuckiesDarling]

Adam and Eve brought up in by GOD??

According to the Bible, then yes God created Adam and then Eve. But I'm not sure where you are going with this theorectical thread.

[void()]

What about Lilith?

According to some of the excluded Bible parts she came after Adam, She liked it on top. But apparently God wanted a male dominate following.

What about 'the other people'?

Cain is said to have gone into the land of Nod and there dwell amongst other people, who had been there all along.

There are many such contradictions and curiosities, I could expound upon but will not. Christianity is not for me nor me for it. Some of these type of questions contribute to why the case is such. One which really sinks in good is the one about omnipotence.

If God is all powerful, knowing and and all around perfect being, why does she/he/it need us?

The best response so far has been it expresses love through us. But that response can be countered by our ongoing love of war. "Gee, expressing love, really?"

And I don't buy the whole notion of freewill either. God creates you, knows you 100%, knows what you'll choose. Where is that freewill, then?

Bah. Excuse me, dallied too long here. No offense intended but merely putting forward some morsels for thought, maybe conversation.

[goldenfinger]

According to the Bible, then yes God created Adam and then Eve. But I'm not sure where you are going with this theorectical thread.

Yes, but what religion did he install in their heads as there were only two people on earth then, what ever it was, it must have been the only true religion,what was it??? If god didn't tell them, the only true children of god,why would he tell others 1000's of years later.:bigrin::bigrin:

[elian]

Between this..

http://www.perceivingreality.com

..and this..

http://www.amazon.com/Gnostic-Gospels-Elaine-Pagels/dp/0679724532/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1316349459&sr=1-1

..and this..

http://www.amazon.com/Gospel-According-Jesus-Translation-Unbelievers/dp/0060923210/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1316349498&sr=1-3

..and this..

http://www.amazon.com/New-Christianity-World-Traditional-Faith/dp/B002KE48FC/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1316349536&sr=1-1

..and this..

http://www.amazon.com/Lovingkindness-Revolutionary-Happiness-Shambhala-Classics/dp/157062903X

..somewhere I am seeing that LOVE has a lot to do with it because deep spiritual love is the one force that can transcend difference..it gets us to open the door when we don't want to.

In answer to void's question, there was a rabbi who after losing his young son in an automobile accident came to the conclusion that God could either be "all-loving' or "all powerful" but not both..

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124582959

Personally, I choose to believe that it's all loving - while I may be in pain at times there has always been a still, soft voice calling me on..urging me to continue..apologizing for the weather (if THAT doesn't tell you that God isn't all powerful I don't know what will).

I don't claim to know all the answers, and I don't mean to insult anyone's faith or intelligence but these resources have made a huge impact on me - and it all started when questioning my sexuality made me look outside the box..

[elian]

Yes, but what religion did he install in their heads as there were only two people on earth then, what ever it was, it must have been the only true religion,what was it??? If god didn't tell them, the only true children of god,why would he tell others 1000's of years later.:bigrin::bigrin:

They talked to God directly goldenfinger, they didn't NEED an institutionalized religion..but there are other good reasons to go to church..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isiVn2Dnv78

Religion WAS a lot more inclusive - it was only in "recent" history that it became lopsided.. if you ever get a chance to watch the video below..it is worth watching..

http://www.clpearson.com/mother_wove_morning.htm
http://www.amazon.com/Mother-Wove-Morning-One-Woman-Play/dp/1562363077

[Gearbox]

I find the story of Adam&Eve fascinating!!:male::female:

if you view it as an explanation as to how a pure singular consciousness developed ego's, it makes much more sense.:)
'The Tree Of Knowledge' maybe the imagined possibilities that couldn't be realised by a pure explorer. Hence the serpent that yearned for a further separation of the :male: & :female: ego's from the pure higher consciousness.
Much like temptation in our minds: "I know I shouldn't do it! But it would be so good to experience it.".:rolleyes:

[elian]

When you put it that way gearbox .. our spiritual ancestors found the urge to know and the sensation of direct experience too irresistible to pass up.. For as much talking up I do of compassionate loving kindness it is true that without the dark we would not be able to recognize and appreciate the light.

I've always found it peculiar that there is such a divide between science and faith - I mean if you take Bible stories LITERALLY that would mean that when "God" put Adam to sleep and took out one of his ribs to make Eve "he" must have been using what we now know of as "genetic engineering".

Similarly the only "Pillar of Salt" I have heard of or seen photos of has been from the atomic testing in the Nevada/New Mexico Desert. Must say something peculiar about OUR culture that people used to put on sunglasses and take a picnic lunch to watch the blast..

[Gearbox]

For as much talking up I do of compassionate loving kindness it is true that without the dark we would not be able to recognize and appreciate the light.
I go round in circles chasing my tail over that one.:bigrin:

But science is only the exploration and examination of THIS world in a practical sense. Big difference between what qualifies as 'real' in science and 'real' in faith & philosophy etc etc.
In consciousness, we explore as individuals with various tunings of our only tool (the mind).
In science we use the regulation specific tool for each task. The mind, not being one of them, excluding theory which is subject only to acceptability.
Hence The Paranormal.:rolleyes:

No matter how many people claim that they've seen a ghost, UFO, Alien, Jesus, Loch Ness Monster, or experienced NDE's, Astral Travel, Precognition, Telepathy, Psychokinesis, Psychometry, Levitation etc etc etc It is NOT 'real' unless it can be reproduced on demand in a lab (become practical).:eek:
So that's how science struggles with religion/beliefs. (See threads about Bisexuality existing too.:bigrin:).

I've read about atomic weapons being used way before they were 'invented'. Also aerial maps, flying machines, compasses, batteries etc etc. It does make you wonder if there's anything original these days. Maybe we access knowledge when we think we create it?;)

[Jobelorocks]

Well most Catholics, like me, believe that the story of Adam and Eve is just meant as a teaching tool about things like the nature of man. It isn't meant to be taken literally. Actually, most Catholics believe in evolution. But some Christians believe in a literal translation of that story. Many of the Old Testament stories are meant to teach morals and such and aren't a real history lesson.

[elian]

I go round in circles chasing my tail over that one.:bigrin:

But science is only the exploration and examination of THIS world in a practical sense. Big difference between what qualifies as 'real' in science and 'real' in faith & philosophy etc etc.
In consciousness, we explore as individuals with various tunings of our only tool (the mind).
In science we use the regulation specific tool for each task. The mind, not being one of them, excluding theory which is subject only to acceptability.
Hence The Paranormal.:rolleyes:


This lady would be fun to talk to at a party:

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/faithandreason/watch_atwood.html

What is "real"? What is "true"? ..it is all in how we see things in the world.. Some people prefer their faith to be tangible - they can touch a rock, they can see it in an electron microscope, they insert A into a box and B comes out the other end - they want to know why - that's not bad.

The world is happy to oblige them...to a point. Once you start realizing that at the quantum level there are all sorts of weird possibilities then our well known laws start to break down.

I have had so many strange and peculiar direct experiences that I choose to believe that there is SOMETHING out there we can't quite put our finger on..I don't know exactly what it is.

I don't have a problem with people who have spiritual belief in divine power, nor do I have animosity against folks with a scientific mind - as long as personal responsibility and compassion are also a part of their belief.

Honorable Mention: http://www.pbs.org/moyers/faithandreason/watch_winterson.html (she is funny)

[Annika L]

Yes, but what religion did he install in their heads as there were only two people on earth then, what ever it was, it must have been the only true religion,what was it??? If god didn't tell them, the only true children of god,why would he tell others 1000's of years later.:bigrin::bigrin:

Specifically, I believe it was nothing more than the religion of "I created you, and you can do anything you like as long as you don't eat of the fruit of this tree." Times were simpler then. (And either pigs hadn't been invented yet, or there was no temptation to eat them without apples. :tong:)

But yeah, I agree that the story is meant more as a parable than as history. Does this really keep you up at night, or are you trying to sow seeds of destruction by floating a theoretical religious thread?

[jamieknyc]

Specifically, I believe it was nothing more than the religion of "I created you, and you can do anything you like as long as you don't eat of the fruit of this tree." Times were simpler then. (And either pigs hadn't been invented yet, or there was no temptation to eat them without apples. :tong:)

But yeah, I agree that the story is meant more as a parable than as history. Does this really keep you up at night, or are you trying to sow seeds of destruction by floating a theoretical religious thread?

Annika, you must have been goofing off in Sunday school. Pigs did not become forbidden until Mount Sinai, centuries later.

[darkeyes]

Bacon... mmmmmmm.. orgasmic... some daft bugga forbade pig munchin? Not in my house they didnt...;)

[Annika L]

Bacon... mmmmmmm.. orgasmic... some daft bugga forbade pig munchin? Not in my house they didnt...;)

This may well sound disgusting (it did to me when I first heard of it), but this summer at the beach I tried chocolate covered bacon. Don't ask what possessed me to try it...ask rather what possessed anyone to *sell* it. For my part it was a moment of weakness for two of my favorite addictions at once.

Anyway, it was a tentative sale: four of us split one piece. The only way I can describe it is "disgustingly delicious". The kind of enjoyment that leaves one feeling sullied...but not particularly regretful.

That said, I'm glad I did it, I highly recommend the experience, and I hope I never do it again. :tong:

[elian]

Don't feel bad Annika, I had a deep fried candy bar at the fair one year - it was good - I figure one every few years can't hurt THAT much right?

Apparently there is even a chef someplace that sells deep fried pounds of butter...now that's just wrong..

[goldenfinger]

But yeah, I agree that the story is meant more as a parable than as history. Does this really keep you up at night, or are you trying to sow seeds of destruction by floating a theoretical religious thread?

Just want the TRUTH,how can I argue with other people if I don't have the TRUTH. Ofcause, I could just ask FRED PHELP or JW's GB, they both know the truth,but not too many people believe them, but they have the right to believe they are the only people GOD talks to.

[elian]

People just trying to make sense of the world man, some of it has done more harm than good but some of it has also inspired good. Believe what you want, but do make sure you have a) personal responsibility and b) compassion.

It has been my experience that in a weird twisted sort of way Fred Phelps actually ends up being a catalyst for GOOD in the community. The few times we have been picketed here it was their 5 or 6 people to our 100-200 people who felt motivated to stand up for unity, diversity, LGBT rights..

BTW, his "church" isn't really out to convert anyone, by his philosophy the louder you scream the more righteous you are in the eyes of God..I feel that such hatred and self righteousness is blasphemous and very much contrary to the heart of what the great prophets of our faiths all taught.. Jesus for example would have probably said that he should put his neighbor FIRST before himself..

MLK wanted to work hard to eliminate economic disparity because he probably knew that people would be resentful of inequity. When he reminded people of the commandment to "Love thy Neighbor" he was actually being very practical. People with love in their heart are more likely to forgive and less quick to anger, he wanted people to wish their neighbor success - a successful neighbor will not have to resort to stealing just to survive.. living with compassion is actually in our best self interest.

[goldenfinger]

I was looking for an simple answer,something without peoples interference.Is that possible???

[void()]

Just want the TRUTH,how can I argue with other people if I don't have the TRUTH.

Truth is a subjective creature which inherently is tainted by human beings, no matter how much one tries sanitizing it. From my humble view Truth may exist but it is doubtful anyone may own or know it. Truth would not need defending nor debating. it would just be and all would know it for Truth.


I was looking for an simple answer,something without peoples interference.Is that possible???

I have attempted granting a simple answer above. You may or may not appreciate it but at least I tried.

To further expound and simplify, we do not know what religion God installed in the first couple. We were not there, nor did we give God an operating system, nay did God ask us either. Most believe it was simply, "I AM GOD, Worship me." Beyond that, the general thought is no religion as such was needed.

I apologize for a sarcastic reply earlier. I am a soft Atheist whom leans toward Taoist and Hermetic teachings. Sometimes, I am best served not responding. But I am human and make mistakes.

[elian]

I was looking for an simple answer,something without peoples interference.Is that possible???

Yes, absolutely - many millions of people live their lives every day through direct experience and form their own value system based on that rather than looking for answers from other people..

There will be interference from at least one person though, yourself..everything we "see" in this world is filtered by the sum of our experiences. Will you see what is really there, or what you think you thought you saw? Be careful not to jump to conclusions, especially where people are concerned..if we all did THAT then maybe the world WOULD be a better place.

I prefer to at least try to listen to what other people say, I don't have to agree with everything they say but maybe I can learn from the wisdom of their experience.

Some people are never satisfied with second hand knowledge and that is fine - the world accommodates both and everything in between really. The early Gnostic Christians were very much into the idea that people should strive to gain direct knowledge and "know" God independently through that knowledge - but that is way more modern than "Adam and Eve".

There is something healing for people about telling their own part of the story and other people listening - we're so damn busy over here that people don't know which end is up sometimes. There are a lot of hurting people who just need someone to listen..not offer advice even but just listen.

[goldenfinger]

Truth is a subjective creature which inherently is tainted by human beings, no matter how much one tries sanitizing it. From my humble view Truth may exist but it is doubtful anyone may own or know it. Truth would not need defending nor debating. it would just be and all would know it for Truth.



I have attempted granting a simple answer above. You may or may not appreciate it but at least I tried.

To further expound and simplify, we do not know what religion God installed in the first couple. We were not there, nor did we give God an operating system, nay did God ask us either. Most believe it was simply, "I AM GOD, Worship me." Beyond that, the general thought is no religion as such was needed.

I apologize for a sarcastic reply earlier. I am a soft Atheist whom leans toward Taoist and Hermetic teachings. Sometimes, I am best served not responding. But I am human and make mistakes.

I'm an atheist myself,but have befriended an EX JW about a year ago, and have had a lot of fun trying to re-program him.He has been out of JW since 1992, but still cling to the bible about the whole world only being 6000 years old, and he claim that Adam and Eve was JW, in fact, he said all religious people are JW. Doesn't matter how screwed up they are and how badly they have been treated by JW, they still defend them and their belief.
So, Adam and Eve had no religion, so why should we???:eek:

[benbidwell]

Religion is mans response to revelation. one should be very careful where they get their revelation. If it is true or false. Man was created to have a spiritual relationship with their maker, mans fall was trying to rob God of His Glory, There is only one true God. Man cannot be God he can only be a reflection of God in Jesus Christ.

[void()]

Religion is mans response to revelation. one should be very careful where they get their revelation. If it is true or false. Man was created to have a spiritual relationship with their maker, mans fall was trying to rob God of His Glory, There is only one true God. Man cannot be God he can only be a reflection of God in Jesus Christ.

The word revelation infers a revealing of something. Some of us go the distance in studying. This leads to an understanding of there not being much left to be revealed. Not sure of others and only speaking for self, much has been revealed and digested without any deity. Can admit there is probably much more to be revealed. Care to move the veil for me?

And by the by, I am hard pressed to believe an actual Jesus existed. The main reason I do not believe in his existence is that Romans were highly retentive about making records. No actual records of Jesus' trail have been found to exist, and something on that level ( he was accused of being there to overthrow the aristocracy), would in my opinion have merited quite more than a surplus of documents for public display.

"Hey, this Jesus guy wants to kill the wealthy ruling class!" ,says one priest in the markets.

"We'll make an example of him by public trail and crucifixion!" ,says the Republic's guardsman.

Which by the way crucifixion was not preformed as the Bible suggests. The poles were simply that, no cross beams. The prisoners were garroted from behind the pole via twine twisted. Likely such more than oft involved decapitations than broken legs.

I read a great deal, Bible, concordances, Torah and other various religious doctrines and works inclusive. Of course, I also read secular texts as well. No, I'm not the devil quoting scripture. I am just one who read something which defied comprehension and asked questions. Found some answers. Some were satisfactory, some were not. So, go ahead and slide Isis' veil aside if you can, reveal for me.

[jamieknyc]

The earliest reference to Jesus in non-Christian sources is in Tacitus, who wrote about seventy years after Jesus' death.

Jesus probably was a real person, since both Christian and non-Christian sources who lived not that long after his time regarded him as being a real person. Some future age will probably say that George washington was a mythical person.

[benbidwell]

Thank you for that tread Jamie, Thank you void dweller for your response and will try to answer further. God is the revealer of all Truth, About Himself so what ones studies must be tested by ultimate Divine truth not by books of men or logic or ism s. He reveals Himself in many ways we cannot put God in a box but for sure He has given us His Holy word and you are correct we are to study it not just read it. We are sharing here Godly Truth only one source-God Himself. So are revelation will be are response (religion). And we know there are many false religions out there with false revelation so test what you believe. IT is written that 500 people saw Jesus after resurrecting from the grave, and many historical books also refer to the person-Jesus. Thank You Ben

[tenni]

"And we know there are many false religions out there with false revelation so test what you believe."

For people who chose to believe in one religion, I think that it is best to tone down the dogmatic rhetoric about false religions or one religion being the "right" religion in a democratic secular society. For those that live in societies that impose one state religion, you have my sympathy. Spirituality is not bound by one religion or any specific religion. It is best to look at the essence of various religions to find a path to enlightenment.

[mikey3000]

And lets not forget the difference between religion and spirituality. For me religion is your outward expression of your personal beliefs, that which others can label you by. Spirituality is your personal relationship between you and God. God doesn't care what religion you are, just that you are spiritual with him (or her-which ever you believe).

[elian]

We all learn in different ways. There are some people who get concerned with other people "not knowing" about God but we are all subject to the same laws of nature..there is no "escaping" anything in this world..we all rely on each other. We are here to do what we are here to do and there's no stopping that..you can try to delay it but not likely to happen.

I can certainly understand about some folks insistence that "Man" is not the center of universe - Why just today I was driving down the highway and met some people who must've thought with much certainty that the universe revolved around them..

It would be a mistake to say that people who don't believe in God are less moral, that they need to be "fixed" - in much the same way that it would be a mistake to say that a gay person is less moral and needs to be "fixed". All people are a part of creation, worthy of love and respect and simply put - since we don't live in a vacuum you get what you give.

I don't generally have a problem with individuals, it's institutions that bother me and institutional responses that have done a lot of harm. However, sometimes the institutions have actually done good, in feudal days the Church was often the only mediator between a landowner and the peasants who worked the land.. who ELSE would the King listen to, except for GOD?

Also used to be, when wheels were made of wood that church was THE social and spiritual gathering place. it helped to build a sense of community. You KNEW when a family was doing well, or needed a helping hand because you SAW them. Every once in a while you hear about someone who mistakenly thinks that government might make a good surrogate for getting to know your neighbors and participating in local community..usually these stories don't turn out well.

Take an hour out of your week and "Think Different" - think less about "me" and more about "we" .. in a reverent way - that's not a bad thing.

There are places you can go that don't look down on free will - that's why I chose the church I go to - they DON'T say "What you believe is wrong, but don't worry - we'll fix you." But they DO challenge you to be the best person you can be spiritually.. For a church that has members that are Christians, Atheists, Agnostics, Skeptics, Humanists, Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists and Pagans to come together and worship with a sense of love and shared community is something very special to me. I could never figure out why there is so much hatred and division over religion if we are all loved and provided for.

How does the miraculous feat of so many people worshiping under one roof happen you ask? Simple, We value wisdom, we value diversity, we recognize that each of us has our own experiences in life. Short of a few basic principles we draw religious inspiration from MANY sources - the Bible, the Koran, the Torah, poems, Native American prayers, quotes from humanist sources - Everyone is entitled to their own belief, but we do talk, we do our best to listen, we do challenge one another to view things differently by relating our different experiences... However it is always done with love and in the spirit of trying to figure out "the truth" - whatever that is..

[ivanthemonkey]

What about Lilith?

According to some of the excluded Bible parts she came after Adam, She liked it on top. But apparently God wanted a male dominate following.

Lilith isn't canon, and it is one of those writings that would be like using the Tale of Two cities to teach the history of the french revolution.

As for where Cain got his wife from, it's no contradiction, Adam lived for hundreds of years and had a multitude of children, so Cain likely married his Sister.

Adam and Eve being created as perfect beings would not have had any genetic issues, so their offspring could theoretically breed with no issue. They didn't have the genetic flaws that would make incest an issue.

The Bible also doesn't speak of what Cain and Able's exact age was at the time, but it is clear that they are fully grown men, Able having established a farm and Cain having flocks of cattle, given the age they were purported to live, they were likely already over one hundred and had numerous brothers and sisters, especially as there was never a Hebrew law limiting a man to a single wife.

Lilith, if she even existed, would have likely been a sister or a neice.

[ivanthemonkey]

Yes, but what religion did he install in their heads as there were only two people on earth then, what ever it was, it must have been the only true religion,what was it??? If god didn't tell them, the only true children of god,why would he tell others 1000's of years later.:bigrin::bigrin:

?

God used to talk dirrectly to Adam before he was exiled from the garden. What religion did Adam have? Why it tells you in the Bible, Man was to have in Dominance all the creatures of the world and to go forth and mutliply.

Religion has a purpose, once the purpose is fulfilled, the religion goes by the board, so to speak. However the general purpose of a religion is for man to communicate with their God, in that aspect Adam didn't need a religion since God talked directly to him, niether did Cain and Able really need a religion since God communicated dirrectly to both of them as well.

Noah's religion was that the world had become to wicked, and he was to save the Human race by building an ark so that they could repopulate te world once God's wrath at the wicked humans was over with.

Abraham's religion was his promise from God that he would have a son who would found a nation who would live in the land of Isreal, in the meantime Abraham was to wonder the lands where his heirs would build that nation.

Moses religion was to Lead his people (decended from Abraham) from Slavery to the "Promised Land"

The Jewish religion was a combination of their laws and tradition as well as the Symbolic references to the coming Mesiah and his purpose.

The Christian religion purports itself as the fulfillment of Jewish religion.

Each of these religions build on the previous.

[darkeyes]

What about Lilith?

....


And I don't buy the whole notion of freewill either. God creates you, knows you 100%, knows what you'll choose. Where is that freewill, then?



What bout Lilith? Have known only 1 person called Lilith..she reckoned God gave 'er a raw deal... an swizzed 'er out of happiness... but she wos pretty, dead sexy and fun2 b wiv.,.. but neurotic an ver angry at the world..and God.. daft I used 2 say since God is a figment of our imagination...

An free will Voidie? Everything Ive done and said were always going to be done and said.. it was my kismet.. does that mean I have or have not free will? It was always going to happen always be said... and everything I do and say will be said and done.. can I change it? No. I cannot. Any more trhan I can change the past. That too is my kismet... is that free will? Interesting question isnt it? What will be will be.. as what was was... what was cannot be changed and what will be is going to happen and we have no say in it and cannot change it.. free will? Hmmmm...somehow there are huge questionmarks on that...;)

[elian]

Speaking of institutions, I am very glad to learn today that they repealed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell". I just hope it doesn't come up in lunch conversation today at work, I might have to say something people don't really want to hear..

Someone once asked me what *I* thought about gays serving in the military and I said flat out, "They already are" - just that now the guys will really have to think twice about snapping a towel on somebody's behind in the showers...

[jamieknyc]

Lilith isn't canon, and it is one of those writings that would be like using the Tale of Two cities to teach the history of the french revolution.


Lilith, if she even existed, would have likely been a sister or a neice.

Lilith was not a person, but a demon in Babylonian mythology who caused the death of newborn babies.

[ivanthemonkey]

And by the by, I am hard pressed to believe an actual Jesus existed. The main reason I do not believe in his existence is that Romans were highly retentive about making records. No actual records of Jesus' trail have been found to exist, and something on that level ( he was accused of being there to overthrow the aristocracy), would in my opinion have merited quite more than a surplus of documents for public display.

While Romans kept records, it is inconceivable that All of their records would still exist, especially as there was a large scale relovution against the Romans in that province,at the beginning of which the Romans were forced to a hurried retreat and the end result of which was the destruction of Jeruslem.

It simply is not a plausible arguement that those records could have survived.

Additionally Josephus, the Roman Historian and former Jewish General, mentions the followers of jesus, the so called Christ, only some 30ish years after his death when documenting the jewish rebelion.

This combined with the numerous accounts of his life and teachings show he was a real person (son of god or ordinary man) His teachings were unique at the time, even revolutionary, so if they didn't come from Jesus then they would have come from someone else. To claim that Jesus didn't exist without any evidence of an alternate source has little merit.

I would also point out the huge impact Jesus had on our culture, Language and politics, no other single person has had that much influence over history, which again is evidence that he existed.


Which by the way crucifixion was not preformed as the Bible suggests. The poles were simply that, no cross beams. The prisoners were garroted from behind the pole via twine twisted. Likely such more than oft involved decapitations than broken legs.

The cross was borrowed from other religions that christianity absorbed as it spread, likely the greek fertility symbol which often adorned places of worhip. It's worship and use by christians didn't exist in the bible (in fact it would have been opposed as idol worship)

The biblical account of the cross describes a crusification on an upright stake, not a cross, as Jesus would have died much sooner and in a different manner were his arms stretched out in the manner of a cross (which was rarely used)

Note that the Romans checked to see if Jesus was dead (something that would not be needed on a cross as the prisoner dies in a short period hanged that way) Jesus did die before they took him down, which is significant because the bible writers made a point that the body was whole. Normally if any prisoner is still alive, which was common, the finish them off by breaking the legs or decapitation. Again such a step is not needed with a cross.

Also the description of Jesus's life place him in Roman occupied Isreal, before the destruction of Jeruslem and the Temple, which is accurately described. A significance that would likely have been lost by writers in a later era.

[locotom]

I read a statement years ago that read, religion was formed when the first con man met the first sucker, the best explanation Ive ever heard

[jamieknyc]

While Romans kept records, it is inconceivable that All of their records would still exist, especially as there was a large scale relovution against the Romans in that province,at the beginning of which the Romans were forced to a hurried retreat and the end result of which was the destruction of Jeruslem.

It simply is not a plausible arguement that those records could have survived.

Additionally Josephus, the Roman Historian and former Jewish General, mentions the followers of jesus, the so called Christ, only some 30ish years after his death when documenting the jewish rebelion.



Most scholars consider that Josephus quote to be a medieval forgery

[void()]

"It simply is not a plausible arguement that those records could have survived."

I concur with you on that. I further point out though, it is also plausible that a state or case of no records surviving is just as implausible. There would have been records, some, even one would have survived. You can not ask me to believe none did, that all such records just mysteriously and conveniently vanished owing to whatever excuse. This is known as a double blind standard and it is not a good logical argument.

"God's will made the records vanish, have faith."

"um, yeah sure ..."


"The biblical account of the cross describes a crusification on an upright stake, not a cross, as Jesus would have died much sooner and in a different manner were his arms stretched out in the manner of a cross (which was rarely used) The cross was borrowed from other religions that christianity absorbed as it spread, likely the greek fertility symbol which often adorned places of worhip. It's worship and use by christians didn't exist in the bible (in fact it would have been opposed as idol worship)"

Gee, seems that was basically what I was saying. Actually, the Bible depicts a cross, but I was saying it was likely just an upright stake/pole. And from my studies the cross is used in many Sol or sun based religions. Christianity absorbed a great deal of them, especially considering the whole writ of The Father, The Son, The Holy Ghost. Similar was practice in Egypt and further back into Sumeria, Babylon. The cross is a reference from astrological influences, the Southern Cross constellation often pointing toward the Sun. There are other meanings as well throughout history the Jews inferring from the Tree of Life (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Tree_of_life_%28Kabbalah%29). But yes, early Christians would have likely viewed it as idolatry.

[jamieknyc]

"It simply is not a plausible arguement that those records could have survived."

I concur with you on that. I further point out though, it is also plausible that a state or case of no records surviving is just as implausible. There would have been records, some, even one would have survived. You can not ask me to believe none did, that all such records just mysteriously and conveniently vanished owing to whatever excuse. This is known as a double blind standard and it is not a good logical argument.

"God's will made the records vanish, have faith."

"um, yeah sure ..."

.
Not so: in his own lifetime Jesus was an obscure preacher, and it was centuries later when he became an important figure, so the probability is very much against any record being preserved by the Romans at the time.

[Annika L]

For the record, I have a hard time believing this thread wasn't posted primarily to cause discord. :tongue:

[void()]

Discord? Here? Perish the thought. LOL

Apologies if taking a piss or joking was viewed in bad light. jamie, you've a good point which merits recalling. thank you for that.

[darkeyes]

Lilith.. Adam's 1st wife... a deamon as Jamie sez, but a woman (real or imaginery)as likely to be demonised as to b a daemon.. religious myth and legend change over time just like all myth and legend.. we are told the Lilith was created at the same time as Adam but refused to enter the garden with him, and that she refused to be subjugated by him.. which is why Lilith is a bit of an icon in some feminist circles.. that refusal probably is the reason in a male dominated society she became demonised 2.. but we can never know for sure..

[elian]

Yeah, they still have that going on today, except more in word - women better cover up - lest the men be "tempted" to have their way with them.. Don't get me wrong, I love men, think some of them are damn cute, but I still can't figure out why keeping it in the pants isn't the problem of the man, not the woman..

[jamieknyc]

Lilith.. Adam's 1st wife... a deamon as Jamie sez, but a woman (real or imaginery)as likely to be demonised as to b a daemon.. religious myth and legend change over time just like all myth and legend.. we are told the Lilith was created at the same time as Adam but refused to enter the garden with him, and that she refused to be subjugated by him.. which is why Lilith is a bit of an icon in some feminist circles.. that refusal probably is the reason in a male dominated society she became demonised 2.. but we can never know for sure..

Lilith was, as I said, a Mesopotamian demon that supposedly caused the death of newborn chilren. The idea of her being some type of seductress first wife of Adam is an invention, partly of the Middle Ages and even more so of nineteenth-century European literature.

[darkeyes]

Lilith was, as I said, a Mesopotamian demon that supposedly caused the death of newborn chilren. The idea of her being some type of seductress first wife of Adam is an invention, partly of the Middle Ages and even more so of nineteenth-century European literature.

I accept that Jamie, just as I accept the story of Lilith as 1st wife of Adam is an early medieval fabrication and elaborated upon by more recent literature.. I consider her as much of an invention of the human mind as I do Adam and Eve, and even the existence of God himself.. it is possible however, that as with later myths and legends, religious and non religious, there is a germ of truth somewhere about the existence of a Lilith or someone we now know as Lilith which time and oral tradition and later written tradition whose story became corrupted and became considered a daemon by the cultures of Mesopotamia and later by those of Judaism, Chritianity and Islam who developed the story of Lilith into the hotpotch we know today....

[jamieknyc]

I accept that Jamie, just as I accept the story of Lilith as 1st wife of Adam is an early medieval fabrication and elaborated upon by more recent literature.. I consider her as much of an invention of the human mind as I do Adam and Eve, and even the existence of God himself.. it is possible however, that as with later myths and legends, religious and non religious, there is a germ of truth somewhere about the existence of a Lilith or someone we now know as Lilith which time and oral tradition and later written tradition whose story became corrupted and became considered a daemon by the cultures of Mesopotamia and later by those of Judaism, Chritianity and Islam who developed the story of Lilith into the hotpotch we know today....

You are reading it backwards. The ancient world believed in a whole world of spirits and demons that was gradually pushed out by Judeo-Christian beliefs. Turning those creatures into human actors is an invention of Western literature in the modern age.

[darkeyes]

You are reading it backwards. The ancient world believed in a whole world of spirits and demons that was gradually pushed out by Judeo-Christian beliefs. Turning those creatures into human actors is an invention of Western literature in the modern age.

Im not reading it at all Jamie.. but as with so many people throughout human history there are those who have been accorded a status to suit the purposes of others.. some most likely became "daemons", others "witches" and "sorcerers"... same maybe even Gods. Some were good, some bad...because ancient text or legend accords a person daemon status does not mean the actual person, if he or she existed deserved that status and form and so were daemonised by those with a vested interest in doing so... some may have deserved a metaphorical demonisation but did not have anything like the powers which were attributed to them.. yes people believed in spirits and daemons.. and no doubt many ordinary or extraordinary people were given daemon status and powers and supernatural status which suited the purposes of those who thought up the story.. we do the same thing with people nowadays even if we do not accredit them supernatural power... we have done so throughout history.. its called propaganda... we make people great or we demonise them.. its the same principle..

Of course some "daemons" were probably pure invention, and thought up and given shape, form and powers which suited the purposes of someone or other... not all have any basis in fact.. some were probably actual people given supernatural status and ability which time and legend made more magical and mysterious.. it often became religion..

Myth and legend are like that.. whether or not there is any basis in fact or purely imaginery.. tales are thought up or elaborated on and we end up with something sometimes quite beautiful and at others something to scare the children with which bears little or no relation to truth.. and by the children.. I mean all of humanity..

[jamieknyc]

The ancient world would have considered the idea that a person could be made into a demonic figure to be absurd. They considered supernatural beings such as spirits and demons to be as real as a tree or a brick wall. You are attributing the ideas of the modern age to the world of 3,000 years ago.

[void()]

The ancient world would have considered the idea that a person could be made into a demonic figure to be absurd. They considered supernatural beings such as spirits and demons to be as real as a tree or a brick wall. You are attributing the ideas of the modern age to the world of 3,000 years ago.

What you may be missing here is that people whom do study ideas, relate that ideas are like viruses. As such a virus grows, adapts to continue living. Our 'modern' ideas are in that sense then, nothing new or modern at all.

An idea can be created any time. What then, excludes the idea of creating demons based on people from having been an ancient creation? Alliteration has been around quite a long while. One prime example is elucidated in the mythology of Zeus. He is said to have appeared as a bull, goose.

Sun Tzu even uses this method. He describes the most opportune time to strike an enemy by becoming like the falcon. Falcons striking exactly at the correct time, ensnaring and taking prey.

[jamieknyc]

What you may be missing here is that people whom do study ideas, relate that ideas are like viruses. As such a virus grows, adapts to continue living. Our 'modern' ideas are in that sense then, nothing new or modern at all.

An idea can be created any time. What then, excludes the idea of creating demons based on people from having been an ancient creation? Alliteration has been around quite a long while. One prime example is elucidated in the mythology of Zeus. He is said to have appeared as a bull, goose.

Sun Tzu even uses this method. He describes the most opportune time to strike an enemy by becoming like the falcon. Falcons striking exactly at the correct time, ensnaring and taking prey.

No sane person today would believe that a human could be made into an actual demon, except maybe Hugo Chavez, if you consider him sane. Likewise, the ancients considered spirits and demons to be a category of beings separate from humans.

Whether an idea can be created today does not change th fact that attrubting that idea to a past age is as anachronistic as describing that age as using the telephone.

[void()]

No sane person today would believe that a human could be made into an actual demon, except maybe Hugo Chavez, if you consider him sane. Likewise, the ancients considered spirits and demons to be a category of beings separate from humans.

Whether an idea can be created today does not change th fact that attrubting that idea to a past age is as anachronistic as describing that age as using the telephone.

Let me give you a better example. I understand your point but feel you're not quite getting the one Fran and me see, or at least I the _we_ see.


Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

"Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"

This was allegedly the ancients ascribing what God said. God gave them idea of personification via stating one of the Hermetic principles. "So above, so below." So, me and Fran say that yes the ancients could reason out making a person out to be a demon, just as we do today.

And I do understand, yes the ancients had a plethora of spirits, imps, ogres, demons, angels, sprites, pixies, elves, dwarves, trolls and so on. I get that, I do. It's just bothering you underestimating people from the past. We didn't just spring into existence from nothing. Unless you believe Stephen Hawking, but even he appears to support evolution.

What I see you saying is "Gee, our forefathers could not consider an idea of demonizing someone."

"But they can think out making people saints?" Your logic seems to be a bit skewed. It makes me go "Hurhhhn? Tought 'e wuz smarter dan dat."

"The number you are dialing in unable to reached at this beeeeeep ....."

Oh wow, got disconnected.

Oh yeah. Nearly forgot. The ancients feared witches turning people into all sorts of things, natural or unnatural. So, how is it hard to imagine someone then having the idea that a witch could turn you into a demon? I think you're getting confused between two ideas. There's the idea of demons existing. Then, the idea of being made a demon. We aren't denying the first but can see the second may have roots in the past as well.

[darkeyes]

Let me give you a better example. I understand your point but feel you're not quite getting the one Fran and me see, or at least I the _we_ see.



"Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"

This was allegedly the ancients ascribing what God said. God gave them idea of personification via stating one of the Hermetic principles. "So above, so below." So, me and Fran say that yes the ancients could reason out making a person out to be a demon, just as we do today.

And I do understand, yes the ancients had a plethora of spirits, imps, ogres, demons, angels, sprites, pixies, elves, dwarves, trolls and so on. I get that, I do. It's just bothering you underestimating people from the past. We didn't just spring into existence from nothing. Unless you believe Stephen Hawking, but even he appears to support evolution.

What I see you saying is "Gee, our forefathers could not consider an idea of demonizing someone."

"But they can think out making people saints?" Your logic seems to be a bit skewed. It makes me go "Hurhhhn? Tought 'e wuz smarter dan dat."

"The number you are dialing in unable to reached at this beeeeeep ....."

Oh wow, got disconnected.

Oh yeah. Nearly forgot. The ancients feared witches turning people into all sorts of things, natural or unnatural. So, how is it hard to imagine someone then having the idea that a witch could turn you into a demon? I think you're getting confused between two ideas. There's the idea of demons existing. Then, the idea of being made a demon. We aren't denying the first but can see the second may have roots in the past as well.

Quite Voidie... but a point I feel strongly about in that ancient superstitious world, is that an ordinary human being, who has lived a life of pious decency, helping his or her fellow man is condemned by an ancient King whose name we have forgotten in a land we do not know because his or her ways and beliefs were not in the interests of that long forgotten king, and in the space of a few generations metamorphs from good, well loved human being to evil human being, to witch or sorceror to being daemon. In a world of superstition, fear and ignorance it is quite conceivable and also quite likely that such did actually happen.. human beings were raised to God status in their own lifetimes in the ancient world and soon after.. is it so difficult to believe that over a few generations they became daemonised? And not just daemonised but some made saintly figures believed to have supernatural power for good? And were not human beings declared witch and daemon in the not so distant past and in their own lifetimes? There were enough funeral pyres accross Europe to testify to that.

That isn't the thoughts of modern human beings as Jamie claims but the thought of those of us who think and know the propensity of our species for demonising those we fear or distrust, disagree or have an issue with... we do it differently because of our state of knowledge of the modern world and of modern humanity.. we may demonise but we cannot turn people into daemons.. but the intention is the same.. to discredit a person and ideas he or she may be associated with, or worse, to corrupt those ideas and make them into something which is a lie..

Of course much is speculation.. we do not know for certain a great deal.. but since the dawn of civilisation, religion and modern humankind, our species hasn't changed that much.. it merely has adapted daemonisation and remoulded it into demonisation... in the 2000 years of the Christian era alone there are enough examples of its evolution...

[goldenfinger]

For the record, I have a hard time believing this thread wasn't posted primarily to cause discord. :tongue:

No it was not, I just want "THE TRUTH"

So many expert, yet not one united answer.:bigrin:

[darkeyes]

No it was not, I just want "THE TRUTH"

So many expert, yet not one united answer.:bigrin:

Getting truth here? You'll be lucky.. my truth isnt Jamie's and his isnt Annika's or Annika Voidie's or ne 1 else's.. we each have our own.. and all may be a lie.. we rationalise and believe what our mind, heart and experience tell us.. from the sum of our personal knowledge and whatever faith it provides.. we all seek truth but we rarely ever find it.. and in matters religion probably none of us do.. it is a matter of faith.. belief.. I have no belief in God, yet have a powerful belief and faith in humanity's eventual triumph over his own most base instincts and over his ancient superstitions.. the latter of these being something I consider religious belief to be.. I may be wrong but I doubt even after death I will find out.. many others have a different view and tell me so in no uncertain terms but that is a cross I gladly bear even if it does frustrate and exasperate the devil out of me..

No expert answers at all, Goldfinger.. about religion some may be expert on theology but on God? Whether or not He/She/It exists none will ever be that.. we struggle along as best we can with whatever faith and belief we have and try to live our lives accordingly.. sometimes we will fail but human beings are flawed creatures and often let themselves and their belief's down. I may be and am contemptuous of many of the beliefs religious and otherwise of my fellow human beings.. but not of them as human beings for holding those beliefs.. argue with them certainly and I have done so often in forums.. just as they argue what they believe I would fail myself if I did not take up the cudgels in defence of my own..

We all search for truth but when it comes to belief or otherwise in God I doubt we will ever find it in on this site.. or anywhere else for that matter.. it is something personal to each of us.. one truth, billions of truths, no truth.. you pays your money and takes your choice.. but we strive and seek and search it out.. we believe what we believe and argue in defence of those beliefs and try to convince others of the truth or "truth" of our cause.. not expertly.. just as best we can..:)

[elian]

The story goes that God fragmented itself into a million bits of light so that it could learn what it was like to feel ego..so that "we" could learn what it was like to be "apart" from it.

If you think about it some people might say that what we do here is magick, it is the stuff of Gods - transforming thought and intention into the "physical", material realm - and learning from the result in the process..whatever that means to you might have some significance.

People seek out and draw power to themselves, they lust after it at times but having real power is a scary thing - to have to be the one who decides who will live and who will die - that's scary.

We have common hardware, common firmware, the ability to be thrust into any environment as a newborn infant and "learn" responses from our actions, learn a set of rules to interact in our environment, learn a language..

I've long thought that the physical world is a storage medium for memory. The people who lived here before I bought the house planted roses. I would not even know what roses are or that they exist in the world if it were not for a common shared culture and shared memory. The people that planted the roses have long since passed away, but the energy of the roses, their symbolism, their physical form are still here..still preserved in the physical realm and I can look them up in a book and see what type of plant they are. I know how special they were to the people who lived here before, even though they both passed on long before I ever knew this place existed.


Other than that there is no "The Truth" that I am aware of - just a bunch of individual and shared experiences, a common culture..


Of course unless you mean this..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3s0GgtCD6I (some things are a matter of perspective)

or

http://www.amazon.com/Truth-Terry-Pratchett/dp/0380818191 (it's just plain cheeky satirical humor - like a vampire that demands affirmative action equal employment in a pencil manufacturing facility - great fun)

[goldenfinger]

Getting truth here? You'll be lucky.. my truth isnt Jamie's and his isnt Annika's or Annika Voidie's or ne 1 else's.. we each have our own.. and all may be a lie.. we rationalise and believe what our mind, heart and experience tell us.. from the sum of our personal knowledge and whatever faith it provides.. we all seek truth but we rarely ever find it.. and in matters religion probably none of us do.. it is a matter of faith.. belief.. I have no belief in God, yet have a powerful belief and faith in humanity's eventual triumph over his own most base instincts and over his ancient superstitions.. the latter of these being something I consider religious belief to be.. I may be wrong but I doubt even after death I will find out.. many others have a different view and tell me so in no uncertain terms but that is a cross I gladly bear even if it does frustrate and exasperate the devil out of me..

No expert answers at all, Goldfinger.. about religion some may be expert on theology but on God? Whether or not He/She/It exists none will ever be that.. we struggle along as best we can with whatever faith and belief we have and try to live our lives accordingly.. sometimes we will fail but human beings are flawed creatures and often let themselves and their belief's down. I may be and am contemptuous of many of the beliefs religious and otherwise of my fellow human beings.. but not of them as human beings for holding those beliefs.. argue with them certainly and I have done so often in forums.. just as they argue what they believe I would fail myself if I did not take up the cudgels in defence of my own..

We all search for truth but when it comes to belief or otherwise in God I doubt we will ever find it in on this site.. or anywhere else for that matter.. it is something personal to each of us.. one truth, billions of truths, no truth.. you pays your money and takes your choice.. but we strive and seek and search it out.. we believe what we believe and argue in defence of those beliefs and try to convince others of the truth or "truth" of our cause.. not expertly.. just as best we can..:)

I think that is about as close as we will ever come to the truth,we just don't know, and pretend otherwise, is sheer madness..And thank you for writing english so I can read it all.

[elian]

Aww man, the human imagination is much grander than that.. No hellfire? No smoking brimstone? No cute mostly naked guys or ladies with wings in the wrong places?

Then again, the most powerful prayer I have ever done used no words at all - just silent feelings of desire, gratitude, love and healing..(sssh, don't tell the evangelists.)

Actually I'm all for a free and responsible search for truth and meaning, that's why I am a member of the UU church.

[darkeyes]

*laffs*... soz Elian me luffly... the words human imagination allied to the word grander should give you a wee clue how I feel about it all... ally them to fear and superstition and the need to explain the existence and the world about us, power and greed and we about come down to where I see the development of religion in ancient and prehistoric times...

.. I'm glad you found your own place to search for truth... I even hope you find it.. I search for it in the world around me and through experience so I don't need a place to go... it's everywhere.. and you my dear, are one small and not negligible part of it..:)

[jamieknyc]

Let me give you a better example. I understand your point but feel you're not quite getting the one Fran and me see, or at least I the _we_ see.



"Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"

This was allegedly the ancients ascribing what God said. God gave them idea of personification via stating one of the Hermetic principles. "So above, so below." So, me and Fran say that yes the ancients could reason out making a person out to be a demon, just as we do today.

And I do understand, yes the ancients had a plethora of spirits, imps, ogres, demons, angels, sprites, pixies, elves, dwarves, trolls and so on. I get that, I do. It's just bothering you underestimating people from the past. We didn't just spring into existence from nothing. Unless you believe Stephen Hawking, but even he appears to support evolution.

What I see you saying is "Gee, our forefathers could not consider an idea of demonizing someone."

"But they can think out making people saints?" Your logic seems to be a bit skewed. It makes me go "Hurhhhn? Tought 'e wuz smarter dan dat."

"The number you are dialing in unable to reached at this beeeeeep ....."

Oh wow, got disconnected.

Oh yeah. Nearly forgot. The ancients feared witches turning people into all sorts of things, natural or unnatural. So, how is it hard to imagine someone then having the idea that a witch could turn you into a demon? I think you're getting confused between two ideas. There's the idea of demons existing. Then, the idea of being made a demon. We aren't denying the first but can see the second may have roots in the past as well.

You're missing the point. The ancients did not consider demons as being a figure of speech, or a status ascribed to particularly evil humans. They considered demons to be real beings that did things to people, or animals, buildings, crops, etc. Some cultures today still believe that.

You should never quote the Bible in a discussion of ancient religious belief because it represents that belief of one nation in the ancient world, which was considerd by everyone else to have strange beliefs and bizarre customs (see Tacitus and Cicero). Put otherwise, the Bible works for a description of the beliefs of my ancestors, but your ancestors and Fran's were making offerings to propitiate the demon that causes people to become bisexual.

[darkeyes]

You're missing the point. The ancients did not consider demons as being a figure of speech, or a status ascribed to particularly evil humans. They considered demons to be real beings that did things to people, or animals, buildings, crops, etc. Some cultures today still believe that.

You should never quote the Bible in a discussion of ancient religious belief because it represents that belief of one nation in the ancient world, which was considerd by everyone else to have strange beliefs and bizarre customs (see Tacitus and Cicero). Put otherwise, the Bible works for a description of the beliefs of my ancestors, but your ancestors and Fran's were making offerings to propitiate the demon that causes people to become bisexual.

I don't think Voidie is missing the point at all, Jamie.. I certainly don't.. but I think you may be missing ours... daemonisation of people by the ancients meant just that.. daemons in the eyes of our ancestors were real, supernatural beings with powers to corrupt human beings, change them and blight the land just to name but a few.. the point we make is that for purposes of their own, some daemonised human beings and accredited them with powers they did not really have and over time, a few generations most likely, the daemonisation became complete and from being a human being, their name and reputation was so blighted, the things they stood for so corrupted that they were believed by ancient superstitious people as being proper bona fide supernatural still alive daemons who had it in for humanity and were blamed for all sorts of curses, our ancestors faced and endured... as time went on it was forgotten that once they were human beings and were handy useful tools because of the beliefs and superstitions of those ancestors with which to persecute and suppress any the powers that be.. the ruling elite and priestly classes.. felt were a danger to their position and power..

It is still done... some parts of your own society have demonised your own president, demonised the ideas of socialism, demonised for a while the nation of France only a decade ago, even demonised public health care and its proponents, once a few hundred years ago my own country was demonised as Americans fought for their freedom, Iran and its leaders are still demonised, Islam is demonised.. they may not be bona fide demons any of those, but the principle and purpose is the same as that same daemonisation process of several thousand years ago.. to discredit and put the fear of God into peoples hearts and minds and make them tow the line...

..and before you say, yes my side does it too about people, societies, nations, religions and ideas so few can be excused demonising others with which we disagree.. I hold my hands up.. I have even done it myself on occasion if I feel strongly anough..

One thing I may take issue with.. my ancestors, at least my celtic ancestors never did propitiate any daemon which caused bisexuality or homosexuality for that matter.. they were quite happy to have it away with those of their own sex, and there was no placating or appeasing any daemon involved... one thing you may wish to consider is that most of us in the west have some Jewish blood in us... most Jews in the west have some of just about everything else and most in Israel for that matter.. so our ancestors are yours, and yours me luffly are ours... something to consider... unless of course you know for cetrain that you are a 100% Hebrew with no taint of gentile blood coarsing through your veins... Nice name Jamie... Scottish... maybe it isnt your real name I dont know.. but an interesting choice..;)

Aye Jamie.. we are a' Jock Tamson's bairns...:)

[jamieknyc]

"Demonizing" someone is to compare them to a demon. It does not make them an actual demon (if such beings exist) any more than comparing you to a tree means that you actually are one.

Demons in the ancient world did not corrupt humans. That is a later idea of Christianity. Instead, demons caused harm to people, or in other cases to animals, crops, or whatever else. Lilith, for intance, caued the death of newborn infants; other demons caused crop failures, contagious diseases, falling buildings or whatever.

[ivanthemonkey]

"It simply is not a plausible arguement that those records could have survived."

I concur with you on that. I further point out though, it is also plausible that a state or case of no records surviving is just as implausible. There would have been records, some, even one would have survived. You can not ask me to believe none did, that all such records just mysteriously and conveniently vanished owing to whatever excuse. This is known as a double blind standard and it is not a good logical argument.

"God's will made the records vanish, have faith."

"um, yeah sure ..."

This isn't a case of records mysteriously or conveneintly disappearing. It is a case where there was wholesale destruction and ruination on a colosol national scale.

The Romans were expelled by the jewish revolution out of the country, literally fleeing and abandoning their siege equipment after being routed. They had no time to categorize and pack records. The period that followed was extremely chaotic and destructive of a very wide scale.

Jeruselem, the capital, was burnt and destroyed after being held by the rebels for a long period of time. It is unlikely that any records survived this destruction, especially in consequence to it's insignificance to those involved.


It should also be pointed out that the rebel factions were completly united in being anti-christian and openly persecuting, even executing, followers of christ. If such records were known to them then they would have a vested interest in destroying them. (that however would be groundless speculation)

The only party with a vested interest in preserving such records had no access to them, indeed after the Romans fled at the start of the war, the vast majority of christians headed for the hills, being under the belief that this was litterally the end of times (and no doubt fleeing the persecution of the anti-christian rebel leaders)

The Hebrew religious Worship of that time was also effectively destroyed along with the destruction of jeruselem, since the wholesale loss of records means there can be no priests or high priest, to carry out their worship, noone can tell who is from which tribe because there are no longer any records of their geneology. There was a monumental wholesale loss of records during this period of time that was simply staggering.

My point here is that the arguement that there is no state records of Jesus's birth or execution is flawed, since the survival of such records is so very highly unlikely, given the circumstances of the time and the significance of the destruction.



Gee, seems that was basically what I was saying. Actually, the Bible depicts a cross, but I was saying it was likely just an upright stake/pole.

Nowhere in the bible does it describe the shape of the crucifix used on Jesus, which in the orriginal texts use the greek word stau·ros′ and xylon, which doen't specify the particular shape or structure, and both would simply translate as stake, beam or even tree, with no real definition on the actual shape.

Many modern translations don't use the term cross, (or else footnote it) and use terms such as torture stake, upright stake etc. And even many christian religions and sects don't use the cross.

It is generally held that a person who is crusified with his arms stretched in a cross shape would have difficulty breathing and would quickly aphyxiate, likely in a matter of minutes.

The bible dipiction however is not consistant with this, describes Jesus as living for many hours, and having conversations with multiple peoples, which is more consistant with his arms being raised above his head.

[ivanthemonkey]

Most scholars consider that Josephus quote to be a medieval forgery

Some scholors might question this, but there is no evidence other then speculation. I would point out however that Josephus refers to him rather unflatteringly as the "so called" which shows that while he acknowledges the existances of christians he casts disparity on Jesus being anything other then an ordinary human.

[darkeyes]

"Demonizing" someone is to compare them to a demon. It does not make them an actual demon (if such beings exist) any more than comparing you to a tree means that you actually are one.

Demons in the ancient world did not corrupt humans. That is a later idea of Christianity. Instead, demons caused harm to people, or in other cases to animals, crops, or whatever else. Lilith, for intance, caued the death of newborn infants; other demons caused crop failures, contagious diseases, falling buildings or whatever.

It simply doesnt matter one jot what a real daemon did Jamie... what is important is how some human beings of power through the ages daemonised and later demonised others because they were did not conform to the rules laid down, because they were considered an abberation or for a myriad of other reasons.. throughout the history of the last couple of thousand years of western civilisation Christianity alone and modern Christian culture have done that very well about one group of people... those who who participate in homosexual activity...

[elian]

*laffs*... soz Elian me luffly... the words human imagination allied to the word grander should give you a wee clue how I feel about it all... ally them to fear and superstition and the need to explain the existence and the world about us, power and greed and we about come down to where I see the development of religion in ancient and prehistoric times...

.. I'm glad you found your own place to search for truth... I even hope you find it.. I search for it in the world around me and through experience so I don't need a place to go... it's everywhere.. and you my dear, are one small and not negligible part of it..:)

Religion and spirituality still have a role to play in this world Fran, one that is desperately needed..but not that people simply "find" or "fall in love with" some particular faith or ideology; they can already do that at the shopping mall.

I could write seven more paragraphs but it is simply this - we need an antidote to the very unreal, very commercial world that gets blasted into our homes, our schools, the places where we work, our automobiles, our public spaces 24 hours a day seven days a week.

In the so called "real" world where I live I am constantly bombarded with messages that are self centered, messages that build up ego to ply wealth from hands. Messages that often times MANUFACTURE a need and then SELL you the "solution".

People need to understand that they are NOT the center of the universe but also they are not broken. They WON'T be powerful and happy and rich and successful if only they had bought that tube of toothpaste.. soon after you have the toothpaste you will be off on the next elusive quest..chasing a rabbit down a hole.

We are constantly bathed in a stream of messages that threaten to disconnect us from nature, our local community and other forces that would quietly feed, guide and sustain us if we could only hear them.

Where would you rather live, in a world that says "Do for yourself" or a world that says "Love one another" - and where else can you go in this world to hear a message like that?

[darkeyes]

Religion and spirituality still have a role to play in this world Fran, one that is desperately needed..but not that people simply "find" or "fall in love with" some particular faith or ideology; they can already do that at the shopping mall.

I could write seven more paragraphs but it is simply this - we need an antidote to the very unreal, very commercial world that gets blasted into our homes, our schools, the places where we work, our automobiles, our public spaces 24 hours a day seven days a week.

In the so called "real" world where I live I am constantly bombarded with messages that are self centered, messages that build up ego to ply wealth from hands. Messages that often times MANUFACTURE a need and then SELL you the "solution".

People need to understand that they are NOT the center of the universe but also they are not broken. They WON'T be powerful and happy and rich and successful if only they had bought that tube of toothpaste.. soon after you have the toothpaste you will be off on the next elusive quest..chasing a rabbit down a hole.

We are constantly bathed in a stream of messages that threaten to disconnect us from nature, our local community and other forces that would quietly feed, guide and sustain us if we could only hear them.

Where would you rather live, in a world that says "Do for yourself" or a world that says "Love one another" - and where else can you go in this world to hear a message like that?

I was raised in an athiest family whose ethos was love one another.. most of my fathers relations are athiest and about half of my mothers.. many, probably most of my friends are athiest or agnostic and most if not all of these people live by the principle "love one another". It is not a prerequisite of living by such a principle that we have to be religious, Elian. Many millions of athiests and agnostics live by that..

You believe in God and so it is natural that you will rotate towards an institution that which is closest to how you feel about what you believe and the world.. that's great for you and I am really glad for you.. I have no such faith or belief and so I have no church I can go to.. once I was a member of political Party whose ethos was substantially built of the tenet of "love one another".. that is the Labour party and it was founded on the principles of Christian Socialism.. it has never been devoutly Christian, but it has until lately always tried to live by the doctrine of "love one another" and has always been the party of the most impoverished and weakest in our society.. that was my church if you want to call it that..

The Blair years crushed out of me my belief in that organisation and deprived me of the natural home within which I could argue and live by the principle you espouse is something I have to live with and I am searching for another.. but you know what? I find deep down that personally I don't need it.. I miss it greatly but around me I see people living by that code every day of the week.. unfortunately the world needs it, or at least the little country in which I live.. it will arise and be found I am sure of that, but it is not necessary that it be a religious institution and in my view preferable that it is entirely secular..

I do not believe in God and that is well known.. our antidote to the ills of our world is not going to be found in solely if at all in religion or its faiths and institutions.. they have their part to play because so many have belief in God, but the doctrine of "love one another" can be and is found all around us... without any input from a God or gods.. without any belief in God or God's..

I live very easily in the pretty certain knowledge that when I die I will enter oblivion, and that there is no heaven or hell.. I need none of that to live by the adage of "love one another" or to do what I can to cure the world's ills in my own small way.. I don't need it as a comfort blanket for security.. in my opinion religion, churches, mosques and synagogues and all the temples of the world keep us embedded in superstition and stops humanity from moving on... I find the universe so much more beautiful not because it was created by an omnipotent being but because it was not... I find the achievents of humanity so much more amazing because it was not the will of God but because it was the will of humankind.. and I find that the condemnations heaped upon man for his follies are so much more deserving because we really have no God we can blame.. I insist on no one accepting a word of what I say.. it is but how I see us and our place in the cosmos.. I do not need God or the church to know my place in the universe is pretty insignificant as is our entire species and all life on this planet...

... but never mind Elian.. maybe now Einstein may have been wrong we may yet be able to go back physically into the past with a news team and and prove or disprove much of what we are told about Jesus, Mahomet, the Buddha, Moses et al... *laffs*.. and God help us if we ever can...

Elian.. what would you have me do? Attend and join an institution which preaches something huge I simply cannot believe in because it may agree with me on one other admittedly huge thing? Go along and praise a lord in which I do not believe? For the most part we never agree 100% with any other person or institution.. but some things babes are just too much to even consider... and I have far too many differences with the Church (in all its denominations) on far too many other issues to even think about it..

[Diva667]

In some ways this thread has the flavor of "can spider man beat up super man" discussions. Could Yoda take out Capt James T Kirk?

http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ldhp37QMDG1qzr77io1_500.jpg

[Annika L]

Where would you rather live, in a world that says "Do for yourself" or a world that says "Love one another" - and where else can you go in this world to hear a message like that?

Elian, the answers for me are clear. Of course, I would rather live in a world that says "Love one another". And to hear messages like that I need go no further than the inner sanctum of my own heart. To have community around this philosophy, I also seek out others who seem to feel that message in their hearts.

I understand that others might not find that message in theirs, and I do not condemn them from seeking that message elsewhere, including in churches. I do fear, though, that this is far from the only message they get in church...and that some of those messages they receive in church lead them to act in ways that are highly incongruent with the philosophy of "Love one another." So myself, I prefer to stay away from such places, and I tend to be somewhat wary of such people.

[jamieknyc]

I was raised in an athiest family whose ethos was love one another.. most of my fathers relations are athiest and about half of my mothers.. many, probably most of my friends are athiest or agnostic and most if not all of these people live by the principle "love one another". It is not a prerequisite of living by such a principle that we have to be religious, Elian. Many millions of athiests and agnostics live by that..

"Love one another" is of course a Jewish religious commandment that has been taught to Western peoples through the medium of Christianity, so atheists can claim no credit for the principle.

[Annika L]

"Love one another" is of course a Jewish religious commandment that has been taught to Western peoples through the medium of Christianity, so atheists can claim no credit for the principle.

I strongly doubt that this is a creed with a single source. So I suspect that anyone who promotes it can claim a share of the credit (nor do I think God would grudge them their share, as long as it all went toward realizing a world where love reigns).

In that "atheists" are not an organized body in any sense, of course "atheists" did not originate the notion. But I believe Fran's claim was simply that a significant number of atheists *follow* this creed, and yet do not recognize religious authority or doctrine.

[darkeyes]

"Love one another" is of course a Jewish religious commandment that has been taught to Western peoples through the medium of Christianity, so atheists can claim no credit for the principle.

You can be such a prat at times Jamie.. I havent claimed it for athiests or anyone else.. merely said that it is not only those who go to church who hold and try to live the concept... you do have such a downer on we unbelievers babes...

Jews may claim it.. but do we know for sure, without doubt that they were the first to preach it and try and live it? No we do not.. it may well have been, but I'm too young to remember... it doesnt matter who thought up the concept.. it is a wonderful concept and whoever first dreamed it and preached it deserves all our thanks.. however, whoever it was probably didnt invent the concept, but first articulated what was a human emotion developing from the time we moved from instinct to increasing sentience.. that of course is arguable and I don't mind if you take issue with me about that.. because what you claim is probably just as likely but not necessarily so..

[MetaSexual2]

"Love one another" is of course a Jewish religious commandment that has been taught to Western peoples through the medium of Christianity, so atheists can claim no credit for the principle.

My theology is a bit rusty, but that concept has appeared in nearly every religious and philosophic belief system back to the beginning of recorded history. There are multiple examples that predate Judaism, and other pathways by which it has entered Western thought in its codified form.

It also very likely emerges from our primate evolutionary drives towards socialization, as there is strong evidence it is in operation in chimp societies in its most basic form as the golden rule. So no one can take credit for it, it is just there in our core social processing systems, probably as a way of getting large groups of us to work together to achieve complex goals.

[ErosUrge]

"And we know there are many false religions out there with false revelation so test what you believe."

For people who chose to believe in one religion, I think that it is best to tone down the dogmatic rhetoric about false religions or one religion being the "right" religion in a democratic secular society. For those that live in societies that impose one state religion, you have my sympathy. Spirituality is not bound by one religion or any specific religion. It is best to look at the essence of various religions to find a path to enlightenment.

This pretty much sums up my own feelings, thoughts, etc....but then so have the thoughts and expressions of Darkeyes and AnnkikaL. Though Darkeyes may be atheist or agnostic matters not one bit to me. I respect her convictions though mine differ somewhat. She speaks straight from the heart and her experiences. Ultmately, I must add that no one knows absolutely about any of it absolutely. Just because we get legions of others or institutions who agree with our perceptions doesn't make it the truth. I do trust that there is a "truth" or "reality" that exists unto itself regardless of what we believe, but we're so busy trying to interpret or define what is and what isn't that we don't hear or see it...again, doesn't mean I know; just a possibility.

[elian]

Elian.. what would you have me do? Attend and join an institution which preaches something huge I simply cannot believe in because it may agree with me on one other admittedly huge thing? Go along and praise a lord in which I do not believe? For the most part we never agree 100% with any other person or institution.. but some things babes are just too much to even consider... and I have far too many differences with the Church (in all its denominations) on far too many other issues to even think about it..

Do as you are doing now, there is nothing wrong with that..and there is at least one church that Atheists attend, I got quite a surprise the first time I ever sat down and spoke with someone at our social hour because the atheist I was talking to made it very clear that he had no believe in God whatsoever. I didn't think less of him for it at all.

What I wrote wasn't a personal attack on you at all, I'm just saying that here in the US we have plenty of institutions that support the free market and profit for profit's sake. It would be nice to see a few that make it their mission to not treat human beings as "just another commodity". I certainly don't have a monopoly on how we get there from here, and I should NOT have a monopoly on it..

Thanks for your thoughts!

[void()]

"Love one another" is of course a Jewish religious commandment that has been taught to Western peoples through the medium of Christianity, so atheists can claim no credit for the principle.

I believe Confucius/Lao Tzu may have also stated this principle at some point. This person was ahead of Jews chronologically. Ultimately, credit for it does not matter. What matters is each person making efforts to enact the principle. Many refer to it as The Golden Rule. It has been around a very long time and is tested and True.

Excuse me, now off to further explore Hour Dollars, Mr. Rogers. May have a pint of Earl Grey tea and possibly write on a fictional story wholly unrelated to Hour Dollars & Mr. Rogers. Keep it simple, stay safe and enjoy the day. :)

[darkeyes]

Do as you are doing now, there is nothing wrong with that..and there is at least one church that Atheists attend, I got quite a surprise the first time I ever sat down and spoke with someone at our social hour because the atheist I was talking to made it very clear that he had no believe in God whatsoever. I didn't think less of him for it at all.

What I wrote wasn't a personal attack on you at all, I'm just saying that here in the US we have plenty of institutions that support the free market and profit for profit's sake. It would be nice to see a few that make it their mission to not treat human beings as "just another commodity". I certainly don't have a monopoly on how we get there from here, and I should NOT have a monopoly on it..

Thanks for your thoughts!

Wasn't in the least offended Elian.. I know there was no personal attack involved... but it isn't just in the US there are institutions who support profit for profit's sake and to hell with the consequences and whoever gets in the way... there are plenty of them here too.. including the major Government party whose religion is the all (not so) powerful pound and helping those with lots become peeps with lots more and enjoying as a matter of principle taking away from those who have bugger all, a junior partner which lets them do much as they wish and does little more than have the odd grumble, an opposition of immense ineptitude who couldn't blow the skin of a rice pudding and a voracious and greedy private sector who will walk over anyone and anything to get their way and make their wealth and power even greater...

Such democratic preservation of the principle of "love one another" that exists in the UK exists in the parliament and assemblies of the three smaller devolved countries of the state, in some local authorities throughout the entire kingdom but even within those it is creaking at the seams as they struggle against the overwhelming power of the British state and private capital.. and it is most importantly in the ordinary people and communities of all 4 nations we find that principle put into practice, not universally, for we have seen just the opposite of late, but there remains sufficient for me to believe without question that it is a principle which may have caught a bit of a heavy cold but is in no danger of developing into a fatal pneumonia.

Since the advent of the Thatcher government in 1979 this country has seen the principle of institutions, government, businesses and many people as individuals treat other people as commodities and the concept of "love one another" put under real stress.. there is more selfishness and greed even among ordinary people and there is more materialism than there was in 1979.. but the concept of "love one another" remains strong enough among ordinary people and some institutions, even religious institutions, to hold that other parasitical concept substantially in check and hold up its advance until recovered sufficiently to roll it back behind its own parapets..

[goldenfinger]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=y1FgL2lZb0E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dvg5OvxBPDA&feature=related
Shaking head

[pepperjack]

What about Lilith?

According to some of the excluded Bible parts she came after Adam, She liked it on top. But apparently God wanted a male dominate following.

What about 'the other people'?

Cain is said to have gone into the land of Nod and there dwell amongst other people, who had been there all along.

There are many such contradictions and curiosities, I could expound upon but will not. Christianity is not for me nor me for it. Some of these type of questions contribute to why the case is such. One which really sinks in good is the one about omnipotence.

If God is all powerful, knowing and and all around perfect being, why does she/he/it need us?

The best response so far has been it expresses love through us. But that response can be countered by our ongoing love of war. "Gee, expressing love, really?"

And I don't buy the whole notion of freewill either. God creates you, knows you 100%, knows what you'll choose. Where is that freewill, then?

Bah. Excuse me, dallied too long here. No offense intended but merely putting forward some morsels for thought, maybe conversation.

Bible appears contradictory & is confusing, especially early books like Genesis, because of human error & it's incomplete; If you were an artist & created something you saw as beautiful, wouldn't u be focused on it? other ancient texts indicate God saw man as His greatest creation, which enraged Satan, that's why he rebelled. And why do u have such a problem w/omnipotence? I've had quite a few close encounters w/death because I've lived a hard & dangerous life & walked away feeling a higher power was keeping me alive. and free will? u don't make choices & decisions all day like the rest of us? And why r u blaming God for man's warlike nature which came about because of his free will when the Bible says eventually "swords will be turned into plowshares and man shall learn to war no more."? Maybe that's why the story of Cain&Able is in the beginning. u speak of morsels of thought but come across as confusing because ur'e confused & don't bother to search & compare; ever hear of comparative shopping?

[jamieknyc]

I strongly doubt that this is a creed with a single source. So I suspect that anyone who promotes it can claim a share of the credit (nor do I think God would grudge them their share, as long as it all went toward realizing a world where love reigns).

In that "atheists" are not an organized body in any sense, of course "atheists" did not originate the notion. But I believe Fran's claim was simply that a significant number of atheists *follow* this creed, and yet do not recognize religious authority or doctrine.

The source is Leviticus 19:18. In the pre-Christian ancient world it was considered a silly Jewish belief, like some people think today of not eating shellfish, or not wearing a garment made of wool and linen.

[Katja]

In that "atheists" are not an organized body in any sense, of course "atheists" did not originate the notion.

Can we say that with absolute certainty? I doubt there were many athiests or agnostics around 3 thousand and more years ago but there probably were some.

Is it entirely beyond the realm of possibility that the very first to consider and argue that we should love one another was a person who did not believe in God or Gods, and can we say with absolute certainty that in there was not a sect of athiests or agnostics who were the first to preach such a radical doctrine?

[Phreade9x3]

uh Lilith is in the hebrew torah: not the "xian" bible.... just to clarify (in case no one has pointed it out yet)

[goldenfinger]

Hinduism pre-date Christianity by more then 500 years, and it was all about love and sex, so how dare we say that "love one another" is a christian invention, absolute rubbish.No one invented anything overnight, it was a very slow and long development. Every generation learn from the generation before them, so even Jesus would have learned his teaching from the generation before him. Problem with Christians is, they think they are right, and so do muslims and jews. Hence the bloody mess we'r in today.
Athiests and Christianity depend on each other for their survivial, one without the other would have no meaning, just like hot and cold, day and night, angels and the devils, heaven and hell.:eek:

[Annika L]

The source is Leviticus 19:18. In the pre-Christian ancient world it was considered a silly Jewish belief, like some people think today of not eating shellfish, or not wearing a garment made of wool and linen.

Your using *your* religion's bible as a source for this? Oh please, that's hardly fair, is it? I don't believe the words in your bible are historical fact, so we have a problem there...*maybe* they were somebody's impression of historical fact when they were written (maybe not, too)...but that doesn't make them historical fact.

I simply do not believe that one single group came up with this notion. It isn't plausible in my worldview. It is too fundamental and too widespread a notion (it pops up in too many religions and societies in too many places) to have been originated by the Jewish people and spread to all corners of the world.

I do have no doubt that the Jews advocated this worldview, though, and tried to spread it...and I have no doubt that they encountered resistance from many people. But that doesn't mean they were the sole source of the idea. That, in my view, is a self-aggrandizing claim.

[Annika L]

Can we say that with absolute certainty? I doubt there were many athiests or agnostics around 3 thousand and more years ago but there probably were some.

Is it entirely beyond the realm of possibility that the very first to consider and argue that we should love one another was a person who did not believe in God or Gods, and can we say with absolute certainty that in there was not a sect of athiests or agnostics who were the first to preach such a radical doctrine?

Did you read the context of what I wrote? It could well have been a sect of atheists. But "atheists" are not a united people. So even if a sect of atheists originated the idea, I still would not say that "the atheists" originated the idea.

My comment was a response to jamie's claim that "atheists can take no credit for the idea", which I read (perhaps mistakenly) not as "no atheist can take credit" but as (directed toward Fran) "you atheists"...meaning "the atheists".

But as I said to jamie, I don't believe *any* one single group, atheist, Jewish, Hindu or otherwise, is solely responsible for this notion on Earth. Rather, my thoughts fall in line with MetaSexual's:


My theology is a bit rusty, but that concept has appeared in nearly every religious and philosophic belief system back to the beginning of recorded history. There are multiple examples that predate Judaism, and other pathways by which it has entered Western thought in its codified form.

It also very likely emerges from our primate evolutionary drives towards socialization, as there is strong evidence it is in operation in chimp societies in its most basic form as the golden rule. So no one can take credit for it, it is just there in our core social processing systems, probably as a way of getting large groups of us to work together to achieve complex goals.

[void()]

Bible appears contradictory & is confusing, especially early books like Genesis, because of human error & it's incomplete; If you were an artist & created something you saw as beautiful, wouldn't u be focused on it? other ancient texts indicate God saw man as His greatest creation, which enraged Satan, that's why he rebelled. And why do u have such a problem w/omnipotence? I've had quite a few close encounters w/death because I've lived a hard & dangerous life & walked away feeling a higher power was keeping me alive. and free will? u don't make choices & decisions all day like the rest of us? And why r u blaming God for man's warlike nature which came about because of his free will when the Bible says eventually "swords will be turned into plowshares and man shall learn to war no more."? Maybe that's why the story of Cain&Able is in the beginning. u speak of morsels of thought but come across as confusing because ur'e confused & don't bother to search & compare; ever hear of comparative shopping?

And why do u have such a problem w/omnipotence?

You should read my post again. I stated that if God is all powerful, then it seems there should not exist a need of us. So, my question is if God is all powerful, why does it need us?

Bible appears contradictory & is confusing, especially early books like Genesis, because of human error & it's incomplete; If you were an artist & created something you saw as beautiful, wouldn't u be focused on it?

This also something which also bothers me. If God is all powerful and all knowing, then why wasn't The Bible written in such fashion as to be understood universally without room for misinterpretation? Instead The Bible is written by man, and interpreted however the ruling class decides in most cases. If God meant it to be the One Truth and Only Truth, then why not write it on its' own without error or room for various misunderstandings?

I gather that prior to the tower in Babel, we all spoke one language. After Babel, we all spoke different languages. Was there some rational against keeping it simple and universal? The Bible could have a great foundation if we all spoke the same.

Free will to me is an illusion because according to The Bible, God had my life planned out even before time began. All choices are known. I can not then truly choose freely when it's all been chosen in advance.

Man was created in God's image. God is shown to be jealous. He commanded genocide in several places in The Bible. I am not confused. Christianity is not for me nor me for it. There exist too many logical flaws and contradictions in The Bible. I ask theologists, priests for clarification. I get answered that it is God's will, that I should not ask a captain where the ship is heading and merely be a blind sheep. Sorry, that isn't for me. No confusion there.

And I also do not want Allah, Shiva, Krishna, Buddha, Loa Tzu as a god or deity. To me no deity exists nor needs to exist. There is an argument of saving me. I ask from what and what for? There is usually no real answers.

[void()]

Athiests and Christianity depend on each other for their survivial, one without the other would have no meaning, just like hot and cold, day and night, angels and the devils, heaven and hell.

"Wise you become young hopper of grass. Hand from stone remove."

LOL

Moderation even in moderation. You can not have perfection without imperfection, nor light without dark. The trouble being what do you call both blended together? Chaos and Order, they make a Whole. But what is the whole called? It seems many call it a deity. Why not just let it that which is, and ever will be? Does it need a name?

[love1234]

"Love one another" is of course a Jewish religious commandment that has been taught to Western peoples through the medium of Christianity, so atheists can claim no credit for the principle.

There were no Jewish people when God gave His COMMANDMENTS!!!!

The COMMANDMERNTS were given to the 12 tribes and two half tribes of Israel.
One of the tribes was called Judah.

[love1234]

"Love one another" is of course a Jewish religious commandment that has been taught to Western peoples through the medium of Christianity, so atheists can claim no credit for the principle.

The Jews and House of Judah had a little kingdom in the holy land. It was called kingom of Judea.
Genesis
48:16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name [Israel] be named on them (let Ephraim and Manasseh be called Israel), and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.
48:17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.
48:18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this [is] the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.
48:19 And his father refused, and said, I know [it], my son, I know [it]: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude (Commonwealth) of nations.
48:20 And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee [Joseph] shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.

Ephraim and Manasseh are Israel they took with them most the tribes when they left the Holy Lands or the tribes followed them. They near all left the middle east for much greener pastures "the lands of milk and honey". Their (Israel) journeys were foretold in Deuteronomy. The House of Israel and the House of Judah are not one and the same and the Jews are a whole different story I'm not going to get into.

The Jews took control of the little kingdom and stayed till Jesus cursed them and then they were scattered around the world after his crucifixion.

Now they are back in the Holy Land using a false name.

The Covenant Islands (House of Israel) in the beginning kept Gods COMMANDMENTS; LAWS; Statutes; Judgements; Economic Policy; Agricultural Policy and Diet. They just lost The Way.

[love1234]

Adam and Eve brought up in by GOD??

"The Way". God's Way or the Way Back home to Heaven.

Early followers of Jesus were call people of "The Way" or Covenant people.

[love1234]

Bible appears contradictory & is confusing, especially early books like Genesis, because of human error & it's incomplete; If you were an artist & created something you saw as beautiful, wouldn't u be focused on it? other ancient texts indicate God saw man as His greatest creation, which enraged Satan, that's why he rebelled. And why do u have such a problem w/omnipotence? I've had quite a few close encounters w/death because I've lived a hard & dangerous life & walked away feeling a higher power was keeping me alive. and free will? u don't make choices & decisions all day like the rest of us? And why r u blaming God for man's warlike nature which came about because of his free will when the Bible says eventually "swords will be turned into plowshares and man shall learn to war no more."? Maybe that's why the story of Cain&Able is in the beginning. u speak of morsels of thought but come across as confusing because ur'e confused & don't bother to search & compare; ever hear of comparative shopping?

The Older books are very complete. God created man so He would not have to destroy the souls of billions of angels. We are human beings, the beings is the soul. We are body and soul. God only really cares about the soul and it returning to Him. This is a prison planet for criminally insane angels. Its all in the Bible and now easy to find with wisdom and search engines.

[darkeyes]

Ya know love luff.. ya don have prattle a rite loada shite... still.. keeps me in giggles for 30secs in tween a class an me dinna..

[void()]

There were no Jewish people when God gave His COMMANDMENTS!!!!

The COMMANDMERNTS were given to the 12 tribes and two half tribes of Israel.
One of the tribes was called Judah.

Actually, from research brought to light via National Geographic and the History channel, the Habiru as the Hebrew were know to Egyptians, were in fact Israelites. The word Hebrew being synonymous with Israelite.

The religion of the Hebrew was in fact Judaism, further it was a proselytizing religion around the time Christ allegedly existed. Moses was Hebrew, ergo Moses was at one time likely a Jew. And he was whom The Bible declares as receiving the Ten Commandments. Yes, he did administer them to Israelites. It was he whom attained them first, nonetheless. And yes there was a tribe called Judah from Judea.

Further reference can be located on Wikipedia (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Main_Page). Wikipedia offers common knowledge and does reference, cite quite well. For that reason I do consider it a respectable source. Wikipedia does refer to The Jewish Encyclopedia (http://jewishencyclopedia.com/index.jsp). So, you may confer with it about the classification of Hebrews as Jewish.

[void()]

The Older books are very complete. God created man so He would not have to destroy the souls of billions of angels. We are human beings, the beings is the soul. We are body and soul. God only really cares about the soul and it returning to Him. This is a prison planet for criminally insane angels. Its all in the Bible and now easy to find with wisdom and search engines.

We are a substitution for angels? We are only fodder? Why does God need souls or beings? The criminally insane angels are not God's creatures, too? They are not part of the whole, a function or unit in His plan?

This is what I do with religion, philosophy, dogma. I ask questions about and of it. I do so to understand for myself, to maybe let others understand. If a person can understand then knowledge is gained. Once knowledge exists then one is granted choice.

Christianity espouses Free Will. I do not see it as existing from what I gather from Christian dogma. So, I ask questions. Learn if there is indeed a choice. Many Christians also posit one can only follow Christianity or perish in Hell. I don't believe in Hell or Heaven. Do not see a need for rewarding good moral behavior, justice. The act of such is its own reward. Accordingly, I will perish in Hell, though.

Some choice. Do as we say or suffer. Does that even work out logically as being a choice? I seek, I knock on doors ...

[ivanthemonkey]

My theology is a bit rusty, but that concept has appeared in nearly every religious and philosophic belief system back to the beginning of recorded history. There are multiple examples that predate Judaism, and other pathways by which it has entered Western thought in its codified form.

It also very likely emerges from our primate evolutionary drives towards socialization, as there is strong evidence it is in operation in chimp societies in its most basic form as the golden rule. So no one can take credit for it, it is just there in our core social processing systems, probably as a way of getting large groups of us to work together to achieve complex goals.

Man was created in God's image, so the basic principles of God's laws are inherent to mankind. The bible refers to many non-jewish/christian peoples as having the law "written on their hearts" refering to how they already obeyed the basic moral values they were teaching.

It is noteworthy that when Jesus was asked what the greatest, most important laws were he listed them as "Love God" and "love your fellow man" as being the basis of all other laws and morality in the judaic religion, and then when asked what he meant by your fellow man, he gives the account of the good samaritan who goes out of his way to help a complete stranger of a different race/religion (and who are mostly hostile to each other)

While it is a common idea in most religions and cultures (excepting for the extreme crazy ones) the focus and stress placed on loving one's fellow man, forgiveness and doing good things to each other is unique compared to most others.

[darkeyes]

... I will perish in Hell...



Cya in bar Voidie... large cognac please... an God help Hell an Auld Clootie if they have no cognac wen me turns up!!:tong: An they betta have gud air conditioning... hot cognac is not cool...:eek:

[ivanthemonkey]

The religion of the Hebrew was in fact Judaism, further it was a proselytizing religion around the time Christ allegedly existed. Moses was Hebrew, ergo Moses was at one time likely a Jew. And he was whom The Bible declares as receiving the Ten Commandments. Yes, he did administer them to Israelites. It was he whom attained them first, nonetheless. And yes there was a tribe called Judah from Judea.

King David was from the tribe of Judah and his royal line continued to rule, and so the country was refered to as the Kingdom of Judah or Judea. Orriginally the term Jew refered specifically to the Tribe of Judah and not the 12 tribes as a whole.

It was later used to refer to anyone of the kingdom of Judea, but among themselves most used the term Isrealites or refered to one's Tribe (ie a Levite


When Moses brought down the law, there was no King of Isreal, and the tribe of Judah was just another tribe, with no distinction. Moses was of the tribe of Levi.

Moses was not Jewish, He was from the tribe of Levi, not the tribe of Judah, and furthermore the Kingdom of Judea was not yet established under King David in order to refer to any of the isrealites by the national name of their country. Moses was a Levite.

[love1234]

We are a substitution for angels? We are only fodder? Why does God need souls or beings? The criminally insane angels are not God's creatures, too? They are not part of the whole, a function or unit in His plan?

This is what I do with religion, philosophy, dogma. I ask questions about and of it. I do so to understand for myself, to maybe let others understand. If a person can understand then knowledge is gained. Once knowledge exists then one is granted choice.

Christianity espouses Free Will. I do not see it as existing from what I gather from Christian dogma. So, I ask questions. Learn if there is indeed a choice. Many Christians also posit one can only follow Christianity or perish in Hell. I don't believe in Hell or Heaven. Do not see a need for rewarding good moral behavior, justice. The act of such is its own reward. Accordingly, I will perish in Hell, though.

Some choice. Do as we say or suffer. Does that even work out logically as being a choice? I seek, I knock on doors ...

I'm sure most people don't care or understand and most all people Hate the Truth.

There was a great war in Heaven. You ALL sided with satan and tried to kill God. Well you and satan lost the war.


God did not want to kill you. So He gave you a chance to change from your evil ways. You all took the chance but satan refused. God does not need you one bit and He plans on destroying billions of your souls that have lived for millions of years for the crimes against Him. There are very few that will get off this prison planet and go home to heaven like thousands will pass the great tests and return to God side in Heaven.

This is all in the Bible but most all people will not understand the messages in the Bible. With modern search engines it is much easier to find the messages in the Bible.

Jesus preached Gods will be done, Gods Law and Order here on this Prison Planet so all could go back to Heaven. Satan took over very fast after the crucifixion. This is again in the Bible for those that understand and look. Jesus started no church, but communities of believers (followers of The Way). The priest class was going to lose their easy living and the elites could not have people obeying God or they would lose their power over them. So today we have a Babylonian church system and a Babylonian market system. They do not even hide it as they ring their Babylonian bells to start their church and market systems.

The devil hides in plan sight.

Most all Christians do not follow Jesus. They follow a church and or Paul. Most all or all them are going to burn on the last day like the people that murder for fun and profit.

This is hell. You are living in hell. This is just a nice prison planet because God wants you to be happy as you work to pass the great tests to leave your prison cell. So yes it is logical you being a traitor that tried to kill God would be held on a prison planet till you reform or are executed for your treason. I pray I have helped you understand what near one understands.

By the way your prison time is about up.

ZECHARIAH 12 v 10


"And they (Jerusalem) shall look upon ME whom they pierced (whilst inside of the son of Mary body) and they (the Jews) shall MOURN for HIM (Jesus) as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."
In that Day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the Valley of Megiddon (as they too are EXECUTED for treason).

The Valley of Megiddon is below the mountains of Megiddo - Har-Megiddo or in English - Armageddon - ARMAGEDDON.

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto Me because they have thrust him through; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born. 11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. 12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart: the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; 13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of the Shimeites apart, and their wives apart; 14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et2312.htm

[love1234]

"With filth and dung have ye besmirched one another's characters until the last sign of recognition has fallen from your countenance and the mark of the beast alone remains to testify against ye."

"The eyes of man see the great acts of the Lord everywhere and the ears hear His Wonders, still he turns away from His Face and goes the way of the adversary (Lucifer - Satan). Man loves to be honoured and worshipped by the lesser breed, and revel in sins swaying the sceptre of death over his own kith and kin, in making them subjects to himself (instead of to God).

"Each generation testifies to the follies of their many creations; yea, how the mighty have fallen and their weapons of war perish; still the eyes of man are held that they cannot see abomination. Not content with the only God man sets up idols of heroes, created by fancy, and raises monuments and statues to their honour, following in the ways of corruption that all human rulers sow - for he who is with God takes no honour to himself. To God alone be Glory, even unto Him Who is our Abba, the Father of all." Jesus

[love1234]

Malachi 3:15 And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, [they that] tempt God are even saved.
3:16 Then they that feared the "I AM" spoke often one to another: and the "I AM" hearkened, and heard [it], and a Book of Remembrance was written before Him for them that feared the "I AM", and that thought upon His name (Sura 69:19-20).
3:17 And they shall be Mine, saith the "I AM" Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up My special treasure; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him (Sura 69:21-24).
3:18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth Him not (Rev. 20:12-15; 21:27).
4:1 For, behold, the Day cometh, that shall burn like an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the "I AM" Lord of hosts, that it shall leave of them neither root nor branch (nothing).
4:2 But unto you that fear My name shall the Sun of Righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in The Day that I shall do [this], saith the "I AM" Lord of hosts.
4:4 Remember ye and return to The Law of Moses My servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, [with] the Statutes and Judgments.
4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the Prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful Day of the "I AM" (Sura 43:61):
4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

[love1234]

"God is no respecter of person and takes not into account relation. God sees only the heart in which dwells the spirit [of Truth]; the prayer of the righteous He heareth and the humble in heart He instructs in the ways of safety, and counsels them into eternal excellency.

"But the sins of man, and the sins of nations have grown beyond the Tower of Babel and there is not one who may escape the terrible disaster. Not until the measure of inequities overflows the brim of Gehenna will redemption come, for jealousy and wrath must be tempered, like unto brass and be refined like gold.

"The rulers and the people who created abominations must meet in their magnified fields of self-delusion and mete out to one another the strength of their deceptions.

"God is not a God to the "Dead" but a God unto the "Living" of every land, and He bestows His blessings according to the heart and not in a measure of the vanity of leaders and deceit of rulers.

"The Lord's voice crieth unto the city, for the rich men thereof are full of violence, and the inhabitants thereof have spoken lies and their tongues are deceitful in their mouths. Though they eat they are not satisfied and though they lie down they do not gain rest. The least of them is a brier; the most upright is sharper than a thorn hedge; the day of visitation cometh and great shall be their perplexities. Trust not them who pretend to be your friends; put no confidence in a guide and keep shut the gate of thy mouth from the one that lieth at thy bosom. For at this hour the son dishonoureth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother; a man's enemies are those of his own house. Thereafter look unto the Lord, wait for the God of salvation." Jesus

[sammie19]

There is nothing more likely to switch people off from religious discussion than endless quotations of scripture.

I thank my lucky stars that I live in a country where it rarely happens in any form of life other than church or some other religious setting and if this site was a purely British bisexual one it would never happen except maybe once in a blue moon.

When I read screeds such as love 1234 posts it is no great surprise that many laugh at his ramblings, quotations and he himself, and that people are increasingly turning away from religion.

In the south of England there is a saying "You are having a laugh" used when someone says something considered not quite right in some way. I wonder if love1234 is not just a troll having a laugh or to put it another way, taking the piss. Whatever his intent, he makes himself look a fool.

[elian]

God did not want to kill you. So He gave you a chance to change from your evil ways. You all took the chance but satan refused. God does not need you one bit and He plans on destroying billions of your souls that have lived for millions of years for the crimes against Him. There are very few that will get off this prison planet and go home to heaven like thousands will pass the great tests and return to God side in Heaven.


I guess then it's time for me to have my own "laugh" as Sammie says.

This is not the loving God that *I* know love1234..if God were that malicious what is the life of one more GAY man worth to him? Why care? Why bother to ask me to stay at all?

The energy of the universe is energy and to say that any part of it is more or less deserving is to tell a river to stop flowing or a wall not to stand up..it just is. It would be nice if one day we could all just be light (again) but for now the balance (or imbalance) between dark and light serves as a catalyst to keep people moving forward..it's not always easy to witness but no amount of nagging is going to get people to act in the right way. People only change when they want to, and it was to be a pretty special change to actually change what they feel in their heart vs. just moving three steps to the left to avoid pain.

"The Devil" is the anthropological personification of everything humanity dislikes about human nature. Greed, envy, lust, temptation - "The Devil made me do it!" Yeah, not likely - more likely human beings are fallible. If he exists, he exists because we created him and he give him more power by believing that he has power.

In a dream one time a bunch of my friends thought it would be "hilarious" to conjure up my perception of "The Devil" and watch my reaction. I ended up being chased around by a hatchet wielding Jack Nicholson..of course we all know what happens to good ol' Jack in the end..

I have met "The Devil" in a dream. I didn't like his energy, didn't like being around him but to be honest with you he really does not scare me to the CORE of my BEING. "The Devil" is like the guy who TRIES to cheat at poker, badly .. If Christians think that the worst thing out there is temptation then God bless them. I HAVE met one or two entities that scared me to the CORE of my being (thankfully few and far between), "The Devil" was not one of them.

Satan of course may be a whole other thing, but I refuse to discuss it - it frustrates me to see other people capitalize off of human misery - drug dealers, drug users, wall street derivatives traders.. all things that make me sad and angry - there have been many good lives ended, misery caused for temporary gain. I don't BLAME Satan for those things though, I blame the humans who lived those lives..ultimately they are the ones responsible for their own actions. It may be like watching a train wreck, but remember - the universe does not WASTE a single drop of energy - there is no person that is a waste, and time we spend repeating the same bad actions over and over again also is not a waste - eventually you hit rock bottom and then it's time to come up <smiles>

Conversely to describe a dream experience I had once with what I thought of as Jesus - it was like getting a hug from pure love..only ever happened once - when I was very, very depressed. I do NOT think that Jesus has the martyrdom power that everyone ascribes to him, but I do believe that his spirit is very enlightened and loving. He managed to transcend both worlds, there are only a handful of beings who do that well. His message on Earth was so radically different than anything anyone had heard up to that time. He replaced "An eye for an eye" with "Love one another" .. not just anyone can do that..

The best we can do is to not look for some flaming chariot to come down out of the sky and save us from our own mess, but to remember the lessons he taught with love and live them every day to the best of our ability.

Love is the only power strong enough to confront the full adversity of what life throws our way, for you to say angry things to these people only reinforces hatred.

[csrakate]

Love is the only power strong enough to confront the full adversity of what life throws our way, for you to say angry things to these people only reinforces hatred.

Beautifully stated, Elian. As usual, you have presented your argument gently and with much thought.....and IMO, you are spot on!

[sammie19]

Elian, what I have learned in my short life is quite fundamental. Nothing I have learned or say is ever very original because I have learned it from other people, either because of their influence from talking sense, or because they have make me stop and think because of their basic greed, selfishness and unpleasantness.

I don't believe in God, but do in devils. The devils around us who are human and will hurt and even destroy us if they can. But these devils are external, and we can combat them by our own strength of spirit and fight them on our terms not theirs.

The greatest devils I have learned are the ones who reside inside each of us. These are our most dangerous devils because they emanate from our most base desires, and as such are far more difficult to fight than those we encounter outside in the world. We are able to act more easily against those who will hurt or do us harm than those within us who will do the same. Each of us also harms those we encounter and even love, because of our own devils. Even the strongest among us are quite weak when within them their devils act up. Often those we think strongest among us are anything but because of those inner devils which egg them on in ways their common sense and logic deny.

Each and every day I go through life fighting my devils in small and large ways. I say and do things which hurt people I love very deeply and can cut to the quick with a tongue which at times ought to be locked away in a box. The temptation to deceive is strong and on occasions I bow to it and those other devils hurts not only myself.

Much of this reflects what we read in the bible. But not thinking a God exists or real life horned devils I live with easily and whether a God exists, or a Satan is not something that causes me concern. I try to be the best person possible but am like everyone else; quite a weak individual who falls foul of her own personal devils far too often. I don't think I am a bad person, but like everyone else, my personal devils can make me sometimes seem that way.

[Realist]

Sammie and Elian, you are the voices of reason in a world of fanatics. Even though I was raised in a fairly religiously oppressive home, the concept of God has never soaked into my consciousness. I've never experienced an epiphany that revealed any indication that a God is real. The mysteries of life remain just that, a mystery to me.

But, you two have given me reason to think and I feel you both are good examples to consider.

Thanks for your thoughtful responses.

[void()]

I'm sure most people don't care or understand and most all people Hate the Truth.

There was a great war in Heaven. You ALL sided with satan and tried to kill God. Well you and satan lost the war.


God did not want to kill you. So He gave you a chance to change from your evil ways. You all took the chance but satan refused. God does not need you one bit and He plans on destroying billions of your souls that have lived for millions of years for the crimes against Him. There are very few that will get off this prison planet and go home to heaven like thousands will pass the great tests and return to God side in Heaven.

This is all in the Bible but most all people will not understand the messages in the Bible. With modern search engines it is much easier to find the messages in the Bible.

Jesus preached Gods will be done, Gods Law and Order here on this Prison Planet so all could go back to Heaven. Satan took over very fast after the crucifixion. This is again in the Bible for those that understand and look. Jesus started no church, but communities of believers (followers of The Way). The priest class was going to lose their easy living and the elites could not have people obeying God or they would lose their power over them. So today we have a Babylonian church system and a Babylonian market system. They do not even hide it as they ring their Babylonian bells to start their church and market systems.

The devil hides in plan sight.

Most all Christians do not follow Jesus. They follow a church and or Paul. Most all or all them are going to burn on the last day like the people that murder for fun and profit.

This is hell. You are living in hell. This is just a nice prison planet because God wants you to be happy as you work to pass the great tests to leave your prison cell. So yes it is logical you being a traitor that tried to kill God would be held on a prison planet till you reform or are executed for your treason. I pray I have helped you understand what near one understands.

By the way your prison time is about up.

ZECHARIAH 12 v 10


"And they (Jerusalem) shall look upon ME whom they pierced (whilst inside of the son of Mary body) and they (the Jews) shall MOURN for HIM (Jesus) as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."
In that Day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the Valley of Megiddon (as they too are EXECUTED for treason).

The Valley of Megiddon is below the mountains of Megiddo - Har-Megiddo or in English - Armageddon - ARMAGEDDON.

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto Me because they have thrust him through; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born. 11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. 12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart: the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; 13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of the Shimeites apart, and their wives apart; 14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et2312.htm


"There was a great war in Heaven. You ALL sided with satan and tried to kill God. Well you and satan lost the war."

Alright. First let me pose some serious questions to you.

Was I in Heaven?

Are you sure?

Were you there?

Can you attest that I personally stood fast and gave cry of havoc to kill this God thing?

If you can bear witness to my doing this, then you sir are a liar. Not one of us was in Heaven at the time. And everyone knows God's loathing of liars.
You 'bear false witness'.

Secondly, I am not Adam nor kin to him. I'm probably one of 'other people' who lived around the time Eden was zoned out by your silly God thing. Why must I be obliged to follow Adam's rules, pay his debt? Why pay for Satan when your God created Satan? This is illogical. I didn't create it. Why must I be burdened with the responsibility of it? It is plain out bull manure.

Fran, the pub known as Tiny Tim's is a great one down there. They got any poison you need, eternally on tap. I'll probably be found off in the back corner entertaining notions of selling bake ovens to the locals, while nursing pint after pint of rum and enjoying the squiggling on my lap. I'll tell Tiny to keep a table open fer ya, send ya'll a round or few on me or on Neil Pert. :)

[pepperjack]

Adam and Eve brought up in by GOD??

"Your religious calling was written on plates of stone by the flaming finger of an angry God. Our religion was established by the traditions of our ancestors and given to them in the silent hours of the night by the Great Spirit. And the premonitions of the Learned Beings it is written in the hearts of our people, thus: we do not require churches-which would only lead us to argue about God. We do not wish this. Earthly things may be argued about with men, but we never argue over God. And the thought that white men should rule over nature and change its ways following his liking was never understood by the red man. Our belief is that the Great Spirit has created all things, not just mankind, but all animals, all plants, all rocks....all on earth and amongst the stars with true soul. For us, all life is holy. But you do not understand our prayers when we address the sun, moon and winds. You have judged us without understanding. Only because our prayers are different. But we are able to live in harmony with all of nature. All of nature is within us and we are part of all nature. Chief White Cloud

[Long Duck Dong]

"Your religious calling was written on plates of stone by the flaming finger of an angry God. Our religion was established by the traditions of our ancestors and given to them in the silent hours of the night by the Great Spirit. And the premonitions of the Learned Beings it is written in the hearts of our people, thus: we do not require churches-which would only lead us to argue about God. We do not wish this. Earthly things may be argued about with men, but we never argue over God. And the thought that white men should rule over nature and change its ways following his liking was never understood by the red man. Our belief is that the Great Spirit has created all things, not just mankind, but all animals, all plants, all rocks....all on earth and amongst the stars with true soul. For us, all life is holy. But you do not understand our prayers when we address the sun, moon and winds. You have judged us without understanding. Only because our prayers are different. But we are able to live in harmony with all of nature. All of nature is within us and we are part of all nature. Chief White Cloud

YES...... oh yes oh yes.....

[pepperjack]

The Older books are very complete. God created man so He would not have to destroy the souls of billions of angels. We are human beings, the beings is the soul. We are body and soul. God only really cares about the soul and it returning to Him. This is a prison planet for criminally insane angels. Its all in the Bible and now easy to find with wisdom and search engines.

Oh really? Very complete? What about the Book of Enoch then, very detailed and prophetic, found within the Dead Sea Scrolls?:rolleyes:

[pepperjack]

We are a substitution for angels? We are only fodder? Why does God need souls or beings? The criminally insane angels are not God's creatures, too? They are not part of the whole, a function or unit in His plan?

This is what I do with religion, philosophy, dogma. I ask questions about and of it. I do so to understand for myself, to maybe let others understand. If a person can understand then knowledge is gained. Once knowledge exists then one is granted choice.

Christianity espouses Free Will. I do not see it as existing from what I gather from Christian dogma. So, I ask questions. Learn if there is indeed a choice. Many Christians also posit one can only follow Christianity or perish in Hell. I don't believe in Hell or Heaven. Do not see a need for rewarding good moral behavior, justice. The act of such is its own reward. Accordingly, I will perish in Hell, though.

Some choice. Do as we say or suffer. Does that even work out logically as being a choice? I seek, I knock on doors ...

You say you will perish in hell after claiming it doesn't exist. Huh? You question, ponder, seek understanding which leads to gaining knowledge, which creates choices, the exercise of which is free will, which you also deny exists. Increased knowledge leads to heightened awareness, not denial.

[sammie19]

You say you will perish in hell after claiming it doesn't exist. Huh? You question, ponder, seek understanding which leads to gaining knowledge, which creates choices, the exercise of which is free will, which you also deny exists. Increased knowledge leads to heightened awareness, not denial.

Fran has a theory, although she says it is more than a theory, that every word we say, thought which comes into our head, and act we perform as well as every single thing which happens to us was always going to be. She too claims that there is no such thing as free will. She claims it because our fate is predetermined and we cannot avoid it. She calls it the "illusion of free will" and nothing is avoidable, but everything is unavoidable.

I have to admit it has some sense to it, because whatever happens always was going to happen. It must be because it has happened. But somehow it doesnt seem quite true in my mind and makes me question whether destiny shapes our lives or whether we shape our destiny and just how much free will we actually have or whether what goes on around us makes us speak, act and think as we do and that we have little real control over it.

It makes my head hurt sometimes trying to get to grips with the question and believe that it doesnt matter if a God exists or not, we are faced with exactly the same questions.

[pepperjack]

Fran has a theory, although she says it is more than a theory, that every word we say, thought which comes into our head, and act we perform as well as every single thing which happens to us was always going to be. She too claims that there is no such thing as free will. She claims it because our fate is predetermined and we cannot avoid it. She calls it the "illusion of free will" and nothing is avoidable, but everything is unavoidable.

I have to admit it has some sense to it, because whatever happens always was going to happen. It must be because it has happened. But somehow it doesnt seem quite true in my mind and makes me question whether destiny shapes our lives or whether we shape our destiny and just how much free will we actually have or whether what goes on around us makes us speak, act and think as we do and that we have little real control over it.

It makes my head hurt sometimes trying to get to grips with the question and believe that it doesnt matter if a God exists or not, we are faced with exactly the same questions.

Even theologians struggle with concepts of predestination & foreordination; God is mysterious to me, difficult to comprehend at times, but I have concrete reasons for believing in His reality; I'm open-minded to what you're saying because of a spiritual experience I had last spring during the time of my mother's death. The Bible says that in the end times Satan shall have great power to deceive and also counsels to "trust in the Lord with all thine heart and lean not unto thine own understanding." I have read that choices determine character, which determines destiny. Makes sense to me.

[void()]

You say you will perish in hell after claiming it doesn't exist. Huh? You question, ponder, seek understanding which leads to gaining knowledge, which creates choices, the exercise of which is free will, which you also deny exists. Increased knowledge leads to heightened awareness, not denial.

My points exactly. Which leaves me donning a response of "duh", to most Christians whom do deny these points. They refuse comprehending such things and only rant, "you'll burn in hell you evil sinner!"

I don't believe in Hell. So, it has no effect for me. I have knowledge and know there are choices. But the fanatical Bible thumping evangelic assails one with, "God knows everything you'll ever choose, even before you existed." According to that logic, Free Will or Choice doesn't exist. Why bother?

Hopefully, you can understand these points and my humble, albeit a bit colored view of Christian lunacy. I genuinely do have a few friends whom are of the Faith. These friends though, do not cram their beliefs down my throat. And I don't cram mine down theirs. We agree to respectfully disagree about a few points. There are many upon which we do agree regardless.

Think we've fairly blathered enough here about religion. Anyone else seeking discourse on it may find alt.talk.origins (news://alt.talk.origins)
a more preferred forum. For my part, no more discussion here. Thanks.

[pepperjack]

My points exactly. Which leaves me donning a response of "duh", to most Christians whom do deny these points. They refuse comprehending such things and only rant, "you'll burn in hell you evil sinner!"

I don't believe in Hell. So, it has no effect for me. I have knowledge and know there are choices. But the fanatical Bible thumping evangelic assails one with, "God knows everything you'll ever choose, even before you existed." According to that logic, Free Will or Choice doesn't exist. Why bother?

Hopefully, you can understand these points and my humble, albeit a bit colored view of Christian lunacy. I genuinely do have a few friends whom are of the Faith. These friends though, do not cram their beliefs down my throat. And I don't cram mine down theirs. We agree to respectfully disagree about a few points. There are many upon which we do agree regardless.

Think we've fairly blathered enough here about religion. Anyone else seeking discourse on it may find alt.talk.origins (news://alt.talk.origins)
a more preferred forum. For my part, no more discussion here. Thanks.
I know u said no more discussion but I just want to say I DO understand ur points, because I share some of them; that is why I am nondenominational; I have a problem w/organized religion,just as u; I do believe, & don't feel like I'm cramming my beliefs down anyone's throat; I only respond when I perceive someone is attacking God unfairly; I was just disagreeing with your logic, & I thought respectfully so; I also have knowledge; I question & ponder the afterlife also; It's just that when u reduced The Almighty to "it", I became disturbed.

[Annika L]

Fran has a theory, although she says it is more than a theory, that every word we say, thought which comes into our head, and act we perform as well as every single thing which happens to us was always going to be. She too claims that there is no such thing as free will. She claims it because our fate is predetermined and we cannot avoid it. She calls it the "illusion of free will" and nothing is avoidable, but everything is unavoidable.

I have to admit it has some sense to it, because whatever happens always was going to happen. It must be because it has happened. But somehow it doesnt seem quite true in my mind and makes me question whether destiny shapes our lives or whether we shape our destiny and just how much free will we actually have or whether what goes on around us makes us speak, act and think as we do and that we have little real control over it.

It makes my head hurt sometimes trying to get to grips with the question and believe that it doesnt matter if a God exists or not, we are faced with exactly the same questions.

Her "theory" is a natural consequence of the laws of physics. If you believe that gravity and mass influence the movements of particles, and you believe that electricity follows paths of least resistance, etc., then the particles in my fingers (influenced in part by my muscles, which obey electrical influences from my brain...any "decision" I "make" can't alter that flow of electricity!) are simply obeying natural laws and it is indeed pre-ordained that they will cause these words to appear. And yes, it is a convenient fiction that I create, a story I tell myself, to say that I decided to say this.

In fact, a growing body of psychological research is establishing this very fact: a person whose brain impulses are being monitored is told to press a button whenever they are ready to do so...they make their decision and press the button. But the record of their brain impluses shows that their brain is sending the signal to their finger to move before the part of the brain that makes decisions is activated...so they "make the decision" to press the button only AFTER they've already started to press it!

Ah, humans are such adept storytellers!

[darkeyes]

Kismet, Annika.. thats me point and that is unavoidable... nothing we do now will change a single thing that we are destined to do or that is to be our fate.. what is was always going to be, and what will be is set and unchangable..

Does it mean we sit back and do nothing and take it on the chin? No.. we are microbes.. a part of the great cosmic game and interact with all and everything around and have our part to play, but if we did, that was always going to be too..:)

[Annika L]

Kismet, Annika.. thats me point and that is unavoidable... nothing we do now will change a single thing that we are destined to do or that is to be our fate.. what is was always going to be, and what will be is set and unchangable..

Does it mean we sit back and do nothing and take it on the chin? No.. we are microbes.. a part of the great cosmic game and interact with all and everything around and have our part to play, but if we did, that was always going to be too..:)

Call it what you will...put whatever story to it makes the most sense to you. I'm just saying that there is scientific evidence for what Sam described as your theory.

But I agree that this fact does not mean that we should (or indeed *can*) just sit back and abdicate control...apparently, the storytelling is part of those inevitable electrical flows. Just as both our hardware and our software are wired to create stories, we are also hardwired and programmed to believe stories, and carry them out.

And right now, my storytelling apparatus is suggesting that I might go make dinner.

[elian]

A year ago I was in despair. I was thinking about how even though I've never finished a whole beer in my entire life, drugs and drink had pretty much taken everyone I loved away from me. I was thinking about what I IMAGINED life would be like assuming that my mother would divorce my stepdad and move across country. I was sad and crying.

A lady I trust with my life said simply to me - "Everything happens for a reason". Hearing her say that, knowing what she knows and how deeply she cares and that she DOES NOT LIE, I was just struck dumbfounded because my ideas about predestination were forced to change in a matter of minutes. It called into question my whole idea of what it means and does not mean to have free will.

She very cleverly did NOT say anything about free will.

I was in such despair and fear and pity for myself I could not see that sometimes the best thing is NOT to have control. As it turns out even our pain helps us along. If my father had NOT passed away I would have never gotten to know the rest of family on his side. My parents did divorce (again) but both of them have found someone else to love and are much happier. They were together when they needed safety and stability to be together but after 7 years their relationship was more like brother and sister and it was time to move on I guess.

Who ever said that having power for the sake of having power was the best thing in the world? As a matter of fact I can pretty much guarantee that we often DON'T have the full control that we all think we want because there are other people all around us constantly making decisions that ALSO effect our lives.

People assume that not having free will means we don't have any input at all but what if that was not true. What if you could aspire to be your best self, your highest self, without physical limitations, no time, no space and see a younger version of yourself here. If you could reach across time and space and see what is really going on in the world what would you choose to teach that younger self in your next lifetime? Would you teach yourself about justice, compassion?

If you chose justice skip ahead to page 42
If you chose compassion skip ahead to page 50

The experiences we go through here may seem painful and indeed cause pain..I know it's probably a stretch to get you to believe that the intention is good..but look at my examples - a divorce isn't ALWAYS a bad thing even though it can bring pain. The death of a loved one..well..

Whether things are planned out or spontaneous I'm not sure it makes that much difference from the human perspective..when you start from scratch knowing very little and you learn lessons in life by bumping into things it ALL seems spontaneous. The journey has just as much value either way.

I choose to believe that the universe is not sterile but responsive and compassionate, or at least a lot of the beings in it are that way, as true to their nature as they can be.

It certainly is NOT going to be all roses but enjoy your life to the best of your ability, celebrate and honor your life for the gift that it is, celebrate it with others, celebrate THEIR lives - we all need the support of one another - bumping around blindly in the dark is a hell of a way to live.

[goldenfinger]

here is some truth,,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6edqRgDYg0&feature=related

[Annika L]

Hi Elian. For the record, please do not think that anything I said above implies or indicates a belief that the universe is sterile or uncompassionate. The trick to realizing these things about the universe is living with the seeming spiritual contradictions. The universe *could* be cold and uncaring...matter and energy acting in accord with physical laws doesn't *require* sentience...but that doesn't mean that the universe *is* cold, uncaring, or non-sentient.

In fact, I'm quite sure the universe is sentient and compassionate (although on average, it is actually pretty cold). Maybe I'm wrong and this is just the story I'm telling myself...but by golly it's my story and I'm sticking to it! :tong:

[void()]

I know u said no more discussion but I just want to say I DO understand ur points, because I share some of them; that is why I am nondenominational; I have a problem w/organized religion,just as u; I do believe, & don't feel like I'm cramming my beliefs down anyone's throat; I only respond when I perceive someone is attacking God unfairly; I was just disagreeing with your logic, & I thought respectfully so; I also have knowledge; I question & ponder the afterlife also; It's just that when u reduced The Almighty to "it", I became disturbed.

Please accept my apologies for that reduction. That was uncalled for on part and the only justification I may offer is being human, feeling really backed into a corner. Normally do enjoy logical, mature debate on many subjects.

Reducing the idea of God, was possibly indeed bordering on a personal attack. It could been seen as such due to vast personal investment/s many individuals place in God. I should have presented more respect.

Respect though, is a three way virtue. Person A needs to respect person B. Person B needs to respect person A. They both must oblige what is in our society called common respect. And person A or B can be groups of persons or entities.

I am not saying you were being disrespectful. In fact you were being highly respectable while offering me challenges to my thinking and opinion. Others may not have been so respectful. I generalized and lashed back. This was my error and in being amicable in realizing it, I withdrew from debate. Again, my humbled apologies for assailing the person rather than idea.

It will not happen again, for I will now continue refraining from such debate. Much has been elaborated by both sides of the debate elsewhere by much wiser and with far more grace. I encourage others to seek it out for their own private reference. I will debate this subject no further.

To be clear my withdraw does not mean the arguments or questions I posited are faulty. It means that being human I erred in presenting them articulately without engaging in personal attack, chose to not further continue such action and apologized for doing so. Simple terms, I was and still am quite angry over the disrespect others present, dropped the ball.

"Silly trolls be gone and silent when adults converse."

[elian]

I'm not OFFENDED by anything any of you wrote, I have no monopoly on what is "true", I am only the sum of my experiences, I only can tell you about those experiences and yes, like other humans I enjoy writing and telling stories. My experience is "true" in the sense that I believe I experienced it, that is all I can prove.

I don't deny love1234's assertion that this ultimately is a place for training, although it sells the world and everything above and below it short to call it a "prison". There are a lot of wicked things that happen here, we DO abuse the land, we DO abuse each other but there is also much beauty. The reason the world seems more evil is because evil advertises more, good on the other hand mostly does its work in silence.

[darkeyes]

One of my colleagues at work, a RME teacher brought this to my attention today.. I'm not that sure it is pertinent exactly to the debate but it is interesting in that it appears that there is an increase in unbelieving in the fair land of America... I post the link without comment but it is an interesting piece..

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/01/atheism-america-religious-right

[goldenfinger]

One of my colleagues at work, a RME teacher brought this to my attention today.. I'm not that sure it is pertinent exactly to the debate but it is interesting in that it appears that there is an increase in unbelieving in the fair land of America... I post the link without comment but it is an interesting piece..

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/01/atheism-america-religious-right

"Coming out" as an atheist is like coming out as a "none straight" person, fear of what others will say and do to you.The more high profile people coming out in the US, the more people will follow.
I have jut spend a lot of time on Youtube watching all kinds of crazy videos about religious debates, and Im sad to say, most of them are from the US.
The so called free country is not so free at all.
Bless America for having people like Fred Phelp, Tommy Davis, you truley deserve them.

[pepperjack]

"Coming out" as an atheist is like coming out as a "none straight" person, fear of what others will say and do to you.The more high profile people coming out in the US, the more people will follow.
I have jut spend a lot of time on Youtube watching all kinds of crazy videos about religious debates, and Im sad to say, most of them are from the US.
The so called free country is not so free at all.
Bless America for having people like Fred Phelp, Tommy Davis, you truley deserve them.

ur rite! America is in decline! I'ts sad , dismal, but based on prophecy; Bank of America, country's largest bank, came knocking on my door this morning, taking me to court over property that isn't even my legal responsibility; Winston Churchill..."these are the times that try men's souls..".

[elian]

"Coming out" as an atheist is like coming out as a "none straight" person, fear of what others will say and do to you.The more high profile people coming out in the US, the more people will follow.
I have jut spend a lot of time on Youtube watching all kinds of crazy videos about religious debates, and Im sad to say, most of them are from the US.
The so called free country is not so free at all.
Bless America for having people like Fred Phelp, Tommy Davis, you truley deserve them.

Yeah but what you don't understand is the cool thing about Fred Phelps (the ONLY cool thing) is that he deviates soo far from normal that anywhere he goes he ends up being a catalyst for people to gather in support of compassion, unity and love. We've been protested a few times by his "church" - it's usually their 5 or 6 people holding up ridiculous signs (mostly his children) to our 100-200 people holding up a rainbow flag, celebrating diversity, unity, compassion and love. OR - wonderful people who ride around the country showing their support for our fallen soldiers. This is a supposedly conservative area and for 100 people to gather openly to support gay rights is something i never really expected to see.

The Westboro Baptist "church" isn't trying to save or convert anybody, in their eyes the louder they scream the more righteous they are in the eyes of God, it's actually a pretty selfish "ministry" in that respect but I guess everything serves a purpose...oops, sorry - more predestination vs. free will seeping through there. <grins>

Actually I am glad that he IS so far from normal if all they said was "God Hates Fags" and not "Thank God for 9/11" - then I'm not so sure how many people around here would be up in arms.

[sammie19]

"Coming out" as an atheist is like coming out as a "none straight" person, fear of what others will say and do to you.The more high profile people coming out in the US, the more people will follow.
I have jut spend a lot of time on Youtube watching all kinds of crazy videos about religious debates, and Im sad to say, most of them are from the US.
The so called free country is not so free at all.
Bless America for having people like Fred Phelp, Tommy Davis, you truley deserve them.

I don't remember coming out as such in the way you mean. My agnosticism or athiesm call it what you like grew organically from within my own rationality.

My mother was and is a methodist and regular church goer, but never demanded I believe in God, but I did when little. As I grew up faith in God just kind of left me. There was no great investigation nor was their any criticism from mum because to her faith is a personal thing to everyone.

There is some paranoia about the increasing number of Islamic people who are in this country, and here in Scotland religious prejudice remains between some protestants and catholics which reflects what Northern Ireland is like and has much to do with it, but that seems to have more to do with two football teams in the west than actual religion.

Here in the east there is a smaller less intense protestant/catholic issue over Edinburgh's two football teams in the same way, but having lived in Scotland for 6 years now, for the huge majority of people, the religion of their neighbours and friends is not an issue.

It is even less of an issue for most people in the south. People are uncomfortable with vociferous religous anything and prefer to live their lives by just getting on with them.

Most people do believe in God everywhere in the UK, but whether they do or don't, most live with what they find.

[goldenfinger]

I don't remember coming out as such in the way you mean. My agnosticism or athiesm call it what you like grew organically from within my own rationality.

My mother was and is a methodist and regular church goer, but never demanded I believe in God, but I did when little. As I grew up faith in God just kind of left me. There was no great investigation nor was their any criticism from mum because to her faith is a personal thing to everyone.

There is some paranoia about the increasing number of Islamic people who are in this country, and here in Scotland religious prejudice remains between some protestants and catholics which reflects what Northern Ireland is like and has much to do with it, but that seems to have more to do with two football teams in the west than actual religion.




Here in the east there is a smaller less intense protestant/catholic issue over Edinburgh's two football teams in the same way, but having lived in Scotland for 6 years now, for the huge majority of people, the religion of their neighbours and friends is not an issue.

It is even less of an issue for most people in the south. People are uncomfortable with vociferous religous anything and prefer to live their lives by just getting on with them.

Most people do believe in God everywhere in the UK, but whether they do or don't, most live with what they find.

Here is what I was talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uazHajo574

[pepperjack]

Yeah but what you don't understand is the cool thing about Fred Phelps (the ONLY cool thing) is that he deviates soo far from normal that anywhere he goes he ends up being a catalyst for people to gather in support of compassion, unity and love. We've been protested a few times by his "church" - it's usually their 5 or 6 people holding up ridiculous signs (mostly his children) to our 100-200 people holding up a rainbow flag, celebrating diversity, unity, compassion and love. OR - wonderful people who ride around the country showing their support for our fallen soldiers. This is a supposedly conservative area and for 100 people to gather openly to support gay rights is something i never really expected to see.

The Westboro Baptist "church" isn't trying to save or convert anybody, in their eyes the louder they scream the more righteous they are in the eyes of God, it's actually a pretty selfish "ministry" in that respect but I guess everything serves a purpose...oops, sorry - more predestination vs. free will seeping through there. <grins>

Actually I am glad that he IS so far from normal if all they said was "God Hates Fags" and not "Thank God for 9/11" - then I'm not so sure how many people around here would be up in arms.
Elian, how can u even use the word ministry with him? He's all about judgement, hatred & extreme homophobia, a complete embarrassment to the state of Kansas, hailing from the capitol, no less. And yes, everything serves a purpose for " In all things the Lord works together for good..." Do ya suppose that's where the expression " every dark cloud has a silver lining" might have originated from? Also kind of demystifies predestination vs. free will.

[elian]

Yes, I'm sorry you can't hear the sarcasm in my voice when I say the word "ministry".

If you consider that America was essentially founded by people seeking "religious freedom", shopkeeps who thought they could turn a profit and people the King of England banished here is it any wonder? Maybe that isn't a true comparison though because I am forgetting about the millions of immigrants and the indigenous people.

I've talked this topic to death already - I just got a note in my Email yesterday that was an urgent notice from a counselor looking to place a foreign exchange student with a new host family. Apparently the 15 year old boy came out while he was here and is no longer welcome by his original host family due to his "disease" .. I wish the hatred and bigotry would end..if these people are such "good Christians" then why can't they see when God brings a lesson straight to their doorstep?

..I know a lot of good Christians who simply try to live their lives using the parables Jesus taught, but some people scare me..I listened to this interview on the radio, which I thought was more than a bit scary.. http://www.npr.org/2011/10/03/140946482/apostolic-leader-weighs-religions-role-in-politics

[aisuhi]

Of all the creatures God created past and present, humans are the only ones who have regrets. I feel many things in the bible are fact written as such. Many things are stories to teach morals. All written by the appointed people of Gods choosing. How many of the stories were lost or modified by translation? With all the varibles in life, including present life with computers, mistakes are made. Now, how do we know what the true religion of God is? To be honsest we will have to really wait until the end of times to find out. Each religion has their own Idea of the begining. I have studies on several religions, all except muslim, all of the religions have a very simular origin, different stories with the same meaning, and simular ends. If we were to truely compare each, we might find that out of all of the religions, they are all variations of the same. Example is; the christian bible states and eye for an eye.(though I cant remember where) In the muslim tradition,(what what little I know) to kill is wrong, however if you destroy yourself in the process its ok. Ie an eye for an eye. See the simularity. Go ahead and study these things your self. I will say this The religions are generally not bad in themselves. Its the messengers and the translations they make them bad.
Buddha was not a christian, but Jesus would have made a good buddhist.

remember that the chicken is involved in breakfast, but, the pig is totally commited.

[goldenfinger]

Yeah but what you don't understand is the cool thing about Fred Phelps (the ONLY cool thing) is that he deviates soo far from normal that anywhere he goes he ends up being a catalyst for people to gather in support of compassion, unity and love. We've been protested a few times by his "church" - it's usually their 5 or 6 people holding up ridiculous signs (mostly his children) to our 100-200 people holding up a rainbow flag, celebrating diversity, unity, compassion and love. OR - wonderful people who ride around the country showing their support for our fallen soldiers. This is a supposedly conservative area and for 100 people to gather openly to support gay rights is something i never really expected to see.

The Westboro Baptist "church" isn't trying to save or convert anybody, in their eyes the louder they scream the more righteous they are in the eyes of God, it's actually a pretty selfish "ministry" in that respect but I guess everything serves a purpose...oops, sorry - more predestination vs. free will seeping through there. <grins>

Actually I am glad that he IS so far from normal if all they said was "God Hates Fags" and not "Thank God for 9/11" - then I'm not so sure how many people around here would be up in arms.

I was trying to post this link in my reply, but my internet was running slow,
so here is a interview with Nate Phelps.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC6tQ48qbAc

[pepperjack]

Yes, I'm sorry you can't hear the sarcasm in my voice when I say the word "ministry".

If you consider that America was essentially founded by people seeking "religious freedom", shopkeeps who thought they could turn a profit and people the King of England banished here is it any wonder? Maybe that isn't a true comparison though because I am forgetting about the millions of immigrants and the indigenous people.

I've talked this topic to death already - I just got a note in my Email yesterday that was an urgent notice from a counselor looking to place a foreign exchange student with a new host family. Apparently the 15 year old boy came out while he was here and is no longer welcome by his original host family due to his "disease" .. I wish the hatred and bigotry would end..if these people are such "good Christians" then why can't they see when God brings a lesson straight to their doorstep?

..I know a lot of good Christians who simply try to live their lives using the parables Jesus taught, but some people scare me..I listened to this interview on the radio, which I thought was more than a bit scary.. http://www.npr.org/2011/10/03/140946482/apostolic-leader-weighs-religions-role-in-politics

speaking of colonial America, I recently discovered a bizarre fact about MA when it was one of the original 13 colonies; apparently it actually passed a law that would allow the parents of a rebellious and troublesome son to have him put to death! Can u imagine this scenario...." You're not grounded buddy...you've got the death penalty."? Bespeaks of the Puritans, no? Guess ur 15 year old's fate would be sealed in that environment.

[love1234]

There is nothing more likely to switch people off from religious discussion than endless quotations of scripture.

I thank my lucky stars that I live in a country where it rarely happens in any form of life other than church or some other religious setting and if this site was a purely British bisexual one it would never happen except maybe once in a blue moon.

When I read screeds such as love 1234 posts it is no great surprise that many laugh at his ramblings, quotations and he himself, and that people are increasingly turning away from religion.

In the south of England there is a saying "You are having a laugh" used when someone says something considered not quite right in some way. I wonder if love1234 is not just a troll having a laugh or to put it another way, taking the piss. Whatever his intent, he makes himself look a fool.
All I did was explain the Bible and quote Jesus Christ. So you sit here and call the Bible and Jesus foolish. OK.

[love1234]

There is nothing more likely to switch people off from religious discussion than endless quotations of scripture.

I thank my lucky stars that I live in a country where it rarely happens in any form of life other than church or some other religious setting and if this site was a purely British bisexual one it would never happen except maybe once in a blue moon.

When I read screeds such as love 1234 posts it is no great surprise that many laugh at his ramblings, quotations and he himself, and that people are increasingly turning away from religion.

In the south of England there is a saying "You are having a laugh" used when someone says something considered not quite right in some way. I wonder if love1234 is not just a troll having a laugh or to put it another way, taking the piss. Whatever his intent, he makes himself look a fool.


Most people on this earth have never read the quotes I put on here from Jesus. I would think most people would like reading them as I enjoy reading the words of Jesus so much.

"With filth and dung have ye besmirched one another's characters until the last sign of recognition has fallen from your countenance and the mark of the beast alone remains to testify against ye."

[sammie19]

All I did was explain the Bible and quote Jesus Christ. So you sit here and call the Bible and Jesus foolish. OK.

I have not called either foolish. Religion is a deeply personal thing and the fact that I have none does not mean that I am unable to respect the beliefs of others. What I find extremely disturbing is being ranted at and having endless quotations thrown in my face.

In this country we are much more reserved about our innermost beliefs and are uncomfortable with those such as you. It is the manner in which you present yourself on this site to which I referred and it is that manner which I said made you personally look a fool.

[sammie19]

Most people on this earth have never read the quotes I put on here from Jesus. I would think most people would like reading them as I enjoy reading the words of Jesus so much.



Maybe it is just me, but I think you may not be quite right in what you say here.

[elian]

One time I read a tiny little book called "The Gospel according to Jesus" by Stephen Mitchell. It was worth reading. http://www.amazon.com/Gospel-According-Jesus-Translation-Unbelievers/dp/0060923210

Of course, I also read:

"What would Buddha Do?" http://www.amazon.com/What-Would-Buddha-Do-Dilemmas/dp/1569752982/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1317907336&sr=1-1

"The Way of Akido" http://www.amazon.com/Way-Aikido-Lessons-American-Sensei/dp/0452279720/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1317907372&sr=1-1

and

"Walk in Balance" http://www.amazon.com/Walk-Balance-Healthy-Harmonious-Living/dp/0671765647/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1317907412&sr=1-2

but my favorite right now is:

http://www.amazon.com/Lovingkindness-Revolutionary-Happiness-Shambhala-Classics/dp/157062903X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1317907617&sr=1-1

I think the observation about Jesus being into Eastern Thought is correct in some ways. A few years ago many Christians were reading Rick Warren's book "A Purpose Driven Life". When I read parts of the book I got the distinct impression it was translating concepts of Eastern Religion into language and symbolism that was familiar to people practicing western thought.

The top six world religions all practice the "Golden Rule", and to be honest I have settled on the common denominator of "God is Love". It doesn't take away from Atheist and Humanist folks who would much rather just live in the world as they directly perceive it and it reminds that we can be greater than the sum of our parts when we give love to one another.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_cIhnUEEng

What evangelical people ought to remember is that when Atheist and Humanist folks choose to live by interacting directly with this world, well - God MADE this world right? So they ARE acting in a natural and perfect way with God (or the universe or whatever you want to call it). I wouldn't be so concerned with people burning for not knowing a particular ideology.

[pepperjack]

Maybe it is just me, but I think you may not be quite right in what you say here.

It's not just you sammie; your assessment of 1234 is correct; I don't see him/her explainng anything but rather twisting & distorting.

[goldenfinger]

Maybe it is just me, but I think you may not be quite right in what you say here.

There is no book of Jesus, it's what "others" think "they" heard him say, hence the begining of misinterpetation, and on it goes.

[love1234]

I have not called either foolish. Religion is a deeply personal thing and the fact that I have none does not mean that I am unable to respect the beliefs of others. What I find extremely disturbing is being ranted at and having endless quotations thrown in my face.

In this country we are much more reserved about our innermost beliefs and are uncomfortable with those such as you. It is the manner in which you present yourself on this site to which I referred and it is that manner which I said made you personally look a fool.
I see no endless quotations in this thread and no one is tossing them in your face. We all can chose to read or not read any part or any thread.

If the truth bothers you do not read or listen to it. I have truned off the truth more times than I can count.

[love1234]

Maybe it is just me, but I think you may not be quite right in what you say here.
How.

The Gospel of Thomas was hidden from the people on this earth for near 2000 years. There was a few scraps that were not destroyed by the roman church, priest class and elites and near no one was allowed to even look at these scraps.

In the 1940s a Egypt library was found buried in the ground. Some of It was about Jesus, His followers the early community. The Gospel of Thomas was complete in this library and matched the scraps that near no one was allowed to read.

This is one of the main reasons it was destroyed in my opinion.

2:17 Jesus said to them: If you fast (ritually), you will beget sin for yourselves, and if you pray (in churches), you will be condemned, and if you give alms (to the churches), you will do evil to your spirits. And if you go into any land and wander in the regions, if they receive you, eat what they set before you, heal the sick among them.

Jesus was anti church. No churches no power and control of weak minds no easy life for the priest class.

So please tell me what book or books did you read my quotes of Jesus Christ in?
I would like to read these books or book.

You can see The Gospel Thomas with these words in Matthew would have stopped churches for any true follower of Jesus Christ.

6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen by them: otherwise ye have NO reward from your Father which is in heaven.
6:2 Therefore when thou doest [thine] alms, do NOT sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites DO in the churches and in the streets, that they may have glory from MEN. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6:3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
6:4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret Himself shall reward thee openly.
6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt NOT be as the hypocrites [ARE]: for they love to pray standing in the churches and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and WHEN THOU HAST SHUT THY DOOR, pray to thy Father in private; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

[darkeyes]

Ho hum love me luffly.. you don't half go on.. an d on..and on...and on...

...not a very interesting person are u?

[Hephaestion]

Isn't it marvelous?

There are bits and pieces of verbage which are discovered every so often and all of a sudden there are new truths which alter that which happened to a new definition. It's a bit like politicians arguing - no real facts at all.

Of course, it is now well accepted that anything that Hollywood produces with a historical perspective is the definitive reality. One shall avoid the capture of the German Enigma machine in WW2! Take something absurd such as the gunfight at noon between bod A and bod B in cowboy movies. The spurs, the holster, the hat and the "snake eyes" (Little Big Man) There is a flash of movement and someone is the winner - "A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do" (a John Wayne character).

All's fine until one recalls the TV interview in yesteryear with what was probably the last 'Wild West' marshall still living at the time. His account of a typical gunfight was a touch different. Holsterd guns were an impediment. Guns were usually carried in the pocket of a button up jumper. The men would face each other, walk towards each other and start firing; the sun's position irrelevant at high noon and with hats. The inaccuracy of the pistols used, their trembling and personal angst contributing to the inaccuracy often resulted in both men emptying their guns without hitting each other. Such was their relief that when they met in the middle, they'd both decide to bury their differences and get drunk with each other. If anyone was by chance hit then it didn't matter whether it was a somatic hit or rather an appendage. The shock of the hit usually killed. Similarly, knocking someone out usually resulted in their permanent incapacity or death (also the real UK Great Train robbery and the engine driver). Neither situation allowed the 'hero' to recapture the situation with a suitable neat bandage applied.

Back to the thread. Where is the mention of physics, the stability of the C-H bond and ultimately stellar and biological evolution with realistic time scales?

Science does allow for the concept of a deity, to some extent depending on what one's interpretation of such an entity is. The fundamental accommodating formula(e) and scientific practices have been used time and again. There is also accommodation of the concept of 'without faith I am nothing'.

Historically? I'll go with - there was a brave man called the annointed one ("O Christos" means exactly that) suggesting it would be good to be nice to one another. I will also accept him being nailed to most likely a wooden cross so as to end his troublesome (earthly) existence. Many thought that his suggestions were a nice idea and decided to follow his example of good intentions.

The rest is down to fad and politics.

'....There are those that said that coming down out of the trees was a not a good idea. While others said that coming out of the sea was an even worse move....' (paraphrase HHGTTG).

Wouldn't it be really great if we turned out to be some entity's science project.

That said, (Clinton) Richard Dawkins should be buggered with an unlubricated barbed wired pole. He has no right to rob people of their comfort in their faiths.

Repeat

Science does allow for the concept of a deity, to some extent depending on what one's interpretation of such an entity is. The fundamental accommodating formula(e) and scientific practices have been used time and again. There is also accommodation of the concept of 'without faith I am nothing'.

The proposal of Intelligent design is no part of this.

[elian]

In my mind you need both, science and faith to be a well rounded individual - but follow neither one blindly. Is it any wonder that we have "free will" - we are born with an innate curiosity and creativity .. we are SUPPOSED to find out the answers.. I can't help it if people in this generation are so blanketed in marketing that they have been brainwashed into wanting to be ENTERTAINED more than EDUCATED ..EPCOT was a real disappointment in this regard - sadly it's about as close as you'll get these days to a "World's Fair" anyway

I guess back in the day all of the fairs never really made any money, and they were still mostly commercial/industrial advertisements but it must've been neat to go see what science was promising on the horizon (too bad WW II was just looming around the corner for one of them).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0u6tkhTwJWo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GA5LVf0p9TM

I've thought about the different 'Maker Faires" that they've had around. People making things out of electronics, wood, metal, etc.. that sort of thing appeals to me for some reason.

I know some really "intelligent" people but it bothers me that they still haven't figured out that this world also needs BOTH people who are smart and people who are good with their hands..

[elian]

How.

The Gospel of Thomas was hidden from the people on this earth for near 2000 years. There was a few scraps that were not destroyed by the roman church, priest class and elites and near no one was allowed to even look at these scraps.


I believe what Jesus was objecting to was the doctrine of the Old Testament and the Torah (well, the established priesthood)..he was incredibly heretical in his day. People made a big deal about the Jewish portrayal in "The Passion of the Christ" but the way I viewed it was how can there be animosity if it was a group of Jewish people prosecuting another Jew? I figured the movie is mostly accurate, up until the very end of course but I did not like it at all because it focused on his DEATH and not the lessons he taught while he was ALIVE. Also, there were so many people who were literally stunned in their seats crying, the theater didn't move for five minutes after the film ended - using those sort of cult tactics to motivate people is a very low emotional blow..

I say Jesus was heretical for his day, it always amazed me that the church of the heretics is now the majority religion of the people in the state. Up over the hill from where I live they have one of those big corporate Christian churches, it's not quite the crystal cathedral but it's not too shabby. They have a stage that is capable of having a full broadway production, a recording studio, a choir rehearsal room, a coffee shop, classrooms with video projectors, if stadium seating for 1,000 people is not your thing the service is broadcast on closed circuit TV into the couches in the lobby and into one of the local hospitals. I don't want to begrudge people practicing their faith in the best way they know how but it just amazes me.

Of course "The Church" as an institution is just like any other with plenty of politics - they had to decide which books would be "canon" and which would not - it caused quite an uproar. I should say however, that at least here in the US there aren't many for profit corporations taking on social issues, it's mostly the church that does. It would be unfair to demonize one of the only institutions in the US that actually gives social work the respect it deserves.

[Hephaestion]

".....you need both, science and faith to be a well rounded individual - but follow neither one blindly....."

You hit upon a real necessity. I used to scoff at the mad scientist portrayed in the junior film shows. Surely impartial science and logic could have no equal? Unfortunately, large egos coupled to minute levels of morality tend to be found in many successful scientific careers. This combination often cloaks poor ability accompanied by 'it's not what you know, it's who'. History abounds with such tales and resulting persecutions.

It works to the converse where the moral high ground is claimed to the detriment of all else because 'God's on our side'. Suggesting that the world was round (sperical) was a real problem in days of old, as was the planetary motions about the sun. It got and still gets worse with, our flavour of God is better than your flavour of the same God.

On a lighter note, pray a moment's silence for what must have been the spectacular faliure of science and logic when Mr Spock was afflicted by his seven year itch, Pon Farr. The sight of old pointy ears humping anything with legs (even tables) must have caused quite a stir in the confines of USS Enterprise; a real reason to keep one's back to the wall at all such times. His poor old mum.

.

[pepperjack]

You hit upon a real necessity. I used to scoff at the mad scientist portrayed in the junior film shows. Surely impartial science and logic could have no equal? Unfortunately, large egos coupled to minute levels of morality tend to be found in many successful scientific careers. This combination often cloaks poor ability accompanied by 'it's not what you know, it's who'. History abounds with such tales and resulting persecutions.

It works to the converse where the moral high ground is claimed to the detriment of all else because 'God's on our side'. Suggesting that the world was round (sperical) was a real problem in days of old, as was the planetary motions about the sun. It got and still gets worse with, our flavour of God is better than your flavour of the same God.

On a lighter note, pray a moment's silence for what must have been the spectacular faliure of science and logic when Mr Spock was afflicted by his seven year itch, Pon Farr. The sight of old pointy ears humping anything with legs (even tables) must have caused quite a stir in the confines of USS Enterprise; a real reason to keep one's back to the wall at all such times. His poor old mum.

.

Satan is the "author of confusion." 'nuff said!

[void()]

"Science does allow for the concept of a deity, to some extent depending on what one's interpretation of such an entity is. The fundamental accommodating formula(e) and scientific practices have been used time and again. There is also accommodation of the concept of 'without faith I am nothing'."

May not agree exactly on a deity, unless one counts humanity as a whole. Even as such, I would be hard pressed accepting even that as a deity. But I do agree we need faith, though am inclined to call it imagination. Without dreams we do not advance.

"I know some really "intelligent" people but it bothers me that they still haven't figured out that this world also needs BOTH people who are smart and people who are good with their hands."

Your idea is understood. Please understand an idea of someone else. Yes it is fine to be good with your hands and earn a living from that. It is not fine to be forced into arduous labor nearing upon slavery and degradation of human beings whilst an elite group profit and live in luxury. And yes, I know life is not fair. I also know that here in America we attempted creating a system which made the world more fair.

We scribed, "all men are created equal and guaranteed inalienable rights ...", and now here we are with the likes of J.P.Morgan, Bank of America, manufacturing and information markets gutted by technology, outsourcing or a combination of them. Meanwhile, the poor get poorer. We're told "it's your fault for not being educated", but education requires a life of debt to attain, even then there are no jobs.

Look at the 99 percent Tumbler site, read the stories of all these various people. There are educated and uneducated people alike, trades people, information people, young and old. It isn't merely a few people but rather epidemic seeing no quarter for any save the elite. (currency based read affluent) Even some of them have started feeling the bite, yet they are still in their opulent lives.

And no this does not involve politics, religion, class. It involves seeing a system which has been tried, fail. It involves opening a dialogue and working, all of us together, creating a better system or set of systems. The elite do not want this as par course, they rather have human capital, or more bluntly their slaves. We are tired of this, it no longer functions, change it.

One mean to that change appears to exist in the form of The Venus Project and idea of a resource based economy. You yourself know engineers, let them go hog wild exploring some of the stuff involved. There is discussion of moving sidewalks, modular transport elevators which can be put into trains and ships, sea cities, use of alternate building materials and so on.

A lot of what is here appears to make a great deal of sense to me. It may not be perfect, nothing ever is. It may not be the only way, in fact it is encouraged to be highly critical of the project. The point being, we need to find a new way, this one cannot be repaired.

Apologies for making 'our' discussion public, honey. I have not ever really had the ability to fully express what needed said before now. Then some folks got together and said 'hey, we aren't alone' and this provided further articulation, further clarity. It also provide a sense of 'hey, I'm not a complete nutcase out for a lark, there is a real problem'. So, I'm saying it here because it does need said. I am not saying here as means of debasing you. Rather I say it to hope for understanding. I call that faith, faith that you will understand.

[Hephaestion]

"........though am inclined to call it imagination. Without dreams we do not advance........."

"....... It is not fine to be forced into arduous labor nearing upon slavery and degradation of human beings whilst an elite group profit and live in luxury...."

"........they rather have human capital, or more bluntly their slaves. We are tired of this, it no longer functions, change it....."

"........One mean to that change appears to exist in the form of The Venus Project and idea of a resource based economy........."

"....... The point being, we need to find a new way, this one cannot be repaired......."

"........ So, I'm saying it here because it does need said. I am not saying here as means of debasing you. Rather I say it to hope for understanding. I call that faith, faith that you will understand............."


I think I understand what you are saying Void. Largely it finds empathy in my mind.

Freedom, free will, and the intention to do good have been fundamental to ideal human endeavours. In these there are dreams, aspirations and faiths. Along with these must come responsibility which unfortunately sections of our societies feel that they can purchase exemption from.

The separation of thinkers and do'ers has never really worked. One may function better at one end of the spectrum or the other. But to assume that one can do without the other, or may that one may be exploited as an expendable resource, is foolish.

Was it Carl Marx who said that 'religion was the opiate of the masses'? Perhaps it was in his thinking so as to combat unreasonable exploitation. To others religion is a focus of dreams and hopes of things better as a 'tool' to combat the same. If there is need to personify this, then so be it.

As with the abuses of the godless communism and curerently godless capitalism there are abuses in other walks of life including religion. One must be conscious of all of these and try to prevent them. Replacements might be long term ambitions. Moderations and restraints are more tangible for the present.

The Venus Project is indeed laudable. A possible method of survivial on this overcrowded planet. It is also an important approach if we are ever to get to other planets. Isn't there something on these lines going on in parallel or is the Venus Project it?

.

[darkeyes]

I think I understand what you are saying Void. Largely it finds empathy in my mind.

Freedom, free will, and the intention to do good have been fundamental to ideal human endeavours. In these there are dreams, aspirations and faiths. Along with these must come responsibility which unfortunately sections of our societies feel that they can purchase exemption from.

The separation of thinkers and do'ers has never really worked. One may function better at one end of the spectrum or the other. But to assume that one can do without the other, or may that one may be exploited as an expendable resource, is foolish.

Was it Carl Marx who said that 'religion was the opiate of the masses'? Perhaps it was in his thinking so as to combat unreasonable exploitation. To others religion is a focus of dreams and hopes of things better as a 'tool' to combat the same. If there is need to personify this, then so be it.

As with the abuses of the godless communism and curerently godless capitalism there are abuses in other walks of life including religion. One must be conscious of all of these and try to prevent them. Replacements might be long term ambitions. Moderations and restraints are more tangible for the present.

The Venus Project is indeed laudable. A possible method of survivial on this overcrowded planet. It is also an important approach if we are ever to get to other planets. Isn't there something on these lines going on in parallel or is the Venus Project it?

.

I rather liked Voidie's post.. can go along with it in the main.. your's too heph.. but Marx did not make his statement about religion primarily to combat exploitation.. certainly it was a consideration but his primary purpose was to illustrate that religion provides a fantasy for the people in which they are held out the promise of a better life to come if they are good little boys and girls and don't cut up rough.. that religion is a lie with which the elite can enforce its will on the lower classes.. the exploited if you like.. the statement is always reduced to a few words which do not adequately describe his intent..

Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress and the protest against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions.


We may agree or disagree with the statement but it is the most valid critique of religion I know.. but I suppose being an athiest and socialist I would say that.. it is certainly important whatever our opinion of it.. Marx may be and is criticical of religion but his major criticism is not of religion itself, but of an unfeeling and unpleasant society. Religion is a comfort to the people, but is itself exploited by the system and the elite (of which the church itself, or at least its hierarchy, in the west was a part) by providing comfort to the oppressed and exploited just as opiates do an addict.. religion is an important tool by which the ruling classes determine society's morality and structure and retain their power over the people..

[Hephaestion]

A welcome clarification on Marx. Thanks.

Heph

[void()]

"The Venus Project is indeed laudable. A possible method of survivial on this overcrowded planet. It is also an important approach if we are ever to get to other planets. Isn't there something on these lines going on in parallel or is the Venus Project it?"

Thank you for lending credit of the Venus Project. It means a great deal that people start realizing we need another way to live, more importantly that each of us needs to be open to new ideas. Other ideas include Project Zeitgeist (http://www.zeitgeistproject.org/index.html), One (http://www.one.org/us/). One is international, not aware if Zeitgeist is or not. One is an idea from Sir Bono, an Irishman knighted by English royalty.

Each of these ideas may appear individual. They are. But they share a common vision and goal. We have it in our power to make the world better, let's do it. If it means abolishing all government / religion because it gets in the way or allows corruption free reign, so be it. Why is there piracy? Wake up with a gun in your face everyday, eat only rice while another group eats steaks and fruits from around the world. Why wouldn't there be piracy? I call it self preservation.

And yes I know one can live on rice. That is not the point I seek illustrating here. The point I seek to illustrate, is that after a while even the rice vanishes as those living off the fat of the land become more full of greed. To borrow from a great military mind, "desperate men will do desperate things". He was speaking in context of mercenaries and slaves granted spoils for vanquishing enemies of Rome. Such an idea though may be applied in this context as well.

Necessity is the mother of invention, and desperation the mother of necessity.


"religion is an important tool by which the ruling classes determine society's morality and structure and retain their power over the people."

Fran, tell Kate to slide over a bit. I think I've just fallen in love. *chuckles* Glad someone actually understood that. But it isn't merely religion. You need control of currency, transport as well. Oh wait, apologies I'm recalling C.I.A mandates of how to overthrow countries. Funny how the darndest memories surface in the darndest times. But even the C.I.A is yet another tool. *sigh* We need to walk sideways at them like they do at us. We need to misbehave. :)

[elian]

Remember that in America the promise is NOT that you will be happy, healthy and content to live a life with no effort, but that you have an OPPORTUNITY to make a life for yourself..as opposed to say something like a caste system where you are born into an unchangeable position in society. For those of us who come here starting out with little that usually means that it takes generations to reach that level. In my great grandparents' day it was enough to just put food on the table to survive - they didn't think about how people "felt" that was irrelevant. Several generations of people worked very hard "so my kids can have the things I never had." Now the kids have those things and they take them for granted, some of them have never HAD to do without. To do what I am talking about you actually have to be able to SAVE money and invest it - when all you can do is live paycheck to paycheck that is hard to do.

The system is definitely lop-sided, none of them are perfect. Capitalism forgets that human beings aren't widgets; Communism forgets that it's in human nature that someone will try to short change the system.

I would love to be a subject matter expert in everything but there is no way I can, and even if I knew what to do that doesn't' mean I have the right skill set to do it. I don't mind earning a lving so I can hire people to do things that I cannot do. I still feel that barter is a useful way to do things as well..

The middle class ceased to exist once people started treating the economy as global. There are now people "above" doing certain jobs in the US society, they don't want to do them but God forbid some "illegal" people do them.. The other thing that happened of course is a lack of long term vision. Instead of saving those pension funds for retirees corporations and the government spent them. Social Security WOULD have been solvent if the government would have kept their hands off the money...but no - now it's just another "failed" social program - let's start another war - they're good for industry.

I preach forgiveness and love so much because I fear this world IS going to change, and for a time it's probably going to seem really scary. With globalization there is a push-pull that is happening - the valence theory of electrons strikes again - things trying to come into balance. As people all over the world start to realize their worth companies are having a harder time finding some third world place with no labor union and no environmental regulation...but yet we want everything "cheap" here..people have yet to realize that you can't get something for nothing. People bitch so much about government involvement and taxation but yet they feel they have a God given right to drive down any public road..

That's really only one aspect of it though, and I don't claim to understand everything in the world. Look at the war in Iraq and Afghanistan - I know people have a million theories about "why we're there" but the bottom line is we are standing up a democracy for the Islamic people that so many white blooded Americans "despise" in this country. As it turns out words and ideas again have more power than guns - it takes Obama to go over there and speak to some students about what democracy means and the next thing you know they are taking up the cause internally - and not with suicide bombs but with political protest.

I know that one of the reasons that oil prices spiked so many years ago is that some folks in other parts of the world started "living large" on the American dream, buying big SUV's, etc. just like we did. There are reasons to have a big car, if you have a big family for example - but just to buy one as a status symbol is not a good reason..I really hope it doesn't take every third world country to make the same mistakes we did before the world is satisfied.

Same thing with technology here, right now technology in US culture is a status symbol, a hood ornament branded by some company - when and if we finally rebuild our society to put people and community first, we also need to re-envision just what technology is and is not. Technology is a tool to be used in the background - it is NOT an end-all, be-all self absorbing opiate.

<you have been listening to Elian brand political discourse, now with 50% MORE fodder>

[darkeyes]

Fran, tell Kate to slide over a bit. I think I've just fallen in love. *chuckles* Glad someone actually understood that. But it isn't merely religion. You need control of currency, transport as well. Oh wait, apologies I'm recalling C.I.A mandates of how to overthrow countries. Funny how the darndest memories surface in the darndest times. But even the C.I.A is yet another tool. *sigh* We need to walk sideways at them like they do at us. We need to misbehave. :)

You mean ya didnt luff me b4 now?:( *sniff*... still.. betta late than neva Voidie.. tee hee:bigrin:

.. but u are right.. religion is but one tool among many in the arsenal of the power mad brute.. the thing 'bout religion which separates it out from the other tools, is that you can rationalise the others so much more easily.. religion being based on superstition is generally the thing which gets us earliest and so is hardest to shift from the consciousness.. it is so deeply set that people will believe things of religion that they would not in any other part of their lives.. rationality and objectivity is suspended or at the very least warped... Jesuits say "give us the child until he is seven and I will give you the man.." after all...

I think actually the indoctrination is set even earlier than that and is a bugger to shift.. my lack of belief comes from my earliest days in this world and is equally difficult to shift.. but in my view it has left me with what I see as a more rational and objective view of the world and less prone to the unreasonable and irrational prejudices which religious belief would have inflicted upon me.. of course it's a personal view, it can be no other, but one I hold very powerfully and unwaveringly..

..everything else follows in time but never quite sets with so much glue as that which we have had shoved into us pre school... which is why the powers that be can chop and change and shift around so easily to suit the prevailing wind and still con the people.. but religion sticks and is the most enduring weapon in the armoury of those who are determined that we shall remain their skivvies and at their beck and call.....

[void()]

"People have yet to realize that you can't get something for nothing. People bitch so much about government involvement and taxation but yet they feel they have a God given right to drive down any public road.Technology is a tool to be used in the background - it is NOT an end-all, be-all self absorbing opiate."

Holding such a defensive stance though only serves in revealing your position. Your position is that resources are scarce and it is justifiable to ration them based upon neanderthal economic logic. Yes, there are limits but not the limits your position mandates. Here we are.

There exists enough of every resource for everyone if we but share equally.

And here is where I agree with technology being used in the background. Let technology ration out shares equally based upon the data persistent. We know in general terms what each person needs. We call them basic necessities and we have a pretty clear view of what quantities are needed. Plug it into a distribution based system, the distribution attaches to the agricultural system, the farms grow or produce our needs and the technology system as a whole supplies each person their needs.

We are then, in effect free because the agriculture likely chosen by the computer would integrate automation and hydroponics. Farms could be inclusive of greenhouses and outdoor tracts. Crops could grow year round in any season or climate. And all of this does exist right now, in some base form or other. It is merely working toward and implementing the system.

There is no need for money when supply outweighs demand. Goods become devalued from over production. Food would be free. Why then would global hunger exist? That's right, politics, religion, differences. Fine, let the computers set basic guidelines for us based on the Human Rights deceleration of the U.N. or some other worthy humanitarian entity.

This would give us all freedom. We could converse and have direct democracy about issues. That means that everyone can vote and each vote weighs the same as the thousand before it.

I am not declaring it an end all, be all. But it looks, pardon my Saxon and Norman, a damn sight better than what we're doing at present. When you live in a state that is truly free, you need not others telling you it is, nor do you need them telling you you ought to be grateful. Me and C did without electricity for a week due to a bad Winter ice storm. The locals often refer to our road alternately as Station Camp or Frozen Camp. During the civil war, camps from both sides froze up here.

But me and her made it. Her grandfather ran a generator four hours a day. We barely opened the cooler. Showers took place during genny runs. In the evenings we used candles, lanterns and played board games, read. Yes, we were and still are grateful. But at the same time, we made it. We can do it again if need be. The biggest threat was the cold. Nullified it one one night with a little rum, wrapped up pig in blanket style with six layers plus winter clothes.

I'm sick of tombstone media reality. And Fran, yes dear tart I loved you before. Now you've gained more admiration and some desire. I'm fine not concerning myself over the desire. But Golly Miss Molly, get back! ;) :) Luvs ya gal. Stay safe during the quakes. <bweg>

[goldenfinger]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nd0Ffv82-o&feature=related

She is so lost.

[bigi56]

Sorry, but religion is crap. It is one persons way of controlling another and I have zero use for it. It is responsible for most of the misery on this planet.

[goldenfinger]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YO8eubj23dQ

[pepperjack]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YO8eubj23dQ

"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." 1Corinthians14:33

[elian]

I stand by my position, you can't get something for nothing.. I used economics as an example but economics is not the only area where this is true..the universe is full of all sorts of friction...newton and all that..of course Mother Theresa said "I have found the paradox that if I love until it hurts, then there is no hurt, but only more love."

Yes, wouldn't it be lovely if I was programmed to be cooperative instead of competitive, as a matter of fact I WAS programmed to be cooperative (..sighs..) and I went through great pain and fear to LEARN to be competitive and I still do a half-assed job at it. The resources in this world ARE scarce, do I wish it was that way? No..but it has a way of weighting things with importance doesn't it? When you apply "scarcity" and "time" it creates a sense of urgency where there was none..motivates people to act.

Point blank, life ain't fair, and it was never meant to be..welcome to the world of the God of chaos..lucky for us he's not the only..not really THAT bad - he can be a nice guy. I agree, there's no point in BLAMING God and there's no point in waiting for some magical flying ship to come down and save us. I actually believe in the positive potential of humanity - do you know how many sneer at that idea? There are a lot of critters who think a lot less of humans..if there's anyone going to be doing the saving of us it ought to be us.

Some really DO want to treat us like some sort of science fair experiment. A very lustful "cartel" seeks power for the sake of having power and the rush it provides. I tried to pull children out of the timeline, hold them up as examples and say - "Look at what you are sacrificing" - for a while it worked, but just like a group of horny vikings next to a bus full of Swedish bikini team cheerleaders their lust for power soon overwhelmed them again and so here we are.

I fairly well imagine from my experiences that we are in a psychic war - for 10 years now we have been subjected to the "if you aren't for us, you must be against us" type of mentality..it divides and destroys. I am here to tell you there is another way - love, compassion, forgiveness, understanding..it isn't very flashy..it was never meant to be...and it is hard, hard work. I am so tired of fighting.

As far as religion and sex well, it's fine to have a fifth grade understanding of God as long as you're in the fifth grade. I stopped thinking of the divine in parent/child terms a long time ago and think of it more as a loving partner relationship.

You are right goldenfinger, although I am not adverse to logic there is nothing I can say that would convince you that what I have experienced in dreams is "true". I'm not even convinced that what I experienced in dreams is true, but I know I've experienced it. Hell, for all I know it could be some sort of mental defense/survival mechanism that the mind plays out.

It's one thing to have a dream, but quite another to think a question in your head and have a friend tell you the answer out loud before you can speak the question. Once you've experienced that it seems pretty foolish to deny that there are things going on that we simply do not have the physical tools to measure.

Even atheists have faith though, right? It is possible to completely deconstruct and destroy someone's belief system using logic, but that's not the point of having a discussion.

"Good morning, and in case I don't see ya, good afternoon, good evening, and good night!"

[Hephaestion]

09 Oct 2011. I was driving at the time so I did not grasp the fine detail. However, I know what I heard. The expert on the matter said quite categorically

"God was married to ...... and he later divorced her.... It's in the scriptures..."

Wow! So Seth MacFarlane Industries are showing 'reality' when God is depicted in bed with a young lady and doesn't want to use a condom. However, I am not so sure that farting the Universe into existence while using a disposable lighter is supported. Although, it does give new meaning to the term 'Black Hole'.

.

[elian]

Live your life the way you want to live it. I hate to tell you but whether you like it or not as long as you are living in this world you are subjected to his rules. (Notice please I didn't say "The Bible")

It's funny that Heph brings that up because although he has dominion over this world there is a higher, benevolent force in the universe. He doesn't like to acknowledge it but when pressed he will admit that "she" exists, but he sounds rather like a grumpy divorced (or married too long) husband when he says it.

The atheist in the video asks whether God is "moral" or "contradictory" which is sort of an absurd question - whether he is or not it really doesn't matter. He absolutely DOES lie when he feels it is in the best interest of protecting "his children". I have been accused of being a five year old throwing a temper tantrum more than once. Have you ever seen a parent tell a child "it won't hurt" when they get a vaccination? Is that a lie? There are certain things he feels that we should not have to deal with and he "shields" us from those things.

There are a lot of things I grew up distrusting in this world, and God was one of them, I just didn't want to be hurt anymore. In the end though I have to say that despite all of the chaos he does seem "fair" - I have been blessed with many gifts - some of which I worked very hard for, some of which were the direct result of the love of other people and others where the right opportunity came along and it seemed as though someone was watching my back spiritually.

He once said, "You know I won't give you anything you can't handle" - I always distrust ANYTHING I see in a dream but I have to say that so far he has been right - I have confronted a lot of adversity and managed to overcome it..hopefully been made stronger in the process.

[Darkside2009]

You mean ya didnt luff me b4 now?:( *sniff*... still.. betta late than neva Voidie.. tee hee:bigrin:

.. but u are right.. religion is but one tool among many in the arsenal of the power mad brute.. the thing 'bout religion which separates it out from the other tools, is that you can rationalise the others so much more easily.. religion being based on superstition is generally the thing which gets us earliest and so is hardest to shift from the consciousness.. it is so deeply set that people will believe things of religion that they would not in any other part of their lives.. rationality and objectivity is suspended or at the very least warped... Jesuits say "give us the child until he is seven and I will give you the man.." after all...

I think actually the indoctrination is set even earlier than that and is a bugger to shift.. my lack of belief comes from my earliest days in this world and is equally difficult to shift.. but in my view it has left me with what I see as a more rational and objective view of the world and less prone to the unreasonable and irrational prejudices which religious belief would have inflicted upon me.. of course it's a personal view, it can be no other, but one I hold very powerfully and unwaveringly..

..everything else follows in time but never quite sets with so much glue as that which we have had shoved into us pre school... which is why the powers that be can chop and change and shift around so easily to suit the prevailing wind and still con the people.. but religion sticks and is the most enduring weapon in the armoury of those who are determined that we shall remain their skivvies and at their beck and call.....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I view religion as simply the name for a relationship with God. Like any other relationship, it may be good, poor or non-existant. It may be like a treasured friend that you might not see very often but when events in your life are harsh, they are always there to support you through Life's traumas.

Is this superstition? Not in my book. A relationship with God brings comfort and solace to millions around the World and enables them to cope with the unedifying grind of their daily lives. A place of sanctuary in which to rest and renew one's spirit.

I know you regard religion as superstition, as a warped rationality, but the same could be said for your often avowed assertion that you have faith in humanity to work-out their future in grim contradiction of the evidence.

Global warming is getting worse, pollution is getting worse; over-population; corporate greed;human relationships reduced to television fodder like a modern-day Bedlam.

Not an edifying sight. It was religion that taught us that the love of money is the root of all evil, and not money itself, as is often misquoted. It is this greed that allows conglomerates to manipulate millions of people around the World with the illusion of a Global Economy, pitting workers on cheap wages abroad with domestic workers at home. As long as the present allocation of resources continues, then disparity will remain. This allocation of resources and their consumption, has more to do with bargaining power than anything else.

Religion has motivated people to serve unceasingly around the World in the service of others, bringing medical aid, food, water and tools to those that needed them. Teaching the disadvantaged in, often rudimentary schools to lift those people out of poverty and squalor to the hope of a better life. Many do this at great threat to their own lives and to those of their own families, for the simple reason that they felt called upon by God to do so. Warped? Irrational? You might well think so, but then the same was thought of votes for women.

I believe that my relationship with God informs my daily life and acts as a moral compass as to how I should treat others and how I should conduct and treat myself.

You do not believe in God, as you have often said, to me the evidence for his existence is all around us. Just as the blind cannot see colours, you cannot see God. You have chosen a different path for yourself and that is fine, I believe God endowed us with a brain and the free will to use it. How we use it is up to us.

We can use a box of matches to light a stove to cook on, or we can use it to burn someone's house to the ground, we don't however blame the manufacturer of the matches for their misuse. Why then should we blame God for our misuse of his relationship?

[dickhand]

Naturist (reformed)

[darkeyes]

Am glad u have faith 2 fall back on and sustain you, Darkside, and guides you through life... folk should believe in something but I am afraid belief in some omnipotent presence is a luxury I do not have nor indeed wish to have.. I am not blind particularly, as you wish to make out.. I have just rationalised things and come to a different conclusion to you..

You see God everywhere you look and I see something else.. not intelligent design but a cosmic naturalism which has nothing to do with God..

I agree that humanity doesnt exactly cover itself with glory very often as it tramples and abuses our world and crushes under foot other human beings weaker and more vulnerable than itself.. many human beings in the name of God have done exactly that, and historically probably more than those who do not believe in a God.. they still do it.. and will continue so to do for some time to come..

Equally many human beings, unbelievers... athiests and agnostics have contributed to whatever greatness our species has.. it is not necessary to believe in God to have a conscience or be inspired by the world and universe around us.. belief in God does not give human beings sole ownership of compassion or inspirition..

That we are the substance of our shared human history is endeniable and if we are influenced and inspired by God or Gods who may or may not be real, I would argue that such belief and the religions which grew up around them, and such morality which comes from them were more human inspired than by God.. I would argue further, and have, that the idea of God is human inspired and that is where I stand.. that is my rationality..

... and I have never blamed God for anything in my life... how can I pin fault on something which I do not believe exists? Any blame which requires attributing, I pin fairly and squarely on humanity and human beings.. any credit for decency and inspiration I credit to humanity and to human beings.. God doesn't come in to the equation.. ever.. religion does because religion is man made and so open to corruption.. how can it be other when the idea upon which God is based is itself corruption? In my opinion, the idea is a lie.. and is not a lie corruption?

Welcome back btw... wondered if God had called you to his side for a week or two there.. and that would be sad, cos I would miss the occasional lil spar wivya!:)

[pepperjack]

I stand by my position, you can't get something for nothing.. I used economics as an example but economics is not the only area where this is true..the universe is full of all sorts of friction...newton and all that..of course Mother Theresa said "I have found the paradox that if I love until it hurts, then there is no hurt, but only more love."

Yes, wouldn't it be lovely if I was programmed to be cooperative instead of competitive, as a matter of fact I WAS programmed to be cooperative (..sighs..) and I went through great pain and fear to LEARN to be competitive and I still do a half-assed job at it. The resources in this world ARE scarce, do I wish it was that way? No..but it has a way of weighting things with importance doesn't it? When you apply "scarcity" and "time" it creates a sense of urgency where there was none..motivates people to act.

Point blank, life ain't fair, and it was never meant to be..welcome to the world of the God of chaos..lucky for us he's not the only..not really THAT bad - he can be a nice guy. I agree, there's no point in BLAMING God and there's no point in waiting for some magical flying ship to come down and save us. I actually believe in the positive potential of humanity - do you know how many sneer at that idea? There are a lot of critters who think a lot less of humans..if there's anyone going to be doing the saving of us it ought to be us.

Some really DO want to treat us like some sort of science fair experiment. A very lustful "cartel" seeks power for the sake of having power and the rush it provides. I tried to pull children out of the timeline, hold them up as examples and say - "Look at what you are sacrificing" - for a while it worked, but just like a group of horny vikings next to a bus full of Swedish bikini team cheerleaders their lust for power soon overwhelmed them again and so here we are.

I fairly well imagine from my experiences that we are in a psychic war - for 10 years now we have been subjected to the "if you aren't for us, you must be against us" type of mentality..it divides and destroys. I am here to tell you there is another way - love, compassion, forgiveness, understanding..it isn't very flashy..it was never meant to be...and it is hard, hard work. I am so tired of fighting.

As far as religion and sex well, it's fine to have a fifth grade understanding of God as long as you're in the fifth grade. I stopped thinking of the divine in parent/child terms a long time ago and think of it more as a loving partner relationship.

You are right goldenfinger, although I am not adverse to logic there is nothing I can say that would convince you that what I have experienced in dreams is "true". I'm not even convinced that what I experienced in dreams is true, but I know I've experienced it. Hell, for all I know it could be some sort of mental defense/survival mechanism that the mind plays out.

It's one thing to have a dream, but quite another to think a question in your head and have a friend tell you the answer out loud before you can speak the question. Once you've experienced that it seems pretty foolish to deny that there are things going on that we simply do not have the physical tools to measure.

Even atheists have faith though, right? It is possible to completely deconstruct and destroy someone's belief system using logic, but that's not the point of having a discussion.

"Good morning, and in case I don't see ya, good afternoon, good evening, and good night!"

As in the words of Crocodile Dundee when referring to his solitary life in the outback, "me and God, we've been mates."

[elian]

I appreciate your point of view Fran (well all of you sharing actually), that sounds like a well rounded place to be. The latest thing I am learning is that there IS no "other" - it's all just "we" ..

[darkeyes]

I appreciate your point of view Fran (well all of you sharing actually), that sounds like a well rounded place to be. The latest thing I am learning is that there IS no "other" - it's all just "we" ..

..apart from God eh, Elian? Or have we converted you to the Godless? Naaaa.. didn't think so.. :tong: Be happy babes..:)

[elian]

..apart from God eh, Elian? Or have we converted you to the Godless? Naaaa.. didn't think so.. :tong: Be happy babes..:)

Oops, FRAN for a minute there I thought you said GODDESS.. <wink wink>

I doubt myself way too much to not have faith in a higher power, how else can I explain the voices that kept encouraging me to take one more step, live one more day when I doubted myself terribly because of my sexuality? Nobody in the physical world knew how much I struggled, I dared not to tell anyone because I desperately needed the friends and family I had. So it must have been something else.. Survival instinct of the brain? Rather than die it manufactured these voices? I mean when it comes down to it (and I was told never to think this way but) we are all basically walking bags of water and bone..peptides, proteins, neurons, about a million chemical reactions..that alone is a miracle..but that's just the hardware, all of it is a vehicle for something else.. Have you ever noticed patterns in faces, people I think I recognize from seeing over and over again? It's not the body that is that much different rather than the soul.

No, I like the story with the tiger in it too much, but I see no point in groveling before the Lord anymore as much as I would grovel before my own spouse (if I were to have one, maybe someday)..I mean after all - that is as intimate as I know how to be and I have no desire to be abused, nor do I believe that the true divine is abusive. I am still human, and still subject to human emotion but I try to celebrate the small things in life for the blessings they are..for example..good friends who listen to my endless ramblings without kicking me in the butt..?

When you look through the lens what you see may be different, but in the end we ARE all one.

[pepperjack]

I appreciate your point of view Fran (well all of you sharing actually), that sounds like a well rounded place to be. The latest thing I am learning is that there IS no "other" - it's all just "we" ..

I read a book once about demons; an identifying characteristic is that they always say "we"; ( "we are legion, for we are many.") apparently, the Satanic kingdom has a hierarchy; also, demons have a dual nature; incredibly intelligent & stupid, simultaneousley; I'm sorry but can't help but notice that some of the posts to this thread seem nonsensical, confusing, pseudo-intellectual;why denounce the reality of God just because u want to feel sexually liberated? and why blame God for the chaos in the world, created by man's free agency? God is about peace, order: Satan is about chaos, confusion,because confusion is a smokescreen of deception and the Bible says" he is the god of THIS world." But I recently gained a new perspective on "we" & who uses that word. Maybe I sound like I'm rambling also.

[darkeyes]

I read a book once about demons; an identifying characteristic is that they always say "we"; ( "we are legion, for we are many.") apparently, the Satanic kingdom has a hierarchy; also, demons have a dual nature; incredibly intelligent & stupid, simultaneousley; I'm sorry but can't help but notice that some of the posts to this thread seem nonsensical, confusing, pseudo-intellectual;why denounce the reality of God just because u want to feel sexually liberated? and why blame God for the chaos in the world, created by man's free agency? God is about peace, order: Satan is about chaos, confusion,because confusion is a smokescreen of deception and the Bible says" he is the god of THIS world." But I recently gained a new perspective on "we" & who uses that word. Maybe I sound like I'm rambling also.

I have never denounced the reality of God.. denied his existence enough times... cos that me luffly, is how I am and what I believe.. there is no God.. no Satan.. no demons.. no angels.. no heaven.. no hell.. save those figments which originated in the imaginations of human beings and those which exist in the faith of those who believe generations later what those original human beings imaginations thought up..

[elian]

When I think of myself as separate from creation, the world and others around me it feeds my ego and all of my insecurities.

"I" want this
"I" am right
"I" don't care
"I" am isolated, afraid and alone.
"Others" are responsible for my pain

When I think of myself as a part of a loving community where all beings ultimately want to be happy I know I can rely on others and I instinctively want to give the best of what I have to those around me.

"We" are interconnected
"We" are all the body of Christ
"We" share joy
"We" share sorrow
"We" don't have to do it alone
There is always someone who cares

What excuse can I use for my pain if there is no "other" ? Where can I run and hide if there IS no "separate place" ? Some people spend their whole lives running away from things they would rather not face..that's a lot of energy wasted. the traps and illusions we create for ourselves here mean hell to me more than any image of ancient fire and brimstone ever will.

I guess Buddhism might seem demonic, the Buddha was supremely aware of the human condition and said "'I teach only two things: suffering, and the end of suffering." The stories of the Buddha teach that he was also confronted by many "demonic" entities who sought to trick him into giving up his quest to reach spiritual enlightenment. They were scared that they would lose their power if he succeeded. One of them asked him, "What gives you the right, as a mere mortal, to demand entry to the realm of Gods?" He called upon the Earth to testify to the many good and compassionate works he had done and the kindness he wished upon all beings..

It was only his compassionate God-like heart, forged through trials and tribulations he endured upon the Earth that gave him the strength not to be moved by their ploys.

[void()]

I read a book once about demons; an identifying characteristic is that they always say "we"; ( "we are legion, for we are many.") apparently, the Satanic kingdom has a hierarchy; also, demons have a dual nature; incredibly intelligent & stupid, simultaneousley; I'm sorry but can't help but notice that some of the posts to this thread seem nonsensical, confusing, pseudo-intellectual;why denounce the reality of God just because u want to feel sexually liberated? and why blame God for the chaos in the world, created by man's free agency? God is about peace, order: Satan is about chaos, confusion,because confusion is a smokescreen of deception and the Bible says" he is the god of THIS world." But I recently gained a new perspective on "we" & who uses that word. Maybe I sound like I'm rambling also.

No confusion here. I do not denounce any deity to favor sexual liberation, rather because reason precipitates denouncement. If I use the word we it is meant in the context of each individual human globally, or a specified group of said human beings. Apologies, reason further considers demons, angels non-existent. I do believe we each have a spirit, animals as well, and the whole of Earth. That spirit in my view is not so much anything deemed 'supernatural', as much as vibrational resonance.

[pepperjack]

No confusion here. I do not denounce any deity to favor sexual liberation, rather because reason precipitates denouncement. If I use the word we it is meant in the context of each individual human globally, or a specified group of said human beings. Apologies, reason further considers demons, angels non-existent. I do believe we each have a spirit, animals as well, and the whole of Earth. That spirit in my view is not so much anything deemed 'supernatural', as much as vibrational resonance.

Sorry , but angels & demons do exist! Encountered both last spring during death of my aged mother, my conduit into this life; also have had previous encounters; spirits are energies, the common denominator; at the end of the day, all is energy; Einstein said "Reality is an illusion, albeit a very persistent one."

[Hephaestion]

Elian
".........It's funny that Heph brings that up because although he has dominion over this world there is a higher, benevolent force in the universe. He doesn't like to acknowledge it but when pressed he will admit that "she" exists, but he sounds rather like a grumpy divorced (or married too long) husband when he says it......"

Am I being confused here with an earthly God? Perhaps this explains the the repeated calling of my name at times

Oh God, Oh God, Oh God, Oh, Oh, Oh! (Alright so I delude myself at times).

2 more comments
a) My female parters have all been goddesses ('she' exists)
b) There is a suggestion that God is a 'lapsus calami' for Goat as depitcted in a Punch cartoon of the late 1960's in which the the new entrant to Heaven hears as captioned from the enthroned "Well. What did you expect?"

Void
"....we each have a spirit, animals as well, and the whole of Earth. That spirit in my view is not so much anything deemed 'supernatural', as much as vibrational resonance....."

Getting there!


Pepperjack
".......spirits are energies, the common denominator; at the end of the day, all is energy; Einstein said "Reality is an illusion, albeit a very persistent one."....."

Certainly there is genuine evil in 'the world'. If it could be coalesced it would be reminiscent of the overused and unventilated works male latrine.

Interesting PJ. Curiously similar to Void
a) Energy is the ability to do work
b) Energy can neither be created nor destroyed - it is eternal
c) Energy is ubiquitous
d) Energy and matter are interconvertible
If energy can be made cohesive then it can be made material. An example of cohesive energy my be the MASER or the more common LASER. A reminder that light is a form of energy and has wave particle duality.
There is a propensity towards entropy - Can common belief counteract this last and utilise the former?

One should bear in mind that in the HHGTTG, proving that God exists counteracts faith. Without faith God is nothing and therefore God 'vanishes in a puff of logic'

[darkeyes]

Am I being confused here with an earthly God? Perhaps this explains the the repeated calling of my name at times

Oh God, Oh God, Oh God, Oh, Oh, Oh! (Alright so I delude myself at times).



*kneels adoringly in front of Almighty Heph...*

*Keeps hands behind 'er back and gob well and truly tightly zipped...*:tong:

[elian]

The reason I am drawn to this thread, like moth to flame is that I have always been fascinated by the interaction of society, technology and history

It fascinates me to hear the stories that people tell about what they believe and what their experiences are. Learning from you, every time I think of faith I see it from a slightly different perspective - "The Great Mystery" and I tinker at figuring things out, it's what I like to do. Faith, it's all the same idea but there are like a thousand little facets.. Unfortunately I have a tendency to be a very verbose writer and looking through the kaleidescope is starting to give me a headache.

There is definitely evil in the world, and some of it in what we might call evil critters, but the majority of the ones humans talk about aren't THAT evil. I have met one or two that literally scared me to my core - and maybe it isn't so much that they were pure evil is that I just didn't understand why I was there in that place at that time being confronted by that energy..it was so foreign to what I was used to..they knew they caught me off guard and they were reveling in it..they feed off of that sort of emotional disharmony. That's why they didn't like what the Buddha was doing - approaching everything with "A still, small voice" doesn't make a big wave..and if you try to see some good in EVERY being you meet, even if that's just knowing that all beings ultimately want to be happy - there's no surface area for them to latch on to. It's like the difference between someone who treads water and rides the ocean wave versus someone who struggles against the current and drowns.

Like Heph says, everything has a place, and energy is energy..like any other tool you can use your power (because that is the power we have) to harness energy for altruistic purposes or for malevolent purposes..but don't make the mistake of ever thinking that you OWN that energy or that something won't come back and bite you in the ass if you make the WRONG choice. That is what learning to be like God is all about. Humans always think they want power..but real power, to decide something like life and death is scary...I would want to live a thousand lifetimes before I could ever even approach being able to judge something like that. I'm not saying that i AM God, I have a LONG way to go before I can ever do that..someone wise enough to be God wouldn't be conceited and foolish enough to feel the need to even write this paragraph.

Well, I was originally only intending to write two sentences if you can believe that. What it all boils down to for me is in spite of who I am, all that I have and who I have become all I've ever really WANTED in this world is to love, and to be loved..all of the rest is just lessons that I must learn. For all the words I use it's really that simple.

[pepperjack]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I view religion as simply the name for a relationship with God. Like any other relationship, it may be good, poor or non-existant. It may be like a treasured friend that you might not see very often but when events in your life are harsh, they are always there to support you through Life's traumas.

Is this superstition? Not in my book. A relationship with God brings comfort and solace to millions around the World and enables them to cope with the unedifying grind of their daily lives. A place of sanctuary in which to rest and renew one's spirit.

I know you regard religion as superstition, as a warped rationality, but the same could be said for your often avowed assertion that you have faith in humanity to work-out their future in grim contradiction of the evidence.

Global warming is getting worse, pollution is getting worse; over-population; corporate greed;human relationships reduced to television fodder like a modern-day Bedlam.

Not an edifying sight. It was religion that taught us that the love of money is the root of all evil, and not money itself, as is often misquoted. It is this greed that allows conglomerates to manipulate millions of people around the World with the illusion of a Global Economy, pitting workers on cheap wages abroad with domestic workers at home. As long as the present allocation of resources continues, then disparity will remain. This allocation of resources and their consumption, has more to do with bargaining power than anything else.

Religion has motivated people to serve unceasingly around the World in the service of others, bringing medical aid, food, water and tools to those that needed them. Teaching the disadvantaged in, often rudimentary schools to lift those people out of poverty and squalor to the hope of a better life. Many do this at great threat to their own lives and to those of their own families, for the simple reason that they felt called upon by God to do so. Warped? Irrational? You might well think so, but then the same was thought of votes for women.

I believe that my relationship with God informs my daily life and acts as a moral compass as to how I should treat others and how I should conduct and treat myself.

You do not believe in God, as you have often said, to me the evidence for his existence is all around us. Just as the blind cannot see colours, you cannot see God. You have chosen a different path for yourself and that is fine, I believe God endowed us with a brain and the free will to use it. How we use it is up to us.

We can use a box of matches to light a stove to cook on, or we can use it to burn someone's house to the ground, we don't however blame the manufacturer of the matches for their misuse. Why then should we blame God for our misuse of his relationship?
Words of genuine intelligence & wisdom; disagree on only one point; once read about a scientific study that determined people born blind can actually dream in color! How is that possible? Isn't that evidence of some unknown Higher Power at work? And what about "dark matter", an expression scientists have given to something apparently invisible in space that holds everything together? Coincides with scripture "...for within Him we leave and breathe and have our being." And the list goes on; Evidentiary reality!

[pepperjack]

I have never denounced the reality of God.. denied his existence enough times... cos that me luffly, is how I am and what I believe.. there is no God.. no Satan.. no demons.. no angels.. no heaven.. no hell.. save those figments which originated in the imaginations of human beings and those which exist in the faith of those who believe generations later what those original human beings imaginations thought up..

Denial & doublespeak! this post absolutely confirms my points of rambling, nonsensical, pseudo-intellectuallism.:rolleyes:

[elian]

I love you and your strong faith pepperjack :) I've seen Fran "devil" people before but I'm pretty sure she's not THE devil..as a matter of fact quite to the contrary I think she cares very much about the well being of her friends. Like anyone else she's just trying to make sense of the world in the best way she knows how. Human beings do love symbolism, and they love a good story..but I won't decry anyone's faith as long that it harms none. All of you atheists remember, I'm talking about personal belief, not the historical record of one or more institutions..all institutions - like the people inside of them have probably done things they aren't proud of at one time or another.

[Long Duck Dong]

Words of genuine intelligence & wisdom; disagree on only one point; once read about a scientific study that determined people born blind can actually dream in color! How is that possible? Isn't that evidence of some unknown Higher Power at work? And what about "dark matter", an expression scientists have given to something apparently invisible in space that holds everything together? Coincides with scripture "...for within Him we leave and breathe and have our being." And the list goes on; Evidentiary reality!

the part about the blind people dreaming in color... its peoples ability to understand blindness that is the key to the study......

just cos a person has no sight, doesn't mean that the mind can not create images in colour.... the brain has all the tools and abilities to create things.. and colour is one of them...

how is it so strange that blind people can dream in colour... should they dream in black and white, considering that they can not see black or white either... as they can not see the colors.....

the eyes and optic nerves capture and send images to the brain for the brain to translate into image that our mind can understand.... so the key is the brain, it really has the knowledge contained in it.... and thats why the study appears so amazing.... we tend to think the brain is like a blank HD, and needing a OS loaded on it... when in fact it has a OS on it, we just need to learn to use it... just like people often understand how to use a computer but have no idea how to do anything with the ram or cards in it

[Hephaestion]

I wonder if anyone else has noticed that hand gestures that have been adopted by the US'ophiles as a sign of success.

The hand is closed with the thumb covering the 2nd and 3rd fingers, while the 1st and 4th fingers are extended. The hand therefore forms the outline of the horned beast. Guttural experssions are made and the tongue protruded in a leer.

Did this originate with the Hispanic population?

Makes plain old atheism look mild by comparison.

[void()]

Sorry , but angels & demons do exist! Encountered both last spring during death of my aged mother, my conduit into this life; also have had previous encounters; spirits are energies, the common denominator; at the end of the day, all is energy; Einstein said "Reality is an illusion, albeit a very persistent one."

Einstein was not the first to say it though, wise guy! LMFAO!!!!!

The concept of maya (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_%28illusion%29) has been here long before Christianity, Einstein. Of course, I am just some dumb and poor Appalachian hillbilly ain't supposed to know such things. Of course, I'm illiterate and unable to click pretty blue text on a screen with a manipulation device. Of course, I'm jingoistic and xenophobic to a point of not talking to other people in the world about religion, philosophy, learning, sex, housing, farming, living. Yes, I'm all that and more obviously! :) C'mon, call me stupid again, please oh please.

Go fuck yourself bozo. I was being polite and diplomatic. No more.


Heph,

Believe it stems from guitar playing, as in rock n roll bands. Although, there's other possibilities I'm sure. It isn't designate of a hand of glory, for that was considered black magic at one point. The hand of glory not only reflected evil away but cast its own curse upon the one sending ill will. This gesture you speak of may also originate from the Baphomet, which as you suggest has a goat's head in it. The whole image however is not specifically the goat's head.

There are many various Enochian symbolical references in the whole image of the title The Baphomet. Enochian by the way was the alphabet of the Kabbalah, Jewish mysticism used to decipher certain tablets containing the name of God allegedly, they still refer to it as Tettragramatton(sp?). The Jesuits borrowed from this to create a motto of INRV or rather Igna Natura Renavtora, the V being used as double to symbolize the Enochian Wav, which means ether or mist over water.

The INRV is often given to the adage, "In Nature Fire Cleanses" and one other which is politically frowned upon "It Is Just To Slay The Unjust King". In essence it means that nature rids itself of the old making way for the new in an eternal cycle. It is basic Hermetic common sense really, for one to live, one must die. *shrugs*

The Baphomet represents a scapegoat or martyr as Aleph, the magician in a Tarot deck or Celtic Cross. Yes, the Kabbalah influenced dianic wicca ("https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dianic_Wicca) , which further influenced the Woat, the Celt and Droai (a.k.a Druids). The spirit in the center of four elements, until Christianity it was considered Man. The scapegoat got it's reputation as a goat taken out to the edge of the city. Villagers came and confessed their sins to the goat. the Jewish priests would then take the goat to the sheol ( a large pit where garbage was burned ), and sacrifice it by slitting it's throat and tossing it to the flames.

I could continue further exposition on how it all some how reverts back to plain old worship of the sun, but I rather not. Tired.

[pepperjack]

I love you and your strong faith pepperjack :) I've seen Fran "devil" people before but I'm pretty sure she's not THE devil..as a matter of fact quite to the contrary I think she cares very much about the well being of her friends. Like anyone else she's just trying to make sense of the world in the best way she knows how. Human beings do love symbolism, and they love a good story..but I won't decry anyone's faith as long that it harms none. All of you atheists remember, I'm talking about personal belief, not the historical record of one or more institutions..all institutions - like the people inside of them have probably done things they aren't proud of at one time or another.

Well I appreciate ur brotherly love Elian, I am the eldest of 4 sons in my family, but my faith is not that strong; I struggle with it constantly; I just have a problem with closed minded people in denial; I'm just talking about personal belief also; I'm a sane, rational person who has experienced spiritual phenomena, not figments of my imagination. Epihany, revelation!

[pepperjack]

Einstein was not the first to say it though, wise guy! LMFAO!!!!!

The concept of maya (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_%28illusion%29) has been here long before Christianity, Einstein. Of course, I am just some dumb and poor Appalachian hillbilly ain't supposed to know such things. Of course, I'm illiterate and unable to click pretty blue text on a screen with a manipulation device. Of course, I'm jingoistic and xenophobic to a point of not talking to other people in the world about religion, philosophy, learning, sex, housing, farming, living. Yes, I'm all that and more obviously! :) C'mon, call me stupid again, please oh please.

Go fuck yourself bozo. I was being polite and diplomatic. No more.


Heph,

Believe it stems from guitar playing, as in rock n roll bands. Although, there's other possibilities I'm sure. It isn't designate of a hand of glory, for that was considered black magic at one point. The hand of glory not only reflected evil away but cast its own curse upon the one sending ill will. This gesture you speak of may also originate from the Baphomet, which as you suggest has a goat's head in it. The whole image however is not specifically the goat's head.

There are many various Enochian symbolical references in the whole image of the title The Baphomet. Enochian by the way was the alphabet of the Kabbalah, Jewish mysticism used to decipher certain tablets containing the name of God allegedly, they still refer to it as Tettragramatton(sp?). The Jesuits borrowed from this to create a motto of INRV or rather Igna Natura Renavtora, the V being used as double to symbolize the Enochian Wav, which means ether or mist over water.

The Baphomet represents a scapegoat or martyr as Aleph, the magician in a Tarot deck or Celtic Cross. Yes, the Kabbalah influenced dianic wicca ("https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dianic_Wicca) , which further influenced the Woat, the Celt and Droai (a.k.a Druids). The spirit in the center of four elements, until Christianity it was considered Man. The scapegoat got it's reputation as a goat taken out to the edge of the city. Villagers came and confessed their sins to the goat. the Jewish priests would then take the goat to the sheol ( a large pit where garbage was burned ), and sacrifice it by slitting it's throat and tossing it to the flames.

I could continue further exposition on how it all some how reverts back to plain old worship of the sun, but I rather not. Tired.

How did I in any way call u stupid? Did I not begin my post with "sorry but", meaning,I respectfully disagree? I can't see anything in my post that could provoke such a defensive & hostile response, which leads me to believe u've got a self-esteem & maybe a mental problem because u completely misinterpreted where I was coming from; somehow I touched a raw nerve w/u without trying to. And this is very ironic, & so is the timing because as I was working this evening I was pondering that ur the 1st atheist I genuinely respect because u were so profusely apologetic to me recently; well guess what? u just succeeded in completely altering my favorable opinion of u,so, I guess that makes u the "bozo"! And by the way, when I fuck myself....at least I'm having sex with someone I love!

[pepperjack]

the part about the blind people dreaming in color... its peoples ability to understand blindness that is the key to the study......

just cos a person has no sight, doesn't mean that the mind can not create images in colour.... the brain has all the tools and abilities to create things.. and colour is one of them...

how is it so strange that blind people can dream in colour... should they dream in black and white, considering that they can not see black or white either... as they can not see the colors.....

the eyes and optic nerves capture and send images to the brain for the brain to translate into image that our mind can understand.... so the key is the brain, it really has the knowledge contained in it.... and thats why the study appears so amazing.... we tend to think the brain is like a blank HD, and needing a OS loaded on it... when in fact it has a OS on it, we just need to learn to use it... just like people often understand how to use a computer but have no idea how to do anything with the ram or cards in it
The key words here were "born blind"! U lecture about how the human eye works, optic nerves sending images; how can the brain have images, either in black & white or color if the eyes have never experienced images & transmitted to the brain? still amazing to me; and yes, the marvel that is the human brain, still more powerful than computers; and I'm supposed to believe there's not some sort of divine intelligence at work here? man is just becoming more & more full of himself because of technology.

[Long Duck Dong]

yes born blind...... but its the age old understanding that we need eyes to see, that is the issue....

look at bats for instances, sharks, etc, their naturally enhanced abilities are no different to what humans can have and develop.... and their abilities far outweigh their vision...

ok blind people can tell color by feel and warmth and even by feel, its something that the average person doesn't relate to as we go by sight alone... but 70% of human interaction is not vision related, we only think it is.... blind people also have a incredible gift that is very similar to sonar in a sense..... and that is the rest of their senses work together to create a world of *sight * that people like us have trouble relating to

being a ex hunter and ex military, I gained a insight into the world of a blind person as I was often in areas where there was no ambient light, it was pitch dark and I mean dark, I could not see my own hand half a inch from my face.... yet my senses developed to the point that I can tell my surroundings and move around freely...... even pinpoint the movement of animals a few 100 feet away and be able to tell if I had a clear line of fire or not.....

if blind peoples ability to dream in colour or with images is a sign of a devine being..... then how does it work for sighted people ?

[pepperjack]

yes born blind...... but its the age old understanding that we need eyes to see, that is the issue....

look at bats for instances, sharks, etc, their naturally enhanced abilities are no different to what humans can have and develop.... and their abilities far outweigh their vision...

ok blind people can tell color by feel and warmth and even by feel, its something that the average person doesn't relate to as we go by sight alone... but 70% of human interaction is not vision related, we only think it is.... blind people also have a incredible gift that is very similar to sonar in a sense..... and that is the rest of their senses work together to create a world of *sight * that people like us have trouble relating to

being a ex hunter and ex military, I gained a insight into the world of a blind person as I was often in areas where there was no ambient light, it was pitch dark and I mean dark, I could not see my own hand half a inch from my face.... yet my senses developed to the point that I can tell my surroundings and move around freely...... even pinpoint the movement of animals a few 100 feet away and be able to tell if I had a clear line of fire or not.....

if blind peoples ability to dream in colour or with images is a sign of a devine being..... then how does it work for sighted people ?

one of my grandmothers was blind, not born that way; she amazed me at times & confused me at others; I remember a time we were alone in a vehicle: I was so quiet, she was not aware of my presence; she began to audibly pray; she thought she was alone w/God but I was also listening! During her latter years, she was very self sufficient, living alone; Few years ago, I was a taxidriver: two of my regular customers were blind people,one born that way, the other a result of brain injury; both lived alone, very self sufficient; again, they both amazed me with their uncanny abilities; one was so accurate in giving me directions, I actually became suspicious he was faking it!

[Long Duck Dong]

indeed, they are amazing people..... I would not mind being blind, in a way.... I kinda guess that I would *see * more as a blind person than I do as a sighted person.....

I have the same attitude towards gods and goddesses ..... they involve faith, trust and belief... and I can not disprove the existence of them any more than a person can prove the existence of them.... but nor do i try to..... but its very possible that the people that talk in terms of yes or no, may be like sighted people.... they may not be as aware as blind people.....

indeed I have seen things within the christian ( and other faiths ) that I simply can not explain.... but to me its not proof or disproof of gods and goddesses.... its proof that somethings defies explanation....

to prove or disprove gods and goddesses, I would need to do the impossible and prove or disprove that such beings can exist in the first place....... and how can i do that ??? how can anybody do that..... when in order to prove or disprove gods and goddesses, we have to be able to define what they are first..... and that is impossible, cos its personal to each person

[elian]

My first boss used to have a sign hanging up in his office that was written in broken old english, it said: "More power added to unwife men only increafef their fphere of wrongdoing." I am happy to encourage all of you in your spiritual development (even if that means the pursuit of scientific knowledge) but remember that no person is perfect, however each person is worthy of love and respect. I almost have to concede to the people who simply responded saying "religion sucks" because ultimately it always seems to end up degenerating into a bunch of name calling and everybody goes away dissatisfied and hurting.

As some of you are responding I can sense a little bit of your insecurity poking through, just like when we are in an intimate relationship we make ourselves vulnerable - these thoughts, what we believe about life and death are also some of the most vulnerable beliefs we hold close..very sensitive..it's okay to challenge someone to think differently but remember to treat everyone with as much love and respect as you can.

Yesterday was a hard day for me, it's been kind of a rough week - I'm having the house worked on and everything is torn up at home, I ended up driving to Baltimore and back in the rain yesterday, meeting with all kinds of folks (for an introvert that's scary), driving back late in rush hour traffic, car appointment after work (lots of money to be spent), stopped at grocery store on the way home, finally got home around 8PM, house is ripped apart even more - sat down to eat supper and listened to two phone messages with people wanting more..a very worthwhile day actually, but pretty emotionally demanding. After being woken up at 1AM with no curtains in the house, can't sleep for seeing too many streetlights in the windows I reflected on the prior day. A still small voice remarked - "Everywhere you go, you are surrounded by people who love you." ..I pondered this for a second and for as hard as that day was it was true, from saying Good morning, to talking to a person struggling with mental issues and a hard life on the train, to the folks I got to share a potluck lunch with yesterday, even the people in traffic, although we were all frustrated by the congestion we were all just trying to make it home..other people waiting on their cars to be fixed and the employees at the service station - it made a difference because all of those people wanted to be happy, they showed me love - if any of them would have been completely rude and ignorant it would have made the day just unbearable, but somehow it was bearable because a handful of people showed compassion even in the face of hardship..somehow we made it through together despite a dreary rainy day.

[keefer201]

God did not install a religion in Adam and Eve. What he gave them was the ability to openly communicate with him.

[Hephaestion]

Einstein was not the first to say it though, wise guy! LMFAO!!!!!

The concept of maya (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_%28illusion%29) has been here long before Christianity, Einstein. Of course, I am just some dumb and poor Appalachian hillbilly ain't supposed to know such things. Of course, I'm illiterate and unable to click pretty blue text on a screen with a manipulation device. Of course, I'm jingoistic and xenophobic to a point of not talking to other people in the world about religion, philosophy, learning, sex, housing, farming, living. Yes, I'm all that and more obviously! :) C'mon, call me stupid again, please oh please.

Go fuck yourself bozo. I was being polite and diplomatic. No more.


Heph,

Believe it stems from guitar playing, as in rock n roll bands. Although, there's other possibilities I'm sure. It isn't designate of a hand of glory, for that was considered black magic at one point. The hand of glory not only reflected evil away but cast its own curse upon the one sending ill will. This gesture you speak of may also originate from the Baphomet, which as you suggest has a goat's head in it. The whole image however is not specifically the goat's head.

There are many various Enochian symbolical references in the whole image of the title The Baphomet. Enochian by the way was the alphabet of the Kabbalah, Jewish mysticism used to decipher certain tablets containing the name of God allegedly, they still refer to it as Tettragramatton(sp?). The Jesuits borrowed from this to create a motto of INRV or rather Igna Natura Renavtora, the V being used as double to symbolize the Enochian Wav, which means ether or mist over water.

The INRV is often given to the adage, "In Nature Fire Cleanses" and one other which is politically frowned upon "It Is Just To Slay The Unjust King". In essence it means that nature rids itself of the old making way for the new in an eternal cycle. It is basic Hermetic common sense really, for one to live, one must die. *shrugs*

The Baphomet represents a scapegoat or martyr as Aleph, the magician in a Tarot deck or Celtic Cross. Yes, the Kabbalah influenced dianic wicca ("https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dianic_Wicca) , which further influenced the Woat, the Celt and Droai (a.k.a Druids). The spirit in the center of four elements, until Christianity it was considered Man. The scapegoat got it's reputation as a goat taken out to the edge of the city. Villagers came and confessed their sins to the goat. the Jewish priests would then take the goat to the sheol ( a large pit where garbage was burned ), and sacrifice it by slitting it's throat and tossing it to the flames.

I could continue further exposition on how it all some how reverts back to plain old worship of the sun, but I rather not. Tired.

How interesting Void.
a) One assume that there is part continuance of the scapegoat practice in that of the sin-eater.

b) It is also curious that there is a practice of curse reversal in so many beliefs.

c) As in all adapations and evolution, what a clever marketing ploy to adapt INBI/INRI to INRV. Tetra Gramaton four letters (symbol implied).

d) The center of the 4 elelments would seem to continue to be man but as one specific individual. I understood that Christianity survivied because it came to Europe via Greek culture, readily accepted because they had a long standing totem to the unknown God. At the same time, the Greco-Roman Empire had moved its official headquarters to Greek Byzantium renamed Constantinopolis. Of course the Emperor's wife (Thedora) having adopted Christianity helped.

In PJ defence? Was Einstein the first to coalesce the formulation in (peer reviewed?) scientific publication and so to nourish the seeds of the atomic bomb.

Love this thread - it knows no limits.

[void()]

How did I in any way call u stupid? Did I not begin my post with "sorry but", meaning,I respectfully disagree? I can't see anything in my post that could provoke such a defensive & hostile response, which leads me to believe u've got a self-esteem & maybe a mental problem because u completely misinterpreted where I was coming from; somehow I touched a raw nerve w/u without trying to. And this is very ironic, & so is the timing because as I was working this evening I was pondering that ur the 1st atheist I genuinely respect because u were so profusely apologetic to me recently; well guess what? u just succeeded in completely altering my favorable opinion of u,so, I guess that makes u the "bozo"! And by the way, when I fuck myself....at least I'm having sex with someone I love!

LOL

By constant inference of attempting to 'one up', you seem also to be implying my stupidity. Of course, as you note I do have a few mental issues. I have never claimed not having mental issues. Yes some of those issues pertain to the emotionality of self esteem.

In growing up I suffered abuse, ironically this abuse was channeled by a 'righteous God fearing Christian'. I realize not all Christians are not that specific one. At times however I stumble and recall the abuses. We are all human beings and thereby all flawed to a degree.

So, this was the motivation and backdrop of my recent comments to you. Yes, you hit a raw nerve. I ought to not wear my heart on the sleeve, either. Forgive me caring so much. If you do not, can understand that as well. In the end I think we all are bozos at times.

Heph,

a) One assume that there is part continuance of the scapegoat practice in that of the sin-eater.

Yes, the practice of sin eaters especially at funeral wakes here in the Southern U.S., does intimately tie back to this practice. Sin eating can still be done as a profession of sorts here. Much like professional funeral weepers. Often at Southern funerals mysterious folks appear at wakes, they come and eat of the food, often gorging themselves. They are unknown guests but none turn them away. The sin eaters on their part do not cause trouble, eat and nod respects to family, then go.

b) It is also curious that there is a practice of curse reversal in so many beliefs.

As you point out, evil does exist. May be a non-believer of many things but do believe evil exists, have seen more than enough of it.

c) As in all adapations and evolution, what a clever marketing ploy to adapt INBI/INRI to INRV. Tetra Gramaton four letters (symbol implied).

Marketing or just a Universal Truth? And this reminds me of an obvious work of fiction written by Anne Rice, _Merrick (http://www.annerice.com/Bookshelf-Merrick.html)_. In it one of the leading protagonists comments "Christian,Jew,Islam,Hindu,VooDoo,HooDoo it's all the same magic". I paraphrase out of memory but not context, meaning I read the work some time ago and the gist of my paraphrasing is the same as the author presented. I'm not twisting words to fit. More and more upon inspection it becomes clear "it's all the same magic" makes sense.

d) The center of the 4 elelments would seem to continue to be man but as one specific individual. I understood that Christianity survivied because it came to Europe via Greek culture, readily accepted because they had a long standing totem to the unknown God. At the same time, the Greco-Roman Empire had moved its official headquarters to Greek Byzantium renamed Constantinopolis. Of course the Emperor's wife (Thedora) having adopted Christianity helped.

Yes on one specific individual. In Christianity's case that is the christos, Muslims have Mohamed, Hindu has Kali (pardon the Thugi reference), and so on for each respective belief syntax. Greeks borrowed heavily from Egyptian, and Egyptian from Sumerian who refer to Enki as the 'christos' and godhead. Which is interesting because Sumerians also had sects of Mythrians, whom held Mythra or Light as the godhead. Wow, all comes back to solar worship really if one views it as such.

I like Lunar worship but then again being a lunatic, guess that stands to reason. :)

[Hephaestion]

LOL

.....Wow, all comes back to solar worship really if one views it as such.

I like Lunar worship but then again being a lunatic, guess that stands to reason. :)

Why it's our good old friend stellar evolution implicated.

[void()]

Why it's our good old friend stellar evolution implicated.

All children of the stars ... hm ... *chuckles*

[darkeyes]

Denial & doublespeak! this post absolutely confirms my points of rambling, nonsensical, pseudo-intellectuallism.:rolleyes:

Think u should nip off an have quick look see at wot pseudo-intellectual means... an look up ramblin' and nonsensical wile yas at it... an doublespeak an all..

..all seems pretty basic understandable and straightforward to me:)

[elian]

All children of the stars ... hm ... *chuckles*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h04Y38aZkwY

The lyrics are in the description of the clip..

[pepperjack]

indeed, they are amazing people..... I would not mind being blind, in a way.... I kinda guess that I would *see * more as a blind person than I do as a sighted person.....

I have the same attitude towards gods and goddesses ..... they involve faith, trust and belief... and I can not disprove the existence of them any more than a person can prove the existence of them.... but nor do i try to..... but its very possible that the people that talk in terms of yes or no, may be like sighted people.... they may not be as aware as blind people.....

indeed I have seen things within the christian ( and other faiths ) that I simply can not explain.... but to me its not proof or disproof of gods and goddesses.... its proof that somethings defies explanation....

to prove or disprove gods and goddesses, I would need to do the impossible and prove or disprove that such beings can exist in the first place....... and how can i do that ??? how can anybody do that..... when in order to prove or disprove gods and goddesses, we have to be able to define what they are first..... and that is impossible, cos its personal to each person

Jesus said, "...more blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe."

[pepperjack]

LOL

By constant inference of attempting to 'one up', you seem also to be implying my stupidity. Of course, as you note I do have a few mental issues. I have never claimed not having mental issues. Yes some of those issues pertain to the emotionality of self esteem.

In growing up I suffered abuse, ironically this abuse was channeled by a 'righteous God fearing Christian'. I realize not all Christians are not that specific one. At times however I stumble and recall the abuses. We are all human beings and thereby all flawed to a degree.

So, this was the motivation and backdrop of my recent comments to you. Yes, you hit a raw nerve. I ought to not wear my heart on the sleeve, either. Forgive me caring so much. If you do not, can understand that as well. In the end I think we all are bozos at times.

Heph,

a) One assume that there is part continuance of the scapegoat practice in that of the sin-eater.

Yes, the practice of sin eaters especially at funeral wakes here in the Southern U.S., does intimately tie back to this practice. Sin eating can still be done as a profession of sorts here. Much like professional funeral weepers. Often at Southern funerals mysterious folks appear at wakes, they come and eat of the food, often gorging themselves. They are unknown guests but none turn them away. The sin eaters on their part do not cause trouble, eat and nod respects to family, then go.

b) It is also curious that there is a practice of curse reversal in so many beliefs.

As you point out, evil does exist. May be a non-believer of many things but do believe evil exists, have seen more than enough of it.

c) As in all adapations and evolution, what a clever marketing ploy to adapt INBI/INRI to INRV. Tetra Gramaton four letters (symbol implied).

Marketing or just a Universal Truth? And this reminds me of an obvious work of fiction written by Anne Rice, _Merrick (http://www.annerice.com/Bookshelf-Merrick.html)_. In it one of the leading protagonists comments "Christian,Jew,Islam,Hindu,VooDoo,HooDoo it's all the same magic". I paraphrase out of memory but not context, meaning I read the work some time ago and the gist of my paraphrasing is the same as the author presented. I'm not twisting words to fit. More and more upon inspection it becomes clear "it's all the same magic" makes sense.

d) The center of the 4 elelments would seem to continue to be man but as one specific individual. I understood that Christianity survivied because it came to Europe via Greek culture, readily accepted because they had a long standing totem to the unknown God. At the same time, the Greco-Roman Empire had moved its official headquarters to Greek Byzantium renamed Constantinopolis. Of course the Emperor's wife (Thedora) having adopted Christianity helped.

Yes on one specific individual. In Christianity's case that is the christos, Muslims have Mohamed, Hindu has Kali (pardon the Thugi reference), and so on for each respective belief syntax. Greeks borrowed heavily from Egyptian, and Egyptian from Sumerian who refer to Enki as the 'christos' and godhead. Which is interesting because Sumerians also had sects of Mythrians, whom held Mythra or Light as the godhead. Wow, all comes back to solar worship really if one views it as such.

I like Lunar worship but then again being a lunatic, guess that stands to reason. :)

Ur asking me to forgive u for caring too much which makes no sense to me; how can I forgive u of that when it's not a wrongdoing? And caring too much about what? I'm also a victim of abuse, so I understand; I'm also sensitive, emotional & combative at times; and also especially sensitive to word stupid because I know that I have above average intelligence. I was actually agreeing w/some of ur comments, u just couldn't see it, but ur buddy Heph did, when he said, "interesting p.j. curiously similar to void". It was similar deliberately so! What u refer to as " vibrational resonance" I refer to as an energy, which is what I believe spirits are. And also, being part Native American, I believe in the spirits of all living creatures, & see the earth as a living entity in rebellion against man's abuse. I was simply disagreeing w/u. U denied the existence of angels/demons, I disagreed. The death of my mother was a culmination, a profoundly spiritual as well as emotional experience. I was highly sensitized, felt strong spiritual forces around me. I'm reluctant to use the word "psychic" because it opens me to further ridicule & attack, but I have been told that I am,quite often by now. I'm also a logical & rational man; I have just experienced things that defy rational explanation; anyway, that's the background I was coming from; water under the bridge now; all is forgiven; peace; by the way, Heph, thanx for "coming to my defence."

[pepperjack]

Think u should nip off an have quick look see at wot pseudo-intellectual means... an look up ramblin' and nonsensical wile yas at it... an doublespeak an all..

..all seems pretty basic understandable and straightforward to me:)

Don't need to! wouldn't have used those words if I didn't know what they meant. U made alot of sense to me in some of ur previous posts, but not this one; U completely contradict urself in 1st 2 phrases; reminds me of an atheist I met awhile back who claimed to be " an atheist who believes in God" And when I said, "that makes no sense," he replied, " I don't need to make any sense!" ok; u make ur own rules; the universe revolves around u! Does nip off mean fuck off like shag means fuck?:rolleyes:

[darkeyes]

Don't need to! wouldn't have used those words if I didn't know what they meant. U made alot of sense to me in some of ur previous posts, but not this one; U completely contradict urself in 1st 2 phrases; reminds me of an atheist I met awhile back who claimed to be " an atheist who believes in God" And when I said, "that makes no sense," he replied, " I don't need to make any sense!" ok; u make ur own rules; the universe revolves around u! Does nip off mean fuck off like shag means fuck?:rolleyes:

No babes... "nip off" just means to go sharpish (quickly if u prefer).. it has no other meaning than that.... and to clarify... I do not denounce the reality of God. Since he is not real so how can I denounce what is not real?? That seems a whole waste of breathe to me? I deny his existence because he is not real... it still seems simple to me...

[void()]

Ur asking me to forgive u for caring too much which makes no sense to me; how can I forgive u of that when it's not a wrongdoing? And caring too much about what? I'm also a victim of abuse, so I understand; I'm also sensitive, emotional & combative at times; and also especially sensitive to word stupid because I know that I have above average intelligence. I was actually agreeing w/some of ur comments, u just couldn't see it, but ur buddy Heph did, when he said, "interesting p.j. curiously similar to void". It was similar deliberately so! What u refer to as " vibrational resonance" I refer to as an energy, which is what I believe spirits are. And also, being part Native American, I believe in the spirits of all living creatures, & see the earth as a living entity in rebellion against man's abuse. I was simply disagreeing w/u. U denied the existence of angels/demons, I disagreed. The death of my mother was a culmination, a profoundly spiritual as well as emotional experience. I was highly sensitized, felt strong spiritual forces around me. I'm reluctant to use the word "psychic" because it opens me to further ridicule & attack, but I have been told that I am,quite often by now. I'm also a logical & rational man; I have just experienced things that defy rational explanation; anyway, that's the background I was coming from; water under the bridge now; all is forgiven; peace; by the way, Heph, thanx for "coming to my defence."

I was born under veil also. We can agree on energies being spirits. I still disagree about angels and demons. These are both words linked to ideas man created. Energy exists despite us making it up. You ought to try reading a comic book series I once read, it was called _Grendel_. There were two or three different sub arcs involved in this series. One of them was highly philosophical and spiritual. One of the characters runs around defecating everywhere without shame. The new grendel takes him to task over it. The reply was, "no good, no evil just is." This defines energy to me, until one crafts intention to direct it, even then energy is but the tool. It is the intent you call good or evil. Where did you learn judgement?

[pepperjack]

No babes... "nip off" just means to go sharpish (quickly if u prefer).. it has no other meaning than that.... and to clarify... I do not denounce the reality of God. Since he is not real so how can I denounce what is not real?? That seems a whole waste of breathe to me? I deny his existence because he is not real... it still seems simple to me...

It's still convoluted doublespeak to me,masquerading as logic.

[pepperjack]

I was born under veil also. We can agree on energies being spirits. I still disagree about angels and demons. These are both words linked to ideas man created. Energy exists despite us making it up. You ought to try reading a comic book series I once read, it was called _Grendel_. There were two or three different sub arcs involved in this series. One of them was highly philosophical and spiritual. One of the characters runs around defecating everywhere without shame. The new grendel takes him to task over it. The reply was, "no good, no evil just is." This defines energy to me, until one crafts intention to direct it, even then energy is but the tool. It is the intent you call good or evil. Where did you learn judgement?

Yes, energy exists; exactly why I said at the end of the day , it's the great common denominator. "And God said unto Moses I AM That I AM:and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you." Exodus3:14.

[darkeyes]

It's still convoluted doublespeak to me,masquerading as logic.

I dunno... Americans.. maybe the nasty ole war monger wos rite... 2 peeps separated by a common language..:rolleyes:

[elian]

She says she doesn't believe in God or other supernatural entities, I'm not sure how that is doublespeak or ill-logic..

Does that make you uncomfortable? Do you think that someone absolutely needs God in order to be a moral person, believe in and do the "right" thing or is compassion inborn?

Some people are content enough to do with what they can see, feel, taste, smell..I wouldn't insinuate they are deficient just because they think differently than you..she is not harming anyone by choosing to deny the supernatural.

Some of these people I admire because they aren't waiting for the world of the "hereafter" in order for things to get better - they're directly trying to fix the one we already have.

[pepperjack]

She says she doesn't believe in God or other supernatural entities, I'm not sure how that is doublespeak or ill-logic..

Does that make you uncomfortable? Do you think that someone absolutely needs God in order to be a moral person, believe in and do the "right" thing or is compassion inborn?

Some people are content enough to do with what they can see, feel, taste, smell..I wouldn't insinuate they are deficient just because they think differently than you..she is not harming anyone by choosing to deny the supernatural.

Some of these people I admire because they aren't waiting for the world of the "hereafter" in order for things to get better - they're directly trying to fix the one we already have.

Ok Elian, her original post that I responded to says, "I have never denounced the reality of God....denied his existence enough times...". The statement completely contradicts itself in one breath. She is denying that she denies the existence of God,which is doublespeak. Politicians indulge in it constantly. Did I say she was immoral or deficient? No. You're reading that into my words; which is what I have an issue with; her choice of words. Why couldn't she have said, "I choose to not believe in the reality of God" instead of coming on here and proclaiming "there is no God", as if she is some sort of authority with concrete proof? Her choice of words just came across as so arrogant & know-it -all. I've noticed this extreme arrogance with every atheist I've encountered so far,save one. Just happened to be hashing this over with a well read intelligent co-worker and he revealed that his father is an atheist. He claims to be agnostic; said it was hell growing up w/him & agreed w/me that atheists come across as arrogant, in know-it all-denial and basically summed up his father as "mean-spirited all the time." Does this clarify where I was coming from?

[Hephaestion]

I dunno... Americans.. maybe the nasty ole war monger wos rite... 2 peeps separated by a common language..:rolleyes:

Ne''er mind. At least they are begining to understand and use the word 'shag' correctly - dancing indeed! We wait patiently for them to understand what a 'fanny' is and get around to adjusting to what 'football' really means.

[elian]

Just happened to be hashing this over with a well read intelligent co-worker and he revealed that his father is an atheist. He claims to be agnostic; said it was hell growing up w/him & agreed w/me that atheists come across as arrogant, in know-it all-denial and basically summed up his father as "mean-spirited all the time." Does this clarify where I was coming from?

My best friend wasn't always an atheist but is now and I told him that I'm finally glad he found religion because he evangelizes now more for atheism then he ever did before.. but that's just who he is - he's still my friend and I appreciate his "rational thinking" for what it is.. It would be a shame to say that all atheists are "mean spirited" .. I hope that is not what you intended to say. I guess I should just stay out of this thread because all I've ever wanted to do was love and appreciate people for who they are - and when it comes down to it I seem to have trouble doing that..all I've really managed to do so far is stir up trouble..just been through a lot this week..kinda tired and wish I could just fall asleep in someone's arms and not worry about this stuff anymore.

I hope that some day atheists realize that all Christians aren't bad people, and I hope some day that Christians realize that all atheists aren't bad people, and I hope some day I can have a husband in more than just my dreams without people thinking I'm the scum of the Earth. Just want to be happy, - I think that's what most people want - is that too much to ask?

[darkeyes]

Ok Elian, her original post that I responded to says, "I have never denounced the reality of God....denied his existence enough times...". The statement completely contradicts itself in one breath. She is denying that she denies the existence of God,which is doublespeak.

I think you are confusing British/Scottish and American definitions of the terms.. which is why I wrote my last post... it is extremely easy in British/Scottish English to deny something without denouncing it... I reject belief in God but do not denounce others for having it or God his/her or itself.. I have and will denounce the belief systems which surround belief in God, although I do think denounce is an emotive word which is too strong, but I will argue my corner as I would expect others to argue theirs....equally many of the principles of belief I have always said I can and accept and indeed live by.. not belief in some supreme being, but tenets of behaviour and morality.. you may think it doublespeak.. but it is not... the words denounce and deny are used in very different contexts and do not have the same meaning.. it is easy therefore for me to declare myself an athiest and reject belief in God yet not denounce God him/her or itself because to me denouncing God is akin to denouncing any other mythical being. To be denounced, one must first exist... I deny God because I do not accept his/her or it's existence...

I don't know whether there is no God any more than the most ardent believer knows for certain that there is... but I have as much faith that their isnt, for all my logic and reasoning tells me so.. I do not believe there is a God.. it is more than a belief but is a certainty in my own mind as far as it can be.. I am much more than agnostic for my own reasoning dismisses the existence of a divine creator.. it is therefore very easy for me to declare that there is no God.. it is every bit as easy for me to say it and mean it as it is for any Christian or person of any other faith to declare the opposite...

[darkeyes]

Ne''er mind. At least they are begining to understand and use the word 'shag' correctly - dancing indeed! We wait patiently for them to understand what a 'fanny' is and get around to adjusting to what 'football' really means.

A shag is a cormorant kinda bird innit Heph? tee hee...:tong:

They'll get there Heph about "fanny"... talkin of wich me a cuppla times in chat had 2 take peeps to task wen they called me Fanny... hate Frannie or Franny as it is.. but Fanny??? OMG!:eek:

Anyas rite bout football... soccer is wot nobs called footie.. football course is wot u lot down ther call fitba'... so gerrit rite u!!!! C'way the Jambos!!!!!!!:bigrin:

ps.. I don't really say fitba'.. me dad dus an am surrounded by peeps who do wen me goes Tynie.. common as muck me ole man... teach 'im 2 get me an eddication an makin sure me speak propa!!!...:eek:

[Darkside2009]

Pepperjack was correct, your words were a tautology. However that is not really important, you may believe or disbelieve as you so wish. I just wish you would show a modicum of sensitivity and tolerance towards others who do not share your beliefs on this site.

I can't see anyone castigating your Socialist beliefs in such a strident manner on this site, yet you seem to feel entitled to belittle the beliefs of others by calling them irrational and their thought processes warped because they do not believe as you do.

If you want to see irrational you need look no further than your bathroom mirror, blaming one's Father for the failures of his generation is not exactly logical is it?

I have no idea of your Father's age, but I'm fairly sure he must be getting on in years and that he and your Mother have both did their best to raise you as best they could and to give you advantages that were not afforded to either of them.

I'm sure your words have offended him deeply and I suggest you apologise to him as soon as possible. We have an old adage in Ireland about an ungrateful child being worse than a serpent's bite.

As to the OP of this thread he/she has a habit of making controversial remarks and then sitting back to watch the ensuing mayhem. I suggest we stop feeding his/her games.

Whether one believes in God or not is one's personal choice and the business of no one but themselves, one might as well try to explain why one has a favourite colour, or favourite meal.

To those who do not believe no amount of evidence will suffice, to those who do believe, no evidence is necessary, that is why it is called Faith.

[pepperjack]

I think you are confusing British/Scottish and American definitions of the terms.. which is why I wrote my last post... it is extremely easy in British/Scottish English to deny something without denouncing it... I reject belief in God but do not denounce others for having it or God his/her or itself.. I have and will denounce the belief systems which surround belief in God, although I do think denounce is an emotive word which is too strong, but I will argue my corner as I would expect others to argue theirs....equally many of the principles of belief I have always said I can and accept and indeed live by.. not belief in some supreme being, but tenets of behaviour and morality.. you may think it doublespeak.. but it is not... the words denounce and deny are used in very different contexts and do not have the same meaning.. it is easy therefore for me to declare myself an athiest and reject belief in God yet not denounce God him/her or itself because to me denouncing God is akin to denouncing any other mythical being. To be denounced, one must first exist... I deny God because I do not accept his/her or it's existence...

I don't know whether there is no God any more than the most ardent believer knows for certain that there is... but I have as much faith that their isnt, for all my logic and reasoning tells me so.. I do not believe there is a God.. it is more than a belief but is a certainty in my own mind as far as it can be.. I am much more than agnostic for my own reasoning dismisses the existence of a divine creator.. it is therefore very easy for me to declare that there is no God.. it is every bit as easy for me to say it and mean it as it is for any Christian or person of any other faith to declare the opposite...

Now ur making more sense! In a roundabout way ur saying, "I choose to not believe in God." Yes ur right, the word denounce is strong, emotive, and like most words, has several definitions similar in meaning.My meaning was to announce or proclaim, esp. publicly.It is also easy for me to claim that there is a God, because He has revealed himself to me, and I have logic & reason also.I feel a sadness for u because I sense something happened in ur life to give u this outlook, but if u're happy as an atheist , so be it. Peace.

[pepperjack]

Pepperjack was correct, your words were a tautology. However that is not really important, you may believe or disbelieve as you so wish. I just wish you would show a modicum of sensitivity and tolerance towards others who do not share your beliefs on this site.

I can't see anyone castigating your Socialist beliefs in such a strident manner on this site, yet you seem to feel entitled to belittle the beliefs of others by calling them irrational and their thought processes warped because they do not believe as you do.

If you want to see irrational you need look no further than your bathroom mirror, blaming one's Father for the failures of his generation is not exactly logical is it?

I have no idea of your Father's age, but I'm fairly sure he must be getting on in years and that he and your Mother have both did their best to raise you as best they could and to give you advantages that were not afforded to either of them.

I'm sure your words have offended him deeply and I suggest you apologise to him as soon as possible. We have an old adage in Ireland about an ungrateful child being worse than a serpent's bite.

As to the OP of this thread he/she has a habit of making controversial remarks and then sitting back to watch the ensuing mayhem. I suggest we stop feeding his/her games.

Whether one believes in God or not is one's personal choice and the business of no one but themselves, one might as well try to explain why one has a favourite colour, or favourite meal.

To those who do not believe no amount of evidence will suffice, to those who do believe, no evidence is necessary, that is why it is called Faith.

Excellently worded once again Darkside.

[void()]

A shag is a cormorant kinda bird innit Heph? tee hee...:tong:

They'll get there Heph about "fanny"... talkin of wich me a cuppla times in chat had 2 take peeps to task wen they called me Fanny... hate Frannie or Franny as it is.. but Fanny??? OMG!:eek:

Anyas rite bout football... soccer is wot nobs called footie.. football course is wot u lot down ther call fitba'... so gerrit rite u!!!! C'way the Jambos!!!!!!!:bigrin:

ps.. I don't really say fitba'.. me dad dus an am surrounded by peeps who do wen me goes Tynie.. common as muck me ole man... teach 'im 2 get me an eddication an makin sure me speak propa!!!...:eek:

Least no one is flinging git, twat, nacy, or ruddy shite. Surprised I've not been suessed as royal nutter, although figure it rain clear. I do note Fran is not geordie. Knew a lass lived in South sheilds, worked in Newcastle ... she was a geordie sure. Her pub had troubles with a bloke popping customers of female persuasion off by garrote. Not a nice chap but quite docile enough for bulls one morn after I caught wind of im. He's prolly still trying to figure out Pluto's trade puzzle I left his noggin in.

Don't care much o'r footie, rugby, cricket, baseball, merikan football, tennis, hokey though if pressed as a fan I say ne'r walk alone .... always 'ang together fer Manchester United.

[darkeyes]

Least no one is flinging git, twat, nacy, or ruddy shite. Surprised I've not been suessed as royal nutter, although figure it rain clear. I do note Fran is not geordie. Knew a lass lived in South sheilds, worked in Newcastle ... she was a geordie sure. Her pub had troubles with a bloke popping customers of female persuasion off by garrote. Not a nice chap but quite docile enough for bulls one morn after I caught wind of im. He's prolly still trying to figure out Pluto's trade puzzle I left his noggin in.

Don't care much o'r footie, rugby, cricket, baseball, merikan football, tennis, hokey though if pressed as a fan I say ne'r walk alone .... always 'ang together fer Manchester United.

Garotte huh? Well 'e sounds like a nice boy... am in Geordie land from time 2 time Voidie.. fun place wiv triff pubs n clubs.. very lively lgbt scene an all.. luffly girls.. sexiest accent me knows.. is a place full of nutters tho.. bit like 'ere.. but nice nutters mostly... just don mention Man Utd 'mong ther company.. it dusn go down well at all... footie at St James is a fun aftanoon... unless yas a Sunderland fan... ne'er the twain shall meet.. no love lost ther... outside a Man Utd an Liverpool its prob the most bitter rivalry in English footie... but it don haff make for gud crack (wich dusn mean dope production 4 yas ask..).

..an' You'll Never Walk Alone? Ya has the wrong team ther babes... me mums family wud hav a fit bein Red's 2 through an through... that's Liverpool's anthem... tho they 2 play in red they not the Reds tho they say they r.. but for mummy dearest's lot... United r the boys ('cept for a cuppla renegades who support City)...the Red Devils.. THE Reds... gud crack at Utd Liverpool matches 2... spesh at the Liverpool end... rite lotta scallies an witty as f**k...no love lost ther.. footie is the religion of the 2 Red teams an ther supporters.. God don usually come into it.. cept mayb as profanity..

Butya shud try cricket sumtime.. don mind cricket.. sittin in sun watchin a day's cricket.. wen me goes down ther quite often take in a day's play at Old Trafford.. sit an drink in the sun... sleepin is fun..unavoidable at times... read the Guardian, listen 2 radio, chat.. hav a few giggles... plan ya nite out.. least ya arse don get groped at Old Trafford cricket ground... wich is moren can b sed of Old Trafford footie ground.. just take a brolly in case of rain.. prob need it..

[darkeyes]

Pepperjack was correct, your words were a tautology. However that is not really important, you may believe or disbelieve as you so wish. I just wish you would show a modicum of sensitivity and tolerance towards others who do not share your beliefs on this site.

I can't see anyone castigating your Socialist beliefs in such a strident manner on this site, yet you seem to feel entitled to belittle the beliefs of others by calling them irrational and their thought processes warped because they do not believe as you do.

If you want to see irrational you need look no further than your bathroom mirror, blaming one's Father for the failures of his generation is not exactly logical is it?

I have no idea of your Father's age, but I'm fairly sure he must be getting on in years and that he and your Mother have both did their best to raise you as best they could and to give you advantages that were not afforded to either of them.

I'm sure your words have offended him deeply and I suggest you apologise to him as soon as possible. We have an old adage in Ireland about an ungrateful child being worse than a serpent's bite.

As to the OP of this thread he/she has a habit of making controversial remarks and then sitting back to watch the ensuing mayhem. I suggest we stop feeding his/her games.

Whether one believes in God or not is one's personal choice and the business of no one but themselves, one might as well try to explain why one has a favourite colour, or favourite meal.

To those who do not believe no amount of evidence will suffice, to those who do believe, no evidence is necessary, that is why it is called Faith.

I think if you were to search back you will find my socialist and other beliefs castigated at least as much if not more so than I have done about the religious beliefs of others.. and mostly I have taken them in pretty good grace but I am fallible and must admit to the occasional tetchiness..

If I have called the thought processes of those who believe in God warped and irrational then I do apologise.. it is simply that my rationale tells me that belief in a supranatural being, a great creator is irrational but am aware that others take a different view.. as far as warped is concerned my contention is that the originators of what I believe to be a great deception were warped for the lie they spread about God or Gods has corrupted humankind for millenia.. a lie spread for purposes of their own, and perpetuated by others, not all believers for purposes of their own.. most of those who believe in God I do not believe to be warped and it is not something I believe or have ever believed.. that many who profess to believe in God, many in all faiths are warped and twisted and use that faith for their own ends is undeniable.. from my perspective most who have faith in God believe because it has been instilled in them from before they were old enough to even remember, by people who themselves had it instilled in them before they were old enough to remember... just as I had no religion whatever instilled in me whatever before I was old enough to remember.. but my parents did not teach me that God did not exist even although neither believed in God.. the subject was never discussed at home until after I started primary school, and if I did choose not to believe, I do not remember doing so... it always seemed to me to be far too fantastic and unreal...and in those days I did believe in fairies and Santa Claus.. and those beliefs did not come from my parents either..

*Laughs*.. I am sure my dad would be delighted that you think he is getting on in years.. he is getting on a bit but he still works, still has zest for life and is some years away from retirement age although he could afford to retire now and he and mum would be ok..

.. but if you seriously believe I am an ungrateful child I can assure you that is not and never has been the case at least not since I was a proper child.. spoiled yes.. that I cant deny.. but not ungrateful.. never ungrateful.. what I am now is down to my dad more than any other human being.. he gave me love, affection, resources, an education, a capacity to work hard, and a sense of fun.. he made huge sacrifices, along with my mum for my brother, sister and I to be given the opportunity to achieve what we want out of life, and the determination to go out and get it... he instilled in us self belief and a sense of justice.. he encouraged us with our dreams and assisted us no end.. for all that, for me to be ungrateful would be ungrateful indeed..

There is something you must understand about my family... we are a politically minded lot..all left of centre in some way.. the sense of fairness and justice my father, my mother too, but principally my dad instilled in us, becoming left of centre was inevitable although you may not agree.. that I am far to the left of dad, mum or my siblings is just how I have used my rationale to work out my own place politically.. from a young age, certain things were taught us.. compassion, tolerance, understanding or at least the effort to understand, and most of all love.. not to hurt or kill, never to lie or cheat (and learned the hard way about those last two), not to steal.. not to ridicule the beliefs of others.. never to condemn on the basis or race creed or religion.. some of these things you may well find funny, but it is how we were raised.. love of life and the sheer joy of living.. at times I have failed as we all fail ourselves from time to time, and I have failed my dad.. I have to live with those failures.....

...but what my dad would NEVER want or expect of me was an apology for saying to him what I felt if it was heartfelt and honest... for being a politically minded family, we argued about politics and the world at large.. a lot.. he would not and did not condemn me my criticism of his generation, for in large part he shares that criticism.. not all of it.. but much of it.. he may have thought and did think some of my criticism unfair, and told me so in no uncertain terms but he did not ask for, wish for or expect an apology.. what he expects of me is not an apology for what I think of his generation or any other generation.. but an acceptance of the fault and failures of my own, not just when my children are my age or later, but for our faults and failures now..and acceptance of my personal responsibility for my contribution or lack of it to making our world better, and ensuring my generation does better than did his.. and that is something which I will not avoid.. my responsibility for my own failure and my generation's failure now and in the future.. nor shall I shrink from responsibility for any mistakes I make in raising the next generation either at home or at work..or elsewhere for that matter..

You may think me unfeeling, intolerant and lacking in sensitivity, Darkside.. in general, I am none of these things I don't think.. however hard I come accross on others, is as nothing as to how hard I can be on myself for my own failures in all aspects of character and life..

[void()]

"..an' You'll Never Walk Alone? Ya has the wrong team ther babes... me mums family wud hav a fit bein Red's 2 through an through... that's Liverpool's anthem... "

Bloody ell, thought it was Manchester nay Liverfool. Oh well, i sit corrected an fair enough apologize. Parasol probably handy fer shade as well even ifn they be no rain. N'r been a sports bloke, car bloke,bike blike ... I is weird. dinnae like dresses n furls either. Just never taken to much what considered guy things. i fish, stalk, swim, hike recently starting into some knock about carpentry. I'm weird, nearly feared o' leavin the house at times.

[darkeyes]

Now ur making more sense! In a roundabout way ur saying, "I choose to not believe in God." Yes ur right, the word denounce is strong, emotive, and like most words, has several definitions similar in meaning.My meaning was to announce or proclaim, esp. publicly.It is also easy for me to claim that there is a God, because He has revealed himself to me, and I have logic & reason also.I feel a sadness for u because I sense something happened in ur life to give u this outlook, but if u're happy as an atheist , so be it. Peace.

At some time in my young life, at a time I do not remember I must have chosen.. but I do not remember ever seriously considering the option of God being real.. just as I suppose many christians and people of other faiths have never seriously questioned the opposite.. sadly I suppose, God has never revealed him/her/itself to me.. but really there is no need to feel sadness..not for me.. nothing happened to give me my outlook on God except that I used my logic and rationale and came to a different conclusion from you and millions of other religious people.. the way my parents raised me undoubtedly was a factor, but they have never imposed their athiesm on me.. but I do not dismiss the probability that their lack of belief will have had its effect.. just as mine will have on our children..

My partner as it happens, is far less convinced of the non existence of a God than I, and considers herself agnostic.. her agnosticism will also have its effect on our children... but as my parents did not impose their will on me, the development of faith or otherwise will be something that will or will not happen depending on how they see the world, and from what they glean, not just from us, but from all around them. So far the older child has shown no interest in religion and says she does not believe but who knows what is in store for her as she moves into puberty and beyond and what is really inside a young head? The younger is much too young to fully understand, not that anyone ever truly understands it all, but indoctrination into our points of view vis a vis God and religion is not an option... as with the older girl, time, understanding and life will help her decide what she does and does not believe and as far as we are able, our own lack of faith notwithstanding, that is what we wish for both her and her sister.. the older child knows we do not believe in God, but she also knows that we are no more infallible than the next person... she has been told categorically that if she should believe in God.. in whatever form and in whatever faith.. what we think is what we think.. what she thinks and believes and is what matters and our beliefs should be of no consequence.. and when her time comes and she gains understanding, the younger child will be told exactly the same thing and be accorded the same right and respect...

Finally, of all my wishes in life, for the world and all within it to find peace and tranquility is my deepest desire.. so the very last word of your post resonates a great deal and I thank you for that.. and return the wish in lorry loads..:)

[goldenfinger]

As to the OP of this thread he/she has a habit of making controversial remarks and then sitting back to watch the ensuing mayhem. I suggest we stop feeding his/her games.

Controversial,,all I did was to ask a rather simple question,,,what happen after that has nothing to do with me. Am I not allowed to ask what I want. This is the same shite religious people keep coming up with every time the can't find a logic answer,,,,always something wrong with "the other" people.
Don't care really what people believe, just don't think you'r right,,,just too many different religions who all claim to be right, and that is just not possible.

[elian]

Sometimes a catalyst is needed for growth, if goldenfinger hadn't started this thread I wouldn't have learned so much about who I am. Even though we don't all nod in agreement there is serious learning going on and that's still worthwhile.

[pepperjack]

Sometimes a catalyst is needed for growth, if goldenfinger hadn't started this thread I wouldn't have learned so much about who I am. Even though we don't all nod in agreement there is serious learning going on and that's still worthwhile.

I came away from this feeling the same way Elian.

[Darkside2009]

An individual cannot ensure his/her generation does anything, for the simple reason that the individual does not have any control over their generation.

Any individual can at best seek to persuade, either by word, or by the example of their own life in the hope that others may emulate.

Your Father has/had no more control over his generation and what they thought and did, than you do over your generation. It is manifestly unfair and unreasonable for you to blame him for something over which he has no control, hence my suggestion that you apologise to him for apportioning blame as you did.

No Father would ask his adult daughter to apologise for the unjust, offence and hurt she has caused him any more than a Mother would ask her adult son. They will just swallow the pain caused and suffer in silence, blaming themselves for raising such an unreasonable and insensitive child.

If anything had happened to him on the way home, your last memory of him would be of the harsh words you said to him. They would haunt you for the rest of your life. We do not tell those we love, that we love them, often enough. It is those words they need to hear, not recriminations for something over which they have no control.

[goldenfinger]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKFTO-Zmzfk&feature=related

Uplifting indeed.

People of faith should seek "faith healers" and not medical trained doctors to remove their brain tumors, that would save a lot of money, but ofcause, without their double standard, they cannot survive.

[void()]

An individual cannot ensure his/her generation does anything, for the simple reason that the individual does not have any control over their generation.

Any individual can at best seek to persuade, either by word, or by the example of their own life in the hope that others may emulate.

Your Father has/had no more control over his generation and what they thought and did, than you do over your generation. It is manifestly unfair and unreasonable for you to blame him for something over which he has no control, hence my suggestion that you apologise to him for apportioning blame as you did.

No Father would ask his adult daughter to apologise for the unjust, offence and hurt she has caused him any more than a Mother would ask her adult son. They will just swallow the pain caused and suffer in silence, blaming themselves for raising such an unreasonable and insensitive child.

If anything had happened to him on the way home, your last memory of him would be of the harsh words you said to him. They would haunt you for the rest of your life. We do not tell those we love, that we love them, often enough. It is those words they need to hear, not recriminations for something over which they have no control.

No, I do not quote this to cajole Fran. I quote it because in my humble opinion truer words are few and far between. Thanks Darkside. You seem to have posited what I think many of us see as the ideal, regardless of religion or non-religion.

[darkeyes]

An individual cannot ensure his/her generation does anything, for the simple reason that the individual does not have any control over their generation.

Any individual can at best seek to persuade, either by word, or by the example of their own life in the hope that others may emulate.

Your Father has/had no more control over his generation and what they thought and did, than you do over your generation. It is manifestly unfair and unreasonable for you to blame him for something over which he has no control, hence my suggestion that you apologise to him for apportioning blame as you did.

No Father would ask his adult daughter to apologise for the unjust, offence and hurt she has caused him any more than a Mother would ask her adult son. They will just swallow the pain caused and suffer in silence, blaming themselves for raising such an unreasonable and insensitive child.

If anything had happened to him on the way home, your last memory of him would be of the harsh words you said to him. They would haunt you for the rest of your life. We do not tell those we love, that we love them, often enough. It is those words they need to hear, not recriminations for something over which they have no control.

I can and do hold generations responsible for their actions or inactions at any particular time in history.. if I will credit them, which I have done, and will do again, I have the right to view their activities and take a considered view as to their demerit in the historical record.. just as I have the right to do so my own generation. Individuals.. my father included cannot escape his responsibility for the failures of his generation any more than I will be able to for the failures of mine..

Blame is perhaps too strong a word, but if we hold people responsible for failure we do attach a certain amount of blame.

You still fail to recognise the relationship between father and daughter.. indeed father and children.. he would not ask any of us to apologise for what we believe and what we say on any political or indeed any other issue of principle because that is how he raised us to be. He was raised by his father in exactly the same way.

There are times to apologise and times when it is not necessary and the time to which you refer it was deemed not necessary.. it is how our relationship works. His often harsh words about my own and my children's generation I have often felt it necessary to take him to task.. but being opinions he sincerely believes, it is not for me to demand an apology from him.. there are exceptions to this unwritten rule at such times for all of us. For instance if we become unruly, run off at the mouth (me? never) and say personal, hurtful things, or are shown to be in error and factually incorrect, but fundamentally it is how it is... on matters of principle.. apologies are not considered necessary.

..and thank you for your concern for me old man and me feelings, but on that you need have no fear... as a family we live by the kiss and make up principle.. we always have. Never let the sun go down on wrath.. my dad, and his dad when he was still alive (the second most important lovely man in my life) drummed that into us all from the days when we were truly horrible and spoilt little brats, when we would hold grudges for the simplest and most innocuous slights.. yes, I was the worst and would pout and be huffy for days. But we grow up and mature.

The sun did not go down on our wrath that day, but as always, even after the most heated discussion, my dad tootled home having shared a lot of love and affection (and a great deal of mutual mickey taking), a cup of coffee and a toasted tea cake with 4 of the people he loves most in this world.:)

[elian]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKFTO-Zmzfk&feature=related

Uplifting indeed.

People of faith should seek "faith healers" and not medical trained doctors to remove their brain tumors, that would save a lot of money, but ofcause, without their double standard, they cannot survive.

I guess then that you have never been close to death, suicidal with no hope in the world and no feeling that anyone at all gives a damn about you... THAT is what FAITH is about goldenfinger...the ability to keep on, keeping on - even when in the face of everything you KNOW, life seems unbearable.

I understand that some people take it to extremes but I really wish you'd give the rest of us a break. I think humans need both FAITH and REASON to survive and live a healthy and productive life to their full potential. But as I've said before, I think the mistake comes when we follow either one blindly and sometimes that is what people who believe in "Faith Healers" do. ANYTHING taken to extremes can be unhealthy, "supernatural" or not

[void()]

I guess then that you have never been close to death, suicidal with no hope in the world and no feeling that anyone at all gives a damn about you... THAT is what FAITH is about goldenfinger...the ability to keep on, keeping on - even when in the face of everything you KNOW, life seems unbearable.

I understand that some people take it to extremes but I really wish you'd give the rest of us a break. I think humans need both FAITH and REASON to survive and live a healthy and productive life to their full potential. But as I've said before, I think the mistake comes when we follow either one blindly and sometimes that is what people who believe in "Faith Healers" do. ANYTHING taken to extremes can be unhealthy, "supernatural" or not

I agree with elian but use different terminology in doing so. I call faith by other names, hope, imagination, creativity to list a few. Elian's view of needing faith and reason translates into my view as presented by Neil Pert. Mr. Pert wrote a song entitled Hemispheres, in it, he expounds upon needing Love and Reason. Not much of stretch to call faith love, because even with all our scientific or religious understanding of love, it remains an enigmatic miracle at times and requires faith, is faith.

Beyond knowledge of needing these and admonishment to follow the Golden Rule, I think any religion needs no other purpose. Of course, one can garner these lessons as a secular humanitarian easily also. Goldy, fear not over being a 'rabble rouser', we all need to explore what we believe. Thank you for opening a circle to explore in.

[goldenfinger]

I guess then that you have never been close to death, suicidal with no hope in the world and no feeling that anyone at all gives a damn about you... THAT is what FAITH is about goldenfinger...the ability to keep on, keeping on - even when in the face of everything you KNOW, life seems unbearable.

I understand that some people take it to extremes but I really wish you'd give the rest of us a break. I think humans need both FAITH and REASON to survive and live a healthy and productive life to their full potential. But as I've said before, I think the mistake comes when we follow either one blindly and sometimes that is what people who believe in "Faith Healers" do. ANYTHING taken to extremes can be unhealthy, "supernatural" or not

NO, I have never been in that situation, never allowed myself to be,always trusted myself.
Go on, pick and choose what you want, but don't deny me my freedom of speech.

[goldenfinger]

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-6120032-504083.html?tag=re1.channel

[Darkside2009]

The Confederate General Jackson, got his nick-name, 'Stonewall' from his unflinching courage in the face of the enemy. He would as a matter of course be at the front of his men, sitting astride his horse, giving example and instilling courage into his men in the heat of battle.

In all this, he was an obvious and easy target for Federal troops to shoot at. He gained his courage from his faith in God. The belief that God would not take him before his appointed time.

Ironically, he lost his life when shot by a soldier from his own side who failed to recognise him in the poor light.

Martin Luther King Junior realised that he would probably be murdered for his views and his actions in persuading people during the American Civil Rights movement, yet he continued on because of his faith.

A German monk named Martin Luther nailed his views on Church Corruption to the door of the church, giving birth to the Protestant Reformation. All because he felt faith in God was being corrupted and abused, that the sale of indulgences was reducing faith to the level of an insurance policy. That as long as you paid the premiums you would get into Heaven.

This is not what faith in, and belief in God is all about.

The printing of the Bible in many languages helped many come to a direct relationship with God, without needing a priest as intermediary, and helped spread literacy.

Jehovah's Witnesses refuse blood transfusions, often to the point where it has cost them their lives, believing instead in their faith in God. They give a very reasoned view of why they refuse on their official web site, if you cared to do the research.

The Amish in American live their lives by their faith, they try to live simple lives unaffected by the blandishments of modern civilisation, that is their choice.

Doctors in hospitals everywhere realise that a positive mental attitude helps in recovery from illness. As anyone who suffers from depression can tell you, its absence can be quite debilitating.

Martyrs in history have gone to their deaths, often quite gruesome deaths, rather than surrender their faith. People such as Sir Thomas More, King Henry V111's Chancellor have given up positions of wealth and privilege when it clashed with their faith.

Faith in God is a wondrous thing, if you have it, you will know your life will be immeasurably poorer without it. If you do not have it, then no amount of sneering at those who do can help you understand the affect it has in their lives.

And no I don't suffer from a brain tumour, or any other kind of tumour but your words are indicative of your prejudice. It is something you will have to live with.

[goldenfinger]

Jehovah's Witnesses refuse blood transfusions, often to the point where it has cost them their lives, believing instead in their faith in God. They give a very reasoned view of why they refuse on their official web site, if you cared to do the research.

http://www.cftf.com/1914/index.html

http://4jehovah.org/jehovahs-witness-prophecy.php

And this one makes me laugh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igV3w-C9TSM&feature=related

Much more if YOU care to do some research


Faith in God is a wondrous thing, if you have it, you will know your life will be immeasurably poorer without it. If you do not have it, then no amount of sneering at those who do can help you understand the affect it has in their lives.

How can I be poorer without something I have never had in the first place?

And no I don't suffer from a brain tumour, or any other kind of tumour but your words are indicative of your prejudice. It is something you will have to live with.

Prejudice, yeah, but not any more then you are.

[elian]

NO, I have never been in that situation, never allowed myself to be,always trusted myself.
Go on, pick and choose what you want, but don't deny me my freedom of speech.

Okay, fair enough - I'm just saying that growing up as a teenager you don't think that I actually CHOSE to be bullied EVERY SINGLE DAY I was in high school?, you don't think that I CHOSE the drunk abusive boyfriends that my mom brought home? I certainly didn't CHOOSE to watch them beat her over the head with a cane multiple times, when you are eight years old you know what's right, but you're powerless to stop it. I certainly didn't CHOOSE to have my parents go attend parties with drugs and liquor and watch them stumble home and into bed..and I wasn't the same male role model that consistently made himself feel better by telling me "You're a worthless pussy who will never amount to anything." Is it any wonder that growing up I hated what I THOUGHT being a man was so much that I wanted to be anything but "a man" ?

Yeah, I trusted myself too, and ONLY myself, that is the only way I SURVIVED - but there is a difference in "surviving" life and actually "living" life. It has taken me YEARS to learn to trust people again, to undo the emotional barriers I put into place just so that I could survive.

I'm glad that you have the resolve to not let anything like that bother you, when other people keep shoving it in your face some of us aren't really that strong. Fire and brimstone really don't bother me, because I've already been through hell on Earth. You might think that after all of that I would be bitter. For a time I was very angry, bitter and spiteful but when my REAL dad passed away I learned that life is just too short to live out of anger. At the same time, when everyone i looked up to treated me like shit I had such strong self-loathing, add to that a sense of wanting unconditional love of a father figure and I also thought I was broken because I was "gay" - a still, small voice kept urging me on..without it I just wouldn't be here today. I am glad, because I am able to write this - to tell people that there is hope, that it doesn't have to extravagant but FAITH really does make a difference - every day I look for the good and usually i find it.

Believe me, I don't resent your words, I am really glad that you were strong enough to not have to go through what I did.

[Long Duck Dong]

a person that has faith and trust in god, is not on the street corner preaching, they is not in the church every sunday and knowing the words to every hymm in their heads, they are not decrying the evils of the world, according to the bible......

faith and trust in god, is a personal walk with god... and something that people hold dear to their hearts, they will not argue with you about god or their beliefs, or tell you that their way is right, your way is wrong....

yet when people talk about faith, they use religious doctrine and churches etc... as proof of faith......and proof of how faith is misplaced and in error......and that is a sign of ignorance.....

we have faith in people everyday... from the police, to the teachers, to the doctors, to our own partners.....but faith is so simplistic, so basic, that most people have no idea that they have faith.... cos they believe its their right that makes things go right and happen the way they happen.......

faith is a belief in what is beyond our control.... the simple things to the major things, the basic to the complex...... and even if its misplaced faith in healing as has been pointed out, it doesn't mean that the faith is wrong.... as faith in the medical system has been shown many times, to not work either.....

people that ridicule faith, are often the ones that feel the need to be in control of everything, allowing nothing to go to chance... cos if you are not in control, you have faith that it will not all go wrong..... even if you deny having faith.....

[goldenfinger]

10 months ago, we befriended an ex-JW. He has attempted suicide once, one of his two sons, twice, all with Jehovah God's blessing, that was the god they were raised to believe in.
Personally, I was raised for the first 20 years of my life in Denmark, a country never invaded by the roman empire, and therefor not been forced to believe in god or die as was the case with all other countries they invaded.
Scandinavia has the highest procent of Atheist in the world, but the lowest rate of sex crimes,,go figure,,

[goldenfinger]

Okay, fair enough - I'm just saying that growing up as a teenager you don't think that I actually CHOSE to be bullied EVERY SINGLE DAY I was in high school?, you don't think that I CHOSE the drunk abusive boyfriends that my mom brought home? I certainly didn't CHOOSE to watch them beat her over the head with a cane multiple times, when you are eight years old you know what's right, but you're powerless to stop it. I certainly didn't CHOOSE to have my parents go attend parties with drugs and liquor and watch them stumble home and into bed..and I wasn't the same male role model that consistently made himself feel better by telling me "You're a worthless pussy who will never amount to anything." Is it any wonder that growing up I hated what I THOUGHT being a man was so much that I wanted to be anything but "a man" ?

Yeah, I trusted myself too, and ONLY myself, that is the only way I SURVIVED - but there is a difference in "surviving" life and actually "living" life. It has taken me YEARS to learn to trust people again, to undo the emotional barriers I put into place just so that I could survive.

I'm glad that you have the resolve to not let anything like that bother you, when other people keep shoving it in your face some of us aren't really that strong. Fire and brimstone really don't bother me, because I've already been through hell on Earth. You might think that after all of that I would be bitter. For a time I was very angry, bitter and spiteful but when my REAL dad passed away I learned that life is just too short to live out of anger. At the same time, when everyone i looked up to treated me like shit I had such strong self-loathing, add to that a sense of wanting unconditional love of a father figure and I also thought I was broken because I was "gay" - a still, small voice kept urging me on..without it I just wouldn't be here today. I am glad, because I am able to write this - to tell people that there is hope, that it doesn't have to extravagant but FAITH really does make a difference - every day I look for the good and usually i find it.

Believe me, I don't resent your words, I am really glad that you were strong enough to not have to go through what I did.

I'm sorry to read about your story, but too typical from your part of the world.

Just for your info, homosexuality was legalized by peoples vote way back in 1933, same sex union in 1989 in Denmark. Few parents has to be ashamed if their son or daughter is gay, they will not be disowned or shunned. Problem with religion is what other people say and believe .

Faith without action= 0

I have great faith in the Lottery, don't buy tickets, but still has faith that some day I will win the big one..:bigrin:

[darkeyes]

Martyrs in history have gone to their deaths, often quite gruesome deaths, rather than surrender their faith. People such as Sir Thomas More, King Henry V111's Chancellor have given up positions of wealth and privilege when it clashed with their faith.

Faith in God is a wondrous thing, if you have it, you will know your life will be immeasurably poorer without it. If you do not have it, then no amount of sneering at those who do can help you understand the affect it has in their lives.

And no I don't suffer from a brain tumour, or any other kind of tumour but your words are indicative of your prejudice. It is something you will have to live with.

Without going into the specifics some of those martyrs, such as Sir Thomas More may have have been martyred for their faith, but they themselves were hardly paragons of tolerance and virtue when it came to people of different faiths, or at least in his case a diffferent version of the same faith, but strictly speaking that isn't the point..

..one thing that you should know, and it's deeply buried somewhere in the history of these forums, is that I was born one of two twins. It is something I was unaware of until several years ago.. my brother died but I survived... but only just.. I was a weakly baby, and for several days it was a bit touch and go. When I found out about this the thought of God never entered my head..

Having also suffered from cancer of the breast, I will admit to great fear for my own future as such a tumour inevitably shall bring to the victim..yet I never thought of God in this.. or when I was successfully operated on... it was my kismet.. what will be..

..and when recently I was laid pretty low with a virus which did not exactly threaten my life, but it did make me feel like death because I was very very ill, God played no part in my considerations..

..I do not sneer at those who believe in God whatever some may think.. but I am hardly the poorer for not believing myself.. I can see why those who lose their belief may feel bereft and that there is a void which that loss will create, but having never believed that hole does not exist within me. If it was suddenly proven to me that God exists such a revelation itself could prove quite as life shattering to me, because of a realisation that everything I have believed all my life was a lie and am not sure it would have on me quite the positive effect that most would expect... but I will live with it quietly confident that I will never find out whether you or I are right in what we believe.. even after death..

You may not think so Darkside, but there is a hint of sneering in your own post which betrays your own prejudice.. and prejudice is such an interesting word.. usually used negatively to mean a biased view taken in the absence of all the facts... when it comes to belief in God, omnipotent reality or fantastic invention, all the facts is something we shall never have.. we are all prejudiced when it comes to belief in God... the trick is not to allow that prejudice to make us so bitter and twisted that we cannot live in peace with our fellow human beings or look down on them as if they are something unpleasant we have stood on in the street.....

Belief, whether in God or no God is a personal thing to us all and because it is a matter of faith which cannot be proven one way or the other, we should just enjoy the argument, share each others experiences and live in such a manner that we can be of benefit to each other by better understanding just what each of us are about.. and using that understanding in as positive a manner as we can to help us live better and at peace with one other.. not to tear lumps from each other with hatred and contempt..

[Hephaestion]

.......... I was raised for the first 20 years of my life in Denmark, a country never invaded by the roman empire, and therefor not been forced to believe in god or die as was the case with all other countries they invaded.

........Scandinavia has the highest procent of Atheist in the world, but the lowest rate of sex crimes,,go figure,,


a) Dat's the usurper 'ROMAN' catolicism yer's talkin about. An interesting comment. In the Orthodox south east of Europe, Christians were too busy surviving. 'Would you like to become a Muslim or would you like a scimitar up the bum?'

b) Too cold and / or SAD making effort too much?

.

[void()]

"Faith in God is a wondrous thing, if you have it, you will know your life will be immeasurably poorer without it. If you do not have it, then no amount of sneering at those who do can help you understand the affect it has in their lives."

"Faith in God is a wondrous thing, if you have it, you will know your life will be immeasurably poorer without it. "

"Faith in God is a wondrous thing, if you have it."

That much is an opinion of one professing having faith in God. I am glad you have that faith. Glad you have chosen your path. I will not persuade you from your path no matter what is said here. Guess what? I am not even attempting to dissuade your faith in God, even if you think I am.

What do I gain for you becoming a non-believer? I have established since there is no belief in your God, there is no belief in your Devil either. This eliminates you saying my gain would be your soul for an alleged Satanic master. I have no such being as no belief in it exists.

"You will know your life will be immeasurably poorer without it.(faith in God)"

Again, here is another opinion. I actually find life richer without needing to bow down before any alter. Yes, I can admit there are issues which cause adversity. I doubt you live completely free of adversity yourself. Adversity is part of basic human nature, it exists, we all deal with it.

Can it make our lives unbearable at times? Sure it can. It can also help provide more robust and fuller living experiences as well. The trick lies in how one approaches and reacts to adversity. This is something I have been learning for the past few years. One can see trouble as just more of the same, trouble. Or one may consider the trouble an opportunity to learn how to work through whatever is there.

That is called being adaptable by the way. Adaptability is a key trait of evolution and survival, another is persistence. I understand your faith as persistence. Conversely, one choosing to continue doing the same thing and incurring the same results yet expecting different ones, is the definition of insanity. Go ahead cling to prayer and faith. There's an adage about a mountain which helps me extrapolate a view here. "God can move mountains, if you'll swing the pick and toil with the shovel."

I grew tired of having the same results platted up to reasonable, logical questions. "Keep asking, He'll answer." So, far He does not respond. Or I get told not to blaspheme lest God hate me. He made me what I am supposedly, I'm part of him, does that mean He'll hate himself? And I find way too many contradictions, different interpretations, various meanings for any of it to be of practical use. Don't get me wrong, I do find some use within Biblical texts. But those bits are too few and far between or found elsewhere as well for me to give the Bible much merit.

"If you do not have it (faith in God), then no amount of sneering at those who do can help you understand the affect it has in their lives."

A third opinion here, although a point taken. Hopefully, I have not 'sneered' at anyone having faith in God. The intention in my postings in this thread have been to converse respectfully. I have stumbled a few times. Others have stumbled as well. We are human beings talking about an idea. Ideas are truly wild creatures, as is communication. We do not have full mastery over either one to be honest. In levity I could suggest you ask God to bring us that via this thread. But I will not as it seems you hold no quarter for levity.

It is a shame people take opinions as facts and try debating them as such with great pomp and circumstance. Well, hold fast to your opinion. I have one too. We have discussed both here, and I think quite far too long, so, let us agree to disagree and be done. No one wins nor loses.

[void()]

elian,

First let me say I love and miss you. Second let me tell you I respect you and your way of living in all its forms. This is not directed at you but at those whom do take extremes. Can you see (http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showpost.php?p=212170&postcount=233) what happens when we offer a break? You know yourself I am the farthest from militant, nor do I proselytize. You also know I avoid proper Atheism because it too can be a religion.

Even so, when a person tries being civil and continues having stuff like the mentioned post thrown in their faces it does cause distaste. No, you did not post it. I do not want apology from you or the poster. You are not responsible for them. Besides, I have said all I needed and an apology would fall short. Please try not thinking any less of me if I am a bit more distant. It is not you, nor me, it's both and neither one. I do still love you and always will.

Take care of yourself, honey.

[Darkside2009]

My remarks were addressed to Golden, I was trying to explain the effects of Faith in a person's life by giving examples.

As I've said before in these forums, as far as I'm concerned you can believe in God or not as you wish. It is your personal choice which particular path you take in life, whether it be Atheist, Agnostic, Pagan or whatever. It is your life to decide as you see fit.

For myself, I have chosen a path of Faith in and Belief in God, that does not mean I will sit here like a coconut whilst people throw insults at my beliefs. They must expect me to defend them.

I do not attack other people's beliefs, I expect the same regard for mine. If Golden says he has no belief in God, fine, but why then does he raise the matter so frequently in his sneering fashion. Check his previous threads.

I do not, and have never said that one cannot live a life, endure hardship, illness, bereavement without a belief in God. Many do just that. I have said that my life is richer and happier in terms of fulfilment since I became a Christian, than it was before. I have my previous life to compare it with. Other Christians will tell you the same thing. If they did not feel this way there would be no point in being a Christian.

It is difficult to describe the effects of faith in one's life unless you have experienced it yourself, hence my attempt at using examples to show how important it was in the lives of those examples.

I have stated in previous threads, that I believe people are multi-faceted, we are not defined by any one aspect of our personality, all those various facets go to make up the whole person. Faith is a large facet in my life, but I do have others. Others are composed differently, of different facets that are important to them, I do not deny them that, they have their own choices to make. I respect their choices, in their own lives, I expect the same curtesy shown to me and my choices.

As to Jehovah's Witnesses, they are at liberty to refuse any medical treatment, just the same as an Atheist or an Agnostic can refuse any medical treatment. The latter don't get sneered at for refusing any treatment, why should the JW? Many Atheists and Agnostics take their own lives whilst the balance of their mind is disturbed, are Jehovah's Witnesses supposed to be immune from mental illness?

I am not a member of the Jehovah's Witness church, but from what I have read on their stance on blood transfusions, they give the example of hepatitis which can be transmitted in the blood. At one time there was thought to be only strains A and B which could be screened for, then strain C was discovered, which had hitherto been unknown.

So they choose not to court infection by blood borne products that may as yet be undetectable by current medical knowledge. I would say that was their own choice to make, their bodies, their decision.

By the way the Romans never invaded Ireland, but we still have lots of Christians here, we even managed to export a few. I've never been to Denmark but I'm pretty sure there are Christians there too. All countries and societies have their faults just as individuals do, I'm sure Denmark is not immune from this.

[Long Duck Dong]

just a interesting side note... the basis of satanism and satanic belief, is that there is no god... you are your own * god* you control your destiny, you answer to yourself, there is no higher power......and satan is not a being that is or can be worshipped.....and you have to remember that like many other faiths, there is more than one version of satanism.... there is the type that do worship satan, and those that do not

Atheism is so close to satanism ( some forms ), in reasoning and mindset, that if you remove the name of satan from satanism, its atheism in practice.....

interesting that even in a atheism state, a person is still in a sense, practising a aspect of a faith and belief system.....as they have faith in their beliefs that there is no being to have faith and belief in.......

we are so distant from each other, that we are nearly twins in many aspects....lol

[elian]

I'm sorry to read about your story, but too typical from your part of the world.

Just for your info, homosexuality was legalized by peoples vote way back in 1933, same sex union in 1989 in Denmark. Few parents has to be ashamed if their son or daughter is gay, they will not be disowned or shunned. Problem with religion is what other people say and believe .

Faith without action= 0

I have great faith in the Lottery, don't buy tickets, but still has faith that some day I will win the big one..:bigrin:

The Scandinavian countries are wonderful in some respects, including an enlightened view of sexuality...I could only dream of not having to feel ashamed of who I was growing up..that must have been reassuring to know you are loved no matter what.

[pepperjack]

I guess then that you have never been close to death, suicidal with no hope in the world and no feeling that anyone at all gives a damn about you... THAT is what FAITH is about goldenfinger...the ability to keep on, keeping on - even when in the face of everything you KNOW, life seems unbearable.

I understand that some people take it to extremes but I really wish you'd give the rest of us a break. I think humans need both FAITH and REASON to survive and live a healthy and productive life to their full potential. But as I've said before, I think the mistake comes when we follow either one blindly and sometimes that is what people who believe in "Faith Healers" do. ANYTHING taken to extremes can be unhealthy, "supernatural" or not

I've been close to death quite a few times Elian, once even being pronounced clinically dead and then revived and I agree w/u that those experiences are part of the foundation of my faith. I reflect on occassion; And as I told u previously, I've experienced spiritual phenomena; I've had incredible life experiences that have convinced me God is real, difficult to fathom, but spirit,as the Bible says; and I've heard His voice, and it is "a still small voice" at times, a barely audible whisper which nevertheless penetrates all of one's presently conscious thoughts and overrides any ambient noise at the time! Just this past week-end, I received a confirmation during the celebration of the Martin Luther King Memorial of something He told me once, that , "He lives in the souls of all men"! Now, if these are figments of my imagination, and maybe , according to some, I'm a nut case, then why am I such a productive, effective,problem solving employee wherever I work?

[sammie19]

just a interesting side note... the basis of satanism and satanic belief, is that there is no god... you are your own * god* you control your destiny, you answer to yourself, there is no higher power......and satan is not a being that is or can be worshipped.....and you have to remember that like many other faiths, there is more than one version of satanism.... there is the type that do worship satan, and those that do not

Atheism is so close to satanism ( some forms ), in reasoning and mindset, that if you remove the name of satan from satanism, its atheism in practice.....




LDD, you can't say that without explaining that claim. I know nothing of satanism but to make such an inflammatory statement begs the question why was it made?

Most athiests I know, remove the word God or Jesus from their beliefs and it is more like Christianity except the very few I know who were brought up within other cultures and religions.

[elian]

Well sammie, since he brought it up I'll only say that I've studied a little bit of each faith just to learn what they are about and my impression of "satanism" is that it is the religion of "human nature".

I'm not sure my Atheist friends would agree with LDD's theory that the two are related or similar. I can kind of see his line of thinking but I think most Atheists will associate satanism with the worship of Satan and tell you that they believe in Satan about as much as they believe in God..as indeed Fran has reiterated many times here.

I'll only say again that I love ALL of my friends as long as they are causing no serious harm to others, the thing that hurts me the most is when people absolutely flatly refuse to get along..and so far, with 200+ replies this thread has managed to stay together..that's a pretty good run.

Speaking of loving others getting along I seem to have developed an affinity for watching MF couples in certain positions really enjoying themselves...ooh darn..damn hormones!

[elian]

I've been close to death quite a few times Elian, once even being pronounced clinically dead and then revived and I agree w/u that those experiences are part of the foundation of my faith. I reflect on occassion; And as I told u previously, I've experienced spiritual phenomena; I've had incredible life experiences that have convinced me God is real, difficult to fathom, but spirit,as the Bible says; and I've heard His voice, and it is "a still small voice" at times, a barely audible whisper which nevertheless penetrates all of one's presently conscious thoughts and overrides any ambient noise at the time! Just this past week-end, I received a confirmation during the celebration of the Martin Luther King Memorial of something He told me once, that , "He lives in the souls of all men"! Now, if these are figments of my imagination, and maybe , according to some, I'm a nut case, then why am I such a productive, effective,problem solving employee wherever I work?

I often wondered if some of what I experienced mentally is simply the brain trying any trick it can to survive..after all, more than anything life has a way of wanting to survive..

I read Goldenfinger's response and I started to wonder if religion DOES have that sort of generational impact that child abuse has - creating people so dissatisfied with themselves that they keep repeating a cycle of self-loathing and perpetuate that on to their children by the same cultural influence. After all the main message of most mainstream churches ends up being "we aren't good enough". I was actually really disturbed by that idea..but I'm sure that I am just focusing on the bad aspects and not the WHOLE picture. When people in recovery have nothing else to reach for they still have hope.

I mentioned it to a guide in a dream last night and he basically said that ultimately I only appear a few thousand times in a few hundred thousand..not sure if I got the math right there - yes, think "quantum leap" - other words, that whether I had religion the way they practice in the United States, or had "no religion" in Demark the way goldenfinger puts it.. my impact on the overall timeline in that respect really is about the same. He's never used those type of words before but I think it's an elegant and efficient way to put it considering the difficulty in communicating with something that's "not there".

Having said that I know that I would have been a lot happier if I would have had a big brother or some other role model that encouraged me and made me feel loved no matter what I was going through. Of course, I probably had those people all around me, and indeed I did have some wonderful teachers, ministers and friends..the only thing with being "gay" is that if you are afraid to come out then you are isolated by your own choosing. If my parents had really KNOWN about it maybe things would have been different - but I needed them so much in that time of my life that I just couldn't take the chance.

The only other chuckle I'll leave you with this morning is that one time I did go to the Corporate Christian church over the hill for a "religious diversity" class so thought I better buy a Bible. Well, since I now actually had a Bible in the house God quoted me a scripture number to read..wish I could remember the number now but it was an interesting scripture about human vs. God controlling life. Of course this is the SAME God who when I prayed for help making a decision made a point of saying - "Since you don't want me to CONTROL your life I'm not going to TELL you what you should do.." - eventually he got his point across. I think he's willing to work with people, as long as their general idea of the world ultimately fits in with his - he is loving council to me but he isn't above letting me make my own mistakes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AL9nD-VfrA

[Hephaestion]

1) Not sure that I accept LDD's suggestion of Satan and Satanism. It's quite clear in all of the religions that mention the name that he was / is an embodiment who challenges good in all of its manifestations. This is rather than the implication offered which implies that there is an intrinsic malevolence in mankind, which sounds awfully like a certain doctrine's 'Original Sin'.

2) Interesting that when one Googles Satan one is offered the Spanish bank Santander as relevant - what did I tell you?

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