Narcotics - stuff the science

[darkeyes]

The war against drugs is being lost.. people have their lives ruined, and people die every day because of narcotics.. I have very particular views on drugs, their misuse and their illegality.. I am not here, at least not today, going to argue for legalising drugs in my country or anywhere else but I do question something I spotted in this morning's Guardian..

This... http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/dec/05/government-scientific-advice-drugs-policy

What an awful decision and if implemented it tells me one thing.. that the British government cares not one whit about the science of drugs, but merely how to become even more draconian about fighting their supply distribution and use.. people are to become secondary to dogma.. they are no longer going to have the advisory committee on drugs with a single scientist as a member. Now I do not think scientists are the be all and end all, but they do have an important role to play in the implentation of any drugs policy. When it comes to drugs, governments of all persuasions have a brilliant track record of ignoring science which does not meet with their prejudices, and sacking such scientists is not unknown. Not all such scientists are charlatans, but that is irrelevant really.. for now it appears science is to play no part whatever in government thinking when it comes to narcotics and the war which rages over them around the world.

As some may know, my partner is an addict.. of heroin as it so happens.. she no longer uses and has not since she was in her late teens, but I have seen the destruction that illegal narcotics does to the lives of many.. I see it in the streets, pubs and clubs oof my home city every day of the week and it is tragic.. what this decision tells me is that my government is about to cotninue and even harden up on the old failed remedies of the past and present... there will be no imaginative change which may help us in the fight against the crime barons and suppliers, the cutting and shite that is put into narcotics which costs lives.. I do have very firm views about how best to proceed but I know that most in my country and others have closed their mind to them.. my government is about to, in my view, make a failed policy an even greater failure because it intends no longer to listen to those whose job it is to know the effects of narcotics on human beings, the effects of impure often laced with rat poison and other lethal cocktailed narcotics on human beings... and I ask myself, why??

[Gay2Bi]

That is a terrible policy decision, and as you said, the consequences of sustaining a losing war on drugs are vast. The fact that they propose cutting the people who actually know what these drugs do out of the loop is mind-boggling, but sadly, not really surprising given the history of anti-drug legislation in both of our countries.

For the record, I don't drink, don't smoke, and don't do drugs (except by prescription), but I firmly believe that the current approach to dealing with drugs is not the right one. It's more supply-side economics at work - interfere with the supply (according to the theory) and the demand will go away. Unfortunately, in the real world, the people who want the drugs find ways to get them, but they take many more risks to do so (not the least of which is intentional contamination); the only people who seem to benefit from the arrangement are the drug dealers - and the demogogues.

[void()]

I quit using pot about five years ago. All it did for me was allow for relaxation.
Now, it seems I need relaxation and de-stressing. Ironic, eh?

Not saying pot is the be all end all drug. But if it were legal in the States, doubt you'd find folks drinking or smoking tobacco. You may even see a decline in use of the 'heavy' stuff.

IMO, don't see anything wrong in responsible pot use. And yes I know there are plenty whom would 'smoke themselves stupid', heck I might even. :) In those five years away though, I've not had withdraw symptoms. Yes I might have a rough day and think "gee, be nice to go home and toke a bowl", but that comes then goes.

Pot never got me anywhere. But then again I didn't use it to get anywhere. And I wasn't violent, nasty, self destructive on pot. I just got all easy going and mellow. Time played tricks on me but it does that even when I'm sober.

"Only been ten minutes? Damn, thought we'd talked for an hour."

So my idea is legalize pot in the states. I'm not the only one sharing that opinion. Some of us think it might even end a drug war. Oh but wait, the governments profit on any war. Awe fuck me running. Nah, they won't end the war.

[Hephaestion]

Perhaps our government will use what they have used elsewhere to guide them. The procedure involves joining hands and calling for guidance from ghosts in the dark.

Well if God can speak to a President of the USA then maybe it will work?

[Realist]

Void,

It don't think it'd end the drug war, but it'd certainly release a lot of police to look for the really bad stuff, though. Compared to crack and some of the others, pot's nothing!

I don't smoke it, but I'm for legalizing it.

Hep,

Anyone can talk to God...but has anyone heard from HIM?

[Long Duck Dong]

its got a lot to do with you can advise people until you turn blue in the face, it makes no difference to the fact that its the police and customs officers that have to do all the dangerous work

its a bit like the * lets all sit around and talk about the war of drugs and how it should be dealt with *..... sure talk all you want, but talking is not action.....

you mention kate, being a addict.... and I will say, what helped kate the most, the experts that draw a large salary and do paperwork.... or the support network around her....

I too am a former addict and alcoholic.... I came clear on my own, after endless offers of help from people that had no fuckin idea about drugs and alcohol issues, they merely have degrees and certs.... and no experience.....

I am the type of person that believes if you are going to make a difference, you do with with people that know what they are dealing with, they understand the issues and problems,.....

things like heroin and cocaine need to be cut, cos a pure dose can kill a person..... the suppliers know it, the cops know it.... having a scientist paid 100k to say that heroin and cocaine is too potent in a uncut state, is not doing anything other than costing 100k .......

[Loveinlife]

I'm sure there is a lot more that science can tell us about the drugs that have such an impact on our society, but I'm not sure why the US hasn't legalized or at least federally decriminalized pot. It is literally the only drug that we can't prove to be physically addictive, but we can prove that it provides benefits. I agree that people would probably smoke themselves stupid if it were legalized, but it's safer and possibly more effective than prosac. I personally think that getting pot legalized would be a big help in the "war against drugs" because it would provide a "healthy" alternative.

[DuckiesDarling]

Okay technically when you refer to Narcotics you are referring to Ophoids you are talking about Heroin, Opium, Cocaine not really marijuana per se.

Now the debate over legalising or not is an old one. Legalise it, legislate distribution, tax the hell out of it, control it.

Now as the sister of someone addicted to meth I hate drugs. I hate what they have done to my family, some of the results are so heartwrenching I won't post them here as they are my private hell to deal with.

But the point of Fran's thread was the removal of scientists from an advisory panel. As has been noted there wasn't a whole lot that they could do to stop people from using drugs just by advising. Here in the states they had a very short presentation, I'll try to find a clip on youtube,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nl5gBJGnaXs.

Now it was scary for kids watching it, it was effective in scaring them, but not effective enough to keep them from taking that first hit. Unfortunately, the first hit killed quite a few. That was still not a deterrant. There is not a damned thing in the world that will stop someone from making or obtaining drugs if they really want them.

And it won't be the scientists who failed to stop them, it will simply be the fact that drugs are a need some people's bodies cannot deny.

[Hephaestion]

Void,

It don't think it'd end the drug war, but it'd certainly release a lot of police to look for the really bad stuff, though. Compared to crack and some of the others, pot's nothing!

I don't smoke it, but I'm for legalizing it.

Hep,

Anyone can talk to God...but has anyone heard from HIM?


"...Well if God can speak to a President of the USA then maybe it will work?..."

Apparently GWB heard from God regularly.


The logic behind the British government's actions is strange. It would seem that science is to be disgarded. The leading lines form the article given by Darkeyes say it all

"...Former Liberal Democrat MP Evan Harris – a campaigner for evidence-based policy – says the government is 'ill-advised to hack away at science advisory structures'....

.....Ministers will not be required to seek the advice of scientists when making drug classification policy in future, under new government proposals...."

The government would appear to be avoiding the old problem of 'great theories assassinated by ugly facts'

[12voltman59]

This decision sounds like the politicos in the UK want to be free to make drug policies free from anything but purely politically driven decision making----looks like that same game being played here more than ever too.

With such a decision---for politicos--it will be a case of "don't confuse me with any sort of facts--my mind is made up" with the upshot being----those in office will no doubt make the laws even more draconian in order to show voters just "how tough on crime" they are without considering anything other than that bottom line as to what they think will either get them elected or re-elected.

I am fully convinced--that just like the failed effort prohibition of alcohol was here in the US in the early 20th century--trying to limit drug usage via criminal laws is simply a fool's game and actually the policy of making drug use illegal is far more destructive to society in so many ways than is drug use by itself.

[darkeyes]

This decision sounds like the politicos in the UK want to be free to make drug policies free from anything but purely politically driven decision making----looks like that same game being played here more than ever too.

With such a decision---for politicos--it will be a case of "don't confuse me with any sort of facts--my mind is made up" with the upshot being----those in office will no doubt make the laws even more draconian in order to show voters just "how tough on crime" they are without considering anything other than that bottom line as to what they think will either get them elected or re-elected.

I am fully convinced--that just like the failed effort prohibition of alcohol was here in the US in the early 20th century--trying to limit drug usage via criminal laws is simply a fool's game and actually the policy of making drug use illegal is far more destructive to society in so many ways than is drug use by itself.

This is the reply which most concisely and accurately reflects me own view... government attitude to drugs and drug taking is to become more draconian and the so called war against drugs will cost lives.

There is no simple solution to the problem, even legalising will cause problems and, like tobacco and alcohol, and even legal medicinal drugs, will inevitably cost lives.. but at least legalisation will create a safer (only safer, for no drug can ever be absolutely safe) supply and police and the justice system, the intelligence services, health services, governments, militaries, exchequers will be, as with the repeal of US prohibition, almost at a stroke, released from fruitless, destructive, prohibitively expensive and time consuming activities which have produced no progress in this war.. these drugs exist, and they will be produced and supplied whether or not they are legal.. it is a war, like prohibition that cannot and will not be won. However, governments can bring off a huge victory against organised crime by legalisation, and the revenues provided used to provide the services needed in society to deal with the problems which, like alcohol and tobacco, two incredibly destructive drugs themselves, by making narcotics legal, undoubtedly will produce. Keeping narcotics illegal is not working. That is the crux of the matter. It produces huge social problems and a massive amount of crime, both petty and major. Legalisation may not be the only answer.. but it is AN answer.. short of magicking away every organism which can produce some kind of narcotic, I can think of no other. What the British government is doing, by deciding not to listen to the science of drugs, which is the message it is putting out, is saying is that whatever the truth of the matter, science plays no part in the war against drugs and it will continue and harden the stance which has so abysmally failed at such immensely high and tragic a cost to humanity.

It is probably true that addicts will still take drugs, but at least legally supplied they will be of a much safer and less lethal variety, and much of the poverty among addicts can be reduced because they will be supplied by the state, or more likely by private and possibly some public compaines at reasonable cost and not on some back street, or in a club loo by some seedy bastard who cares not a jot about the devastation brought upon vulnerable human beings.. and we are all that..

Whole countries are almost in thrall to organised crime, and very dangerous places indeed whether or not one is an addict.. Mexico is a case in point, Columbia yet another, and lets not forget Afghanistan...legalisation can begin to redress this balance by a sea change in our attitude to drugs and how they are produced and supplied. To do as has been done is no option..

I did not know Kate when she used heroin. But I do know people who are habitual users of heroin, crack, crystal meth and other drugs and see whenever I go into the city the effects of those substances.. I see what present government and previous government policy does and the destruction drugs and government policy creates.. my city was once known as the drug capital of Europe.. it is an incredibly beautiful place, but like all cities, no matter how beautiful it has huge scars and a great deal of ugliness.. there are huge housing schemes which are deprived and impoverished where most people are unemployed and where everyone is affected by the supply of narcotics and the unenlightened oppressive attitudes of government and the authorities.. very dangerous places indeed... drug users are of no import to them.. they tell us neither are the dealers.. they want big fish.. well, they dont very often get the big fish. Concentration is on the user and the small fry.. but the big fish, through their dealers and suppliers get theirs.. easily.. and we are all on their hit list and a lot of us will fall...

[DuckiesDarling]

Caught this today on Vanguard, it's worth watching.


http://www.slashcontrol.com/free-tv-shows/vanguard/1879547288-the-oxycontin-express

[Long Duck Dong]

legalise it and become like holland...... oh wait.... isn't holland looking at changing the law regarding pot.... and restrict it to local usage by local people only......

here in NZ, they are moving to suppress smoking tobacco and looking at perferably a smoke free country by 2025 ...... with the support of their advisors and scientists etc etc......

for people like me that know the risks of smoking tobacco, thats dangerous, very dangerous, as smoking tobacco for me, is a form of placebo.... and without it, I would end up using drugs and alcohol again as a form of mind numbing substance, just so I can keep my sanity......

now in researching this issue with the narcotics, I noticed that the UK was told that the worst drug in the uk, was in fact alcohol... not narcotics..... the same as here in NZ.....

its a freely available, legal and very very dangerous substance.... yet, its not being touched by the UK or the NZ governments....... and there are more people with alcohol issues in NZ, then there are people with drug use issues....

we only have to look at what we have made legal, to realise that making pot legal, would create a bigger mess..... as you combine alcohol and drugs in a person,..... you create a person that is perception impaired, and too mellow to notice it...... then they get behind the wheel of a car.......

and before anybody wants to tell me that I am misinformed..... at 16 I was so drunk, I crashed a car, I lost my partner and 6 of my friends..... and while I am fully responsible and to blame for my actions that night, I was off my face on a legal substance........

and people think that legalising pot will make things safer ??? ... lol.... yeah about as safe as people are cos alcohol is legal......

[darkeyes]

I dont demur in many ways from what u say Duckie.. legalisation is certainly no panacea.. I have said that and have said that lives will be lost because of it.. but compared to the alternative, which is what we have now, it is both a realistic and sensible approach to a problem which is not going to go away.

With whole countries in thrall to the both crime barons and to those groups we call terrorist, the present situation is untenable and is only going to get worse. I do not llike hard drugs, although I do admit here and now to using cannabis, but not abusing it. Hard drugs are destructive not just because it kills people, but because of the terror they bring to whole communities, and the massive expense we waste in fighting a futile war against those who produce supply, distribute and deal in them. We are losing..and we will continue to lose until such times as we can convince the world that it does not have to be. Yet people will always be drawn to what they should not have, and this in itself will ensure that hard drugs will always be in demand.

It is not simply the cost in deaths Duckie.. it is in the costs of lives ruined, families destroyed, communities living in terror, the unpredictability of the addicts actions to get her or his next fix. It is the cost of fighting a losing war world wide against those who run the operationst to produce, fighting those who supply and distribute and deal. And who for the most part cops it? The user.. it is the user who is criminalised, becomes unemployable, ends up in jail, who lives a desperate life to feed an evil addiction. The cost to health services around the world and to the health of many because of the crap that drugs are cut with to make them "affordable" and "usable" is both appalling and prohibitive.. and of course the cruelties and miseries suffered by wives and children of addicts, whole families of addicts, and communities adds to that cost..

Hundreds of billions every year are spent world wide on this war againts drugs.. and it all goes down the pan.. soldiers, police, addicts, producers, suppliers, dealers, relations of addicts, bystanders die every year in their thousands because of illegality.. organised crime and what we call terror groups are financed in many instances solely by the production of illegal narcotics and the craving in the west especially for their products.. yes alcohol and tobacco are bigger killers in our countries.. but I would argue that the cost to our societies overall is less because they do not create quite the fear and overall destruction to our societies does.

The lesson of prohibition of alcohol should have been learned.. it has not been.. I no more want to see hard narcotics in our society than you.. but I do believe we have to change an old fashioned view of how to deal with this issue.. nothing is or can be a panacea until people are convinced that use of narcotics is too destructive to risk.. but people say that about many things... I wish I could believe that keeping them illegal was working. but the evidence of my eyes and my intimate knowledge of my own city alone tells me differently..

This is an article I read some time ago and is worth the read..

http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/guest-commentary/legalising-narcotics-would-be-the-lesser-of-two-evils-1.1049872

.. and Darlin' darlin'? Soz but your link doesnt work over heere.. for American eyes only I'm afraid...:)

[DuckiesDarling]

My link was to an episode of Vanguard, a show on Current TV called the Oxycontin Express and the trend of most pills coming from "pain management" centers in Broward County, Florida. People travel all over and pay cash to clinics who hire retired doctors with active DEA numbers to write prescriptions for cash. Major money. Couple statements in it got me, one was "well given a choice between heroin and oxy an addict will take oxy cause it's made by a pharmacy and they know what's in it" the other was "they are not doctors, they are drug dealers with degrees"

[void()]

"and people think that legalising pot will make things safer ??? ... lol.... yeah about as safe as people are cos alcohol is legal......"

Fair enough point. But there are more than enough counter points as well.

Consider someone undergoing chemotherapy who can not eat and suffers unbearable pain due to the therapy. Pot helps both symptoms, it increases a desire to eat along with triggering substances in the body to aid in proper digestion, they'll keep the food down. And as a bonus it releases anti-pain chemicals in the brain, maybe not a full 100% but anything to dull the edge can go a long way. That's only one possible safe and responsible use that may indeed have medical and scientific backing.

My brother has issues with a bad back. He's on disability because he not stand or sit for too long without a nerve in his spine attempting to kill him with pain. He's been on every possible prescription cocktail, oxy, morphine, prozac, xanex and on it goes. He finally kicked percocet because it gave him daunting hallucinations and direly suicidal feelings. He's got a little girl, someone to live for. No doctor ever told him to give up pot, in fact most encouraged its use because it is relatively safe compared to all the other 'shit'.

And in my own case, I got brought off a dangerously near lethal acid trip using pot. I was wanting to wash myself down a drain. Didn't see myself worth anything at that point. Someone had screwed up the mix in that batch, too much ajax or something. Always dangerous making your own medicines when Big Bro keeps the info locked up and does the same to a user.

Like I said, I don't think pot is the be all, end all. But I can see where it would make a difference being legal to use. For one thing it might let a few of us who are just naturally 'high strung' or 'wrapped too tight' to relax, to be able to be social and functional. Hell, I can't go into Wally World for over two minutes without massive panic attacks. And no I can't figure out why exactly, nor can any of the so called experts. I do know most people would probably be all sorts of happy with my station in life, yet I constantly need more. I need to be better, have better.

No I don't care for media glitz. But life requires money and you have to sell out your soul for it, put up with bosses that are pricks, 'get along' with co-workers who would put a knife into your back any chance they got, just for a buck or less. If that picture looks okay to you and happiness is that for ya, more power bud. I'd rather not deal, sorry.

Of course, even breathing air is a drug when you get down to it. And yes pot is safer than booze, it doesn't effect brain cells the way booze does. Booze dries your brain out. Pot just tells your brain to release happy chemicals to let your brain swim for a few hours. And while it swims, you can relax. There's no bugs in that water, man. Nobody can listen in, nobody can talk in on you, either. Lots of folks would be happy having just that and not bother booze or hard drugs. You'd eliminate a lot of this one hit, instant death shit, or bullets hitting innocents in a mad war for profit.

So yes, I think pot is a safer and saner alternative. I do understand your point about people though. That's why you got designated baby sitting when everybody tokes up. If somebody gets violent on pot, it's not the pot doing it. But it does happen, along with people getting just a little funky. So, have a bud watch out for ya.

Bah, I ramble too much.

[Long Duck Dong]

slips arms around void..... you understand.... you definitely understand......

would rather walk with a honest man than a hero

[void()]

slips arms around void..... you understand.... you definitely understand......

would rather walk with a honest man than a hero

Void hugs.

Well I'm a little of both, when taught to be a hero it wasn't at the expense of honesty or honor. Personally I know there's never an alone no matter how bleak a wasteland gets. Even if it's just those nutty imaginary friends, least a person's got somebody. :)

Reminds me of an adage though. "Rather die on the gallows with sinners than live for eternity with the saints." Adhering to purest virtue causes blindness, creates true monsters. Not sure there is a big G, but if so, all that done in his name sure gotta hurt the man.

I'll stick with asking, "save me from or for what?" That's a power I can see, feel. Nice having balance, never easy though. Wish the morons in suits could figure it all out. Still think we need to bring back Lennon, or Morrison. Lately Billy Idol has been helping but I don't know, not a thing.

And there I am rambling, 'gin.

[12voltman59]

My link was to an episode of Vanguard, a show on Current TV called the Oxycontin Express and the trend of most pills coming from "pain management" centers in Broward County, Florida. People travel all over and pay cash to clinics who hire retired doctors with active DEA numbers to write prescriptions for cash. Major money. Couple statements in it got me, one was "well given a choice between heroin and oxy an addict will take oxy cause it's made by a pharmacy and they know what's in it" the other was "they are not doctors, they are drug dealers with degrees"

It is now apparently the case that the biggest growth now in drug addiction is not to the illicit drugs like pot, coke and even Meth--but to the ones made by the "legal" drug industry like the "Oxy" drugs.

It just goes to show that for whatever reason----human beings seem to have this ingrained need to dope themselves up.

It does surely seem that drug addiction could very likely be part and parcel of our genetic makeup---it is certainly not something that is a criminal problem---at the very least--it is a matter of people's "spirits" being broken or at least damaged to the point they feel they need to either numb themselves or try to capture good feelings, as fleeting as drug induced ones can be.

Of course---drug induced good or numb feelings are fleeting and before long--all there is for drug abusers is the drug itself as they go deeper into the cycle of drug addiction.

[DuckiesDarling]

It is now apparently the case that the biggest growth now in drug addiction is not to the illicit drugs like pot, coke and even Meth--but to the ones made by the "legal" drug industry like the "Oxy" drugs.

It just goes to show that for whatever reason----human beings seem to have this ingrained need to dope themselves up.

It does surely seem that drug addiction could very likely be part and parcel of our genetic makeup---it is certainly not something that is a criminal problem---at the very least--it is a matter of people's "spirits" being broken or at least damaged to the point they feel they need to either numb themselves or try to capture good feelings, as fleeting as drug induced ones can be.

Of course---drug induced good or numb feelings are fleeting and before long--all there is for drug abusers is the drug itself as they go deeper into the cycle of drug addiction.

I agree with most of what you say, but an addict was on there and they asked him how he felt after he took a hit of oxy. She asked him if he felt good, he said no I feel normal. I feel like how you feel when you've never used drugs. That coming off the drugs makes you feel so low that you have to do drugs to get back level. It's no longer about getting high, it's about staying level.

[Long Duck Dong]

ok, as many people know, I have dysthimia... its a form of depression.....

many people have the understanding that using pot makes depressed people like us, high.... it doesn't..... if we wanted a rush, we would use meth...... what we want is stability, a calm in the ocean, a couple of hours away from our own minds while being in control of our own minds.....

I used to be prescribed tegretol.html (http://www.drugs.com/tegretol.html) and many people think that being on prescribed meds was good..... if you read the side effects, the tegretol ( 800mg a day ) got me to the point I was dammed near a walking zombie.....

I burnt my hand accidently one day, after 8 months on the tegretol and all i could really do was stand in the kitchen watching the flames dance over my hand as my reactions were impaired due to the level of tegretol in my system.....

pot never gave me that issue...... and yes, there are times I long to return to the days of using pot..... fuck the minor side effects.... it was and still is the most effective pain relief and anti psych I know of.......

but what would I know about using drugs as a person that suffers from depression.... I am only the person that has walked that path.... those that have not used drugs and sat on the sidelines watching, tend to believe they know better than the people using the drugs.......

there are 2 types of people in this world... the * experts * and the people that have the experience.... yet its the *experts* that are always the most vocal about any situation.... strange that......

[void()]

"I do not use any drugs but I have seen people get very paranoid and go into horrible panic attacks because of smoking pot. No their herb was not laced with PCP either.

Then there are people who are pretty much psychologically addicted to herb and they can't do things like go about their life or even eat food without getting high first.

No these people are not on chemo or HIV drugs. They're just potheads."

1. Paranoia -

Occurs from being forced to do something 'illegal', possibly morally wrong, and having someone mention police. And you see in the media the jackboots literally walking over innocents that just happen to be in the wrong place, but oh darn the bullet still hit them. You see your government not care about the people whom it ought to be for, by. Then while relaxing, you get that edge again. It isn't the pot but the situational awareness which kicks in.

The paranoia fades too when you realize the Feds really don't bother simple users much. Just don't try dealing, you take business from them when you do, after all. And yes, I know of at least three Feds in my vicinity that do. One was a Marshall, no less. And no I was not on anything when he admitted it. Nor was he, aside from a dynamite blow job some nameless void gave. <whistles innocently>

2. Potheads -

I was quite close to becoming one, although retained functionality. We used tobacco cigarettes as 'steering wheels'. Sort of like using coffee against cigs, caffeine a stimulant, nicotine a depressant. Milk of course (any dairy product), instant buzz kill.

By the by, I use euphemisms, metaphors, parables, turns of phrase, puns a great deal. I'm quiet versed in vernacular and oft stun folks whilst elucidating posits, or just get them lost by walking in a straight line. By 'washing myself down the drain', I meant committing suicide by lethal dosage, which is indeed possible.

Perhaps it isn't made with ajax but after reading what does (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20061217152303AAmUkdE) go into it, does it matter? All I know is it was botched run which did leave an impression.

By retaining functionality, I could work in a fast paced burger joint with great ease, play video games, read books, code programs. I was functional, just relaxed and peaceful. Any inner critics were sated and physically I felt stronger, healthier. That may well be just a side effect. Even so my body felt great. But yes, I too have witnessed pot whores. incidentally, doesn't this return us back to personal responsibility and crutches?

The pot (crutch) doesn't really make you do or not do anything. Same as the argument of being bisexual giving you free pass to lie and cheat to a spouse, sorry no dice. You make the choice. Here, let me toss a movie scene into the fray to simplify the code of morality. ---

Movie: Willow

scene: Wizard asks apprentice where magic lies.
Apprentice points to the wizard. The wizard laughs. "Sure?"

"No, but I know you are powerful and wise in using magic."

"And you aren't?"

"No ... er .."

The wizards grin.

Of course this could be the zen fisherman koan. "When will the fishes get out the net, master?"

"When will you escape your own?"

Hopefully I'm not just ranting but helping. Yes, I paraphrased from memory.
Now I close, you make me tired. You also keep making me repeat myself. I know a few possible types who do that. Satisfaction is mine.

[elian]

Something said here about political motivation compelled me to respond..

I like spirituality, I like faith, and i like technology but I can't help but see ever so slightly that the "wonderful" technology we have these days has managed to convince people that they no longer have to worry about the way the world works. They watch "reality" TV, where such an artificial sense of urgency is created that people become emotionally beside themselves and cannot even show common decency to each other anymore.

People claim that science is wonderful but then go on ignoring evidence and hard facts directly in front of their face. Here in the US I think we've gotten past the "science will save us" mentality that permeated the post depression and cold war period. Now I suppose people just don't know what to expect with all of the tension in the environment. They stop striving to understand, better the human condition and community around them. Stop caring what life will be like in the next 50 or 100 years - because why? It is too painful? We do not live, but simply survive - we can and must do better.

I have never used drugs or alcohol to any great extent - drugs have taken my childhood and my family away from me. Sure, at times I feel the temptation to want to escape the pressures of life but my experiences in youth, and the thought of watching someone completely zone out, die, go through withdrawal cuts me to the core of my being.

I guess I walk a strange line in a lot of ways. I'm all for technology when it is smart, makes good sense and is used in the right way. I'm also for science - for people who question and seek and want to know the TRUE answer - not just the one that makes them sleep better at night. At the same time if I didn't have faith in some things I can't see, I can't quantify, I can't price - I would be dead to the world.

At 2AM, when I wonder if I am good enough, strong enough and worthy enough to keep going it's not the latest gadget or the fanciest car that keeps me going.

Faith, hope, love and occasionally anger are my motivation. I continue to exist, even if it's only to tell the story of my experience to others.

To say that when you have nothing to live for, it DOES get better.

To say that you can't OWN love nor can you OWN happiness but you CAN share them.

That you may at times feel lonely, but you are never ALONE and maybe a few other small things it has taken me a lifetime to learn.

In the short time I have been on this planet life hasn't always been roses and I don't think it was ever meant to be. We are all here to face and overcome challenges, or at least to gain experience and understanding. Still, it's not all bad - there is beauty all around if you just look for it - it just doesn't advertise as well as evil. I don't regret any of it.

As for the "war on drugs" - I don't know which of any of it is worse - the dealers, the users or the enforcement. It is NOT a simple problem with an easy answer.

I once wrote a long paper about people always trying to fix the symptom instead of the underlying problem. Politicians are especially prone to that sort of fallacy because since they have to keep worrying about getting reelected they spend so much of their time worrying about outward image and saving face.

[elian]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDGuPp1np4o
http://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz_on_our_loss_of_wisdom.html

[void()]

"Politicians are especially prone to that sort of fallacy because since they have to keep worrying about getting reelected they spend so much of their time worrying about outward image and saving face."

Aristotle states everything is political. That noted I'll retire further public discourse on this subject. It is for the best.